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Originally Posted By: carsandkidz
I understand what you are saying indiegirl. The root cause of the affair isn't facebook, it's my wife's ability to set boundaries and stick to them, she identified this and is going to a counselor to learn how to change the way she views commitment and how to teach herself to stop. Facebook enabled her to cross boundaries, but so did homeowner's association meetings(where she met the OM), the gas station down the street(the only one close to the house), carpool line at the elementary school(the OM is unemployed and our kids go to the same school). To try to stop everything that enables her to make stupid decisions right now, she would have to lock herself in a closet with no phone, no computer, no tv, etc. and never go outside or talk to anyone because she has NO ability to stop doing dumb stuff.


She loves her kids, but put them in danger and compromised her most important values by driving them around after drinking and smoking around our oldest for several hours in our garage.

All that is to say, her issues are way more serious than just cheating on me with another man. She realized this at some point sunday afternoon, and to be honest, I don't know the first way to help her relearn the basics on how to stick with boundaries that uphold her basic moral beliefs.

All of our close friends and family, our entire support group communicates with each other through facebook, both hers and mine. We eliminated all friends of opposite sex for her, so what's left is a bunch of girls and our family members(both male and female). Our rule is, I always have her password and can sit on her FB account all day every day, if I want. There is a keylogger on our computer now, a nanny cam program on her phone and 250 friends and family that now know her warning signs and at least 200 of them, through the exposure, now want to help her keep this from ever happening. She is aware of all of this, is happy that it's in place. For the first time in the 12 years we've been together, she's talking to everyone about what happened, what's going to happen, why it happened, why it shouldn't have happened, how to keep it from happening ever again and she's asking for help from me, from our families, our friends, etc. She has always been closed off completely from everyone else, half closed off to me, so I believe this is a huge step.

I know it's still an extremely risky situation, more so with FB still alive but I'm hoping it's a double edged sword that can help hold her accountable for a while until we can move.



You are headed right into false recovery.

Change the way she views commitment?

She's drinking and partying and who knows what else with other men when she is apparently supposed to be watching little children.

This woman faces zero real accountability in her life and will not change until someone is hurt. Hopefully that means just a divorce and not getting into a car accident with your children in the car.

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I would put some keylogger on her phone also. Desktopshark has a phone app now I am sure.

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Originally Posted By: alis

You are headed right into false recovery.

Change the way she views commitment?

She's drinking and partying and who knows what else with other men when she is apparently supposed to be watching little children.

This woman faces zero real accountability in her life and will not change until someone is hurt. Hopefully that means just a divorce and not getting into a car accident with your children in the car.


I agree 100%.

C&K: If she has driven drunk with your kids in the car--and is still abusing alcohol--I would petition the court for a Protection from Abuse (PFA) order against her on behalf of your kids. She does not have the right to endanger their lives, or the lives of anyone else on the road. If that's what she has been doing, you need to find someone else to be the primary caregiver for your children while you are at work.

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Originally Posted By: carsandkidz
The root cause of the affair isn't facebook, it's my wife's ability to set boundaries and stick to them, she identified this and is going to a counselor to learn how to change the way she views commitment and how to teach herself to stop. Facebook enabled her to cross boundaries, but so did homeowner's association meetings(where she met the OM), the gas station down the street(the only one close to the house), carpool line at the elementary school(the OM is unemployed and our kids go to the same school).


Dr Harley does not recommend going to a counselor to psychoanalyze why WS's end up having affairs when they engage in risky behavior, you realize that, right? Instead he recommends eliminating opportunities for affair. It really is THAT simple.

Your W being on FB and interacting with men without you around should be eliminated, period.

I wouldn't go along with this plan, cars. Waywards love love love to pursue counseling....it's a wonderful way for them to avoid changing bad behavior.


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Counseling also doesn't hold the WS accountable for their action. Instead it becomes a huge excuse. For instance, a common excuse is childhood problems, abuse and etc. when the cause is KISS (keep it simple stupid) poor boundaries that lead to an open love bank. I wish you luck but at the same time your setting yourself up with a huge FR.

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Well, FB can't be gone. The wife won't shut it off. We just spent 5 days, 6 nights together with no FB, no phones, no kids, etc. That has put us in what seems like a good place, heard the words "I love you" for the first time in months and her actions toward me support the words, which means I'm making progress with my plan A.

If there is any good news with FB still in our lives, it is that she is only checking it maybe once a day. I like to think she will give it up completely soon, as she and I become interdependent again.

