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Originally Posted by Ernie78
Originally Posted by SusieQ
She doesn't need to read it together with you. You need to study it as if your M depends on it, though.

Thanks; I know this is true. I'll have to figure out a way to find the time somehow.

Excellent - this is what Elaina needs to hear.

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Originally Posted by markos
That is an amazingly cavalier and nonchalant attitude about the PAIN and suffering that you are causing your wife. Every word uttered to defend yourself is going to be offensive to her. "I'm just learning" - doesn't help the hurt. It makes it worse.

I don't believe I realized that. I am not "just learning" though - I am not making excuses, I am making real measurable progress. It gives me hope to jeep moving forward.

Good - you sound like you are listening a little more now, so I hope you will be following up on these recommendations. It's the hope that Elaina needs.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Ernie78
Originally Posted by markos
For crying out loud, she hurts like hell,

I do too, my man.

I hurt like hell right now, as well... and I don't know if anyone can tell I am.


I really feel like no ones cares if I am hurting like hell, as well.

I have been in a situation that is an awful lot like yours, and I probably have a pretty good idea of how you are feeling.

The solution is for you to take the lead in eliminating the abusive behaviors. Don't ever let her Love Busters become an excuse for you to not eliminate yours. It is imperative that if one person breaks the MB rules, the spouse doesn't respond by becoming demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

BTW, as you are reading Love Busters, look for the answer to this question:
What is Dr. Harley's recommended way for a couple to exchange information about Love Busters that occur?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by markos
Excellent - this is what Elaina needs to hear.

Good - you sound like you are listening a little more now, so I hope you will be following up on these recommendations. It's the hope that Elaina needs.

Woooo hooo! Some words of encouragement!! Thanks!!

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Originally Posted by Ernie78
Originally Posted by markos
I'm not sure what good the advice will do if you don't act on it. You need to be learning how to recognize and eliminate disrespect rather than arguing that you are really not such a bad guy.

This can't be a thing you are perpetually working on and struggle with. You have to actually succeed at this.

Thanks - but Dude, I am working hard on being a better husband in this marriage, it's just really hard to get over so many bad habits learned over the years. I can try to get perfect overnight, but it isn't easy. I feel like I got a really good hold on my AO's really quickly once I realized just how much damage I was doing, and it still takes energy and effort to make that be a success as well...

I don't think anybody knows that better than me, to be frank. smile But Steve Harley's comment to me was "Don't expect to be praised for eliminating Love Busters. People typically don't go around blowing a trumpet and singing their own praises for the fact that they stopped being disrespectful and angry toward their wife." The real success comes when you have established safety and are finally able to provide care (meet emotional needs). When your wife is consistently safe from you and you are meeting her emotional needs consistently you will get a lot of admiration from her, and probably quite a bit from us.

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Changing bad habits really drains a lot out of a person. The only thing I ask is for patience as I am improving, and I get that from Elaina (bless her heart) ... and I hope it isn't too much to ask for a little patience from y'all as well.

Don't ask us to cut you any slack, Ernie. Ask us to hold you accountable.

"Gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice." What that means is, if you aim at making gradual improvement, things will stay the same, so you need to aim at perfection. It's the only way to make even gradual improvement possible.

Taking this seriously requires reaching for the absolute standard: NO love busters.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Ernie78
Here's an analogy to explain how I feel about it:
If you break the speed limit, you get a ticket and usually pay a fine. Most people don't really try to break the speed limit, they just do sometimes because they aren't paying close enough attention. The fine hurts to get, but it isn't a death sentence.

There are no states giving the death sentence to speeders, so I get really confused when people accuse me of murder on here, when I just wasn't watching the speedometer as closely as I should have, that's all.

This analogy was basically a way of saying that the disrespect you show your wife isn't so bad. It's a minor thing, like speeding.

That's a big part of the problem, here. You think disrespect is a minor thing. It's not like speeding - it's a major thing.

Don't try to persuade people that your offenses aren't so bad. Instead, learn how to eliminate your offending behavior, like the rest of us have done or are doing.

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I understand I have had to pay an occasional fine (LB withdrawls) because I was speeding (DJ's -still learning those) but I really don't believe I deserve a death penalty.

This is an argument for some tolerance for some love busters in marriage. Dr. Harley's position is that if you don't eliminate the love busters, your marriage doesn't stand a chance. And he's right!

Don't do like I did, Ernie - I posted here for three years before I finally took the problem seriously and decided that Prisca should not have to put up with an occasional love buster from me.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Ernie78
Here's an analogy to explain how I feel about it:
If you break the speed limit, you get a ticket and usually pay a fine. Most people don't really try to break the speed limit, they just do sometimes because they aren't paying close enough attention. The fine hurts to get, but it isn't a death sentence.

There are no states giving the death sentence to speeders, so I get really confused when people accuse me of murder on here, when I just wasn't watching the speedometer as closely as I should have, that's all.

