Hello All,

This is my first post and i really need some advice. Please bear with me as it is a bit complicated and long.

We have been together 22 years, and married for 18. We have two children aged 12 and 14. My wife had a difficult relationship with her family, particularly her mom who was unsupportive and emotionally abusive when she was growing up.

Our first 9 years together were very happy. We had our two children and decided to move to her family's city to be near her family and share their first grandchildren. My wife was also hopeful of a better relationship with her mom. We were there 9 years and things did not get better between her and her mom. I got on quite well with her family but always tried to support my wife.

We left when I found a teaching job in Asia. All our problems began when I was skyping her family to keep in touch. My wife and I had a big fight because my wife did not want to stay in touch with them. She was angry that I had stayed in touch without asking her first. Fair enough. I decided to write a letter to her mom telling her mom that she had caused my wife a lot of pain. Her dad wrote back defending his wife and my wife was upset, and we cut ties with them after that. That was 4 years ago, but unfortunately, her father also had cancer, and died just over a year ago. They still weren't talking at that point. So my wife was not invited to the funeral and was obviously upset.

-Hope you are still with me as it gets worse-

My family(sister and mom) were also in touch with my wife's family. They had always got on well. My wife found out they were in touch and demanded that my family break ties with her family at the same time we cut ties. When my father-in-law died my sister sent an email to my wife saying she was sorry that to hear he had died. My wife was furious that my sister and mom had stayed in touch with her mom over a number of years when we were estranged. she sent an angry email to my sister.



As a consequence my wife said that my family was not welcome in our house. In the last year this has escalated to the point that I was not allowed to send or receive Christmas presents for our boys, from my mom or sister. Mywife and I have had numerous bad arguments in the past year, almost every month. To make things worse in the last 6 months, I promised to cut ties with my sister, but was secretly emailing her about exchanging Christmas gifts. When my wife found my emails, she was furious. I promised to cut all ties with my sister which I have since December. As an added complication my mom has cancer, so I have been defending my mom while trying to remain loyal to my wife. Then last week I tried skyping my mom because I haven't spoken to her for a number of months. My wife found out, and stormed out of the house. I haven't seen her since. She feels I have lied to her, which I have(But only about communicating to my family). But I feel I have been bullied into cutting ties with my own family when I dont feel they had done anything so bad.

Please help with some advice.

Thanks for reading this far.

Lost and confused..

The main issue I see here is your dishonesty regarding your feelings about this issue and your continued contact with extended family (lack of Radical Honesty). You should be using POJA to find a solution that you and your spouse are BOTH enthusiastic about, not going behind her back to maintain relationships with people she finds offensive.

Perhaps you would both benefit by emailing or calling the radio show with this question, and getting direct help from the Harley's.

UW, I agree with you about the lack of RH and POJA being the proximate causes of this situation, but let's back up a bit.

Wifey wants no longer to deal with HER family. Okay, hubby should probably understand that and accede to that request.

Hubby's family is in touch with wifey's family and wifey decides she can veto that connection? Say WHAT? And when hubby insists on maintaining contact with HIS family, while they continue to contact HER family, she puts her foot down on his contact with his family???

THIS WAS WHERE RH SHOULD HAVE BEEN APPLIED!

"No, dear, taking the step of abandoning my family due to your problem of dealing with your own is not an action to which I will enthusiastically agree, and until we have that agreement, that cutoff will not happen. Your move."

There comes a point when disrupting normal living is the action-to-be-negotiated. Else, a similarly irrational spouse could say (reductio ad absurdium, here), "Your eating (breathing?) is bothering me. I insist you stop until we can enthusiastically agree to have you continue!"

It also seems that wacko-wifey in this case has a whole lot more malfunctioning than has yet been diagnosed!

Agree. But ultimately if Z had practiced O&H about his feelings regarding the no contact rules, and they had used POJA to find a reasonable solution that they were both enthusiastic about, this would not be an issue.

