This is a free way to talk to the Harleys.

This is a very common question about POJA. You can read the answer here: Resentment Type A and Type B

That's a specific case of a pretty specific problem. Dr. Harley calls it Type A and Type B resentment. There are some threads and radio shows about it here on this site somewhere.

Suppose I'm going to feel resentful because something I want to do would bother my wife Prisca. The solution is to find something else that I would like to do, that she would be enthusiastic about.

As an example, suppose I want to go to a baseball game. But Prisca doesn't like baseball - and she doesn't want to stay home being the babysitter so that I can enjoy a ball game. We talk for awhile and come up with an alternative we both love: I will take our oldest sons to a football game and she will stay home with the rest of the children with a DVD I will bring them, along with some popcorn and snacks for a fun movie night. Or, we decide to get a babysitter, and we go together to a basketball game. (I use sports in this example, but in real life Prisca and I don't like any sports, so I guarantee you we would be looking for some other solution here besides any of those I've proposed.)

Or, let's say I would like to bed the secretary at work. Prisca isn't enthusiastic about that because it would hurt her terribly. I'll be resentful if I don't go, though, so we discuss an alternative. I propose that Prisca will make love to me more often. But she's not enthusiastic about that - I've been neglecting her and she doesn't feel like being intimate with me. So, we arrange to start spending a lot more time together, with me meeting her emotional needs, knowing that eventually after she falls in love with me again she will want to meet my sexual needs. Obviously I'd never even propose having sex with someone else because the very idea would be insanely hurtful to Prisca, but this very extreme example points out the kind of alternative that people ought to be looking for in this kind of scenario: get your emotional needs met by your spouse - make your spouse your friend.

In both of my hypothetical examples (VERY hypothetical) I'd be resentful if I don't get what I'm looking for - but an alternative can be found that I will be just as happy about. If I start out with the view that I have to have this one thing or else I will never be happy, I will prevent the negotiation that would have allowed us to find an alternative, because I'll be too busy insisting there is no alternative.

I suspect a number of marriages have been saved from people taking up BrainHurts on this suggestion when she posts it.

Isn't she great? She beat me to it.

Thank you to everyone for your continued support. I am sure I'll have more questions to come.

Yes it's very important not to lecture your spouse - complaints should be made without any hint of who is right and who is wrong. See; I think having OS friends is very, VERY wrong, but if I were in a marital debate over them, I wouldn't say so. If I set myself up as the Queen of what's Right and Wrong I will just put a nose out of joint. ( Nor would I queenly decree 'I am right to have OS friends' if I felt that way)

Instead of a right/wrong debate just say it hurts you and you would like that fact considered. MBers don�t disrespectfully judge the other as being 'wrong' as it muddies the water. They simply expect a spouse to respond to the complaint. It is neither right nor wrong to dislike mushrooms, so I would just tell a spouse 'no mushrooms' when ordering pizza, not convince him he is somehow deviant to even want them.

What you're looking for is - how does she respond when the 'right/wrong' label is removed and it is boiled down to 'please consider me'. Will she choose to respect your feelings or ignore them? Is she open to alternative ways of having her need met which don't hurt you? There's nothing these men offer that you can't offer her and more.

See, even if she was successful in convincing you that your feelings are wrong, that wouldn't change the feelings. It would still grind on your feelings of love for her until all romance and tenderness disappeared. Much the same effect as a spouse would have on me if they continually presented me with mushrooms. It still boils down to whether or not she is OK with making you unhappy to get what she needs.

MBers give their spouse every warning they can about their unhappiness, and every opportunity to recognise and correct it. You will need to lead by example for a while.

Thank you for this explanation (along with all the other folks). This helps tremendously for me and how I need to respond. I am one of those folks that need to keep grilling it in until it becomes habit and a way of life.

There are a lot of gray areas or at least appear to be where it is very clear there is not necessarily a right or wrong...