I am in the process of introducing the POJA, trying to work my way up to jointly working the MB program. We had a very simple conversation about the basic idea of the POJA, and she agrees it sounds good and wants to try it.

I don't want to create conflict with her right now, she's still going through withdrawal from the OM and I've made just enough deposits in her love bank for her to start feeling in love again. I know FB has to go, I'm going to have to keep working on getting us in a good enough place to make her want to do what it takes to meet my needs, hopefully that's not too far in our future.

We are selling our house, going to take about 3 weeks to get it ready to sell. We have also started house shopping, moving about 20 miles away from where we are, should eliminate the chance of contact with the OM. We are buying all new furniture, starting with the bed tomorrow, followed by the couch before we move.

By next month, the only trigger that might be left is facebook. Usage is down to almost nothing, when she doesn't think it is me being controlling and instead sees it for what it is, I will try to get her to give it up. I know it has to go away.

In the meantime, is there a good way to convince a stubborn woman who doesn't believe in "getting help" that the marriage builders program is worth working without undoing the little bit of progress we've made?

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You need to listen to ACTIONS and not WORDS. She has made a lot of words in her life but if she is unwilling to get rid of Facebook, it means she is not serious about recovery.

You are heading into false recovery. Whatever she SAYS doesn't change the fact that she is unwilling to protect your marriage still.

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She doesn't agree that facebook is a trigger. If she did, I believe she would quit facebook. Her actions and her words indicate that everything she believes is a trigger has been eliminated.

I have tried to reason this out to her but to no avail. So, I can run her off by demanding she quit facebook or disconnecting our internet, or I can find another way to bring her around to the truth as I know it.

It would seem the advice I get here says I'm better off running her off than trying to keep working on building up her love bank and getting her to embrace the MB program. I don't see the logic in that plan.

I DO appreciate all the advice, and I'm not jaded in believing my shaky relationship is anything close to affair proof right now. That being said, right now my wife is at home, looking at houses and texting or calling me every 20 or 30 minutes while I work. When I am with her, she doesn't want me to be anywhere but right next to her from the minute I walk in the door to the minute I leave for work. Every time one of our friends contacts her via text, email or phone, she tells me who, when, how, what they talked about, etc. She is smiling for the first time in 3 months and she has spent a total of 5 minutes on facebook in the last 3 days. She wants us to be strong, believes she is doing what it takes to be in love, rebuild our marriage better than it was and create a home life that will eliminate the unhappiness that led to her looking elsewhere. She doesn't know what ya'll know. I'm working on teaching her what I've learned and I believe that the more I can teach her, the more she will understand.

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It is your choice what to do, but you haven't done one of the most fundamental steps of affair recovery - removing the condition that facilitated the whole thing.

You can believe her if you wish, this is the same woman who married you and had affairs behind your back. So, while one day you may trust and verify her, now is NOT the time to do so. Right now, she has had plenty of time to chat on FB because you are not with her.

You are falling into the same trap as you have prior - doing nearly everything that Dr. Harley warns to NOT do, because it results in false recovery. I understand you don't want to drive her away - you are also demonstrating that you are willing to stay married no matter what, and that means even if she is going to have another affair or two. If she truly cared, she would be rid of it. She has not changed and you are ignoring that because you would rather listen to her words, not her actions. You are not standing up for yourself but again letting her dictate the terms. For women, this leads to a lack of respect and in her case, a continued behaviour. Women cannot respect men who do not take charge.

I wish you the best of luck but you are making classic mistakes, ones we see here all the time which typically return as false recoveries. Hopefully some past victims of false recovery will chime in soon to assist you.

Last edited by alis; 12/10/13 07:00 PM.
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She has put you through hell as a result of the extramarital affairs she began via Facebook. If she were truly remorseful and trying to do everything she possibly could to make you feel safe and secure in the relationship, the very first thing she would do would be to consent to your request to delete her Facebook account. If she genuinely wanted to spare you further anxiety, she would have closed her account without you even having to ask!

Dr. Harley says that if a spouse gives anything priority over the marriage, it could end up destroying the marriage. If your wife continues to prioritize her Facebook account over your marriage, your marriage will not survive. You've already seen proof of this for yourself. Why are you allowing it to continue?

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Originally Posted By: carsandkidz

I am in the process of introducing the POJA, trying to work my way up to jointly working the MB program. We had a very simple conversation about the basic idea of the POJA, and she agrees it sounds good and wants to try it.


