Agree with wenang's suggestion, but I would suggest Dr. Chalmers instead. She might be able to get through to your wife.

Thanks for all the continued guidance.

I see online it shows Steve Harley under coaching... but I didn't see how to contact Dr. Chalmers. Do you just call coaching line and ask for her?

YES, you can ask for Dr Chalmers. That is Steve's sister and she is a psychologist like Dr Harley. She did take some time off but she might be back now.

I am looking at some past actions / conversations and trying to determine where they fall in MB so I don't repeat.

As you know from the history of this post my wife has done some things that have broken trust in a big way. So for me... I can't give a lot of "trust"... and for her she says "trust" is an issue and wants to be trusted.

Now this specific post isn't about wife and the whole trust debate as I know the view here and agree... but this is about how I may be responding and how I can improve myself. Here is an example:

Let's say you have something very personal about yourself that bothers you and you share this with your spouse. Your spouse is the only person you share this with and you don't want it shared with anyone else and you don't want to be made fun of by your spouse. The personal thing isn't important, but if you want to have an example let's say you have some belly fat you are having a hard time getting rid of and it really embarrasses you.

In the past you had shared something similar to your spouse and your spouse at a later date made a joke about it (the intent may have not been to hurt, but trying to be funny). So there is a history of where the spouse did take something you shared in confidence and hurt you with their response.

Now come back to current and the example of belly fat... you share this with your spouse and let's say it goes like this:

"I am really having a struggle with my belly fat and I am very self conscious about it. I really want your help in encouraging me to work on losing it. But please don't share this with anyone else or make fun of this joke or ridicule me as it really bothers me"

OK... The BOLD part is the part I am thinking may be disrespectful.

We had a conversation last night almost identical to this and it upset my wife. She said "I would never do that to you and it bothers me that you think that I would. I can't believe you would think I would laugh at your or make fun of you. I love you and would never do that."

Forget her response... the question is... "was I" being disrespectful... making her feel like I thought she would go tell someone or ridicule / laugh at me?

Yes... I have a past example where she did joke about something personal so in my mind I was just making a request it be kept in confidence and she don't joke or ridicule me like has happened in past... BUT should I have not made the request.

My response to her... and probably wrong... was:

"DW I am just requesting you don't share this with anyone else or joke about it as it is very sensitive to me and really bothers me."

So I want to make sure I don't repeat this and I want to understand what this is considered in the MB world... was I being disrespectful?

Of course she didn't see it this way and just saw it as a negative. She immediately responded next with "Well... I don't know why you think I would do that and it also bothered me earlier when you asked ????". So it seems like it ticked her off and now she wanted to point something out that I did as a retaliation.

I told her "I felt like we are mixing two things here. I had a request for you and it bothered you and you pointed something out I did in response. I most definitely want to hear your complaint, but could we keep them as separate issues as my request has nothing to do with your separate complaint."

I then asked "What did I do earlier that bothered you?" She said she was tired and didn't want to talk about it tonight so we didn't. I'll share about this in next post.

I am sure I have messed up some way in the above so I welcome some clear MB views on this.

As stated in last post my wife didn't want to talk about her complaint as she was tired, but here was situation.

She had ask if I would be ok if she went out with her girlfriend for dinner. The girlfriend is a mother of 5, hardly gets out, also the couple is our friends although we do little together and mainly the friendship is with my wife. Anyway... I was fine with my wife going out with her.

They were going to a restaurant that was also known for its bar area. My request to her before she left was "If you don't mind could you not hang out at the bar". Her response was "Oh no... we weren't".

I didn't know the mother's 1 year old daughter was going or I probably wouldn't have made the request.

Now looking at the last post what my wife was sharing at the end and mixing it in with my other request was this... "... and it also bothered me earlier when you asked me to not sit at the bar. You shouldn't have to ask this and it makes me feel like you don't trust me".

It keeps going back to trust. Anyway... she said she was tired and didn't want to talk about it and I could tell she was already ticked off about my request in last post and also this request. And I know both tick her off as she feels she is not trusted at all.

I would like to focus on what I did wrong so I can avoid doing it in future.

Really surprised that you are focusing on wordsmithing when you have such bigger problems in your marriage. Even so, the way you worded it came across as a criticism. You might have said "please keep this to yourself, as it would really embarrass me if this came out."


