Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Nowheremann
She seems to be of the opinion that my wife is going through things rooted in her less than perfect childhood, a rebelious phase that never took place in her youth because of her family situation.


Your counselor does not have the slightest idea what she is doing. This type of advice comes from counselors who are not equipped to deal with infidelity.

Your wife's childhood is not the problem and is a distraction from present day problems. We know why your wife had her affair: she has poor boundaries around men and allowed another man to meet her needs. As such, she fell in love with him.

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

"An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them."
here

Quote:
She noted that it's very clear that we love and care about each other on a very deep level and mainatain a very strong connection inspite of the current situation.


Your wife may feel caring love for you but that won't keep a marriage together. As you can see for yourself. Your wife is not "in love" with you. She is "in love" with another man.

Once again, your counselor does not understand the dynamics of an affair and doesn't know what keeps a marriage together. Couples stay together when they are IN LOVE.

Quote:
It was also noted that my wife does not seem to "love" OM and continues to refer to it as "having strong feelings for", but doesn't know what the feelings are. She's desperately seeking validation from him, and while she knows it's bad and that he's bad for her, she can't stop.


She is more than in love with him, she is ADDICTED to him. Asking your wife how she feels is like asking a falling down drunk how they feel about alcohol. You will get the same type of incoherent answer you got above. We can tell you EXACTLY how she feels about him. She is so deeply in love and so deeply addicted to him that she is willing to sacrifice everything good in life to be with him.

Please do yourself a favor and get your hands on the book Surviving an Affair so you can understand the dynamics of an affair. Write Dr Harley an email and get his input. If you include your phone # he will call you. Listen to people who understand infidelity. Your counselor does not. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Dr Harley defines the different types of "love" here:

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"Love, however, is a different matter, and Ive seen many different ways to define it. I define love as applied to marriage in two ways: (1) romantic love which is the feeling of incredible attraction to someone and (2) caring love which is meeting someones needs. When youre in love, you feel something, and when you care, you do something."

<snip>

"Romantic love, my first definition of love, is created when someone makes massive Love Bank deposits by meeting important emotional needs. When an account is high enough to breach the romantic love threshold, a feeling of incredible attraction is reached. If those deposits continue, and withdrawals dont threaten to reduce the balance significantly, romantic love is experienced indefinitely. Ive been in love with Joyce for the entire 46 years that weve been married because shes kept her account in the stratosphere."

Quote:
"My second definition of love, caring love, makes unconditional love seem possible. Technically, I could try to meet my wifes emotional needs without condition. But could I do it indefinitely, and would it be a good idea?
here

It is romantic love that your wife feels for the OM. Dr. Harley explains why he focuses on restoring romantic love to the marriage, unlike other counselors:

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
"The difference between my approach to saving marriages, and the approach of most other therapists, is that I focus on building romantic love (being "in love") between spouses, rather than simply focusing on conflict resolution. As it turns out, I also address conflict resolution, but I do it in a way that builds love between spouses.

Since most marital therapists fail to address the romantic love issue when they try to help couples, their approach to conflict resolution usually fails to build love, and as a result, the couples divorce, even after "resolving" some of their conflicts."
here

My point is that caring love won't keep a marriage together. This is what your wife feels for you. But you already know this. Couples that are "in love" [romantic love] don't get divorced, though.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 296
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 296
You need to listen to the advice here if you want to have any shot at saving your Marriage.

You have already seen the OM does not want to leave his GF but also want to keep his mistresss(your wife). Who wouldn't? That is some deal. You need to expose to his GF, give her any proof you have and ask her to help you end the A to save both of your relationships. This will not end on its own.

You need to tell the HR dept that if they don't step in you will take legal action against them. Also, you need to expose to all friends and family that have influence over your W and provide proof.

There is nothing else you can do at this point.

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 22
N
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
N
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 22
I disagree. Her issues are very much at the forefront of the situation, particularly when it comes to figuring out what needs he is actually fulfilling for her, and how.

When treating addiction, you don't simply replace one substance with another without dealing with the issues that cause a person to turn to the substance in the first place.

And yes, she is most certainly addicted, although I don't buy that addiction is nearly the same as "romantic love". If that was the case, the parrallel drawn would be that an addict would be "in love" with his dealer.