This is a good start. It was exactly what I did. I introduced one piece of mb at a time so she could see the logic without it becoming overwhelming. FB is a problem still though. I hope you got some spyware on the pc and her phone. If its an android phone there is several apps you can actually find for free. Do a google search for free android spyware.

One step at a time... One day at a time.

Try and create some UA time where you listen to the daily radio show together. It helps tremendously and puts the concepts into a good logical perspective when you hear dr harley speak.

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The problem is this: you did not put your conditions in writing and stand firm with them. Since she has betrayed you in the worse way possible it would be perfectly fair and reasonable to expect her to meet the EP's that you set as a condition for her return. But if you are wishy washy, then those EP's get thrown out the window and you are back where you started.

This program works when the participants set clear expectations and those expectations are not compromised.

Whether you agree to do it or not, POJA is there. Either you do it or you don't. You are not doing it with respect to the issue of Facebook, and that is a problem for your marriage.

In the education we say that the first days of school are the most important because that is when the teacher lays down the law and sets clear expectations. Teachers who don't do this during the first days of school get walked all over for the rest of the school year. Not holding the WW accountable to EP's that you have set is analogous to a rookie teacher not laying out the rules and enforcing them early on. Prepare for the worst if you don't.

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Originally Posted By: carsandkidz
She doesn't agree that facebook is a trigger. If she did, I believe she would quit facebook. Her actions and her words indicate that everything she believes is a trigger has been eliminated.



When I was a practicing alcoholic I also did not believe that alcohol was a problem. It was because I was not willing to give up my first love, which made recovery of my marriage impossible. I also believed that I was a great driver while drunk. Would you have allowed me to drive because I didn't agree drunk driving was a problem? It is the same with facebook. Your wife has now had 2 affairs so it is entirely unreasonable of YOU to even be negotiating this issue. Extraordinary precautions are not negotiable because they are intended to prevent another affair.

Her actions indicate that she is not serious about recovery of your marriage or she would eliminate the source of her LAST TWO affairs.

Your wife is very likely on facebook all day long and is going through these window dressing motions to get you off her back. I am sorry you have chosen to enable your wife.:(


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: MrNiceGuy
[
This is a good start. It was exactly what I did. I introduced one piece of mb at a time so she could see the logic without it becoming overwhelming. FB is a problem still though. I hope you got some spyware on the pc and her phone. If its an android phone there is several apps you can actually find for free. Do a google search for free android spyware.

One step at a time... One day at a time.



Recovery after an affair is not "one step at a time." Extraordinary precautions to affair proof a marriage are not negotiable.

Here is the list as outlined by Dr Harley and he has NEVER EVER suggested it is "one step at a time." That is dangerous advice to be giving to someone who has just ended an affair.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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**EDIT**

Last edited by Mizar; 12/11/13 12:06 PM. Reason: TOS: disruptive
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Originally Posted By: Justthe3ofus
Whether you agree to do it or not, POJA is there. Either you do it or you don't. You are not doing it with respect to the issue of Facebook, and that is a problem for your marriage.


Justthe3ofus: I thought that basic EPs were not subject to POJA. If that correct, why do you think the Facebook EP is negotiable?

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Originally Posted By: JessicaClaire
Originally Posted By: Justthe3ofus
Whether you agree to do it or not, POJA is there. Either you do it or you don't. You are not doing it with respect to the issue of Facebook, and that is a problem for your marriage.


Justthe3ofus: I thought that basic EPs were not subject to POJA. If that correct, why do you think the Facebook EP is negotiable?



I think Justthe3ofus is stating that irregardless of Extraordinary Precautions, we do not engage in activity that harms our spouse.
So if one spouse does not agree to having a facebook account, then it should be deleted per the POJA

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Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Originally Posted By: JessicaClaire
Originally Posted By: Justthe3ofus
Whether you agree to do it or not, POJA is there. Either you do it or you don't. You are not doing it with respect to the issue of Facebook, and that is a problem for your marriage.


Justthe3ofus: I thought that basic EPs were not subject to POJA. If that correct, why do you think the Facebook EP is negotiable?



I think Justthe3ofus is stating that irregardless of Extraordinary Precautions, we do not engage in activity that harms our spouse.
So if one spouse does not agree to having a facebook account, then it should be deleted per the POJA


I thought the default condition for failure to POJA was to take no action. If that were applied here, they would have to take no action, which means her FB account would remain active. (That's one of the reasons I questioned the recommendation to subject the Facebook EP to POJA...)

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