Trust is a feeling that one develops when the other behaves in a trustworthy manner. In other words, trust is EARNED. If she wants to be trusted, she can start changing some radical changes, such as: [add or delete as you see fit]

1. quit your job at the swimming team
2. agree to never go to a swim meet or any other meeting without you
3. stop flirting with men
4. etc, etc, etc

Just tell her the kinds of changes she can make to EARN your trust.

Melody,

My intention of this post was to make sure I was not Love Busting. If it looks like I am trying to play with words... that is NOT my intention. I want to rid all Love Busting... even the slippery ways it can slip in through our conversations.

And if I Love Busted then I need to apologize to my wife... right?

Thank you

I think the word 'ridicule' is where it sounds a bit DJ-y. It implies that's what her motivation is. Always keep it really simple and focus on what action you prefer and why you prefer it: I.e. 'Can we keep this between us? I'm embarrassed about it'.

I wouldn't turn it into a big production, just reassure her you know she wouldn't knowingly embarrass you and that's why you are trusting her with these feelings and letting her know about your embarrassment.

i was feeling this was indeed a slip up.

Thanks for pointing this out.

What about my request saying "If you don't mind could you not hang out at the bar"

Her response being "... and it also bothered me earlier when you asked me to not sit at the bar. You shouldn't have to ask this and it makes me feel like you don't trust me"

Since she is making a complaint that it felt like I don't trust her I would imagine MB would say then don't say that again.

I am just confused as there are issues with trust and she has broken it in some large ways, but I don't want to be Love Busting... while being honest.

So I am guessing not saying anything would have been the best choice and make a request only if she did?

I think so many problems are being swept under the rug here that I am absolutely alarmed. You seem to be so distracted with wordsmithing that you are missing the overall picture.

You should tell her clearly that you do not feel comfortable with her going to a bar. When she says you do not trust her, simply agree with her.

"this is true that I do not trust you. I can show you ways to earn my trust." Put not going to bars at the top of your list.

And then offer her ways to earn your trust. You should keep the bar thing on the front burner until she STOPS. Just because she doesn't like a complaint doesn't mean you stop giving it.

You DO NOT sit silently while she engages in marriage wrecking behavior.

I have thought a lot about the responses about counselor.

I am going to see if Chalmers is available. I was going to get with Steve a while back, but things were improving so I held off... but I see now the only way this will ever work is if I have someone on my team that fully believes in the MB way and can counsel me even if spouse is not on board as well as me doing everything I can as husband to build her love bank and not love bust. It is so defeating when counselor appears to be MB supporter, but then says things that seem to contradict or at the minimum leaves things out.

I found a text my wife sent saying to her girlfriend...

"I feel like throwing in the towel... but I am not going to let Satan win".

This text was around the day where she was displaying IB behaviors with painting the house and when I requested her limit her interaction with coach to only when it was directly relating to daughter and swim business. (I posted about these 2 things). Markos and maybe others shared that some of it came across as a DJ.

Anyway... this was a double edge sword... the throwing in towel... hit me hard. Things have improved tremendously from where they were... but it seems if we have any hiccup her first reaction is to throw it in. Even if the hiccup is her IB or OS boundary issues leading to the initial conflict.

The other side of the coin is she has chosen not to at the moment... but I so wish she could see the benefit of MB and leading to being in love... and I guess I will be the only example so I need to perfect it! And NEVER try to teach / educate... just DO.

At this point when she hears I am not going to go to counseling or switching this could lead her seeing this as me giving up... so I may need some encouragement.

She will randomly make a comment like... "we have been in counseling over a year and a half"... and saying she felt like we shouldn't still be in counseling. I don't say anything... but I so bad want to ask if she thinks I am the reason why we are still where we are or maybe part of it is she is still unwilling to be a buyer and provide extraordinary care in the marriage. I DO NOT say this, but it is so frustrating and is what I am feeling.

Markos... you mentioned anti-depressants... maybe this is something very specific... but what out there is considered mild, least side-effects, but helps during a period like this. I am tore up at night emotionally after wife goes to sleep... I am starting to have trouble sleeping... feel anxious about the next threat to walk out... and anxious that she doesn't appear to really care very much about how she can be hurtful.

