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Originally Posted by MindMonkey
Military life is, for many married folks, a complement to their marriage. I thought is was to mine.

I will tell you an interesting story about the effect of military life on marriages. Some Army chaplains contacted Dr Harley a few years ago with their concern about the epidemic of divorce and infidelity in military marriages. They asked him to find some solutions.

Well, Dr Harley decided to STUDY couples in the military who had romantic, passionate marriages to find out how they did it. He sent the word out for any couples who fit that description to contact him so he could test them. He asked and asked and asked and asked for couples to step forward. He even made a post on the military forum.

That was in 2009. He is still waiting for a couple to step forward.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MindMonkey
Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Mindmonkey, I was happy to hear you talk to Dr. Harley today. I missed the last few minutes, but what did you think of what he said?

Aside from the horror of hearing my own voice muffled by a cold and what must have been a bad setting on a brand new phone, I think the call was helpful. I�m still sorting through what we talked about including some concepts that I really didn�t like hearing.

In particular, he said that most of what she said in the �fog� was actually TRUE. Up until yesterday, I felt reassured by the fact that it was some alien using my wife�s body spouting nonsense during the fog to justify her affair and treatment of me. Now, am I to understand it was really her all along and those horrible things she said were her true feelings? I�m figuring out what this means. On the one hand, it means I have all the answers as to the marriage she wants�a good thing indeed. But I would have rather had those answers without dealing with the pain of infidelity. This is exactly where I get the feeling she had the affair on purpose�just to show me she was serious�like Dr. Harley said �she was setting me straight.� I guess she did in the end.

I also didn�t care for the idea that she had the affair because �I wasn�t there� as Dr. Harley said. That seems a bit like it was my fault. I know that�s not what he meant, but I am sensitive to the idea.


I�ll also note that Dr. Harley did not suggest she separate from me as some people are suggesting she does. He says I need to stop saying things that hurt her before she loses too much love for me. This is something I understand and continue to work on.

Here�s what I gather the next steps are from the discussion:
1. Stop �punishing� her. She did disgusting and horrible things, knows it, and has to live with it forever. The score is even.
2. Stop sacrificing which is leading to additional resentments on top of the one�s I already have. One big exception here is the fact that I have to give up my career which, as Dr. Harley states, has been destructive in my marriage. I am finding it difficult to be enthusiastic throwing away a career because my wife cannot be separated from me overnight.
3. Encourage total openness and honesty so that she can tell me when she finds someone attractive. I think this is going well so far. She told me she found one particular man attractive at her work a few weeks ago and I had no problem with this at all.
4. Practice respectful OH myself so DW knows where she is falling short at meeting my needs. And in the same respect, allow her to meet those needs.
5. Never mention divorce or separation again unless I intend to follow through.
6. Continue with the 20+ hours a week of UA time.

I couldn�t agree more that DW and I are VERY compatible. Like Dr. Harley said, when I�m not angry with her, it�s so obvious that we are each with the right person. I can�t imagine getting divorced and finding another woman that fits me as well...ever.

I�ll revisit the broadcast again if BH can post it after it hits the archives. I�m sure there�s more that I�m missing.
I have just listened to the show, which will be rebroadcast for about another hour, so there is still time for you to listen to it again.

I think the main thing you are missing is that Dr Harley emphasised that it is really you your wife wants to be with and always has been. The major problem is that she falls in love really easily, and that is why she needs to stay away from situations in which there are attractive men - including work situations.

This is what he meant by saying that she had the affairs because "you were not there", and by telling you that her fog talk is actually revealing the truth about her feelings. She wants you to be there every day, and she wants you to be giving her admiration, affection and attention.

You were not there, for long periods when you were deployed, and that absence, combined with her ability to fall for other attractive men, allowed the affairs to happen.

Dr Harley guaranteed that if you were with her every day and gave her the admiration and attention she thrives on, she will never have another affair, and you two will have a romantic and passionate marriage.

It is bizarre that you would see giving up your military career as a sacrifice, when doing so would bring you the marriage you desire. If you had given up that career when you married, you could have had that marriage all along. How can such a gain be a sacrifice?


