Let me un-babble your pastor's observation to MB terms; you two have not followed PoJA.

Learn to follow PoJA.

"Passive resistance" means "lack of enthusiastic agreement."


Go to the basic concepts, print out the article on PoJA.


Hand it to your wife.

The thing about these meetings is... It's a personnel matter now. We can't tell you anything other than he's been spoken to and we're dealing with it as a personnel matter. Go figure.

You know when your kids aren't being completely honest with you and you know it, but can't describe why you know it? Then, when they finally come clean, you "feel" the weight get lifted off of them. Well, I haven't felt that with WW yet and I have a suspicion that she has not been completely honest with me. I dont have the proof, just that gut feeling.

For example, my WW remembers everything. And I mean everything. She can tell you exactly when all of firsts were. First date, what we wore, where we ate, what songs we danced to. She remembers the date/time/place of our first kiss, the first night we spent together, hell, even the temperature it was when I proposed to her. When I ask her when the A started, sometime around early May. I'm like yeah, I need specifics and thats all I get. Then, when I confronted her about conversations with other men that were deleted from her phone, I get "I didnt want you to be mad" BS.

I got the book SAA and after 3 days she's read 24 pages. I mean, I couldn't put that thing down. I wanted to know everything that went wrong and what we had to do to fix it. I dont see much effort to get thru this from her. It feels like she's resisting me again because this is something that I want. She has today off so I'll see how she decides to spend it before I bring it up again. So far, she hasn't brought me a list of EPs either. If I put the list together, I'll just be trying to control her again. She has to do this to show me she's trying.

Met with my Pastor last night and worked through some issues that are keeping me from forgiving her. I need to get through that so I can think with a clear head. We made some really good progress and I feel really good today. I'm beginning to see her behavior more clearly and instead of getting mad I'm able to just deal with it, almost emotionless. Kind of like the drug addict that needs tough love.

HoldHerHand, thank you for the reminder. I will print the PoJA article and give it to her.

And yes, I'm going up the chain with the FD. I'm trying to find a lawyer that will help do this.

This is placating you so you go away.

This is old boy network protecting the OM.

This needs a work place exposure to all those above the Chief.

Also schedule a poly if you want honest answers and to keep her accountable. Post the the questions here for review.

This is called your GUT INSTINCT. Listen to it. TRUST it.

If I had listened to my gut instinct I would have saved myself a decade of lies. But I tried to rationalize myself through things, tell myself I needed PROOF, protect myself from the inevitable truth. Don't make the same mistake.

If your gut instinct is telling you she is lying to you, believe it.

I believe a polygraph was suggested. This is a tool many BS's have used to get the truth and start recovery with a fresh slate (including myself). You can usually get one done for around $400. Just the indication that you are planning to have your WS take one will likely get you a lot more information. I would highly, highly suggest it.

Here.
Polygraph Testing

This is a bad idea. She is still very foggy, and expecting her to make the right choices to protect your marriage at this point is going to fail.

This is not a list of things you are using to control her life. This a list of things you are requiring for YOU to stay married to a cheating spouse. For YOU to feel safe again. Remember, she needs to enter recovery understanding that YOU are going to create the parameters of the marriage that YOU will stay in, and she needs to decide if she is willing and able to give you that kind of a safe marriage.

Think of EP's as boundaries for yourself and your marriage, not as demands that are controlling her.

Are you familiar with what Dr Harley says about forgiveness?

I'm not completely aware of Dr Harley's view on forgiveness but here's mine. I believe that we need to forgive those that hurt us. I also believe that we need to do this before we can move forward because moving forward requires a clear head.

I DO NOT believe that this lets the person off the hook or provides for an environment where they can repeat their behavior. We cannot really move forward with all of the bitterness stored up inside and we can/do setup our partners with unwinable situations if we carry that stuff around.

For her to have a chance at meeting my EN, then I have to be willing to receive her efforts and encourage her. If I'm bitter and angry I will never do that.

Here's an article Dr. Harley wrote about forgiveness: Can't We Just Forgive & Forget?

What do you think about it?

You have the "tense" of forgiveness wrong.

You do not "award" forgiveness. WW must "earn" it.

"Earning" it requires full disclosure, (poly?), adequate safeguards (EPs), and adherence to a jointly committed plan of action (MB).

Other than that, you have the key point right. Until that forgiveness is in place (by being "earned", remember!) a couple will not have a relationship with a foundation to support better growth.

You want to be a "nice guy"! Please stop. Plan A is not based on being such a saint. It depends on the BS applying carrot when appropriate and stick when appropriate. A singular diet of carrot leads only to a fat, placid.....donkey!

