You didn't "try to hold" your tongue. There was no trying here, because if you had put forth the effort you would have succeeded in keeping your mouth shut. She did not pry your hand off your mouth to force you to speak your mind. Make no mistake, YOU gave yourself permission to lovebust your wife.



You are wasting your breath trying to straighten him out.

Dropping him completely is a much better option.

As a man, your odds are very good at winning your wife back if you follow the plan to the letter and do not cherry pick it.

OK, I'm hoping the following quote from Dr Harley will try and help you see what I was getting at about the counsellor.

I didn't mean challenge him, I meant, get away from that room because it is a negative room, and when you are in it, your wife views you as negative. Yes, even though it is the counsellors' fault!

The feeling of romantic love is completely irrational. We love people who associate with days when we are at our happiest. We don't love people who we associate with chores or unhappy experiences.



If you're there during boring discussions of why your marriage doesn't work (and as you've identifed) hearing how her H doesn't trust her... you're the blue light that comes with the pain. The counsellor rephrasing and telling her that she is behaving untrustworthily wouldn't help a bit - that's still a negative experience for her.

At this point you might ask, "well who cares if it is negative - the real point is that I am correct (and I believe you are!) and that the counsellor should be telling her how wrong she is for an entire hour so that she can learn the difference between right and wrong".

Completely right as far as rational argument goes, but completely wrong as far as the irrational feeling of love goes. Being lectured about how untrustworthy she is by the counsellor isn't going to help rejuvenate her feelings for you.

Romantic love is what you're aiming for here. If you can spark the feeling of romantic love in her (and it tends to need the man do this to the woman) she will feel more motivated to consider you. She will feel as though your heart is hers. She will do anything to avoid hurting you. So your goal is to prime that pump.

Well how do you do that when she won't do UA time? The same way you did when you courted her first time around. Whenever she was near you, she only had positive experiences of you. So she was willing to give you a bit of time, which turned into a bit more time and which then turned into a lot of time. When you got to the 15 hours a week stage she was in love with you. Bingo.

I'd avoid that counsellors' office like the plague because it is devaluing your lovebank with her. Let him talk about you when you are not there - it won't affect you because every time she is around you, you will ensure it is pleasant and fun and pressure free. Make your complaint that you don't want her to go to counselling, but if she does, keep to your plan. Soon she won't have any complaints to bring him.



This is just foolish! Meet her needs the way a man who is courting would. Is this the way you'd go about getting a date? Make her list what she wants from the date?

You feel she owes you more work and more effort because she is your wife. I get that and agree with you as far as that goes. However I would suggest you throw all thinking like that out of the window and just concentrate on priming the pump of her lovebank. You can be right, or you can be married. You can't be both at this juncture.

Once she is in love with you again she will view your early efforts as romantic and heroic. You can be right then.



When two people are fully on board and implement it correctly I've never seen it fail. It really does seem to have a 100pc success rate. Whenever people come on to the forums saying 'hey it didn't work' you can bet your buttons there is a gigantic gap in the plan they didn't do - that is always the case from what I have seen.

When you have one spouse with a reluctant partner, it gets a bit more hit and miss, yet Plan A is always extremely effective at getting a reluctant spouse's interest. As a woman with a reluctant spouse I Plan A'd my H for six months and he enjoyed every minute of it. I'm pretty sure that if he hadn't been having an affair, he would have done anything not to lose me. He was weeping when I kicked him out. Since you are a man, you can do Plan A so much better. The dynamic works better when the man is courting the woman and obviously, (unlike me) you should ensure there are no competitors with snooping. Plan A hard and snoop as hard as you can.

You'll definitely succeed in getting her love if you Plan A right. So far as that goes Plan A is very succesful. Heard of Stockholm syndrome? Even kidnapped women fall in love when they are treated right and spend time with the person!

When that lovebank marker gets back in the black and she's deeply in love, it then boils down to her relationship attitude. Will she work hard to keep hold of the love or will she keep expecting it handed it to her? This is the part that only she can decide, but you will have done as much as you can to motivate her by that point. People will do anything to keep hold of the feeling of romantic love, it's a drug so your chances are quite high.