This analogy was basically a way of saying that the disrespect you show your wife isn't so bad. It's a minor thing, like speeding.

That's a big part of the problem, here. You think disrespect is a minor thing. It's not like speeding - it's a major thing.
Dr Harley describes anger as enormously destructive to a marriage. He says that other problems cannot be dealt with if anger is present.

To post your analogy correctly: anger is as serious as murder to a marriage.In fact, it IS murder to a marriage..


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Originally Posted by Ernie78
Originally Posted by Prisca
Are angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements abuse?

Sure they are, but spouses separating seems like death sentence to the family structure. I believe in cases of extreme abuse it is warranted.

(BTW: I have my AO's under control, please see: #2767789 - 11/23/13 11:59 PM -
Originally Posted by Elaina7
No AO's and he is trying to be sweet.

If you will read Love Busters closely, any attempt to punish your spouse is classified by Dr. Harley as an angry outburst.

Given that you were giving your wife grief over what she posted here, I would say you still have a way to go on eliminating angry outbursts.

Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts are all a continuum or spectrum of abusive behavior. Frequently one leads right into the other. Sometimes a behavior might be on the border and we might debate about which of the three it really is - but a more productive thing to do is to eliminate all three.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Ernie78
Here's an analogy to explain how I feel about it:
If you break the speed limit, you get a ticket and usually pay a fine. Most people don't really try to break the speed limit, they just do sometimes because they aren't paying close enough attention. The fine hurts to get, but it isn't a death sentence.

There are no states giving the death sentence to speeders, so I get really confused when people accuse me of murder on here, when I just wasn't watching the speedometer as closely as I should have, that's all.

This analogy was basically a way of saying that the disrespect you show your wife isn't so bad. It's a minor thing, like speeding.

That's a big part of the problem, here. You think disrespect is a minor thing. It's not like speeding - it's a major thing.
Dr Harley describes anger as enormously destructive to a marriage. He says that other problems cannot be dealt with if anger is present.

To post your analogy correctly: anger is as serious as murder to a marriage.In fact, it IS murder to a marriage..

Yes!

Ernie, you need to start regarding your demands, disrespect, and anger as more like murder than like speeding. That is what "taking it seriously" means. It is serious, and not a thing to be minimized. Demands, disrespect, and anger will KILL a marriage.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by markos
Demands, disrespect, and anger will KILL a marriage...

I think you forgot to add "...no matter how small".

That has been one of the hardest concepts for me to grasp. I had always just assumed small ones were going to happen no matter what and are unavoidable, so they didn't belong in the same category as the large ones.

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Originally Posted by Ernie78
Originally Posted by markos
Demands, disrespect, and anger will KILL a marriage...

I think you forgot to add "...no matter how small".

That has been one of the hardest concepts for me to grasp. I had always just assumed small ones were going to happen no matter what and are unavoidable, so they didn't belong in the same category as the large ones.

That's right, Ernie. You're starting to see how important this is.

(Find a time to listen to that radio show every day. You need to have a lot of exposure to this thinking to get these ideas fully accepted in your mind - that way, your logic and your reasoning and your understanding will be able to give you a reason to override your emotions when you are feeling emotional and wanting to let loose with demands, disrespect, or anger.)


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by markos
You need to have a lot of exposure to this thinking to get these ideas fully accepted in your mind - that way, your logic and your reasoning and your understanding will be able to give you a reason to override your emotions when you are feeling emotional and wanting to let loose with demands, disrespect, or anger.)

This is exceptionally good advice!

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Originally Posted by Ernie78
Originally Posted by markos
You need to have a lot of exposure to this thinking to get these ideas fully accepted in your mind - that way, your logic and your reasoning and your understanding will be able to give you a reason to override your emotions when you are feeling emotional and wanting to let loose with demands, disrespect, or anger.)

This is exceptionally good advice!

I think so, too - it's a blatant rip-off from Dr. Harley's son, Steve Harley, who told me exactly that on a paid call.

Passed along to you for free. smile


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Thanks to everyone who has made an effort to give me good advice on helping me save my marriage. I do appreciate all you have done, and I am grateful.

Goodbye.

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Originally Posted by Ernie78
Goodbye.

That kind of sounds like the opposite of my suggestion:

Originally Posted by markos
You need to be here every day learning and working this program, Ernie. There's a radio show being broadcast every week day. There's other threads you should be reading and posting on to learn to recognize disrespect so you can stop doing it.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777262#Post2777262

I can't see any reason why you should be bidding the board goodbye if you are still planning to do the work.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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I was thinking of maybe just being a "lurker" or "viewer" instead of posting further. I still plan to do the work, but I'd rather leave gracefully before I get banned. My wife saw this and text'd me a little after noon and said "I don't want you to give up the MB forum".