But what about areas that are clearly against the Bible (we are Christians). For example lying? Or Deception? Or Affair? Or whatever blatant sin. Am I correct in that we still do not point this out as wrong or un-biblical? I know if I was holding a friend accountable to Biblical teaching I believe the Bible makes it clear to point out the wrong, but do it in love and allow God's word to clearly point it out... not my personal beliefs. Not judging, but rebuking a friend who I am helping to be accountable.

So how does this play in marriage with issues of clear wrongs like the examples I gave?

In a marriage, when one spouse is doing something that bothers the other, whether it's an outright Biblical sin or simply something annoying, the best way to handle it is to say, "When you (insert troublesome behavior,) it really bothers me."

When saying this, avoid attaching a judgment to it, such as "you're being lazy," or "you're wasting time," anything that can be argued. That something is bothering you can't be argued by the other person.

Assuming your spouse has good will toward you, he or she will apologize and change the troublesome behavior so as not to be the source of unhappiness.

I would be very careful about calling out sin in another person, especially your spouse. Even when done in love, it can backfire if the person wasn't seeking your input or guidance. Many sins are bothersome to the spouse, and the best way to handle it is with a complaint.

And remember that if something your spouse is doing bothers you at all, you can ask for your spouse to simply stop doing it, even without having to explain why it bothers you.

If my H was to set me down and tell me very kindly and with love that something I was doing was greatly concerning to him and told me that when I did (name it), it didn't really bother him but he was concerned that I might going down a path which might lead to sin, I think I'd listen and at least discuss it with him, because our three-year MB marriage history speaks volumes to me about his love and care for me. But usually the MB way of handling complaints is quite sufficient for dealing with life's annoyances and difficulties.

Affairs are quite different, of course, because a simple demand to stop and a patient explanation of the harm being done isn't usually enough to get the unfaithful spouse to stop. Calling it a sin certainly won't stop him/her. With affairs, exposure, Plan A, followed by Plan B is the best solution for the betrayed spouse.

That is a great description!

Pointing it out is just fine, and very much recommended. Not just sin either - you should point out any complaint that you have. Just make it *your* complaint. Don't try and spin it as though God told you to pass the message on. That carries the message that you don't expect what you think to be taken seriously - and if you dont think your feelings are important, why should she?

You can say whatever it is offensive to you and that enabling such behaviour is against your religious and moral beliefs. Just don�t tell her what her religious and moral beliefs should be. You can (and should) say you won't stand for things in your life that you don�t want there - such as deception.

Even when a spouse has an A you don�t lecture them on how wrong they are, it is swifter to say what you will and won't stand for. It is more important to DO than talk in cases of really extreme sin. A man who has the bible passages out won't achieve half as much as the man who is fighting the A with exposure and winning his wife back. Women should not shelter their H in their home while he continues such an egregious and offensive attack. In both scenarios they take a stand against sin with action, but lecturing what a person with free will should think plays no part whatsoever.

MB typically allows the spouse the respect to believe whatever they choose - but that does not extend to allowing deeply offensive actions. A person who believes OS friends won't get them into trouble is left alone to think so as long they don't hurt their spouse by actually doing it. A spouse who gets the temptation to have an A with an old love isn't battered for the thought, they are asked to cut off contact.

Dr H has even counselled with people with completely opposing but passionate religious beliefs to stop any action that offends the other - but he tells them to leave the others' thoughts alone.

wow, indiegirl, that is a great quote - could you go post that over on tiredwife's Honesty thread?

Sure.

Just had counseling session... my chant in my head was...

Do NOT do demands.
Do NOT do disrespectful judgement.
Do NOT get angry.

Looks like I succeeded there.

Here is what took place...

I shared the facts of the latest hidden things.
I shared how they hurt me and how it makes me feel.

She did apologize for not honoring agreement and having "personal" contact versus only "professional".