Please listen to these clips and tell us what you think.
Beware of Bad Counselors

It is very difficult when the love bank is so empty and my "in love" feeling is non-existent and actually was close to the starting to "hate" feeling... and then to hear... basically had you H done this I would have done what counselor asked me to do.

I hear you and will "refrain"... but I can tell you it is stinking difficult at the moment... although I have been successful many times.

I did discuss it with him privately and right or wrong here is what he said.

He said he agrees with almost everything Dr Harley says... but the one thing he has found through his clients he has had read the His Needs / Her Needs book... is they all said they couldn't see any way possible to do 15 hours of UA a week... I believe he said these were mostly folks with kids involved with sports or something else and usually one spouse was unwilling.

So with the resistance he says he doesn't try to force people to do something... he coaches... and guides them where they are willing to go and he said his clients almost always see doing 7 to 10 of UA time as doable in the beginning.

I explained how I felt he validated my wife and by saying it was unrealistic and by extension it felt like he was saying I was unrealistic as a husband as it was my request to my wife to try and reach a goal of 15 hours of UA prior to last weeks couple counseling.

He said ultimately he has found it difficult for his clients to get on board to doing 15 hours a week, but they all were "willing" to start with 7 to 10 hours a week. He said if BOTH spouses were willing to do 15+ hours a week he would never tell them not to..

He said in my case... my wife is ABSOLUTELY resistant to it... she thinks it is unrealistic... and therefore what good is it for myself or him to try and force her to see that it is good. So he tried to get her to meet where she was "willing". He said he can use his position to try and force and probably could... BUT he wants the spouse to willingly make a decision and not be coerced. He suggested 7 to 10 hours and my wife indicated she sees how that might be possible. So he said let's shoot for the 7 to 10 hours and as the love bank fills our hope is she will desire more of it and be more willing to reach the 15 hours.

I told him... I get that... the wife is resistant and we can't force anything... I get that he is trying to bring her along and get her to meet where she is willing to meet... HOWEVER... by saying it was unrealistic... he is saying HE BELIEVES it can't be done. This is where he simply said again... I am not going to lie to you... this is one area I feel can be unrealistic depending a family situation (I am guessing, but I assumed he meant how many kids, sports, business, and so on and so on). Ultimately he has found it difficult for both spouses to be willing to shoot for 15, but could get them to shoot for 7 to 10 and hopefully more.

Listen... I do not want to go bashing him... I am a big boy and make my decisions based on taking in all the information. I am a STRONG believer in MB so I am going to do my best to do plan A.

Just now my wife initiated a conversation on her own about 15 hours and another subject that I will add to thread later tonight as I am not sure how to respond.

You aren't the first one here who has had to learn how to do this. I was the queen of DJs. I could craft the most clever, pointed, biting DJs that would burn for a long time. I know how hard it is. But it must be done if you want a happy marriage. One of the first steps is to stop giving yourself permission or excuses to lovebust.

I was a very reluctant wife. I didn't want to go out for the 15 hours. I can tell you that I wasn't won over by people giving me an out and telling me I could get by with 7 hours. We would not be in a recovered marriage if I had been told that and listened.

Dr. HARLEY wouldn't see people unless they agreed to get in the 15 hours. It's that important.

I think you need to drop the counselor. He is not helping.

Ok... a few minutes to share this conversation.

She had her counseling session today. Then later in the day she calls me from work and says that she wants to take a little time to talk about the request I had made for 15 hours of time. She said that she needed some help with this... she wanted me to take some time tonight and map out the last 7 days and show her how we could have gotten 15 hours in. She said if I need to include where we may need to back some things off of the schedule that is fine, but show her how. I told her I would work out an idea of how I see we can get 15 hours if we were diligent in following schedule.

Now had it ended here I think we would have been fine. However she brought up another conversation from the past.

