The thing that might protect you in the future is a postnuptial agreement which states what will happen with your life and property when he chooses to be unfaithful again. If he wants to protect you he should be willing to find ways to sign it.

I want you to show him my comments because I am concerned about his bad habit(s)

Mel and I are seeing the same manifestations, but where she (charitably) labels them "habits", I would stay with "offensive choices".

All of these issues being addressed to LH are correct:

- No personal conversations with females.
- No lunch with any females and certainly no more phone calls with the former co-workers at your last school!
- I don't get why you asked about that old skank hoe? What was the point of that? That is a violation of extraordinary precautions to talk about skanky.
- That had to have hurt and scared your wife to death.
- When a married man has personal conversations in the workplace with other females, it signals that he is available. - He is usually viewed as a "workplace weasel," a guy who is available for action with a little attention.
- You have given off that persona for long time and it about destroyed your career, your marriage and your daughter's family.
- A man with good boundaries is pleasant and polite at work, but he doesn't have personal discussions with females at work.
- And I am concerned that you still have that motorcycle.

While they are CORRECT, being addressed to LH is ineffective. HE HAS BEEN HERE FOR MONTHS!! Even through osmosis, he has to have gathered that the items listed are intrinsic to the MB Program. HE KNOWS THE PROGRAM.

He just has no inclination (much less commitment) to follow it!

The key warning Mel gave him was this:

You can't afford that anymore.

But she and I cannot enforce the foreclosure on his overdue behavioral account that he can no longer afford. If you don't immediately see his actions for what they are, I worry that you'll not have the energy to slam the book "closed" on his treacherous semi-independent life.

I'm frustrated because what should be one of our happiest days (day after getting great job) is not living up to expectations.

Last night when we discussed the personal conversation with the hairdresser, he was defensive and made excuses, "We weren't alone that long. I didn't tell her she was looking good."

This morning he said he sees that having the conversation was stepping on a slippery slope. He said that he actually realized this last week when we initially talked about it. That he was only saying the excuses last night because he was agitated about the posts.

I don't know what to think.

I recognize and appreciate all the positive changes that he has made. He is working on a LOT of things at the same time, and I know he is committed and that it is a challenge for him.

I want to fine tune and make the boundary enforcement more proactive, rather than reactive. For example, he admitted that he would've continued to go to the hairdresser if I hadn't asked him to stop.

I am SO glad that he considered my feelings and agreed to stop without an argument. I just want him to get to a point that he would've stopped on his own without me asking.

I want to be united as we work on these things, but when he is defensive with me, I get upset. He even rolled his eyes earlier.

I'm not sure how to fix this. I still think we are moving in a positive direction, but I feel a lot of pressure to stay upbeat because he is so easily discouraged. I feel that I shouldn't have brought any of this up and I've ruined the whole day.

We went through similar gyrations for a while, too. My H's boundaries around women had been loose for so many years that it had become habitual. I had to point out many of these things during the first six months or so into recovery and adoption of the EPs. He always defended each instant of violation at first, too, but it was indefensible, according the EPs that I had prepared as my condition for staying in the marriage and that he had agreed to.

Every time an EP is violated, or a particular situation makes you feel jealous or anxious, you must bring it up. You and he must work together to eliminate the conditions that lead to these violations.

The best way to interact with the opposite sex is be professional and pleasant, an arm's length interaction, without personal comments or conversation. Decent and professional people will respect this.

We planned many scenarios at first for us to work out ahead of time. I'd hear about situations on MB and present it to my H, asking how he would handle this situation and we'd work out, ahead of time, the way he should respond.

Your part will be in making it easier for him to be honest with you when he reveals these things. Don't get upset or judgmental. (not saying you did react this way, but forewarning.) Take a deep breath and thank him for being honest. Then it's your turn to say that the interaction is a violation of the EPs and let's work on eliminating the condition.

BTW, rolling eyes at you is a disrespectful judgment, and neither of you should engage in this.

Lastly, recovery is a marathon, not a sprint. Changing habits can be hard, but once new behavior is adopted, it becomes easier.

Yes, this is a good thing! But neither the appointment nor the conversation should have ever happened.


His E.P.'s need to be that he never allows a female to be a service provider for him....

No female doctors
No female haircuts
No female massage therapists
No female consultants
No female friends
No female conversations
No female's ever....

Some people have said this is too harsh, but the reality is , NO it's not. It's Extraordinary, but not harsh....

The habit needing established is no female service providers!

It's not about learning how to avoid conversations with your hair dresser, etc. It's about never being in that situation to begin with.

What's remarkable is that he took your concern and didn't argue with you, debate with you or make you feel that you were wrong... Now THAT's progress!

LongWayFromHome - Thank you SO much for your post. It is encouraging to me, more than you know.

I feel strange saying this, like some kind of cyber-stalker , but seriously just a few days ago I read your recovery story.

The way you described your feelings and the challenges you faced resonated with me. In fact, I have told SEVERAL people about it.

Thank you for sharing your recovery story for others to read, and for responding to me today. I know it isn't a coincidence. I have so many blessings in my life.

We planned many scenarios at first for us to work out ahead of time. I'd hear about situations on MB and present it to my H, asking how he would handle this situation and we'd work out, ahead of time, the way he should respond.


This is EXACTLY what I want to do. I'm hoping when he calms down, he will agree to participate, and not grudgingly.

Thanks HPB. He IS making lots of progress. I know it, and I think it will mean a lot to him that you think it as well.

Thank you for supporting and helping us through this!!

