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Originally Posted By: Sunnytimes

I feel a bit like Gideon who had to get all his confirmations confirmed yet again. But then I'll KNOW there wasn't a stone left unturned which is important to my future peace of mind, as well as my firm conviction that this separation would met the standard set in 1 Cor 7:13: And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. (i.e. by inference the opposite - if he is not pleased to live with her, let her leave him).


Sunny, I would take another approach. Since you have been asking him for YEARS and he has said no in so many, varied, different ways [in word and deed] I would not ask him again. He has given you his answer so many times, in so many ways. Stop asking him and accept the answer he has given you a million times. Take him at his word and act accordingly. You already know the answer.

My fear is that you ask him again and he knows you are separating this time, he will say yes and then drag his feet for another 10 years.

It also comes across as blackmail if you say "if you don't do this, you have to move out." That seems like force. That is very different from just telling him you have made a decision to separate and *IF* things change dramatically, you would consider reconciliation.

I think you should make the decision to separate now regardless of his answer. I think you are past that point and now need to see positive action being demonstrated over a long period of time. It will take him at least a year, for example to learn to control his anger. Give him the opportunity to make that change while you are safely removed from him.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Quote:
I think you should make the decision to separate now regardless of his answer. I think you are past that point and now need to see positive action being demonstrated over a long period of time. It will take him at least a year, for example to learn to control his anger. Give him the opportunity to make that change while you are safely removed from him.

I very much agree with this. If he is serious and wants to save this marriage, he will do what it takes even if you separate from him.


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I followed ML's most recent suggestion in not "blackmailing" to get him to take an anger management course or read the books. I am (was?) also prepared to take her other instructions, but wanted to give an update on what happened next.

We already had one more session scheduled with the MC where our assignment was "list what you are willing to do to save the marriage". Knowing what I was looking for (anger mgmt and MB books/concepts), he told the MC what he was willing to do to save the marriage (date for UA time, separate if I wanted). He again restated no books or anger mgmt. I steered the conversation so he went first to avoid a blackmail setup, although he already knew the books and anger mgmt were on my list. At the MC session, he said it looks like this is over, it isn't going to work and start planning our exit. Seeing no effort other than what he has made all along, I agreed and we discussed how to split our financial affairs, timing, etc.

That evening, we went to see a Pastor who was visiting from another location, but one that my H really likes. I know this detour was outside of what was recommended here, but getting spiritual guidance for such a big step is so important to me. Also, in our denomination an un-Biblical separation and re-marriage is a matter of church discipline so it was important to me that at the end of this journey I have properly followed the church process. This was the first they had heard of anything, so they were reluctant to advise us we were at the end of our journey without any effort from their side.

The Pastor spent several hours with us (both together and separately) and asked H if he would make at least the minimal attempt at enrolling in AM course. H said the Pastor worked very hard to charm him into taking anger mgmt, and based on H's respect for the Pastor, H would do that. Pastor also asked that I give H a list of 5 things I feel when he is angry so H could take that to anger mgmt.

Almost two weeks later, with no action by H to enroll in an anger mgmt, I gave him my list, which boiled down to that I felt rejected and despised for most of our marriage due to the things he says in AOs, and that now even when he is nice, I am waiting for the next AO, so I see him as a hater even when he is not angry. Upon receiving my list, H said this is all over. If I can tolerate to live together until Dec it would be best for us financially. We called in to the Pastor for 10 minutes on Saturday as he had asked we do once a week. H told Pastor he was done, I told Pastor that H has made no move to enroll in anger mgmt, I see no effort on his part (didn't say this, but as I expected). Pastor didn't have any immediate guidance for me at that point and referred me to follow up with my local Pastor.

While I was finishing up my side of the call, H started a skype with the children who live out of state. When I was done, I joined the skype. After the skype, I felt overwhelmed - like he was tying the final bow on his rejection after rejection - and put my face in my hands and just sat there. H got up, left me without a word or gesture and went to the bedroom to watch TV. He came back out for a glass of water, walking past me. On his way back to the TV, I looked up and said in a broken, vehement voice "you are so cold!" He paused in his step but kept walking, shutting the bedroom door and watched TV some more.

At this moment, it felt right to me in every way to follow Melody Lane's advice and not wait until December. I had reached the point and it was time. I could not live with this coldness and rejection every day for two months. I was going to let Sunday go, and then take action on Monday.

During church on Sunday, in a quiet moments, all of my thoughts caught up to me. I couldn't help the waterworks (although they were very quiet and discrete), and was just overwhelmed that I was not worth reading a book or taking a class or even a kind gesture the prior night. H happened to notice the tears running down my face.