Again, I appreciate your responses and hope that my disagreements and counterpointing don't offend, it is simply how I process information.


"Love me when I least deserve it, for that is when I need it most."
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,783
Likes: 1
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,783
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Nowheremann

And yes, she is most certainly addicted, although I don't buy that addiction is nearly the same as "romantic love". If that was the case, the parrallel drawn would be that an addict would be "in love" with his dealer.


Nope, the parallel would be that an addict would be 'in love' with his addictive substance and sometimes they actually use that terminology. I know an addict who describes his heroin as 'my best friend'.


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 296
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 296
We don't take offence to your disagreements, you are welcome to have them as its your relationship. But, the advice you are being given and state of mind come from Dr. Harley's MB program that has been developed for over 40 years.

Dr H has over 40 years of sampling data to know what works and what doesn't work. Counseling for personal issues is fine, but rationalizing your WW's behavior because of personal issues is absolutely the wrong thing to do. When treating an addict for alcohol or drugs you do not keep all the conditions in place that enabled their addiction. Most people go through detox forcefully, then go to a sober living facility to learn a lifestyle that makes it impossible to continue their addiction. Nobody is encouraged to go back into the same way of living that enabled their addictions.

If you don't take Dr. Harley's advice that is being given to you here, it will be disastrous for you and your Marriage. Its your choice and we will be here to help with the MB's program but we wont pat you on the back for not following the program. We have seen the success of those who follow the program and the failure of those who don't.

Read some of the threads and see how the program has worked for others. Read wifedivorcing's thread, his WW was an extreme case and even she is beginning to show promise because he followed the program.

Good luck, nobody here wants you to fail but its up to you.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Nowheremann
I disagree. Her issues are very much at the forefront of the situation, particularly when it comes to figuring out what needs he is actually fulfilling for her, and how.


Her "issues" are a distraction from the real problems. Examining her childhood will not help anything.

Quote:
When treating addiction, you don't simply replace one substance with another without dealing with the issues that cause a person to turn to the substance in the first place.


We KNOW the issue that led to her addiction and it was not her "childhood." It was her poor boundaries around men. When treating addiction, you first separate the addict from the source of his addiction. That is the first step to recovery.


Quote:
And yes, she is most certainly addicted, although I don't buy that addiction is nearly the same as "romantic love". If that was the case, the parrallel drawn would be that an addict would be "in love" with his dealer.


You don't buy this because you have no understanding about what you are dealing with. You have defined all the elements of romantic love but since you don't understand it, you don't recognize it. I hope you have the ability to put aside your false notions and listen because you haves made dreadful mistakes all along the way.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,806
Likes: 7
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,806
Likes: 7
Reposting for emphasis - this is the advice of Dr. Harley, clinical psychologist with over 40 years of experience not just in marriage counseling but also running a large chain of mental health clinics in Minnesota treating a wide variety of issues. If anybody knows counseling, it is Dr. Harley. Dr. Harley is also the creator of the Marriage Builders program, so if you are here, we presume you are interested in hearing his approach:

Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

"An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them."
here


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 22
N
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
N
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 22
Originally Posted By: txstunnedman

You need to tell the HR dept that if they don't step in you will take legal action against them.


What is the legal action? This is something I have been searching for since they first expressed that "even if they are having an affair, it doesn't matter because it's not happening here."

----------------
Please don't take disagreeing as not accepting, listening to, or even following the advice. I appreciate every little bit I am getting, whether or not I disagree, as it allows me to better understand it all.

I am very much aware that ending the affair is what needs to happen, but again, the only thing that will likely do it is removing 1 or both from the job, which I have been unable to do because it would seem that nobody cares about it.

Her family knows, her friends know. She doesn't listen to either and again, the toxic circle she hangs out with are work friends and they seem to prefer to keep her drunk, they also seem to think Wife and OM are saints.

The feelings Wife expresses for other man have not been that of love. She feels used, has stated she hates how he makes her feel, wants him dead, to be punished because she's given up everything and he's nice and cozy in his life, and so on. He treats her like dirt and tosses a scrap every now and then, reeling her back in. I have a difficult time understanding how this meshes with "romantic love" as defined by Dr. Harley.

