I apologize - I wrongly thought it was without actually clicking on it. I have tried the audio links before, and they are blocked by the I.T. dept.

OH - Update: The reason I stated I am scared of my wife right now is because of the unpredictability I am receiving/perceiving. Especially since she has been so amazingly affectionate lately, I had no idea what she was truly thinking. It's the uncertainty of not knowing the truth that has me so frightened. I feel "lulled" into a false sense of security. If I knew what was really going on, I wouldn't feel like this.

That is a good idea. I will try hard to not forget to come back and check in.

Are you working this program or not? I would think that if you have decided to use Marriage Builders to save your marriage, you would be checking in frequently.

Make a written todo list!

Yes, I do.
I wish I had known earlier.
I tend to forget things might be going wrong when things feel like they are going right. I am hope Elaina will be wanting to talk through some of these topics tonight.

Thank you for that. I can see the value in the information, now I need to see if we can work out some dialogue to get back to recovery mode.



I had felt for a long time that I was being "beaten over the head" with Marriage Builders - Elaina was very offensive to me with the information at many times, using the information as a blame tactic to make me feel it was all my fault we were having trouble and that if I didn't submit to Dr. Harley's teachings (and him personally) then I was an outright fool.

That placed me on the defensive. It is difficult to be open to new ideas if you are told you are an idiot for not accepting the beliefs of another. Just like this:
I was made to feel stupid by Elaina for having an opinion that I would like to know more about MB and needed time to investigate it more... but I was just having MB rammed at me forcefully and I resented her for that. I, too - felt very disrespected that I wasn't allowed to look into the program first, and was expected to blindly jump in. This has created a psychological block that has been difficult to overcome to be willing to accept ideas that were once forced upon (Selfish Demand?) me instead of allowing me to look into it myself.


I have made tremendous progress in eliminating AO's but it will still take time to earn her trust.

Yes, I am familiar with this concept. I want to make sure the state of withdrawl get eliminated as quickly as possible. We need to be able to talk in order to work things out.


OK, I will! :-)



OK, I will do that as well.


The cheat sheet is the 4 items you listed that I am only doing two of the four? OK, I will make them a primary focus.

Have you been diagnosed with an actual psychological block?

Dr. Harley studied couples that had good marriages and extracted out the factors that were common to them, to create his program.

Meanwhile, Elena had a horrible marriage in which you abused her.

If you would like to make it up to her, here is how to have a good marriage with her, Dr. Harley or not.

If you balk at that all the time, I don't think anyone would blame her for leaving you. In fact, I would encourage her to do so - women have a lot LESS stamina than men for putting up with a bad marriage. Years of abuse for women in marriage result in genuine psychological and physical problems - post traumatic stress disorder, compromised immune systems.

I am wondering what the answer to this is, as well. It took inappropriate actions from both of us to get where we are. I would like to know what can help me keep motivated to work things out while I am in the process of being hurt. The blame does not fall on my shoulders only.

Withdrawal is like the snails that Dr. Harley says he used to poke when he was a boy. When he would poke them, they would pull their heads back into their shells. When they came back out, if he poked them again, they would draw back in and stay their longer. And even longer the next time. And so on.

Don't poke the snail!

Every time you make a demand, disrespectful judgment, or angry outburst, you put her into withdrawal.

You can't hurry her out of withdrawal. It's an emotional and non-rational thing. What you have to do is keep monitoring yourself for those four things I mentioned (did you copy down that list?) so that when she does come out, you don't send her back.

Warning: reading the basic concepts, you'll see the three states of mind in marriage are Withdrawal, Conflict, and Intimacy. After withdrawal, she will be in conflict. She will probably come out swinging. Don't be surprised if she messes up and breaks some rules and makes some demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts of her own. Don't respond with MORE demands, disrespect, or anger, or you will send her right back into withdrawal. Don't fall apart emotionally if she does. Just stay cool and keep checking that you are doing those four things and start incorporating the feedback she is providing you.

See your doctor about antidepressants.

You make it sound like it's so easy to do. If it were so easy to do, I would not be in the position I am in right now. When you are in the bottom of a deep pit, clawing your way to the top doesn't happen in an instant. It takes a lot of work. It doesn't help when so many other things are happening in my life.

Wow, Y'all can type waaaaayyyyyy faster than I can..... let me get caught up.

Markos is telling you to do what he himself had to do.
It's not easy. We all know that.
But the sooner you stop making excuses and start taking ownership, the sooner you will be in recovery.

What is the point of arguing about how hard or easy it is? You have to do it if you want your marriage to succeed.

I can't think of anything in the world to be gained from you trying to persuade me of how hard this is. Since I've saved my own marriage from similar circumstances, I'm actually pretty aware of how difficult it is to make these changes!

Yes, Sir, Drill Sargent! (that is a compliment, BTW)
I can commit to doing this!

Yes, it's hard, but if you whine all the time instead of actually buckling down and doing the work, you are not safe for your wife to be married to, Ernie.

Then be here every day, and listen to the show every day. Start working through Love Busters with your wife, and start exchanging the weekly worksheets that book describes (there's a workbook if you need a guide as to what those should look like).

Get that todo list made. Put all the above on it.

No - - - but I have yet to find anyone who enjoys getting insulted, or of being disrespected for having an opinion.

I believe marriage is supposed to be a team effort, not where one of you is is ramming stuff down the other's throat against their will. <- that is just not conducive to creating positive change in a marriage.


Hmmm...perhaps it wasn't always me doing the abuse?

OK, that is a good warning.

I have had to fight "defensive tendencies" all my life. Really, NO ONE enjoys getting attacked - especially by their spouse. If you are a Christian man, please pray for my patience to be able to always handle that type of situation. It sounds a lot like going through a root canal with no anesthesia!!!

Exactly! That's why Elena needs you to do this stuff and quit balking about how hard it is! That's exactly what she needs from you - a team effort instead of an angry man ramming stuff down her throat.


I already mentioned that Dr. Harley's told us all that in abusive marriages the abuse is usually on both sides. We already know that. No sense bringing it up again and again, Ernie. It's just a common tactic we men use here to NOT DO THE WORK.

Ernie there is no sense in your wife learning how to eliminate her demands, disrespect, and anger, if you aren't completely totally 100% committed to doing so yourself. It would be a waste of time for her. Your abusive behavior is not caused by her abusive behavior. As long as you are claiming that this is all just Dr. Harley's opinion, or whining about how your wife commits love busters too, etc., it's all just excuses to not do the work and it would be unsafe for her to invest much more effort in your marriage.