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remark,
your wife has described you and this sounds familiar to me. Is there a chance that your have ADHD, or ADD that are contributing to your problems?
me, DH
all the children
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Because treatment could contribute majorly to following through and listening to your wife.
I always have trouble listening to my husband, especially if he is having long monologues, my mind wanders. (I have this with patients too, so it is not that I'm unwilling to listen to him.)
And I can drive him crazy by not knowing where I have put things.
me, DH
all the children
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...Are there other examples of defensive language or patterns that I use, or perhaps others use, that I might glean defensiveness in and therefore avoid?... In another thread (Help! I want to do the right thing!) an incident regarding fixing a toilet came up. I think you left a conversation to fix the toilet and your wife was unhappy about that. At some point in the thread you said this (emphasis added by me): I'm back. The leaking toilet is on hold, steadily dripping onto some towels. This is more important, of course. That sounded very defensive to me. Why did you need to let us know the toilet was dripping on the floor? And then you say "this is more important of course." Tone and attitude don't always come across in writing, so I may be way off, but this is what when through my head when I read those two sentences: Remark said: " The leaking toilet is on hold, steadily dripping onto some towels." Anywife heard: I feel defensive, like the people on here think everything that is wrong in our marriage is my fault. I need to let you all know that, in this situation at least, my wife is the one who is not being reasonable. Once you know the toilet was literally dripping on the floor, surely you'll understand I did the only reasonable thing and my wife was completely unreasonable to expect me to talk with her while it dripped. I'm trying really hard but what she wants is unrealistic.Remark Said: " This is more important, of course." Anywife heard: " My marriage is more important. I do believe that. But, in this instance surely you can see that the toilet situation was more urgent. Please give me credit for being such a good guy that I am willing to let our floor boards rot in order to try to save my marriage." Also, are you the one who had a plummer come out to check your work when you had POJA'd that a plummer would do the work? whoever that was, that struck me as defensive and very "I told you so." (H feels defensive that the W wants a plumber to do the work over him, does it on the sly, then uses the technicality of having a plumber out to check his work for free as a way to say he stuck with the agreement, and as an opportunity to say to W - "See? You were wrong to think I could not fix this and to want to hire someone else. And you can't get mad at me because I did call a plumber and I didn't waste any money since I had a coupon." ------------------- Please note: I am not judging you or saying that you have no reasons to feel defensive or that either you or your wife are right/wrong in any situation. Just giving you examples of things that struck me as defensive. I also tend to be defensive and think "...if they only understood how unreasonable my H can be...!" but I realize now, that's not the point. The point is to stop doing things that upset your spouse, not convince a bunch of people on the Internet that you have good reason for doing the things they find upsetting.
I read something this morning on defensiveness that hit me between the eyes. It was effectively that if your spouse says that you hurt her in some way, defensiveness validates your position, perhaps, but only AMPLIFIES the inital problem that SHE feels hurt. How profoundly stupid it is of me (or anyone) to be defensive!!!!!
Thank you,
Remark
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Because treatment could contribute majorly to following through and listening to your wife.
I always have trouble listening to my husband, especially if he is having long monologues, my mind wanders. (I have this with patients too, so it is not that I'm unwilling to listen to him.)
And I can drive him crazy by not knowing where I have put things. hh, Yes, it is possible. I have looked into ADD and ADHD as well as many other options over the years. Working with a counselor and my GP doctor, I tried several different medications which didn't seem to work. One med even gave me a constant low-grade headache, without helping, of course. My doctor said that when we hit the right med, the 'light with come on' and I will realize 'so, this is how the rest of the world lives'. No such light came one. My wife and I were both disappointed. Thanks, Remark
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Markos,
You OK? I haven't heard from you in quite a while and I was hoping to do the LB series with you. Yes, I've done Chapts 1 and 2.
I hope all is well with you and yours and it is simply the busyness of the season that has stalled our communication.
And, I hope we can continue.
