Dr. Harley's advice to this couple was that he felt the #1 problem was Mrs. Cen's Impulse Control issues.

He felt that getting help and correcting this was of paramount importance in this couple's chances for success.

RNR - Has she done anything to help herself on this issue? I believe Dr. Harley suggested she find a psychologist who specialized in Impulse Control. He wanted her to do this immediately and that until she got this under control, starting to actually R was going to be next to impossible. Is this one of the reasons you are frustrated?

Judging whether your spouse's heart is in the right place is not a part of MB.

No, in fact, most people who have an affair do not intend to destroy their marriage.

Attitude is not Action. Attitudes are feelings. A person can have a poor attitude, but if they follow the program, they can STILL recover the marriage.

Seems to me what this couple needs is for us to help them learn how they can do better, instead of throwing stones and teaching them how to be even more disrespectful to each other. They need to learn how to not dwell on the past, and how to build a good present.

It usually takes awhile before the heart is in the right place, for a WW. Take a look at Sue in Surviving an Affair. She did not come back apologizing, etc. She came back because she had no other choice. BUT, they were able to save their marriage by learning to eliminate love busters, make love bank deposits, and build a compatible life together.

Wow, truer words were never spoken. Prisca and I posted like that on this forum for quite awhile after we came here. And there were no shortage of people to tell us who was right and who was wrong! But it didn't help. We had to learn to stop love busting.

The first priority in marriage recovery is to STOP THE DAMAGE. We need to model being respectful to both RNR and mrs_cen, so they can learn how to be respectful to each other.

Teaching them how to be disrespectful to each other? Throwing Stones? Not sure how you think this is happening.

Facts are facts.

If you read what I said, I based all these statements on what has been posted. No disrespect intended to either of them.

So explain to me where Mrs. Cen has done step #1 of what Dr. Harley counseled her to do about her impulse control?

Through RNR's eyes she isn't doing her part. Isn't that what matters, what he thinks? Sounds reasonable that he would be frustrated.

Not sure about that. I agree it is not a 'technical requirement in MB' for R. Yes, I have heard Dr. Harley say remorse is not always necessary. But I would argue the point that in human nature the heart attitude sure makes a difference in how we Perceive our spouse and the wiliness of the BS to continue with R.


A BS has every right to judge their WS by their Actions. I for one would not recover my M with Clearmind if her heart was not in the right place and that is my prerogative. We all have that freedom to make this choice when tackling the most difficult task in life which is R a M after an affair.


A cold, non-remorseful WS makes R a whole lot more difficult.


Wouldn't you say?

Agreed.

One of the things I relate to with every couple that is struggling is the ability to recognize and change LBs. Without the recognition part being accomplished nothing changes. I suspect for many couples who struggle with introspection for whatever reason really struggle to eliminate their LBs.

I for one am one. Even though I put forth effort to �be careful� with what I say or do, by trying to be introspective, I still blow it fromtime to time. I�ll make a statement that is a DJ to her or was simply too negative. It is VERY difficult for me to change these behaviors. And having had to practice them alone without my W�s input I�m still not that good at it.

I loved having Dr Chalmers around to have discussions about my musings and have her call me on my crap. It�d be nice if I could afford a coach like that 24x7.

I see them needing to learn more than just eliminating the dwellings of the past. I think there are subtle DJs and AOs happening in their home all the time. The withdrawal and resentment seem very thick to me and it�s really hard having those thoughts and feelings and yet try to reshape the M into something positive. These two need something to get that ball rolling in the right direction.

Maybe it is something as simple as MrsCen following up on Dr Harley�s advice and seeking counsel for the impulse control issues.

There is no right or wrong only what works and what doesn't work.

20year, I'm sorry, but it is hard enough to teach people how to recognize their own disrespect in a marriage. If we have to show you also how you are being disrespectful that is going to make it just about impossible and probably spell disaster to this couple.