So, Sunday afternoon he pulled me into the bedroom and said he didn't want me to feel sad. He would read a book (HNHN, LBs) instead of seeing me sad - and that my comment last night on him being cold had hit him as having some truth. I told him I didn't want him to do anything because I was sad. I would survive and so would he. It's best to do what needs to be done for both of us now. No sense in wasting several more years of our lives to reach the same end all over again just because I had a few tears today. He became more persistent, and I became more insistent that we'd both be OK, and let's just move forward as planned. We'd both get over it.

Finally he said he previously hadn't been willing to make the effort because he didn't see that it would make anything better - how would I overcome my bitterness towards the rotten marriage I perceived, and the resentment of the past? He said if there was any glimmer of encouragement from my side, he would love to try.

So I said, similarly I am in the same ditch. I don't see anything from his part that would be offering a different relationship - just more of the same. He hasn't given me a glimmer of any hope. This opened his eyes, and he asked if I would give him time to read the books and if he could start showing affection. I told him that was the only way I could make it to December, since Saturday felt terrible - I realized couldn't' live with the overt daily atmosphere of rejection and coldness until then. I also told him it would take a while before I could reciprocate but if he was willing to keep pushing through that, then we coast that way until December.

H spent the rest of the day showing affection, and at bedtime, H pulled me close to him in bed to snuggle before falling asleep. H has not reached out to me for a cuddle for almost 20 years. And this was with him knowing that SF was off the table. About 4 weeks ago I told him I couldn't do SF again unless my heart was in it so could we wait until we either restore our marriage or split.

He has since read another chapter of LBs (DJs) and appreciated what he read. I have so many whip-sawing emotions - why is he being affectionate NOW after the 20 YEARS I have spent in the wilderness (that is a long time!) - will this effort last - this has never been who he is (except when we were dating), so if he keeps this up and we right the ship, will it go back to what it was and waste my time and break my heart all over again....so many questions.....so many emotions.

I shared these concerns with him last night with raw details (and many tears - which is very rare because is hasn't been good for me to show vulnerability to him) on how certain things in the past had hurt me so deeply. I also described that when he AOs there is a PERSON with FEELINGS on the other end, RECEIVING his words and HURTING. I told him this will not be an easy journey for him because on the way to restoration we will have some conflicts to resolve - and that there will be more information about how things that happened hurt because I need to feel he understands so he realizes the effect on me if he does them again. They were hard for him to hear, but he had been very affectionate on Monday - dedicatedly pursuing me - said he would continue reading LBs and last night he reached out again to cuddle.

Thoughts?


Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.

Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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I think it is a bunch of nothing to get you off his back. It has worked for him in the past. He knows that you will grasp any crumb he throws out there.

Did he even bother to enroll in anger management?

Quote:

Finally he said he previously hadn't been willing to make the effort because he didn't see that it would make anything better - how would I overcome my bitterness towards the rotten marriage I perceived, and the resentment of the past? He said if there was any glimmer of encouragement from my side, he would love to try.


That is some amazing chutzpah. He does nothing to change the situation so that you won't be bitter but wants "encouragement" for doing nothing.

You have shown him the WAY to erase your resentment and bitterness for YEARS and he has soundly and consistently rejected it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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**edit**

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She cannot meet his needs until his AOs are eliminated:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
Angry Outbursts are the final and most inappropriate form of abuse and control. As long as either spouse cant control their anger, their marriage has little hope of improving or being fulfilling. Its not only an ineffective way to overcome problems, but it is also very dangerous. There are many cases every year of people who killed or maimed their spouse in a fit of rage, where they never thought they would do such a thing. I usually recommend that overcoming angry outbursts, and all other forms of abuse and control (demands and disrespectful judgments) be eliminated before trying to resolve conflicts, or even trying to meet emotional needs. Your sincere effort to please a controlling and abusive husband puts you in a dangerous position both emotionally and physically. So until your husband learns to control his temper, I wouldnt even consider trying to meet his emotional needs.

Original letter here


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**edit*

moderators note: do not disrupt this thread again!

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Do not disrupt this thread again!


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I appreciate your life changing advice and support for me during this situation.

My only reason to delay was to make sure that my standing with my church was not compromised if this ultimately did not work out with Steubenville (as I did not expect it to) so there would be no church discipline issues if I ever remarried - i.e. to follow their process.

Several weeks ago I talked to our new permanent pastor (not the one I mentioned before) and he quickly agreed this marriage could not continue as-is, and initially said I must separate, although that might not meet the Bible's freedom of remarriage standards under 1 Cor 7 - he would need to think and pray about that. Not a quick yes or a quick no.

Upon hearing that, I relayed to the pastor an overview of the events discussed here under my old username (whistlewhileyouwork)and he said that would qualify as grounds for divorce under adultery. Based on that he said I was free to move on without concern for any Biblical remarriage limitations.