Thanks,
Remark
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I read something this morning on defensiveness that hit me between the eyes. It was effectively that if your spouse says that you hurt her in some way, defensiveness validates your position, perhaps, but only AMPLIFIES the inital problem that SHE feels hurt. How profoundly stupid it is of me (or anyone) to be defensive!!!!! OMG - That is so true. That explains it so brilliantly! Think about it this way - if you do something that hurts someone, and they explain "That hurts me" and you respond defensively - the message they're going to receive is that you aren't going to stop doing that kind of thing because you feel justified in doing it. Now, not only have did she make herself vulnerable by telling you that your actions upset her, but she's being told 1) she is wrong to be upset so it's going to continue. And, since she's married to you - how helpless (and probably enraged) must she feel to think that's the kind of "care" and "compassion" and lack of control over the situation she has to look forward to for the rest of her life with you? I see two ironic things here: 1. If you were not defensive and just changed your action to what your spouse wanted, you'd probably be the hero in the situation. 2. It's really not about blame. Look at LBs - many of the things we do that drive our spouse crazy are not "wrong". (My H is super sensitive to sounds - but is it really wrong for me to eat, drink, and drag my feet when I walk? No. Prior to MB I would have an AO and explain why he was wrong to be so hypersensitive and sprinkle in some DJs on how AMAZING I found his tolerance for his own chewing... Now I understand he's not sitting there thinking I am right or wrong. He just wants the noise to stop. So I leave the room if he's not also eating. And I ditched the slippers that made the scraping sound with every step I dragged across the tile floor.) And, yes, that was me/us. I am ashamed and sick about that incident. That incident is turning out to be he straw of my defensiveness and selfishness that is breaking the back of my marriage. I'm curious. Prior to fixing the toilet yourself and all that followed - did you know in your gut that she would not be happy even though you believed you were perfectly justified in what you were about to do and could explain/rationalize it later? If so, I recommend you start paying attention to that feeling. When you find your brain setting up a justification for actions before you take them - that's a MAJOR CLUE to you that, right or wrong, you are itching to do something that, on some level, you know will upset her. At that moment - Stop. Turn Back. Abort! Abort!!!!!! (or at least discuss it with her before proceeding).
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...I have looked into ADD and ADHD as well as many other options over the years. Working with a counselor and my GP doctor, I tried several different medications which didn't seem to work. One med even gave me a constant low-grade headache, without helping, of course. My doctor said that when we hit the right med, the 'light with come on' and I will realize 'so, this is how the rest of the world lives'. No such light came one.
My wife and I were both disappointed.
Thanks, Remark Have you tried meditation? Or other brain exercises? I am "self diagnosed" but quite positive I am MAJOR ADD. (Once, mid sentence while on the phone with my DH, I stuck my cell phone in my pocket and started talking to people around me then remembered him about 5 minutes later.) I started meditation - just a few minutes a day - and it REALLY does seem to help calm my spaztic brain. I plan to start that up again. There is an app called CALM that walks you through things that's really good. There are other brain exercise things out there too that I think may be good. This may not be ADD, but something else that helped me (though I have a long ways to go) is I read this "1 minute rule" tip. I can never shake this "i don't have time I don't have time" feeling, so I never put things away/clean up. The tip said if something takes 60 seconds or less - do it right now. It was like an epiphany for me because even I have 60 seconds... I had not thought before about how little time many things really take - like picking up my clothes, making the bed, emptying the dish washer, etc. I also stopped being defensive about my spaciness. It really irritates me when DH points out something I've done, but I (usually) just fix it now instead of explaining why I have every right to do that...
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I read something this morning on defensiveness that hit me between the eyes. It was effectively that if your spouse says that you hurt her in some way, defensiveness validates your position, perhaps, but only AMPLIFIES the inital problem that SHE feels hurt. How profoundly stupid it is of me (or anyone) to be defensive!!!!! OMG - That is so true. That explains it so brilliantly! Think about it this way - if you do something that hurts someone, and they explain "That hurts me" and you respond defensively - the message they're going to receive is that you aren't going to stop doing that kind of thing because you feel justified in doing it. Now, not only have did she make herself vulnerable by telling you that your actions upset her, but she's being told 1) she is wrong to be upset so it's going to continue. And, since she's married to you - how helpless (and probably enraged) must she feel to think that's the kind of "care" and "compassion" and lack of control over the situation she has to look forward to for the rest of her life with you? I see two ironic things here: 1. If you were not defensive and just changed your action to what your spouse wanted, you'd probably be the hero in the situation. 2. It's really not about blame. Look at LBs - many of the things we do that drive our spouse crazy are not "wrong". (My H is super sensitive to sounds - but is it really wrong for me to eat, drink, and drag my feet when I walk? No. Prior to MB I would have an AO and explain why he was wrong to be so hypersensitive and sprinkle in some DJs on how AMAZING I found his tolerance for his own chewing... Now I understand he's not sitting there thinking I am right or wrong. He just wants the noise to stop. So I leave the room if he's not also eating. And I ditched the slippers that made the scraping sound with every step I dragged across the tile floor.) And, yes, that was me/us. I am ashamed and sick about that incident. That incident is turning out to be he straw of my defensiveness and selfishness that is breaking the back of my marriage. I'm curious. Prior to fixing the toilet yourself and all that followed - did you know in your gut that she would not be happy even though you believed you were perfectly justified in what you were about to do and could explain/rationalize it later? If so, I recommend you start paying attention to that feeling. When you find your brain setting up a justification for actions before you take them - that's a MAJOR CLUE to you that, right or wrong, you are itching to do something that, on some level, you know will upset her. At that moment - Stop. Turn Back. Abort! Abort!!!!!! (or at least discuss it with her before proceeding).