Although she could lie and I know this she said the following:

- She did not delete any emails herself.
- She DID get mad when I asked to see her work related things, BUT realized she had no grounds to be mad.
- The system does purge every 30 days, but she had not had "personal" contact via phone / email since last year until this April 11th event, but there had been a few work related emails with the consultant.
- She could have deleted the emails in question, but she didn't as she really didn't think the content was overly personal and there was nothing to hide in her eyes. Although today she apologized as it does violate agreement and she knows it hurt me and she said it was not going to continue.

I shared with her that she wanted me to believe this was just a friend and nothing more, but these actions have made it difficult for me to know to what extent of an emotional bond she had / has with this person. And this unknown causes me pain and hurt. She said that he was just a friend and there is no bond and that she has no problem stopping it.

I did not ask and not sure there would have been a benefit, but I would have like to have said... I feel like there is an emotional bond that is difficult to break since it appears to have been a challenge this last time, but I didn't say anything as that would have been argumentative or judging.

She is NOT a thinker... more of a carefree live by the moment person. I know that folks can struggle with being honest with their feelings and I asked did she think she was being honest with herself about this OS friendship, about what it really was... she said she believed she was and he was only a friend and nothing more so she can keep it professional for the few times she has to interact with him for consulting support.

I also shared that I would like to make a request for Radical Honest... that we have honest, openness and transparency. She seems to be fine with that... but maybe she doesn't know what that really means yet.

There was no anger from her at all in the session, no defensiveness. Well... she did once start to give a defense, but counselor stopped her.

Anyway... I believe it was a good session, BUT a long way to go and truthfully... still don't really know the extent of the relationship and must continue with eyes wide open... and me stopping my past love busting and build on her emotional needs.

I encouraged counselor that I would like to get more focused to the MB practices so we are going back to re-doing the questionnaires and pick up from there. He mentioned that we had so much "difficulty" with on another "both fighting things" that we could never really get traction... and that does sort of sum it up. Hopefully we me really pushing to NOT do my love buster actions and if my wife starts doing the same as well as both starting to meet our needs our marriage will slowly improve.

How are you doing, SM?

Still keeping the love busters at bay?

In regards to keeping the love busters at bay... so far I have been successful. Internally though I feel hurt wanting to come out, but I try to redirect by going back to reading about love busters and my other book to help me not go down that road. But so far so good.

How am I doing... it is a struggle that currently is all internal as I feel I can't share with wife. Even if I make something a request I am not sure if she is very open.

For example we took a 20 minute walk the other day and I shared with her that I would like to have 15 hours of time with her per week if possible. I shared we had about 3 hours of alone time with one another over the last 10 days and for me I would really like to get to having 15 hours a week as I felt the amount of time we had wouldn't allow us to really meet each others needs and emotionally reconnect. At the time she didn't seem to disagree or agree and she didn't seem to have a negative reaction or anything. So I thought she just heard me and I left the request in her hands.

She then had her counseling session and then I had mine and it came up in counseling that he wanted me to try and have nothing but easy time with my wife... that she has a strong desire for "easy". So he recommend that when we take walks or go on dates to not bring up anything about relational things. I agree in regards to dates... I was trying to keep those completely free of anything other than meeting needs and fun... but sooner or later you have to make time to discuss requests or desires right? So I told him that I thought I was... and the only thing I did was share wanting more time together. Apparently that was not "easy" for my wife.

So I explained to him from my perspective... I simply took the 20 minute walk (which was 20 minutes of our 3 hours) over 10 days to share me wanting more time. I didn't complain or say it in a negative way... just that I wanted more time with my wife to build our relationship and to become closer with one another emotionally. My wife has read (or at least she said she did) His Needs / Her Needs and I do remember her saying she didn't think 15 hours was reasonable.

So my counseling session I felt didn't go well as I felt I was being told I could never share a request unless in counseling. I explained we are only getting 3 hours in 10 days and it has been that way for a LONG time... if not less. So when can I possibly share a request or a desire when we have such little time.