It is not our place to decide that hubby should 'understand and accede' to any request, whether it is her family or his.

Also, perhaps there are reasons wacko-wifey has for wanting to go no contact with HIS family that he has not adequately addressed.

Perhaps his family involved themselves in the drama and toxicity of her family, therefore carrying her families toxitity further into their life and marriage. All conjecture, I am just saying there may be more to the story.

Relationships with extended family are NOT 'normal living' and do not equate to eating and breathing. It is frequently advised that when extended family has a negative and toxic impact on a marital union, no contact until they do NOT have that impact is appropriate.

Relationships with extended family are NOT 'normal living'...

I could not disagree more, and your position is what leads to abused spouses (usually women, btw) being cut off from family support when they would most need it.

This one is going to call for some SERIOUS POJA. It doesn�t sound like this was opened for negotiation due a lack of radical honesty (and probably her rage) and as was stated that�s the crux of the problem. No POJA and No PORH.

Is there anything Z can do to help his wife feel enthusiastic about him speaking to his family members? If they negotiate (correctly) and there isn�t then he stops communication.

I believe the one thing I read from Z�s post that bothers me and I would assume is bothering him is his W's behavior. She insists that other people comply with her demands and when they don�t she berates them in an angry email (family members that he probably loves and respects). This has got to be a huge LB for Z and as such is something he should bring up in their talks (more PORH). If my W behaved in such an offensive manner I would definitely feel my attraction to her decrease. Heck I�d probably run for the hills (after first trying to get her some therapy and good meds). Maybe Z likes that fire that she has. It scares the crap out of me.

Thanks to everyone replying.
I realise reading comments that I made a big mistake not standing up and applying POJA.
The more I see marriage, the more I realise it is like archeology. You carefully scrape away a layer and you find more hidden beneath the surface.
I should clarify that our first 9 years were not as simple as I thought. My wife was not applyng POJA. She was escaping from her abusive mother when I met her, and found it difficult to stand up to anyone. We made some decisions, particularly buying a house, that she much later told me she didn't really want to buy. We left the house in the care of my brother, who was complicit in us losing it and geting into debt. I realised after this what I was doing, and tried to change the way I did things with my wife.
In the last 4 years my wife has become increasingly strident and angry about NOT being a doormat. It is like she is making up for 30 years of being walked on. I have always tried to be respectful and kind but I realise now I wasn't providing the protection she needed in those years, particularly from her mom.
Mralias you said
"Is there anything Z can do to help his wife feel enthusiastic about him speaking to his family members? If they negotiate (correctly) and there isn�t then he stops communication. "
Did you mean that if I can't negotiate with her about speaking to my family that I stop communication. Did you mean stop communication with my family, or with her? I have cut ties with my sister already. But my mother has cancer, and cutting ties with her would probably kill her.
What really worries me is that my wife is much angrier now than she was 14 months ago, when her father died and my sister wrote the email. I am actually scared of applying POJA. One argument before Christmas she shoved me in her anger.
I should also point out that in between arguments we get on really well, we are affectionate and enjoy each others company. I still very much love her.
Many thanks for your advice.
Z

Have you read these (there are 4 of them). Tell us what you think.
Having Trouble with POJA #1

One argument before Christmas she shoved me in her anger.

If she resorts to physical violence again, you call the police. You have already written her that her self control has been deteriorating over the recent past. A "shove" will become a "strike", will become an "attack".....

Eventually, either she will do serious damage to you, or you will retaliate, and the bruises she suffers from your simple act of restraining her will be enough to have YOU arrested.

When my father-in-law died my sister sent an email to my wife saying she was sorry that to hear he had died...I have cut ties with my sister already.

Is the only reason you cut off communicating with your family-member that your wife demanded it because sister sent a note of condolence on your father-in-law's death? If so, you are enabling the irrational dictatorial impulses of a seriously misguided persona. But you see that now, as wifey has subsequently decided you cannot communicate with your seriously ill mother, who had no part in that initial "offense".