There seems to be very little being made as far as deposits and a great deal being withdrawn, which would lead me to believe that either the definition of romantic love is incorrect, or it doesn't always apply, which I begin to wonder about as I'm not sure how I fit into the definitions if I am still very much "in love" with my wife despite the current situation.

Again, this is not to start an argument, simply to better understand the theories and ideas from people who have been familiar with them longer.

It has been my theory that wife is much more "in love" with her job than either myself or OM, as it seems to be what actually provides her with fulfillment of her emotional needs. Unfortunately, keeping job means being "with" him and that has been a serious issue between us since her first indiscretion.


"Love me when I least deserve it, for that is when I need it most."
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 11,239
Where does it end?
At what point will you draw a line in the sand?

Does she have you shop for lingerie that he may like her to wear?
Should you buy the condoms for him?

When is it enough?

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Nowheremann
Again, this is not
to start an argument, simply to better understand the theories and ideas from people who have been familiar with them longer.

.


I don't see that you are trying to understand at all, but rather trying to inject your own pre-formed opinions. Lets hope that you can put aside those views and keep an open mind. Otherwise, most people won't waste much time with you. If you are here to learn, you will get lots of help. If you are here to debate the very basics, then you are wasting your time and ours.

The definition of romantic love is an incredible emotional attraction to a person of the opposite sex.[or same sex if one is so inclined] That is what your wife feels for the OM. She is very much in love with him, which explains the addiction. Just as an alocholic is "in love" with alcohol, your wife is "in love" with the OM. I understand you might not want to accept that and it really makes no difference in the larger scheme of things.

I don't believe you have a good understanding of the dynamics of an affair and believe that reading the book Surviving an Affair will help you tremendously. This lack of understanding has greatly hampered your ability to save your marriage, IMO. The book will also prepare you to go into Plan B by explaining the purpose and the tactics.

Quote:

What is the legal action? This is something I have been searching for since they first expressed that "even if they are having an affair, it doesn't matter because it's not happening here."


There have been some legal cases across the country where the betrayed spouse has sued the company of the wayward spouse for facilitating a workplace affair. You would need to check with an attorney in your state and find out if you have grounds.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Nowheremann
[The feelings Wife expresses for other man have not been that of love. She feels used, has stated she hates how he makes her feel, wants him dead, to be punished because she's given up everything and he's nice and cozy in his life, and so on. He treats her like dirt and tosses a scrap every now and then, reeling her back in. I have a difficult time understanding how this meshes with "romantic love" as defined by Dr. Harley.



The reason you don't understand it is because you don't understand the dynamics of an affair, which is an addiction that is fueled by romantic love. The feelings you describe above would very aptly apply to an alcoholic:

Quote:
she hates how the alcohol makes her feel, wants to be dead, to be punished because she's given up everything, and so on. The booze treats her like dirt and tosses a scrap every now and then, reeling her back in.


That is exactly how an alcoholic feels. It is a love/hate relationship. While alcohol is an inanimate object unlike an affair, an alcoholic feels incredible, overpowering LOVE for alcohol that supercedes everything else in life.

That is how your wife feels about the OM: an incredible romantic love that has reached the level of addiction.

You need to equate her affair to a substance addiction in order to understand it. It is an incredible, overpowering LOVE. In an affair, that love is romantic love.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 22
N
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
N
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 22
You're free to think what you like, but I am learning a great deal through this process, and while I will likely continue to disagree with some things, I have an open mind about all of it.

I have also gone about this process in very much the way it has been suggested, although again I was late to this approach and the results have been shielded by the disbelief of the exposure targets.

Regardless of terminology, I am very much aware of the issues of the addiction, but am curious how one can return to a position of making love deposits and avoid making withdraws throughout exposure and the aftermath, as well as with Plan B. Ending the affair would seem to be rather destructive to the love bank if she is truly in love with OM.


"Love me when I least deserve it, for that is when I need it most."
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,650
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,650
You aren't understanding, her lovebank is closed to you. The point of Plan A is to make minimal deposits through change and thoughtful acts aka caring. In your Plan A you need to make permanent changes that can be sustainable. It also means you need to kill the affair and exposure is the quickest way possible. Will she be mad? For sure but in the long run it will open up more chances for LB deposits on your end. Once the affair is exposed (truth) the AP and the wayward spouse will fight. As the AP is draining lovebank $$ you will be adding. Eventually you will be higher than the AP and a more viable option for your WS. WS are selfish and only think about themselves and will go to the path of least resistance.