First a slight background on this... the situation deals with one of her OS friends at work... not the 2 consultants, but another one of the co-workers that serves as a trainer and she has to spend a bit of time with and did spend a lot of time with him over the past 1.5 years. He is also one of the OS friends she specifically mentioned months ago in counseling that was a good friend and someone she touches. I still don't know what touches means... at the minimum she gives him high fives at work as they achieve certain tasks together, but not sure what else... I think possibly putting her hands on his back every now and then or he coming up and touching her shoulder to get her attention. I have seen where she just reaches up and touches a man on the back near shoulder... but one time she describe a man getting her attention. Personally I don't place my hands on other women and if a woman wants to get my attention I prefer she call my name. But that's me.

He is also the guy she goes to to open up her shake bottle and one day she had called me, but she wasn't talking to me, but to someone else and she was laughing and said "Come on big boy... use the muscles". It turns out it was this OS friend she goes to to help open up her shake bottle when it is too tight for her.

Anyway... a short while back she had asked me if I had a shake bottle at work. I said probably and asked why. She said she never remembers to bring one to work. So I said I had a spare, but what have you been doing as you have been telling me you have been drinking your shakes. She said... oh... I just use my OS friend's shake bottle. I just go into his desk anytime I need it, use it, and clean it out as long as I have it back by 2:00PM for his work out.

So to me she has a close enough relationship with this OS friend to where she can freely share a shake bottle that you drink from and he is someone she has spent a lot of time with, someone she considers a good friend. It puts up red flags... and at the minimum does not make me comfortable. Now back when I had found out about the relationship and sharing of personal shake bottles that they both share and drink from I had shared that it did not make me comfortable and something that I would prefer she quit doing... and that I would provide her a bottle. She then said that is why she was asking me so she could not have to borrow his... but that she didn't see any problem with using his.

Now come back to today... she references this past conversation and says... I want to talk about this situation with the shake bottle... the counselor said I should have been honest with you about it. This caught me off guard and I quite frankly wasn't prepared and in instinct I said "I definitely want honest and openness, but that doesn't always mean that what is being told out of honest is something that I would desire or feel good about. When I said that I realized I probably should have said nothing.

She then went on to say... how do we know if a request from our spouse is unreasonable or not?

So at this point it sounds like she is wanting someone to judge what is reasonable or not, but I wasn't sure so I asked her can you explain what you mean... and she says... well what is someone is being unreasonable like being jealous or insecure.

So now she is essentially saying I am a jealous and insecure husband, because I have strong boundaries in the confines of a marriage.

I said that I have spoke to the counselor and asked him point blank at least 2 times over our course of time if he has found anything I have shared as being flat out jealousy and he has told me no that is not what he is seeing. He simply saw me as a spouse with strong boundaries he respects. He has said yes there are plenty of men and women who would agree with me on my boundaries... but as we know there are men and women who also do not agree. (Note: if you want to see what I think about OS relationships you can see my thoughts on one of my first few posts... but I think I am close to what MB discusses in articles.

Anyway... I said it was hurtful and disappointing that she sees me this way... and that I didn't believe I was that way and she said "oh, come on now.". So she basically added a bit more of a sting there with that comment. We pretty much ended up ending conversation as it was going go no where but love busting. I know I felt love busted and disrespectful judged.

Anyway... I am left feeling a bit defeated tonight as I look back on this.

Final thoughts... I was encouraged that she gave thought to the 15 hour request a short while back and that she was asking for me to help her see a way to do it.

I became quickly discouraged as she started to make her case for her OS friendships as being not a problem and that she sees me as a jealous and insecure person for wanting strong boundaries.

Now she knows there are certain insecurities I have... we all have some... and I felt like she was using that in a harmful way. My main insecurity at the moment is I don't know if my wife is ever going to be in love with me, cherish me, and make decisions that strongly consider my feelings... just like I want to make sure I consider her in all my decisions.