Additionally, as you might have expected (I should say as you all predicted) there have been multiple other incidents where Steubenville simply does not see a perspective other than his own. He is blinded to having empathy for the person receiving his actions.

I feel a tremendous burden being lifted from my shoulders - I have done literally EVERYTHING I could do, and failing that endured as LONG as I could (which in retrospect was not a noble thing to do).

After a recent incident, Steubenville said he wanted a divorce because he could never make me happy. I told him he could want a divorce, but asked him not to speak for me - get a divorce if he wants to but for his own reasons. After several rounds of this, he finally said he wants a divorce because he doesn't want to be my husband anymore.

I feel at peace with this resolution.

I feel that if we had separated as I had asked in July we might be in a different position right now, but it was not meant to be that way, I guess. Also, I don't know if I can ever get over how his first reaction after being asked to separate, which was to strike back with a wrecking ball at the kids' respect towards me by telling them I wasn't right in the head.

Today we looked at a house he wanted to buy. He had lined up a showing and at last minute asked me to come along to give an opinion, so I did. It is the perfect house for him and the payment would be similar to his rent in this area anyway.

I still have concerns about the finances as it's still 50/50 if I'll lose my job at the end of this month, but what will be will be.

We are living together amicably until after December, but are going our own ways for Christmas vacation. Not having my feelings/emotions/future wrapped up in his harsh comments makes a WORLD of difference. I am not stressed out about him being in the house whatsoever.

I'm trying to keep my mind off the upcoming two huge changes (job loss and the day he moves out and initiates the divorce) occurring on potentially the same day, Jan 1, but am extremely stressed out anyways. If my job wasn't hanging by a thread I'd be doing WAY better.

I had two sales lined up for Dec where if either of them worked out our investors would hang with us for another year. One of them just fell through but the other is still possible.

I'm trying to focus on actions, not fears, right now.

If it hadn't been for my February thread where you all opened my eyes to this relationship not being sustainable as is, and this thread, I don't know where I'd be right now.

Thank you very much for all of the wise advice, and the time you spent on me.


Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.

Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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One more update to my situation.

I am struggling to let this wash off my back, and am feeling so much resentment.

Since this decision has been made, close family members have made me aware of several things; among them:

1) At our wedding reception, H told my cousin that H was sorry to be marrying me. I believe my cousin because H told me that himself 3 days after our wedding. At the time when my H said this to me, I thought he was just really angry and trying to say something hurtful. I didn't fully appreciate how much my H actually meant it. The statement to my cousin at our wedding was in "cold blood", you might say. Not in the midst of any emotional situation.

I feel so defrauded of the 25 years of my life I spent married to him, wondering why my H used me and stole my time in this way. What was in it for him?

2) I learned my H has been saying that I wanted to show off my large paycheck better so I wasn't content with our old home and needed to build a large, fancy one - but that H would just be content with a simple, humble home. I've always taken care against being prideful - which H knows - and have never said any such thing. I also never even thought it. He knew exactly how horrified I'd be about him saying this.

Building a new home was a mutual decision because the other one was too small for our large family and the costs of remodeling would never be realized in a sale based on the neighborhood it was in; it would have been wasted money.

When we were planning the house, I was running late for one of the meetings with the architect during which my H knew I was going to show the architect various ways to reduce square footage. Before I arrived, my H and the architect were discussing the plan and came up with several ideas that expanded the square footage. I insisted we didn't need to expand it and could cut it, but my H said the expansion changes were even better. SO, I was certainly not driving a monster home project over his objections one bit.


There have been other little confirmations along the way - things I learn that he's said - that keep pointing to the path we are moving on being the right direction.

I could use some advice in processing these two revelations and keep moving on. I just feel sick in the pit of my stomach.

As a footnote, H will be closing on his home and moving out soon. Him being in the same house with me during the transition is not a factor - I would feel this sickness in the pit of my stomach over these two things whether he were still transitioning or not.


Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.

Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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Sunnytimes, I think the sooner you separate, the faster you will feel better. You can't change the past, but you can make your future great. When will he be moving out? Can he move out sooner?

I hope you will go into Plan B when you separate. Plan B was a Godsend for me when trying to avoid the hurtful triggers from my XH.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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"Can he move out sooner?"

He says that if he moves out now it will compromise his home loan for his new place. I wanted to avoid gifting him with the storyline (to all his family, our friends and the kids) that I really screwed him over in a divorce by preventing him from getting his loan.

I've been behaving pleasantly in this interim to not drive up the cost of the divorce. We have almost everything worked out except a few last items which I have emotional reasons for not conceding. We plan to use the same attorney who will handle the filing based on what we tell him to do at a joint meeting.