Plan B is for YOU! To protect your love bank from withdrawals of her affair. Because affairs are devastating. You are overthinking and making excuses instead of acting. If someone is dying and bleeding out you don't explain why direct pressure works, you just do it. Otherwise, they die. Afterwards when alll the chaos has cleared you explain it and they grasp it.

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,432
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,432
Originally Posted By: Nowheremann
Regardless of terminology, I am very much aware of the issues of the addiction, but am curious how one can return to a position of making love deposits and avoid making withdraws throughout exposure and the aftermath, as well as with Plan B. Ending the affair would seem to be rather destructive to the love bank if she is truly in love with OM.
Each person has a separate account in the love bank. Your objective is to deplete and close the OM's account, and re-establish the preeminence of you own account. You can make no substantiative deposits as long as the OM's account is open. Your account will remain closed. The affair must end for his account to close and your account to reopen. This is the first step. Don't you see that?


me-65
wife-61
married for 40 years
DS - 38, autistic, lives at home
DD - 37, married and on her own
DS - 32, still living with us
Darkguy #2798056 04/22/14 12:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 22
N
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
N
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 22
Originally Posted By: TranquilDark
You aren't understanding, her lovebank is closed to you. The point of Plan A is to make minimal deposits through change and thoughtful acts aka caring. In your Plan A you need to make permanent changes that can be sustainable. It also means you need to kill the affair and exposure is the quickest way possible. Will she be mad? For sure but in the long run it will open up more chances for LB deposits on your end. Once the affair is exposed (truth) the AP and the wayward spouse will fight. As the AP is draining lovebank $$ you will be adding. Eventually you will be higher than the AP and a more viable option for your WS. WS are selfish and only think about themselves and will go to the path of least resistance.

Plan B is for YOU! To protect your love bank from withdrawals of her affair. Because affairs are devastating. You are overthinking and making excuses instead of acting.


Thank you, that is one part I'm trying to understand. How does one know if the bank is "open" so to speak? They have been fighting, but she ends up giving in to every half assed story he feeds her.


"Love me when I least deserve it, for that is when I need it most."
Darkguy #2798057 04/22/14 12:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 296
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 296
Right on TD. Your LB doesn't matter as long as the A is ongoing. Yours is closed for business and her LB is only open for the OM. You need to disrupt their fantasy and force his hand so he can love bust and deplete his LB balance.

You already said, he doesn't want to leave his wife/gf, this will cause huge problems in Affair Fantasy land when your WW implores him to do so and when the A is out for everyone to see.

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 296
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 296
Its because she is 'in love' with him. She wants to believe him because she wants to be in love because his balance in her LB is soo high, she can't help it.

You need to do everything to cause trouble and cause LB withdrawls so that she can stop caring so much. Remember she wants the fantasy, not the problems of a real relationship.

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 296
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 296
Originally Posted By: txstunnedman
Your LB doesn't matter as long as the A is ongoing. Yours is closed for business and her LB is only open for the OM.



Quoted for emphasis.


D-Day 1 - May 4, 2012

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Nowheremann
You're free to think what you like, but I am learning a great deal through this process, and while I will likely continue to disagree with some things, I have an open mind about all of it.

I have also gone about this process in very much the way it has been suggested, although again I was late to this approach and the results have been shielded by the disbelief of the exposure targets.

Regardless of terminology, I am very much aware of the issues of the addiction, but am curious how one can return to a position of making love deposits and avoid making withdraws throughout exposure and the aftermath, as well as with Plan B. Ending the affair would seem to be rather destructive to the love bank if she is truly in love with OM.


The way you make deposits is to kill the affair. Until you do that her love bank is closed to you. It is just like the alcoholic, he has to FIRST sober up before he can do the steps.

You might disagree, but I would just point out that you have no basis to do so. Your own methods have not worked for you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 22 guests, and 66 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mwid, Shepherd, alg, Pelican89, SRL
71,672 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,526
Posts2,322,550
Members71,673
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5