In my eyes if all we have is 1.5 hours a week and 15 minutes of it is sharing a request then yes... from a percentage standpoint is much less than if we had 15 hours a week with just 15 to 30 minutes of request making and or discussion... at that point the percentage of "easy" is very high. It was like I couldn't get him to understand this... now I think he was just trying to say make everything with relational building easy and save discussion / request for a separate time... and I agree... but when our 1.5 hours in a week happens in just 15 minutes increments then I find it hard to fit it in.

Anyway... move ahead 2 day to our couple counseling and after sharing all of the positives of the last few weeks we discuss the request for more time.

Now although counselor is teaching many of the MB guidelines (he is not a MB coached counselor)... he does coach on not demanding, angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements and also on emotional needs. However there are some areas he seems to not entirely agree with or he things may not be reasonable which really bothered me.

So as we started to discuss my request for more time my wife started debating what time are we including for this... I told her that I was wanting 15 ours of undivided attention where we were meeting one another's needs. That I wasn't counting going to a movie per say as we can't even talk during a movie. The other night we sat for an hour on the couch and I had to take a test for work and she watch a hallmark movie... she looked at me and said she counts that as time together. I said I definitely count it as time together, but not undivided attention... how could I meet her needs or she meet my needs by just sitting there and not doing anything "together". So after a while it started to feel like I am debating on why it is good to have UA time together. So I simply said... I am simply requesting more time with you where we can give each other the attention we deserve and I leave that request in your hands as I don't want to argue about it.

So she went on to say that our counseling time should count, when we watch movies together and a few others that would not count in my mind as UA from what I have read. So one question would be is sitting down watching a movie or tv show at home considered Recreational companionship. There are definitely shows / movies we really enjoy together... and if it is at home we do talk on and off during them.

So I was hoping during this process the counselor would have backed my desire for 15 hours (knowing he isn't specifically a MB counselor). But as my wife makes the statement that she can't see any way for us with 3 kids, with sports, and so on ever having 15 hours of time. I tell her that all we have to do is schedule for it and it will be possible. Then the counselor says that he thinks that would be difficult to achieve as well and he felt if we could get 8 to 10 hours a week we would be doing way better than most of the marriages he is seeing come through the doors. I can say I was very disappointed to here him say this so now he just justified my wife's belief that it can't be done so now how the heck can I get this time.

She also know this comes from MB site and his books so now I am afraid she is turning a negative reaction to MB.

Anyway... gonna head on, but was very disappointed with his response. Now he did say he thinks it would be great to get that amount of time, but he thought it may be difficult for us to do it based on our existing schedule. I agree with existing schedule it would be hard, but that is why you "change" the schedule... because in my mind you put your energy and time to what is important... our marriage... but I didn't say that as that is my belief and could come off as a judgement if my wife doesn't see it the same way I do.

Thanks.

I'd stop talking about MB and what you want from her. MB is amazing, but any belief system not enthusiastically shared is going to come over like you're a salesman on the doorstep. You've mentioned the 15 hours, she has a working memory, so I would now just drop all discussion of it and work Plan A.

I would just start to make a process out of enticing her in. Set up fun things that she would like to do. Set up babysitters. Look into clubs the kids can join to give you free time (Vacation bible school has been used by couples here for free babysitting!) If she says no, then nod, smile and come up with something else. By all means, watch movies with her. No it isn't proper UA time but she will have a good time with you and the pressure to 'fix the marriage' will be lessened. This all encourages her to view you as a fun person she will ultimately want to spend that UA time with. Get her some snacks and fix her a snazzy drink - download something she mentioned or that she would like. Make deposits anyway even before you get that access to UA time.

Women, fortunately or unfortunately are very 'show me the money' creatures. We are wired to want it to be easy to be around the man we are with. We don't do courting or wooing. Whether committed or not she's not going to want to spend time with you if it is peddled as a requirement. She will only want to spend time with you if it is fun and satisfying for her.

The good news for you is that there is a high success rate with men getting stuck in to Plan A and enticing their wives over to the side of romance. If you were a woman, it would be hopeless and you'd have to make an ultimatum.