So disappointed... we have our counseling session together tomorrow and I know this will be the main topic she wants to bring up and discuss... and to be honest I don't want to. I don't see any good that can come from this based on past sessions. It will likely just be her saying she sees not problems in her actions and that I am just jealous or insecure for having these boundaries and then I would want to try and explain my viewpoint and then the big fear that the counselor would do something to put me under the bus sort of speak.

I don't know what to do... I absolutely don't want this to turn into a love bust session on me or her and me refusing to go would also love bust her. I have to be all prayed up and focused as I don't think this can go well. I guess all I can say is... this is how I feel and all I can do is make a request and leave it in your hands.

I really wonder how the POJA (if our counselor would ever focus on it or even bring it to light) would come into play.

I have studied POJA and I know the premise of it is if there is no enthusiastic agreement from both of you then it doesn't happen. So in the case of "my wife wanting to go to lunch with a male coworker" OR "my wife not seeing an issue building a close relationship with OS friend" or "my wife not seeing an issue sharing shake bottle with another OS man at work"... how the heck would that work with POJA. Yes... the default is it doesn't happen if there isn't enthusiastic agreement... but what could ever be an enthusiastic agreement in this area??? I don't see how I could ever be enthusiastic about it... EVER. And then she would just view it as me controlling via POJA.

She sees no problem building close friendships with OS and doesn't see an issue going to lunch with them and doesn't see any issue sharing personal things and being their best friend. My stance is I find them to be weak boundaries or non-existent and I could probably never be enthusiastic about those relationships or desires. What agreement could there ever be?

Sorry this got longer than what I wanted.

Man I feel so defeated right now.

As FYI: I am reading through Love Busters book now and trying to soak it all in so I can avoid this big love busters.

Your counsellor isn't a bad guy, he is simply clueless. Dr Harley knows beyond doubt that the plan does not work without 15 hours (minimum) UA time. He has surveyed people who have tried it over and over again and it has not worked one time. I can say too, that I've never seen anyone successfully skip this step. People stay together but they tell us here that they are still miserable and detached. Dr H wouldn't even accept couples who were not willing to put the time in, because he wasn't willing to sign up to a failed project. He's right that she shouldn't be forced and you can warm her up with less hours to begin with, but HIS belief that it isn't essential reveals him as an amateur. He simply knows absolutely nothing about how to create romantic love. He's only interested in keeping the peace between his warring clients and keeping the cash rolling in. That does not create love, but it does create an irresolvable problem and indefinite cash flow. Cash which would be better spent on your wife for a good dinner.

15 hours is the MINIMUM for couples who are already passionately in love. You and your wife will need more like 20 to make up for the deficit once she is on board. It's alarming in the extreme that he doesn't even know this, much less accept it.

Any courting couple, any happily married couple spends 15 hours together. They wouldn't be in love otherwise. I grew up in a home where this was done automatically so it still strikes me as strange that some people don't get it.

You are letting a clown pilot an expensive aircraft. His ignorance is dangerous. He has NO idea that he is conducting negative demoralising sessions which are making you love each other LESS. You must stop going to those sessions with her.





If you think you are going to do it even just one more time, separate to protect her. If you think you are starting to hate your wife separate. Every lovebust is a bullet in a your marriage which already riddled. You can't afford one more.

You'd be better off away from her and doing nothing and avoiding doing any harm than actively destructive actions.



Likewise you have to protect yourself from harm and from her lovebusting. If she begins an entire conversation predicated on making a DJ about you just say you don't want to have a discussion where your feelings are referred to as unreasonable. It hurts you to have your feelings dismissed and you'd rather not. Walk out of the room next time it happens. If she raises it again say you want to have a marriage where your feelings are taken seriously and she can either choose to do that or not.

It sounds like that was a gaslighting attempt to me. Rather than worrying about her mindset, I'd be stepping up my snooping.

Remember that you are in Plan A. Plan A has no expectations. You give out and you get nothing back. You are doping her up with needs to create a feeling of amenability. (Which she is already STARTING to display with her schedule) All you need to look for is a) competition with snooping and b) opportunities to make love bank deposits.