Honestly and sadly, yes, I must admit I feel she would not be happy. I didn't even have the brass to tell her about it when she got home.
I should have, as you said, listened to that voice in my head and aborted.
I failed miserably to honor my wife's wishes and will regret it forever as it seems to be the ultimate back-breaker for her.
Remark
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Markos,
You OK? I haven't heard from you in quite a while and I was hoping to do the LB series with you. Yes, I've done Chapts 1 and 2.
I hope all is well with you and yours and it is simply the busyness of the season that has stalled our communication.
And, I hope we can continue.
Thanks,
Remark markos has not been around much recently. I'm choosing to believe that with 7 kids, this is the busiest family time of the whole year for him and Prisca. 
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Thanks, SugarCane. I thought similar, even having forgotten they have 7 kids.
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...I have looked into ADD and ADHD as well as many other options over the years. Working with a counselor and my GP doctor, I tried several different medications which didn't seem to work. One med even gave me a constant low-grade headache, without helping, of course. My doctor said that when we hit the right med, the 'light with come on' and I will realize 'so, this is how the rest of the world lives'. No such light came one.
My wife and I were both disappointed.
Thanks, Remark Have you tried meditation? Or other brain exercises? I am "self diagnosed" but quite positive I am MAJOR ADD. (Once, mid sentence while on the phone with my DH, I stuck my cell phone in my pocket and started talking to people around me then remembered him about 5 minutes later.) I started meditation - just a few minutes a day - and it REALLY does seem to help calm my spaztic brain. I plan to start that up again. There is an app called CALM that walks you through things that's really good. There are other brain exercise things out there too that I think may be good. This may not be ADD, but something else that helped me (though I have a long ways to go) is I read this "1 minute rule" tip. I can never shake this "i don't have time I don't have time" feeling, so I never put things away/clean up. The tip said if something takes 60 seconds or less - do it right now. It was like an epiphany for me because even I have 60 seconds... I had not thought before about how little time many things really take - like picking up my clothes, making the bed, emptying the dish washer, etc. I also stopped being defensive about my spaciness. It really irritates me when DH points out something I've done, but I (usually) just fix it now instead of explaining why I have every right to do that... Thanks GW. Good tips. I'll look into the CALM app. I had pursued ADD/ADHD as I mentioned, but had not heard of the related brain exercises. My wife and I have talked about the 1 minute rule, though I don't think we called it that. And I believe I am better about that in recent years. Thanks, Remark
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All under 10 years, if I remember correctly, including twins and a baby, and all home-schooled. I don't know how they have the time to post here at all!
I remember that markos made a commitment to you to work with you, and I do think he'll honour that...after the holidays!
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Another epiphany reading about defensivess today, here on the forum and elsewhere as well, I came on some stuff on "gaslighting". (My wife has talked about hyperbole and and my use of the words 'always' and 'never', etc. and even mentioned 'gaslighting' in the past, but I didn't understand iot or apply it to me.)
I proceeded to look up the definition gaslighting, because I still wasn't understanding the term.
After reading about it and attempting to apply it to me, I thought "That's crazy, that isn't me!"
And, then it hit me, I do have gaslighting tendencies, even on myself!
I am feeling like such an messed up human being!!
So many of my actions drive my wife, heck any human being, AWAY.
Change is a mandate.
Last edited by Remark; 01/01/15 08:00 PM.
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Yes, I had read that a few hours ago.
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Yes, I had read that a few hours ago. What is your plan to stop doing it?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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I'm not sure. Step one recognize it and own it. I am there.
Whenever we converse, I will be very aware and sensitive to, not just her words/message, but ESPECIALLY and SPECIFICALLY, my response to that.
Train myself to think first
1. Understand what she is saying
2. stay calm even though it may hurt hearing it
3. think, "this IS how she feels", that's her preoggative
4. then think, "what is the truth in her message that I control?"
5. then, perhaps, ask her how she might recommend I resolve that issue.
6. Bottom line, I will focus on NOT blowing her message off, NOT getting upset, NOT getting defensive, passive aggresive, but simply reflecting, analyzing and doing my best to address her issue.
I'll work to hone this plan.
You have any thoughts or similar plan I might leverage?
Thanks, Remark
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Have you read these? There are some real fantastic steps to help. How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife How to Make Your Wife Happy Tell us what you think.
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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I've read those both before. Am re-readiong slower and embracing in the context of a plan to eliminate gaslighting and defensiveness now.
Thanks,
Remark
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