I haven't decided yet if staying here as a poster is a good idea or not. I want to honor my wife's wishes, and I get some really good advice... but at the same time it still feels very hostile being here. I find my self being very drained and pulled down far more than energized and lifted up after being on here... that isn't helpful to me, though. (Especially after the "tush-reaming" I got from the DCMA guys today, it will be a while before I untuck my tail from between my legs... we are a poster child for workplace hostility, here at this aerospace place).

People tend to gravitate towards the things that help them up and shy away from the things that tear them down, so that is why I am debating on whether I should stay here (as a poster) or not. It is difficult to feel like I should continue on here when I feel perpetually torn down.

I got up to page 45 in LB yesterday afternoon, I am fixin' to leave work now and go read some more.


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Ernie,

I have family in the aerospace industry too. So I can understand a bit about the frustrations there.

Please stay and get help. I'm fairly new, but I have seen progress in your posts since you have been here. Markos, among many others, is here and willing to help you. But you must take the first steps to change.

Please show your wife respectful support as she posts in the forum. She needs to hear that from you, and she needs to see it.

You can do this!


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I too have seen progress from the beginning of your thread as well.

***EDIT***

LTL

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Originally Posted by Ernie78
I was thinking of maybe just being a "lurker" or "viewer" instead of posting further. I still plan to do the work, but I'd rather leave gracefully before I get banned. My wife saw this and text'd me a little after noon and said "I don't want you to give up the MB forum".

I haven't decided yet if staying here as a poster is a good idea or not. I want to honor my wife's wishes, and I get some really good advice... but at the same time it still feels very hostile being here. I find my self being very drained and pulled down far more than energized and lifted up after being on here... that isn't helpful to me, though. (Especially after the "tush-reaming" I got from the DCMA guys today, it will be a while before I untuck my tail from between my legs... we are a poster child for workplace hostility, here at this aerospace place).

People tend to gravitate towards the things that help them up and shy away from the things that tear them down, so that is why I am debating on whether I should stay here (as a poster) or not. It is difficult to feel like I should continue on here when I feel perpetually torn down.

I got up to page 45 in LB yesterday afternoon, I am fixin' to leave work now and go read some more.
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but I'd rather leave gracefully before I get banned. My wife saw this and text'd me a little after noon and said "I don't want you to give up the MB forum".

And we don't want you to leave either.

You are not in jeopardy of being banned. Bans are not initiated at the "suggestion" of members.

If the moderators have a concern with your posts, they will usually contact you via email to personally discuss any issues.

And , just as a reminder to ALL members-- be SURE we have a current, working email address for you. UPDATE your email addresses!!
Thank you,

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Originally Posted by Ernie78
Originally Posted by Prisca
Are angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements abuse?

Sure they are, but spouses separating seems like death sentence to the family structure. I believe in cases of extreme abuse it is warranted.

(BTW: I have my AO's under control, please see: #2767789 - 11/23/13 11:59 PM -
Originally Posted by Elaina7
No AO's and he is trying to be sweet.

Here's an analogy to explain how I feel about it:
If you break the speed limit, you get a ticket and usually pay a fine. Most people don't really try to break the speed limit, they just do sometimes because they aren't paying close enough attention. The fine hurts to get, but it isn't a death sentence.

There are no states giving the death sentence to speeders, so I get really confused when people accuse me of murder on here, when I just wasn't watching the speedometer as closely as I should have, that's all.

I understand I have had to pay an occasional fine (LB withdrawls) because I was speeding (DJ's -still learning those) but I really don't believe I deserve a death penalty.


You are forgetting that entirely aside from the punishment handed out that speeding sometimes hurts people. If you speed on the road, you might kill. If you abuse in your marriage (even if it is unintentional!) you might kill it.

Separation is not a punishment, it is taking your 'license' to comunicate off you for a while to make sure you don't kill your wife's love for you.

Originally Posted by Ernie78
It's just that... well, the info she posts on here sure seems very, very different to me than what is really going on, that's all. I guess that is why I can get so confused and wondering why she says the things that she does sometimes, because it seems like it doesn't coincide with what is happening in our marriage and home. I don't want to call her an outright liar, but it just reminds me of the old saying: "There's three sides to every story- your side, my side, and the truth".


I think this is the heart of the matter. You seem to think you should have the same PoV, which is impossible. This is where your lack of perception lies which is causing all this 'speeding'.

Men and women see EVERYTHING very, very differently! Elaina's perspective is hugely valuable because it tells you what not only what SHE thinks, but how importantly SHE rates it.

But most of all Elaina's perpective is opposite which means she can see all the things in YOUR blind spot.

I found the hot dog story very interesting. How you didn't see that a hot dog rolling was a big deal, but that she sees the need for more calm and control in your responses.

She is capable of seeing things you cannot. Just as you can see all the things she cannot. That's PoJA.

Remember:

Elaina is a DIFFERENT person to you!
She has different thoughts, feelings and perceptions!
These differences must be RESPECTED, ok?
When you get really advanced, you move on to valuing her differences, but baby steps...


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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