Part of me just says... you want to walk... then walk. BUT I know what kind of marriage we could have... the kind of love we could have... the kind of care we could have... the damage that comes with it. There is NO REASON this marriage cannot be exceptional!!!! I feel like I am the only one fighting for it... and I know she is doing things now where she wasn't in the past... it is so emotionally draining.

Maybe I gave the wrong impression. My wife does NOT go to bars or bars in restaurants. The only time she has been at a bar (within a restaurant) is if it was the two of us waiting on table. She doesn't go to bars.

I normally wouldn't have a reason to make the request, but recently she started having a glass of wine with meals and I thought maybe she would go up to bar with girlfriend waiting for table at restaurant and have a glass of wine since the two of us do that sometimes on date nights. Since this situation has never come up I wanted to be radically honest and let her now it would be something I would not be comfortable with.

And at first she did just say... no they were not going to do that. But like I said it bothered her.

Melody... I don't follow you on the whole wordsmithing thing. I am trying to make sure I am not Love Busting by anything I am saying. And what I say involves words so I am actively learning and asking. This is what I can control.

I feel like I have made a complaint / request every time something comes up. I did deliberately not say something about one thing, but in general I am not holding back on sharing complaint / request. My problem in the past was NOT doing it correctly or maybe making a request before something had happened... and I am getting better and better.

I just can't say some of the stuff you all respond with as that is you telling me how it is... I can't tell her those things. But I do want to properly share complaints and requests.

So this is not disrespectful? I know I definitely don't want to argue WHY... but I was thinking telling her I don't trust her was disrespectful.

But what is being done about getting on a plan to save your marriage? About getting her to eliminate OS friendships? About getting her to stop her relationship with the swim coach? I see so much focus on word smithing and almost no attention to your marriage problems.


Of course not. It is radical honesty. You obviously cannot reach solutions if you are not honest. She is telling you she wants to be trusted, no? Then you should be honest about that and show her to earn your trust.

I have a special request and that is to shorten your posts. It is very hard to find the time to read all this superfluous information. If you can try and condense it down to 3-5 SHORT paragraphs, I would be grateful. And you will get more responses from others.

I have read His Needs Her needs
I have read Love Busters
I have read a ton of articles here.
I have listened to a number of radio shows

I have taken action to get rid of Love Busters. My main being Demands, DJ, AO. For 3+ months I have had no demands or AO, but I have seen some DJ slip in and when I find it (from help here) I re-focus and work to eliminate 100%. And coming here to determine whether I am successful by asking questions.

I make requests to wife when IB takes place.
I make requests to wife about OS boundaries as they come up.

In regards to OS friendships... unless it is happening at work where I cannot see it then there is nothing else going on. Outside of work there is almost no other time other than swim team. Which is where she does interact with coach. She can't avoid every male on the planet and I don't expect that... I do expect good boundaries avoiding building closeness and if something makes me uncomfortable with OS that adjusts the interaction or ends it.

I am monitoring emails, text and chat. I now have access to work phone.

I am struggling with Plan A as the frustration takes a toll on me emotionally. Looking to get some anti-depressants to help with that per Markos. Researching this now so I am aware of the different types, side effects, ect.

Contacting MB coaching after this post to get schedule of Steve or Chalmers.

Thanks for clarification. I think I need to re-read Love Busters and His Needs / Her Needs again.

Ok, thank you.

A good AD to consider starting with is Wellbutrin. Dr. Harley often recommends it for depression. It has less side effects than many other ADs.

My H took Zoloft during a major depression years ago, and while it seemed to make him feel better over time, it wreaked havoc on our sex life. When he took Wellbutrin, though, much later, there were no noticeable ill effects at all. Took a few days to start working, and after a while, he had to increase his dosage a bit, but no sexual side effects.

About a month ago I added St John's Wart to my normal vitamins and health supplements. I used it for 1 month and then stopped. It did seem life in general was going smoother, but don't know if that was the supplement or just things were actually going better.

Everything I have read showed St John's Wart as effective as some of the mild AD, but less side effects. It was not recommended for deep depression. Will talk to doctor about it.

If you're trying to go the more natural route to combating depression, I have read that exercise several times a week also is quite effective. The tough thing for depressed people is motivating themselves to get out and exercise, but if you can do so, it might also greatly help your depression.

I have sent of request to MB to find out if Dr Chalmers is available or only Steve Harley.