One of the things that spouses owe each other is the duty of "care". That includes measuring the spouse's behavior against reasonable standards.

Hi Everyone,

My wife will probably move to England if she gets the job she went there for.
I just received a 3 page email response to my requst for her to return to talk to the kids.

She is absolutely furious, angrier than ever. She feels betrayed by me and believes I did not put her before my family and her family. She should be first in everything. Is that true? Should you always put your spouse above everyone else? I think it is true that i did not support her enough with her parents. In fact it is obvious from the email she blames me for coming between her and her dad in the final years of his life. Is all of this revenge? I'm starting to think telling me to stop communicating with my family is payback. But she is taking no responsibility for any of this. That isn't right, surely?

She refuses to even sit down and explain to the kids our potential separation. I have the kids with me as they go to the school where I teach in Switzerland. The kids just think she is in England to look for work. But I have to tell them something soon as they will wonder where she is. What do I tell them?
Also I don't know whether I should tell my sister and mother we have separated?

Many thanks again for the help

Z

It is not normal for a mother to abandon her children. Is it possible that she is having an affair?

Did you ever report her physical abuse?

Has she ever received help for her anger?

Hi,
I read the letters on the POJA,
Letters 2 and 4 hit home.
In letter #2 " At first, I lied to her about what I was doing in an effort to enjoy myself and yet make her happy too" I certainly did this by going behind her back talking to my family. But I never really agreed in my heart with cutting ties with family so I was operating in bad faith.
In letter #4
"Decisions are often intentionally made to punish the other spouse for the last insensitive decision."
I think it was clear in her last email that she is now blaming me for her estrangement from her father at his death. And I do bear some blame for being culpable in their estrangement. I even think my wife might want me estranged from my mom when she dies, as she also has cancer.
As to the shoving, I never thought of it as abuse, just what happens when arguments get heated. But it has become part of my fear of having an argument.
Thanks again
Z

I think that there is not enough information to decide that Zebedee's wife is being cruel, neurotic, deranged and/or dictatorial in being angry with Z's family.

The words "disrespectful judgements" spring to mind.

I speak as someone who tried for a long time with H's family and H sat on the fence and let me hang while they hurt me and treated me disrespectfully. If H had listened to my increasing frustration and hurt many years ago and had told his family then that he expected them to be at a minimum polite and respectful towards me, then perhaps we would still have contact with them now.

Instead, he let things escalate until bridges were burnt on both sides.

It was only when I became extremely angry (and I wanted to shove him too quite a few times in our many heated arguments about his d****ed family) and wanted to leave the marriage that H finally started to listen and understand.

We have a good marriage now and both understand where we went wrong. But I am sure that if my H had described my behaviour to this forum about a year ago, you would have all thought I was being ridiculous and exaggerating - because that's what H thought at the time.

Yes, you should put your wife ahead of your family, Z. They are your family, not hers. You should both be practising the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement. Plus there's probably quite a lot of love busting going on on both sides that must be eliminated.

You would do well to get Love Busters, Z, and read it with your wife. Perhaps you could get her to post here too.

Hi Mirabelle,
Thanks for your honest comments
I think you have hit the crux of the problem. The things you say sound very similar to what my wife says. It all depends whether my mom and sister have been disrespectful to my wife. Can I list the things my wife says that are disrespectful.
1. Way back in 1997 my wife and mother arranged to go out. My mom didn't turn up. My wife was very upset and I asked my mom what happened and she said it was mix up. My wife brought that up again in yesterday's email.
2. In 2010 I emailed my mom and sister to break contact with wife's family because we weren't speaking to them.
3. There were hints that my Mother in law was sending letters to them and my mother was writing Christmas cards in response. My father-in-law had cancer and I think my mom felt for him.
4. In 2011 When my father-in-law died my sister wrote this email
"Forgot to say presume you
> have heard that XXXX has very sadly passed away. We
> were all very sad to hear the news off xxxx Regards
5. A few emails went between my sister and wife.
6. I asked my mom and sister to apologise a few months later
7. My sister wrote an apology amd my mom wrote a letter which was interpreted as defensive by my wife. I think my mom didn't really think she had done that much wrong.
In the end all this may be less relevant. In the last email my wife is starting to blame me for coming between her and her dad in his last years.