She's willing to look at her schedule which is more than most reluctant wives do, so I'd say your Plan A is going great. Most Plan A men have to put up with snatches of time with an actively hostile wife. They still succeed! If it wasn't for the drama created by the counsellor I think you'd be feeling pretty good.

What is happening with your Plan A anyway? What needs are you meeting for your wife (daily) in order to get this plan moving?

Have you written the Harleys?

Also please listen to these clips. Beware of Bad Counselors

Yes... but it was practically a book so I am actively writing one that can fit on one sheet of paper if I can.

I have listed to them. Thanks for the links.

If you leave your number they will call you and get all your information and then you don't have to write so much. They are wonderful and so easy to talk to.

Let us know when you hear back from them.

So far I have been trying to make everything easy for her... if something hurts me I have not said anything... if she asks for something I do it... I am showing no frustration and no anger... I am not making any disrespectful judgements (other than that statement in the last counseling session I mentioned earlier... don't know what it is classified as, but it was a love buster).

The harder part is trying to act like you are courting someone and not falling into patterns of co-existing. Although it has been "easier" for her, because we don't work on anything or deal with anything it internally takes a bit of a toll on me and is a struggle. I believe this is why she probably is showing more willingness... her asking about how we could do 15 hours (even though she clearly thinks it is unrealistic), being willing to take a 15 minute walk with me about once a day for the last week (she literally works 2 streets over from me), she has been calling me twice a day at work just to say hey.

All of these are positive and have made small love deposits... but there are still large love busters nailing me.

Heading to couple counseling session that I am very nervous about.

I just feel hopeless.

The topic she wanted to discuss was about the OS friend that she shares a shake bottle with some times (see several posts earlier). She explained how she doesn't understand why this would even bothered me. She said she doesn't know how she can avoid love busting me if something doesn't even register in her head as an issue. She goes on to say she has borrowed multiple other folks shake bottles as well... multiple ladies. She said she could have gone and asked another guy as well. She just doesn't see the issue.

Sharing this here... She doesn't understand or get the full context of this relationship with this particular OS friend. To me (and I know she doesn't see it), but sharing a mixer that you both drink from on top of the fact you have an admitted close friendship, and the fact she said in counseling she touches him... again don't really know what that fully means (see previous post about this), and how she is playful with him all leads to me not feeling very safe about that relationship. In the FULL context of everything. My number one LB I call Weak Boundaries... but I am guessing falls under IB... right??? There are other issues, but this is the one LB that has been a pattern and does massive withdrawals. But again I can't make her see that and it is futile to try.

The counselor did speak up and asked her if she understood this is NOT about a bottle, but about the context of the relationship with this OS friend. She of course acknowledged it and she was able to accurately state how it made me feel. BUT... she says she doesn't need boundaries as long as she stops blatant attempts at sexual advances and it shouldn't bother me.

She clearly believes I am just a jealous and insecure person and that is why the need for boundaries...

She point blank stated the following in counseling:

"Someone who wasn't insecure or jealous would not need boundaries." Those are her words blurted out in anger in counseling. Heck... my only insecurities are in my marriage and how my wife values me so little to be unwilling to look at stopping the LB's.

She went on to say that every guy in the world could want to have sex with her, but she would just say no, because she would NEVER do such a thing. (I didn't say it, but how about putting up a hedge of protection so it is clear to those men who have common sense that you are unavailable for being a best friend and then save the blatant NO, get away from me for the idiots who don't have common sense)

She acknowledged she was married to me so we have to figure out how it works, but she went on to say where do you draw the line? Meaning... again... what if she thinks it is not an issue at all, but spouse does... where do you draw the line and say this is not really an issue and you should just deal with it. She literally looks at it as you just have to accept it... which to me sounds like shortsightedness in being able to find a workable solution.

Well I agree from a Christian standpoint that I accept her where she is and love her where she is... but if someone willingly continues to destroy the feelings of their spouse where does that go... Yes... I am to still love and honor... but it destroys the marriage nonetheless.