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I will tell you an interesting story about the effect of military life on marriages. Some Army chaplains contacted Dr Harley a few years ago with their concern about the epidemic of divorce and infidelity in military marriages. They asked him to find some solutions.

Well, Dr Harley decided to STUDY couples in the military who had romantic, passionate marriages to find out how they did it. He sent the word out for any couples who fit that description to contact him so he could test them. He asked and asked and asked and asked for couples to step forward. He even made a post on the military forum.

That was in 2009. He is still waiting for a couple to step forward.

Did he ever give the chaplains any advice?

People just can't quit the military. We can't go to our boss and say we're not going on deployment. We would end up in the brig. What can be done to help a married couple that has to endure separation?

I would really like to know. I don't think I'll be going on any more deployments but I've got another 3 years on my contract, anything can happen. If I get sent somewhere, should I just give up on the marriage?


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
I think the main thing you are missing is that Dr Harley emphasised that it is really you your wife wants to be with and always has been. The major problem is that she falls in love really easily, and that is why she needs to stay away from situations in which there are attractive men - including work situations.

This is what he meant by saying that she had the affairs because "you were not there", and by telling you that her fog talk is actually revealing the truth about her feelings. She wants you to be there every day, and she wants you to be giving her admiration, affection and attention.

You were not there, for long periods when you were deployed, and that absence, combined with her ability to fall for other attractive men, allowed the affairs to happen.

Dr Harley guaranteed that if you were with her every day and gave her the admiration and attention she thrives on, she will never have another affair, and you two will have a romantic and passionate marriage.
Thanks for that perspective. I think I understand that.

Quote
It is bizarre that you would see giving up your military career as a sacrifice, when doing so would bring you the marriage you desire. If you had given up that career when you married, you could have had that marriage all along. How can such a gain be a sacrifice?
I wouldn't be sure of that. If I had given up the military when we first married, I doubt we would still be married. You can ask her on that, but that's my opinion. The military made me into the man I am today. That teenager she fell in love with years ago would have never become the man she needs without it.

In fact, being in an all-male military community has been key to me not having an affair. If you would have asked both of us ten years ago who would have been the spouse to have an affair, we both would have said me, for reasons I don't want to admit. I don't want to speculate but if I had an affair it may have turned out differently. I think I might not have come back and/or she wouldn't have taken me back. In a roundabout way I'm saying if I wasn't in the military, I would probably have destroyed my marriage with my own infidelity by now.

And it's a sacrifice simply because I'm not enthusiastic about it. Not yet at least. All I've known is this life and the great mystery of life after the military (and how well I'll adjust) is scary to me right now.


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Originally Posted by MindMonkey
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I will tell you an interesting story about the effect of military life on marriages. Some Army chaplains contacted Dr Harley a few years ago with their concern about the epidemic of divorce and infidelity in military marriages. They asked him to find some solutions.

Well, Dr Harley decided to STUDY couples in the military who had romantic, passionate marriages to find out how they did it. He sent the word out for any couples who fit that description to contact him so he could test them. He asked and asked and asked and asked for couples to step forward. He even made a post on the military forum.

That was in 2009. He is still waiting for a couple to step forward.

Did he ever give the chaplains any advice?

People just can't quit the military. We can't go to our boss and say we're not going on deployment. We would end up in the brig. What can be done to help a married couple that has to endure separation?

I would really like to know. I don't think I'll be going on any more deployments but I've got another 3 years on my contract, anything can happen. If I get sent somewhere, should I just give up on the marriage?

Dr Harley would really like to know too. He typically tells people to do everything they can to get out of the military. At very least, make sure that you take your spouse on deployments.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MindMonkey
And it's a sacrifice simply because I'm not enthusiastic about it. Not yet at least. All I've known is this life and the great mystery of life after the military (and how well I'll adjust) is scary to me right now.
The choice really isn't all or nothing. There are many defense-related careers that could put your service experience to good use. You can work for a defense contractor or you can get a civilian DOD job. I worked as a civilian for the Navy for 30 years, and it didn't require nights apart from my wife.