StrongerMe,

My H and I went through some similar things. H has always been very friendly with everyone - men and women alike. Changing that interaction took time and practice. Whenever something came up, I called the coach and let MB handle it. They were able to be more objective and H didn't resent ME for bringing something up.

Longhaul asking about OW is very disturbing. He is dipping his toe into waywardness, getting a "hit" off of talking about OW. This is totally unacceptable. I hope you have mentioned this to your coach as well.

AM

Thanks armymama. It is reassuring to know that changing his interaction with females will take time and practice. That is what I expected.

I also think asking about OW is disturbing. I view it the same way you and others do. He just said he was "making conversation", "meant nothing", "never think about her", "same as asking about so-and-so, who I NEVER think about", "doesn't mean anything", "now that I know it upsets you, I won't do it again".

I'll be talking the our coach today.

Let him try to use this explanation to your coach! Those are all BS excuses. He was wrong and knows it. If he didn't know it, then he is ready to try out for the "Darwin Awards".

AM

AM

Oy-vey.

I talked to the coach and she agreed that this should have been a "no brainer". She talked to him about it yesterday.

I told the coach (and LH) that it reminds me of the stories I heard when we first started dating. He had a close female friend. She and her Mom told me that he would come talk to them about his girl problems and they would just shake their head at his ignorance - how could he not know "x" would be upsetting?

I see similarities now and I'm frustrated because he's almost 44, not 19. He maintains ignorance...so there is no way I can comment on the Darwin Awards without DJ. Knowing that previous statement is also probably DJ.

StrongerMe,

If you had said the comment about the Darwin Awards, it would have been a DJ. Instead, it is merely a rude comment from an anonymous person on the internet.

As I said before, I think the coaches are really well-trained at handling these kinds of issues. Leaving it to them takes the pressure off the annoyed (hurt?) spouse.

AM

Herein lies the root of most of my fears...

I recently watched Dr. Harley's infidelity video. He suggested that if a spouse has feelings/attraction for another person, he or she should tell their spouse.

I've said that very thing to LH for YEARS (before the A) and I never knew it was recommended! I would say, "I'll be upset, but it will be MUCH better than it going too far and being much worse. Then when can fix whatever problems we may have." So he knew this and chose not to do it.

I voiced my concerns, strongly I might add, about his growing friendship with OW. I told him their conversations were inappropriate and that she was opening a door. Everyone may be wired for an affair, but she was already in an active one at the time - and he KNEW it. So we knew she didn't have proper boundaries. And I told LH that...He chose to continue the friendship behind my back and it grew into a full A.

These are all things I have to work through.

He tells me he's going to refrain from certain things because they upset me. I am THRILLED that he is taking this step. But I do see it as an initial step, with the ultimate goal that he will enforce the boundaries, not only to prevent me being upset, but for himself - because HE realizes it truly is a slippery slope.

Hence the verse I love, James 1:13-15

He will get there if he continues to hold fast to the MB Principles.

I read that verse to him last night. I believe he will get there too. I just wish the journey was a little easier...

BAD night. He said he would NOT go to a male doctor or a male hairdresser. He said I was "restricting" him and needed to "loosen up on the leash". He said it's "never enough".

He said the solution would be for me to go to the doctor and hairdresser with him. (By the way, his doctor has been to our house multiple times. He's cooked for her family. Umm... boundaries?)

I told him that I can't and don't want to restrict him. I want him to restrict and leash himself.

This went on for a couple of hours. It was filled with things like him saying if he was an alcoholic the best thing would be for me to accompany him to many bars. I told him that I respectfully disagreed with that solution. He admitted that he didn't really believe that, and was trying to be argumentative. Several different instances of this. VERY frustrating for me...

I asked him how I could approach issues with him so that it didn't go down this road. I asked him what I needed to do differently. He said, "stop talking".

So, crummy night. Then, on the way to work this morning I got rear-ended. No damage to the car. Felt bad for the kid, so I didn't call the police. Now my neck is bothering me.

I realize that my part of the problem is that I allow myself to start debating things like whether the proper solution for an alcoholic is to visit multiple bars, what if the cashier at Home Depot is a woman - can he not go to Home Depot? etc. etc.

So, in essence the "stop talking" advice is good - I must stop trying to talk him into protecting me. Ultimately it will be up to him. All I can do is tell him I am upset, don't feel safe, etc.

LH told me he was sorry. We are eating lunch today, which is good. I'm not going to bring any of it up.

We are eating lunch today...I'm not going to bring any of it up.

If it's as bad as that.....

(Ohh, you meant "bring up" the topics, not the lunch!)

SM, you are not the first, only the most recent, to exit the crisis portion of recovery, newly armed with MB wisdom, only to discover that the marginally acceptable behaviors of your spouse pre-A now register as UNACCEPTABLE treatment as you strive to build a better marriage. (RQ likely fits into that same category.)

You say you don't care to "restrict" him. Well, the alternative, since LH has ceased "getting with the program", is for him to operate unrestricted. Your only choice if "restriction" is to be off the table, is endurance, or departure.

LH should be made aware of the underlined sentence.

This makes me angry .... and sad for you.

This comment represents his attitude.
This comment represents your future with him.


What are you going to do?

See? This is my struggle. I have a hard time discerning what is unacceptable. I worry that I am asking too much. But, then I imagine how the conversation could've gone if Joyce talked to Dr. Harley about the same thing. Is it unreasonable to want and expect our conversation to proceed as I imagine theirs would?


Or patience? (which I consider endurance with expectations). If I'm seeing progress, shouldn't that count for something? Should I be expecting a complete 180?