Zhamila, despite the fact that she could have visitation, it won't be unsupervised because he is lining up babysitters:



Dr Harley tells abused females they HAVE to separate, he does not tell abused men they have to separate. That doesn't mean an abused male CAN'T separate if he sees fit. He has told some to separate and this poster has good valid reasons to do so.

No it is not "abusive." If you restrain someone from abusing you, you are protecting yourself, not abusing THEM. I "restrained" my first husband from hitting me and that was not abuse. My XH restrained me from hitting him and that was not "abuse."

We don't need to be telling this man he is abusive when he has been a victim and is in a state of crisis. He needs support, not to be told he has abused his wife for protecting himself.

My wife did not come in anyway so I think it's a moot point now.

Zhamila
-Restraining her had nothing to do with the violence and subsequent law enforcement fiasco. I haven't actually restrained her since the very earliest stages of our marriage. Instead I withdraw or verbally fight back. I've not laid a finger on her for over 4 years in restraint. The "false imprisonment" was actually a door that she slammed closed on me and it broke on my arm as I raised my hand to hold it open to continued to try arguing with her. Since she was closing a closet door AGAINST me it was clearly impossible that I was was doing anything to restrain her, but whatever. They didn't want justice: they just wanted order.
-I did say I was not uncomfortable with it. Posters subsequently changed my mind.
-She has LEGAL rights to visitation, yes. But she has chosen to forgo those rights. You are not getting that she is, at the moment, compliant.
-The disagreement was about the state of the house when I came home from work: extremely messy, 2 year old alone downstairs, pouring cheetos etc. on the floor, and perishable food sitting out on the counter spoiling, that sort of thing. I calmly (but coldly) confronted her on the condition I came home to, and she calmly challenged my physical masculinity, right to be there at all, and where I could shove my further complaints. Escalation ensued rapidly.

How I define abuse: physical or verbal angry attacks, or malicious mistreatment, designed to promote fear, belittle, and inflict psychological, emotional, or physical pain.

One time I gripped her wrists so hard (she was slapping me over and over while I was cornered in the spare room closet) that I caused some small bruises on her wrists. This was the last time I physically restrained her. Yes I could have gone to jail for that. But I am not abusive, sir.

For those who think verbal abuse is minor, watch this clip, and then imagine an autistic child witnessing verbal escalating abuse and tell me this is minor stuff.


In reading your original post, I know you did what you could to stop the escalation, BUT NEVER EVER leave your children with the monster again!

Children feel life-long consequences from this kind of abandonment. And unless you are a child who has witnessed this, you have no comprehension of how her abuse is hurting them, and likely a huge contributing factor to what you're going to have to deal with as a consequence.

If your wife is open, and your pastor is willing to help your wife process this significant reason for her to get help now, get the movie and when you get to the part where Waternoose demands Sulley show how it's done to the new hire class of monsters, while Boo is witnessing it. PAUSE the film at the zoom in on her face and discuss raised voices, sarcasm, and other aggression in the home. Frame by frame, move this movie forward so she gets the full effect of seeing someone you love SCREAM at someone else.

If your wife continues to minimize and excuse her behavior (your share about her apology show some minimizing which concerns me), even after this process with you and your pastor, and perhaps her anger management coach, I don't know if she'll do what it takes to get better.

When you have a disabled child that cannot process emotions, it twists up terribly inside and causes all sorts of complications.

The pattern must be broken. But next time you have to leave the home, call the pastor to come intervene while you also remove your children with you, if she won't leave. NEVER abandon your children in the middle of a monstrous outburst again.

I agree. That is not abusive and it is unfair to characterize it as such. I was also very abusive in my last marriage and there were several times my XH had to grab my wrists to stop me.

It really is a shame that more women are not arrested. In the radio clip that Zhamila posted, Dr Harley mentioned that 54% of the abuse cases that show up in ERs are men who were abusedd by women. Women are far more abusive than men.

The Sully clip is apropos in a way I hadn't connected before. Thank you, KaylaAndy.

The minimizing will be addressed and resolved to my satisfaction BEFORE any reconciliation occurs. It's going to be pretty darn clear that those outbursts will not happen.

In fairness, let me be clear that I shouted back at her with equal vehemence. While the words were different and not intended to harm but to bring her back "to the moment" (it did), my tone was disrespectful and sometimes sarcastic. Our little one does not have receptive language, so I am equally guilty of setting a terrifying example for him.

Actually, as I remember now, when I raised my voice he was actually upstairs and we were alone. It was later and the boys were shut outside in the backyard.

Even still, it doesn't mean I've never had an angry outburst in front of him. Just not this time.

What happened after this? You only say it escalated - what was said/done?