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When I told our chaplain upon our D-Day of my husband's affair, he gently shook his head and said, "Look to the right of you; look to the left; it is all around you. You have no idea how many people come to me about affairs."

Until the problem of separation is solved by the military, infidelity will continue to be epidemic.

And it's not just the military - it's any job that requires travel.

Even for those who do not stray, at the very least, people live independent lives, of necessity. And there is little way to meet the needs of each other in any job that takes a spouse away either by way of travel or by too many hours of work.

Our daughter has great admiration for the military, always pointing out the people in uniform to her children. However, early into her adulthood, she refused to even consider dating a military man, because she didn't want the lifestyle. The military is a lifestyle choice.


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I�ll also note that Dr. Harley did not suggest she separate from me as some people are suggesting she does. He says I need to stop saying things that hurt her before she loses too much love for me. This is something I understand and continue to work on.
If you continue to treat her the way you have been, then Dr. Harley would definitely tell your wife to separate from you. The question is whether or not you're going to stop hurting her.


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MM did you have a chance to listen to the clips Brain provided for you?
What did you think?


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I am going to offer you some unsolicited advice. I hope that you are still around to read it.

From what your wife has posted, I believe a fairly clear pattern has developed. Whenever things start going well, you have a bout of depression that sabotages the recovery. Many of us have experienced similar things early in recovery. For me, it was as if allowing fresh air into my marriage was somehow disrespecting the depth of my pain. I felt that what had happened to me was so bad that my wife shouldn�t be feeling better so easily.

It is important in recovery to keep your eye on the goal. A fantastic romantic marriage is what you are after. Exactly how you get to that place from the place you are now is not half as important as that you eventually get there. There is no score to settle, here. There is no cost to be extracted. There is only the romantic relationship to build. You already know that it will take time, years in fact. It will require more effort from you than anything you have had to do before. Much of the reason why it is so hard is because you have to do so many things that go against your instincts. To begin with, you will have to allow pleasure in your relationship with your wife. Do not let the apparent unfairness of this pleasure torpedo it. It is the necessary first step to get you to the final goal of a recovered romantic marriage.


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I�m still around, if for nothing more than to see the advice my wife is getting.

Everything you said is true. Except I�m not trying to settle any score. Not anymore. I don�t want to punish her but it�s really hard to want to make her happy right now. It would be easy enough to do but wanting to is another story altogether. It just feels like I�m rewarding her, and after a few days I start to feel...pathetic. Petty, I know, but that�s where my head is.

So I [try to] keep out of her way and my mouth shut�withdrawal 101. Seems I can�t go into conflict without �abusing� her, so here I sit. It�s not a fun place to be, but it�s safe. She seems to like me here as well. That is unless someone has a magic formula to skip conflict and go straight to intimacy?

Didn�t think so.


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Seems I can�t go into conflict without �abusing� her, so here I sit.
When are you going to get your antidepressant meds adjusted?
When are you going to get into anger management?
In short, are you making plans to stop hurting your wife, or should she just move on?



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I'm not planning on adjusting meds or going into anger management.


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So you're not making plans to stop hurting your wife and she should just move on.


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MM,

Recovering a marriage after infidelity is harder than anything else you will ever do. I say this as a retired COL, married to a retired COL, who have had multiple deployments over our Army careers. My H had a drunken ONS shortly after returning from his first Iraq deployment and a 6 month EA/PA with an NCO during subsequent deployment. It was horrible and there was NOT ONE person outside of MB (to include our children) that thought I should stay in the marriage. However, I saw the potential of MB and together H and I built the marriage we both wanted to have. We are very much in love today.

Feelings follow actions. If it is "easy to make your wife happy", then do it. Certainly, in your Army career, you have done many things that you didn't feel like doing.

I really wonder about officers who are unwilling/unable to control their actions. Do you abuse your Soldiers as well if you don't feel like taking care of them?

AM


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That's not what I said or meant. I just don't have anger control issues that I cannot handle myself. And my ADs are actually working. I'm skeptical that there is special pill to make this all go away. I'm not trying something new (that may not work) at the expense of something that is working.


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What you're doing is not working.


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