IMO, forgiveness is a gift (not necessarily earned) but one that comes after repentance. Now, I believe repentance, in the case of an affair, comes from complete transparencey (honesty/confession of ones sins) and a changing of ones heart (turning from the direction of your sin to righteousness). If repentance is there, full disclosure, EPs and plan of action is in place. I think we're on the same page here. I'm not trying to be a nice guy... I'm trying to be a husband that forgives, even as Christ forgave me. His forgiveness depends on my repentance. Without it, its only permission to keep living the same life as before with a false sense of righteousness.

I'm trying to be a husband that forgives, even as Christ forgave me.

Yup, but, at least in my faith, the forgiveness of sins comes with the admonition of a demonstrated intention to change: Your sins are forgiven ye; go forth and sin no more! As in: I forgive you, WW, because you have been totally transparent about your prior infractions, and have established EPs to ensure you will sin no more!

And when Mehmet Ali Agca shot John Paul II, the Pontiff forgave him as Christ would have wanted - but even so, the bulletproof "Popemobile" was made mandatory for any future Papal excursions! EPs evidently extend even to the seat of Peter!

Exactly, repentance = go forth and sin no more

Exactly, repentance = go forth and sin no more

Shall we reopen here the theological debate as to whether the absolution spoken to a deceitful heart is of any value? Nah!

But....even the Church feels that the imposition of a "penance" is justified, as a condition of absolution. Penance = Truth, EP, JC.

Or would you maintain your ability to forgive exceeds that of His representatives? Or that your opinion of unconditional forgiveness is better-grounded than their penance-based model?

You have to understand wow that a lot of times when we hear "I am going to forgive" on here it is synonymous with brushing the A under the rug.

Your definition of forgiveness is irrelevant, as long as you understand that there must be a commitment to recovery, NC, full transparency, dedication to follow the EP's that YOU set as boundaries to your marriage, etc.

I don't think you have all of these things, therefore I feel like 'forgiveness' is a little bit premature. Don't you?

You currently have a WW who still sounds very foggy. You do not believe she is being honest with you, which means there could possibly still be contact and you do not have full transparency. It is clear that she does NOT have a commitment to recovery.

I would caution you about putting the cart before the horse here. Its like you are so excited to put this behind you that you are attempting to forgive an offense that is still being committed.

In reality, the words "I forgive you" sound noble and honorable, and they are.
What you must understand is those words are actually not necessary before a couple "moves forward", as you put it.

"I forgive you" does not mean any of the following:

I trust you.
I love you.
I feel loved by you.
I feel protected.
I no longer feel resentment.
I want a relationship with you.

Forgiving a debt means you no longer expect the debt to be paid.
Forgiving a wrong, or a hurt means you forfeit returning the wrong/hurt.

The important impediment you have to pay attention to during recovery after adultery is resentment, not a lack of forgiveness.

I wrote the following to a BW on a recovery thread.

NG, I'm not catholic so the only representative that I have is Jesus. I'm not sure where the Bible has a penance model. Jesus died for ME before I was born. My acceptance of that, vis-a-vie confession & repentance is all thats needed. For my wife also, yes?

UW, I can understand that thru posts on a forum, it can seem like I'm excited to put this behind me. Actually, in the beginning I was and admit to that. However, as you know, the process is not instantaneous. Yes, she is still foggy and has not committed to full recovery yet. She will NOT be let off the hook.

However, this question goes to the whole board. If she decides to part ways with me for any reason, is that cause not to forgive her A? At some point, this needs to be put behind me if I am going to have ANY healthy relationships in the future, including with my kids. If that is true, then how can forgiveness be tied to her performance?

More trickle truth last night. It looks like the A didn't start in May as was admitted to. The EA started Aug 2011 and the first kiss was Jan 2012 right after the fire dept. Christmas party. I dropped her off at the fire dept to pick up the duty vehicle and she saw him on the way home. Damn, I had just spent a great night with her at the party... I'm sure there's more and it will come out as time goes on.

I told her the trickle truth will kill our M more than the whole truth and nothing but the truth but she's still trying to protect herself.

After 4 days, she's only on page 41 of SAA. I told her I hit that within a couple of hours of getting the book. Anyway, I'm taking my oldest 2 DS skiing Thurs night & Friday in VT and she committed to do a lot of reading while I was gone. We'll see I guess.

I've exposed to my Manager in case he sees me on my phone a lot he'll know whats going on. He's been a great support over the last 2 days. He has a step D that is a heroin addict and has provided some good feedback on snooping etc.