Sounds like two abusers...not just one. Confronting someone about a messy house is a demand. Shouting back with equal vehemence is an AO. And grabbing someone's wrists is an arrestable offense.

There is no excuse for abuse - regardless of what anyone else does - ever.

You need to clean up your side of the street. No more demands, disrespect, or anger...that's the MB way.

A complaint is a good thing so long as it is done respectfully. We need more context to understand how he presented his complaint.

PM you are here so we�re going to help you.

These are good things to consider. It is a good idea to make sure you are cleaning up your side of the street. Having a W with anger issues makes it even more important for you to remain calm, be respectful which will help her control herself. This is something that could be worked on if you aren't always behaving properly.



Agreed. PM something for you to work on.



The alternative being what? Cowering in the corner of a closet with your arms above your head while being pummeled?

If you�re cornered and the only escape is to harm the other person (i.e. knock the attacker back or down; throw some punches yourself, etc) then I don�t think restraint is a bad choice. Protecting yourself is job #1 so long as that is what is being done as far as restraint. If someone is swinging violently at you a strong restraint is the only thing that is going to be available to you in protecting yourself.


Agree 100%.

Zhamila, this is completely out of line. He was defending himself when he grabbed her wrists. It is not "abusive" to defend yourself from an abuser. His wife has physically assaulted him many times in the past.

I am very concerned about your posts and don't think they are in the least bit productive. This man knows he has to clean up his own behavior but accusing him of being "abusive" because he defended himself by grabbing her wrists is out of line. His wife is so abusive that he had to leave his home yesterday. We need to support him, not make wild accusations of "abuse." Every person has a right and responsibility to defend their own lives.

How about trying to help this poster? If you don't stop it, I will be reporting this to the moderators.

Every person has a right and responsibility to defend themselves from an assault. Even if that means brandishing a gun. To accuse someone of being "abusive" for defending themselves is ABUSIVE.

*************EDIT***************

They are. As I think you know ML, I was a 911 dispatcher. I cannot tell you how many time women have laughed about slapping their husbands in an argument and then ask the police to escort him from his home. Fortunately, those recordings are used in court. It's disgusting. Most men are ashamed to seek help.

It takes two to 'fight' but it takes one to abuse/assault.

I was amazed when I heard that more women assault men than vice versa! That is certainly not the impression we get in the media. Women are always portrayed as hapless victims and in truth, many of us are victimizers..

p.s. so glad to see you back, Alis! I missed your posts!

Zahmila...you have NO idea how common it is! I've had literally a hundred or more men I�ve had that their wife beat them. They can't tell anyone and have nowhere to turn. Today�s men are raised to not lay a hand in anger to a female, yet women are applauded for physically assaulting men. Watch any movie or tv! Men are considered an accessory to life and treated worse than the family pet. My wife has abused me for years. Just as Dr. Harley has said about men, I�m not scared of her and deflect/protect myself. At the same time I know there is a real possibility I may wake up with a knife to the chest one day�.Society sees men being abused as weak or he must have deserved it. Yes, I�m also including most counselors too!

You may want to look at the other side of the coin before buying into popular media!

I understand Z's concern, that it's important to really eliminate the love busters to give this marriage a chance to survive.


In the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation Guideline 1 is to Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe. Ground Rule #3 is

If you reach an impasse where you do not seem to be
getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting
to make demands, show disrespect, or become angry,
stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

It's really imperative not to continue a discussion when a person doesn't want to. I remember getting to a point with my ex where I had to lock a door in front of me because he wouldn't stop following me to continue arguments, which are AOs on both sides. I believe it would have been false imprisonment if he refused to allow me to close a door in the house like that to get away from continued arguing.

I am not saying that this justifies her verbal abuse and insults. I believe pm you are correct in following your gut and getting yourself away from those patterns. But I think you need to acknowledge your own AOs, too, so you can eliminate them, The back-of-the-chapter exercise in Love Busters is really good for that. Instead of escalating in the moment, you go off and write it down, and come back to it at a later time, knowing it will be addressed but saving your family from the escalation in the meantime.

Getting back to PM's specific situation....

You say she has agreed to leave the home. That was yesterday. Has she yet left? If not, will she leave today? Tomorrow? I'm of the opinion you been pat on the head, told, "Good boy!", and will see no further efforts from her.

Let us know when I'm wrong, okay?

Agreed!

And no one has argued that point; that was not the point of contention. We all agree and encourage him to stop lovebusters. However, we don't need to be accusing abuse victims of "abuse" for defending themselves from an assault. THAT was the issue. If a rape victim kicks her attacker off do we accuse her of "abuse?" Of course not.

My point is that we don't need to be adding insult to injury in a crisis situation. Nor is that fair to this poster.