When you speak about your spouse's intentions as if you can read their mind, you are being disrespectful. When you do so about mrs_cen, you are being disrespectful.

This is the answer that came back to me EVERY TIME I spoke to my coach or contacted Dr. Harley or contacted experienced Marriage Builders about my perception that Prisca was not doing the work in recovery and was not on board with Marriage Builders. Every single time.

You cannot read her mind and do not know what her intentions are. And you probably do not know what it is like to have the extreme difficulty following the POJA that mrs_cen has.


She posted about this.


No, that's pure disrespect and should not be expressed at all. "Radical honesty" does not mean license to make disrespectful judgments.


Of course it is reasonable that he is frustrated. The question is: can they recover, and if so, what should he do? And the first answer is yes, they can recover, and the second starts with: calm down, stop fighting, and don't be disrespectful.

The quickest solution to this problem is to refrain from telling a posting spouse what the non-posting spouse should do!

Well, the rest of us are, and I have no idea why you not knowing would give you license to come in and disrupt.

If you aren't sure, find out before posting again, okay? There is a marriage at stake.

Argue it with Dr. Harley, then, not here. It is Dr. Harley you are disagreeing with.

Markos never believed I was serious, either. He judged the nature of my heart attitude all the time. It only hindered recovery.

Judging your spouse's intentions is a DJ. Judging whether she is "serious" is a DJ.

Not any more difficult than an angry, judgmental BS.
Lovebusters must be eliminated.
Attitude will change with time.

I don't think you realize just how exceptional your situation with clearmind is.

Prisca and I have a number of "exceptions" too that we have talked with Dr. Harley about - but we do not use those exceptions to advise other people.

RNR needs to learn to address problems that mrs_cen causes for him in the present WITHOUT making those problems be about the past or be about the affair or be a referendum on her sincerity or lack of sincerity.

Since we are talking about problems of the PRESENT, not the PAST, why would remorse even be an issue?

The point of Marriage Builders recovery is that you don't spend the rest of your life "remorseful."

Holding someone accountable means you tell them where they are crossing the line.

They have to use that information to get back on the right side of that line AND not keep trying to cross the line.

Ultimately, the only thing the one holding the other accountable can do is remind them of the boundary and if they persist on finding new ways to cross it, remove themselves from the situation.

I actually believe he's doing a great job of holding her accountable.

Previous methods have not resulted in her implementing self-control that is consistent with recovering a marriage, so he's removed himself from the situation.

Accountability isn't measured in how the person you are holding accountable behaves. It's measured in what you do when they persist in crossing the line. Refusing to remain the status quo with someone who continually crosses the line IS holding her accountable. It's the ultimate consequence for repeated failures to self-regulate her behavior.

I have heard Dr. Harley discuss the human element of recovery many times. To infer that my statements are in conflict with him on this issue is incorrect.

Are you saying that Dr. Harley's position is that a remorseful WS does not help the BS recover easier then without? Again, I understand that Remorse is not A REQUIREMENT for recovery.

I absolutely believe that each us can Judge our WS's progress through R based on their actions. How else can we determine if R is working or not? We have to judge them.

I agree it is impossible to read minds concerning 'heart attitude'. But actions don't lie. Facts don't lie.

Hey, maybe Marcos could R with you not being remorseful. Good for you two.

Not me.

It is up to each BS to determine what they can and cannot accept from their WS to R. Agreeing to a plan for Recovery such as MB is a part of that.

Each BS has to determine what is acceptable during recovery. Recovery IS in the present.

You and Prisca were able to R without it. Some of us can't.

Do I want Clearmind to always be remorseful? I guess a part of me does..not in the respect that I bring up the A. I don't. We are living in the now.

Remorse to me is that she is 'remorseful' for the pain an suffering she has put our family through. I don't want her to wear it like a yoke around her neck. Not at all. But, to think that when she reflects back on the past, she isn't remorseful...well..that is just hurtful.