I specifically spoke up to counselor and said how about the Policy of Joint Agreement. You have asked us to follow the policy of radical honest, why not follow POJA. This is designed for us to work out issues so it protects each of us. LUCKILY he said this much to wife... "if it is something we cannot enthusiastically agree on we don't do it." But that is it. But then again I know he also believes sometimes we just have to accept things. I am split on this on that I believe we need to love our spouse through all our imperfections and we have to forgive and we have to accept one another... but by simply saying sorry just accept this knowing there is a way to resolve doesn't make sense.

Right now I am all torn up inside so this is just my "current" feeling right after leaving... but I feel it is over. I see no hope no matter how well I plan A it... if I can even do it well enough. My emotions after session is all over the place.

The only feedback right now I hope to get is a little encouragement... And how I will go home tonight and successfully do plan A after today's new low. Sad thing is we are running in different direction for kids sports and won't be back to the house until after 8:00PM and she normally passes out around 9:30PM. So when we get home she will just be tired so hard to try and enjoy time.

I know everyone will probably slam counselor... I know how everyone feels... so let's not rehash that.

Right now I have to defuse the internal hurt trying to build anger or resentment in me right now. I need to love my wife regardless... I do believe this... I need to find the strength to do it well to give every chance for success.

Dang... I'm tired of hearing myself talk.

Thanks for the ear.

She just sent me an email saying "love you".

That is something positive... to me I take it as trying to confirm a love commitment... I just desire for her to join me and each of us demonstrate it together as a team full force.

I will take this positive.

This is a very common Plan A mistake. You SHOULD tell her when she hurts you, not just keep it to yourself. But it needs to be done very respectfully, and keep in mind that she may not care for quite some time. But do gently complain:
"It bothered me when you did ..."
"It bothered me when you said ..."
Keep it short and sweet, and don't get into an argument about why it bothered you or hoe she should respond. She may very well respond hatefully. Expect her to. Get your complaint out there, then quickly move on to meeting emotional needs.

It was a disrespectful judgement. Be careful in claiming that you are not making any disrespectful judgements. This is a very sneaky Lovebuster, and very often difficult to see in ourselves. Your wife is the ultimate judge of whether or not you are making them.

Are you listening to the radio show? Looking at other couples situations is a great way to start recognizing disrespectful judgements. They are easier to see in others than ourselves.

She will know because you will respectfully complain.
You: "It bothers me when you share a shake bottle with your male co-worker."
Her: "Thank you for telling me."

It doesn't matter WHY it bothers you. Don't get into that. Now she knows it does bother you, so the excuse that she didn't know no longer flies. It's up to her to start protecting you once she knows.

It doesn't matter if she understands why it bothers you. The question is, WILL SHE STOP?

I would stop having these conversations with her. You don't need to argue over whether or not it should bother you.
Will she stop, regardless of whether or not she sees the problem? That's the only conversation you should have. She needs to know it bothers you, but she doesn't get to argue with you about it.

YOU: "It bothers me when you share a shake bottle with your male co-worker. Please stop."
HER: "But why? It shouldn't because [insert random justification]"
YOU: "It just bothers me and I would like it to stop."
Repeat on a daily basis.

That's fine. She can believe the sky is green and the world is flat, too. Doesn't matter. Will she stop just to protect you?

If your wife will not put up these boundaries, she is a danger to you and your kids. An Affair is just about inevitable. Don't have another session with her where you spend any time justifying or explaining. It simply bothers you, and you need it to stop.

Why? What emotional need does that meet? If you want her to respond to you Plan A her. Meet her emotional needs on a daily basis.

What emotional needs are you going to meet today and tomorrow? How will you be courting your wife?

No more talking your guts out. No more trying to fix her brain and her mindset. Or allowing her to try and fix yours. It's incredibly depressing and pointless to boot.

Make your complaints swiftly and confidently and don't allow a conversation about the complaint to follow. You are notifying her, you don't care about persuading her.

Hit it quick and move on to needs meeting.