Gamma,

I'm so sorry you are still tortured because of the secret separate life your wife created. It makes it even harder when the wayward spouse is unwilling to be honest and disclose the answers their spouse needs. All BS's deserve the truth of their own marital history, I hope that you can find some peace when you talk to OM #2. The mental anguish and 20 years of lies must be like torment.

God Bless!

A valuable letter that you might want to print of for your spouse.

It's called Joseph's Letter. My wife printed it and left it for me to read.

(Joseph's Letter)


"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Not all EN should be met. Dr. Harley was saying on the radio show the other day that he has an EN for "being the boss." But, he says, that requiring his wife to meet that EN for him would be detrimental to their marriage. People also have an EN for being an alcoholic, or any other destructive behavior.

If your wife has cut off all contact, is following EPs, and is working to make Just Compensation with you by building a romantic marriage, then this EN you feel to dwell on her affair will very likely fade.

This got lost in the shuffle.



What information leads you to believe this, Klove?

I know the feeling. I really do.


However, for me it is based on hindsight - the fact that an affair was nearly unavoidable due to the poor boundaries my wife previously had, and that because of that, a minimum of boundary crossings could be possible.


So, it comes down to a cost-versus-benefit analysis; does a suspicion, strengthened by hindsight, require possibly bringing the past into the present and resetting recovery... even if my suspicion is wrong?


Obviously you have a right to know what has happened to you without your consent or knowledge.

I would again suggest writing Dr. Harley... which is not only free, but actually "pays" if your letter is read on-air. I have had two letters on the radio show - the first one got forgot, but on the second I got HNHN and HNHNfP for free!

Certainly worth the cost, sir!

Bringing up her affair again this late is a big risk to your recovery. As HHH said, you risk resetting EVERYTHING you and she has accomplished back to square 1.

Talk to Dr. Harley first.

]

klove, can you be more specific about this? What makes you think there was another affair? What has your wife told you about it?

HPB, I would just point out that the person Gamma calls OM2 was from before they married. Gamma found out about the infidelity before the marriage, too, but still married his wife, so that event should be off the table for discussion forever.

Gamma is now consumed with wanting to know the details of the sex they enjoyed, since he did not know at the time that the affair was a PA. His fiancee lied and told him it was an EA. This is what he wants to ask this man about, since his wife won't tell him any sexual details. (The events took place over 20 years ago, BTW.)

Please see This thread if you want to see the history as far as Gamma has told it.

This is a gigantic threadjack and not fair on the poster who came here looking for help. Gamma should not have injected his own obsession with events that he knew about before he was married into this poster's thread, and we should not nurture his obsession on this thread. It's up to him if he wants to seek out so-called OM2 and question him in July, but his need has nothing in common with this poster's need to know the truth of the affair in his marriage.

I would like to know, too.

The Policy of Radical Honesty

Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:


1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior.


2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.


3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse.


4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives.

Continuation of Dr. Harley and honesty;

Granted, dishonesty can be a good short-term solution to marital conflict. It will probably get you off the hook for a few days or months or keep the problem on the back burner. But it's a terrible long-term solution. If you expect to live with each other for the next few years and still be in love, dishonesty can get you into a great deal of trouble.


Because there are so many out there who advocate dishonesty in marriage, I will describe the four parts of my Policy of Radical Honesty, and explain to you why I think they are so important in marriage.

HPB,

If this is about my post, then I think we should take it off this thread. I'd be happy to discuss it on OT, if you're interested.

I don't think there is any disagreement that klove needs to get historical and current honesty from his wife about the affair, so there is no need to convince anyone of this using Dr H's article.

If couples work the MB Program they fill out the HISTORICAL HONESTY questionnaires and only then is it off the table...

If the WS weasels out of the truth, it is up to the BS whether they want to pursue it.

SC,

I don't believe the RULE of Radical Honesty is Off topic at all on a thread about a BS asking about a polygraph. It's very appropriate IMO.

My post and some posts before it were about Gamma, though, and that is very off-topic on this thread.

And of course, by capitalizing it as a rule, it makes it even more important.


Though, another RULE is; once all the details of the affair are known, it is not to be talked about again.

It is certainly common for a BS, having hashed out the affair with the WS, to have a burning need for more, and more, and more details... because once a WS has established their history of marital dishonesty, no answers to questions are really satisfying. Another question always seems to come up.

Dr. Harley knows this. There have been several private forum posts quoted, and I would venture it's on MB radio weekly - quit bringing up the affair.


You can raise the hammer of Radical Honesty for secondary gain, and wreck your marriage and/or recovery.


This isn't off-hand advice, it's standard.


The rationale behind Klove's question isn't unheard of, which is why we want to know;


Klove, what leads you to believe there may have been another affair? <----

***EDIT***

Moderator note: Please stop the bickering on this thread, and please make sure that the thread sticks to helping the original poster with his situation.

Critical part here....

As long as the DETAILS are known!

This is where I am coming from. My fww first had a very short pa in 2003. She has had horrible boundaries her whole life. We moved in 2006 and she was depressed. Looking back I have a feeling it was withdrawl from an affair. She says I know everything. I am not sure.

The main reason I want to be sure is that eventually it will come out, things like that always do. Like I tell my wife, I will always find out eventually somehow. I'd rather get the truth now, early in recovery then to find out a year from now.

We have had an understanding that anything that she lied about that she has not revealed to me yet, she will tell me if she remembers (there were alot of lies so every once in awhile she remembers one and lets me know the truth) and anything else she thinks I should know she will tell me.

2 nights ago she remembered that at the beginning as they were trying to find a place to meet, they met (not for sex, but kissing and fondling) in my sons preschool parking lot (a church), and also gave me a better understanding of the events of their first physical contact. Not intimate details as I have asked her to not tell me those. But the interaction that lead to her laying in his bed while he tried to kiss her.

I have had a rough time since then because of that and for that reason I have decided to ask her to not discuss it anymore. I will have a paternity test completed for my two kids and call it good.

Thanks everyone for your imput. I think it is better to know then for it to eat you up for along time, but I think I need to be satisfied with what I have.

Here is the thing, there is one RULE for known affairs and there is quite another for UNKNOWN affairs. For example, if he has all the details about a known affair, it should never be brought up again. Done, finito!

If there is a suspected affair that he does not have the full truth about, she must give him the facts in order to move on.

He needs to have the full facts about EVERY AFFAIR in order to move on. Once that has happened, the subject should not be brought up again unless new conditions arrive.

If a BS has reason to believe that another affair has taken place and feels his spouse is lying, then that WS needs to do whatever it takes to assure her BS of the truth, including a polygraph.

BINGO!

I pray you find some peace once you have the answers you need.