Once the money is settled and the divorce filed, we could go into plan B. It would be good for both of us, I think. I've been trying to keep a cordial and friendly attitude in the meantime since anything else would not accomplish anything. In a recent sermon our pastor touched on "heaping coals upon the head" of someone who is against you by your kind actions, and it made me chuckle a little. I don't mind that he transitions from a nice environment to a lonely one.

I'd feel 100% better if my financial situation changed; my job was extended to Feb but I don't have anything beyond that. I'm applying for jobs and trying to find other opportunities, but applying to a company's web site is not the best way to get a job (although I am still doing it anyway) and there aren't any opportunities in my network that I can find. My H's child support is not enough to keep the lights on and food on the table.

As always, you have good advice. I will definitely Plan B after our divorce is filed.

The things I found out that he already said (one last summer and one 25 years ago) just still hurt a lot, though. Not due to any feelings I have for him, but because that my friends/family were told these things in his efforts to just be randomly mean and take me down; and because I wasted 25 years of my life married to someone who didn't want me from the outset - who just used me and my time - for what I still don't understand.

There were other times that he would say something nasty about me - along those lines or other personal things - initiating the comment just randomly to mutual acquaintances (yes, this information is triggering THOSE recollections now, too).

I suppose it's back to "God, heal my broken heart....God, heal my broken heart.." until I can get this information off the top of my mind.


Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.

Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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Sunny, I'm so sorry to hear those things. The first one though, was something you knew going into it, and you chose to take the chance on the marriage, too. So hopefully you can understand why he decided to stay, knowing what he did, when you made the same decision with the same information. I hope that helps bring you some peace.


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Thank you NewEveryDay.

I did NOT know he was sorry to be marrying me during our wedding - it was only 3 days after our wedding that I first heard it.

Also, he was very angry when he said it, so I thought (especially based on his loving behavior again later that day) that he had just said it in anger.

He did not say that again until I was pregnant with our first child - but then again, soon after was acting loving and like nothing happened.

I didn't start believing he actually meant it until some years later after he had said it a number of additional times. Based on my understanding of Biblically permitted divorce at the time, though, I thought I had no choice but to continue trying to fix what I could in the marriage to make the best of the situation - I did not have Biblical grounds for divorce (which at the time I understood was limited to adultery).

During the wedding and leading up to it, I had NO idea he was marrying me whilst being sorry about marrying me.

Therefore, I absolutely did NOT make the same decision. I did not have that information prior to or during our wedding. He was very well aware that my faith does not permit divorce once a person is married. That is what does NOT bring me peace and burns terribly.


Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.

Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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Just to clarify what it is upsetting me now - it is only very recently that I learned he was actually saying to our guest(s) DURING our wedding reception that he was sorry he was marrying me.

I had no idea, and no one passed that on to me during the reception.

Last edited by Sunnytimes; 01/17/14 03:29 PM.

Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.

Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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Sunny,

I'm sorry your H has treated you so poorly for your marriage. He lied to you repeatedly during your marriage. He with-held information from you by saying those things to your wedding guests! No way would you have married him knowing what he was saying. And you have been the brunt of his wrath most of your marriage.

Plan B actually sounds like a vacation compared to how your H has been treating you! And as Melody has said - you can make your future great. How soon are you planning on Plan B and separation?


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Sunny I see what you mean, it's easy to think he was saying something he didn't really mean because he was angry. I didn't think I had biblical grounds for my divorce, and carried guilt for over 3 years until I met with my pastor last week. I encourage you to go, too, divorce is taking the two that became one, and dividing into two again, such a painful thing. It felt like losing an arm that I really needed! They can help you find solace and comfort and lighten this heavy burden.

About the second thing, the folks who care about you will be able to put it in perspective. And anyone who chooses to judge you without hearing your side is loosing out.


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Thank you BlairBluefin. I am looking forward to the separation and just hoping it is not a financial train wreck (that I can find a job).

NewEveryDay: If he would have said that to me before or during the wedding it would have been one thing - I would NOT have presumed he didn't fully mean it. He only said that to me after the wedding.

Also, he was fully aware that once I entered the commitment of marriage, my faith did not permit a divorce. He has also said to one of his family members that he could basically do anything because I couldn't leave him (divorce).

I just feel so deceived and defrauded right now. To think he knew all this upfront and intentionally stole my time and all the energy I expended to keep my marriage on track the best I could, and the painful path I walked for so many years. There never was a real offer of marriage - he never intended to participate with me in one.

Thank you for the encouragement on the other issue.


Are you living in a covenant with death? With bitterness in your marriage? Read Isaiah 28. The bed will not be long enough or the covers wide enough for you to ever find comfort in that life. In Isaiah 28, God tells you to take a stick and beat these conditions out of your life.

Isaiah 28:29 "This [command] also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working."
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