I have to also say that this has been made difficult because all of our communication has been via skype/email over the last 4/5 years with extended family. We have all lived in different countries.
May thanks for taking the time to help
Z

It doesn't matter whether you or I think that your mother and sister have been disrespectful to your wife. What matters is that your wife thinks they have been. You are committing a classic lovebuster here called Disrespectful Judgements.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html

You are trying to educate your wife what she SHOULD (in your eyes) be feeling. That is disrespectful and no doubt infuriates your wife.

Stop minimising your wife's feelings. You cannot POJA properly until both you and your wife eliminate lovebusters like this.

You should both drop the subject of your family for the time being and concentrate on building up your love for each other. This requires at least 20-25 hours a week of undivided time together - no kids, no TV, just you and your wife meeting each other's top four emotional needs.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.html


AS I said, just drop this issue for the time being. Your primary concern must be your wife and your marriage, which is in danger.

When you are both in love again, then you can work together on finding a solution about which you are both enthusiastic.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
I am really confused.

I read through the 'disrespectful judgements' page. As I fill that out I find that I feel my wife hitting a lot of 6 or 7's particularly on me being afraid to discuss issues and being ridiculed. I'm pretty sure she feels a similar way.
But how can we drop my family if I feel disrespected about wanting to stay in touch with them? I'm not asking my wife to be in contact with them any longer. I want to respect her needs, but if I cut ties with my family isn't that disrespecting my needs.
The only way I can see us dropping the subject of my family is if I cut ties with them. But when I started to do that last year I would wake up at 4am feeling sick with worry about my mom. My mom even sent 2 christmas cards to my kids but I hid them knowing it would make my wife furious. Surely I can put my wife first but still care for my mother?
Thanks,
Z

Here is what happened in Dr. Harley's own marriage.

No doubt you are both committing the lovebuster Disrespectful Judgements. But I can only tell YOU to stop DJing because only you are on the forum at this point. In any case, you should start fixing your marriage by eliminating your own lovebusters. They include Dishonesty (secret emailing to sister, hiding your mother's cards).

Your marriage is burning, Z. Yes, of course you can still care for your mother but you have repeatedly put your whole family ahead of your wife and now your wife's lovebank is drained and she is in deep conflict with you. It sounds like she's on the point of withdrawal and that this could lead to divorce. Don't worry about your mother for now, you have a much more dangerous problem right now.

Fill your wife's lovebank by meeting her needs. Make sure you do not drain whatever love credits you put in by lovebusting.

Ask her to come on the forum so that we can help you both.

You can also email Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce for free for advice. You will find that your problem is an extremely common one and that once you and your wife are in love again, you will be able to reach a solution that will make you both happy.

You should also read up on POJA

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8121_POJA_needs.html

It requires that you are BOTH enthusiastic and that both of your takers are satisfied. Getting there may require some lateral thinking: using MelodyLane's example, wife like Mexican but hates Chinese food, husband hates Mexican but likes Chinese, so they decide to go to a French restaurant instead.

There are also 2 violations of POJA, type A and type B. Type A is when you go ahead and do what you want despite your partner�s objections. This is much more damaging to your relationship than the Type B violation, which is that you cannot do what you want until you have gained your partner�s enthusiastic agreement, and so your desires are deferred.

By not contacting your family unless your wife agrees, you will suffer the type B violation. But that suffering is short-term and will end with no sequelae when you reach a POJA with your wife. However, if you continue with your type A violations (actively doing things behind your wife's back), you create terrible feelings of betrayal and hurt in your wife that will take years - if ever - to subside.