I am a bit torn about the counselling sessions. The counsellor is useless and it is an hour of relationship talk, which is a negative experience devaluing your stock with her. Not to mention the individual sessions where he is probably peddling incorrect theories like it's OK to spend little to no time together. I wonder if you should drop out, and concentrate on using that time/money better, or whether you should go in there calculatedly to make deposits in a situation where you have her attention. However you can make deposits around the house, or even by email and text which are likely to be far more fun and flirty than counselling time. So I think you should just say you aren't doing it any more. It's busting down your morale more than anything else.

That might create a short term conflict with your wife, but it will add up to fewer negative experiences than an hour a week indefinitely would. Make it up to her in other ways.

If his clients aren't spending more than ten hours together they aren't in love. They might be happily and independently coexisting but a passionately in love person requires more than one and a bit hour per day with their soul mate! Ask for examples of successful couples ten years out from counselling who have been scored for passion and romantic love. If he can't provide them say it's not for you because you have found another system which can provide that data.

I actually talk very little about MB, but I will stop talking about it at all.

I am torn on counseling as well... the two biggest things that have bothered me lately is how he has said...

1) It is unrealistic to get 15 hours of time together... ( but I believe he had also stated "based on your current schedule"). So I am seeing him today to tell him how much this disturbs me as I feel like he just gave validity to my wife that 15 hours is NOT doable when I know it is. It is simply scheduling it and being creative. But because my wife "TRUSTS" the counselor she is likely to believe almost anything he says. Where I don't blindly believe anything he says... I think through what he says and determine if I feel it is wise or beneficial for our marriage. And to state having 15 hours of UA time a week is unrealistic is NOT beneficial in my mind.

2) He has said several times in counseling... "your husband doesn't trust you". This is really upsetting as stating it this way puts the issue on ME as if I have an issue trusting people. When the real issue is the untrustworthy, unfaithful, and deceptive actions that my wife has taken... and how she doesn't really follow through with what she say she will do. For example she was supposed to have the LB and EN questionnaire done by last Thursday and she didn't do it. She actually said... "Oh you did yours H... if you would have printed me a copy I would have done it." I tried to hold my tongue, but I said "I want us to be completely honest with ourselves here... I am not the reason you have not completed the LB and EN questionnaires. Yes I would be happy to print one out for you, but it was your responsibility to complete your own questionnaires". Luckily the counselor spoke up and told W that it was her responsibility and it is hers to own.

She also lost the book she was suppose to have read a chapter in so we could discuss.

The point is... he keeps mentioning "your husband doesn't trust you"... there is a REASON for this and I want him to stop saying it. Yes... I don't just give blind trust... but once you show yourself trustworthy then trust is abundant. There are plenty of people I trust... but to put it nicely... I don't have confidence my wife will do what she says she will do or to stick with something she says she will do. Now I don't say any of this stuff to her outside of earlier counseling where I explained her actions made it difficult to trust or to have confidence in her... but I don't keep bringing it up.

So today I will be challenging the counselor as I don't want this trust thing put on my shoulders when that trust is really on her shoulders. And I do give certain levels of trust to her... and I give more as she continues being trustworthy... but remember... just several weeks ago I found she reached out to OS friend so she broke trust again in a very big way.

After I speak with him today I am going to consider decreasing my counseling with him. You are right... many times it does bust down my morale and during couple counseling I feel negative withdrawal from my love bank.

Hey ... does Dr Harley have any statistics on success rate with his system? I would love to see some info on this... wonder if he publishes any of that?

I am going to do my best to try and make things enticing and easy as possible... which I have actually been doing, but struggling to some extent. When your own love bank is in the negative it is very difficult.

I don't think I am peddling anything as a requirement, but I guess I could see how she may think that if she doesn't have a strong desire at the moment.

I guess it is good one of us has the strong desire at the moment to restore the marriage.

Thanks again for replies.