I'll give you my perspective, and this time it is my personal perspective:

Having done the online course, I don't see how it can work if only one spouse participates. The procedure is that each spouse identifies the issues that are problematic for him or her, and they are coached through the ways of solving these problems. I cannot see how this can work if your wife will not do any of the lessons that give her the chance to point out what is wrong for her.

There is a post from Dr Harley in his private forum about this. I'll find it later today and repost it.

Thank you, SC.

I'll look forward to that.
And, thanks for your input and support as I realize I have to change.

Remark

I think I am following the Harley principles.

My W says I am not.

Am I?

What ENs are you meeting daily?

What LBs have you eliminated? You are going to an anger management program, correct? Do they give you feedback? Do they ask her for feedback as well?

Please go to a PSYCHIATRIST with a list in hand of all the meds you have tried. You cannot see your brain chemical patterns like a psychiatrist can. Trial and error for meds through a GP has told you enough to confirm that you may have an issue. Now it's time to go to a specialist. Speaking from experience, there may be something that you hadn't considered. It may still be possible for the light to turn on. It could make behavioral adjustment much easier for you.

Can you see a psychiatrist?

You are doing a good job so far with getting yourself on the road to change. Just remember, that you are learning valuable skills, regardless of whether or not your wife divorces you. You will be amazed.

i've looked around the private forum but I cannot find the post that I think I've seen there. There are too many threads for me to be able to find it easily.

I did find this, in answer to a question from a poster about whether requiring her spouse to do MB was a selfish demand:

Dr Harley was not hypothesising about the exact question you are asking, which is whether the programme can be done successfully by one spouse. He was dealing with the case where one spouse finds herself pushing her husband uphill through the programme every week, to do the exercises. He says he wants to do the programme but then finds all manner of excuses not to do the written work. In his reply, Dr Harley tells her that he would not encourage her attempts to push him uphill every week; if he is unwilling to join the programme, she should suspend her efforts until he is on board.

That's not quite the question you were asking, but it's the nearest answer I could find. I would only reiterate my own view that, since the weekly tasks involve - essentially - assessing your spouse's behaviour (in writing), exchanging that information and working on the issues until they are resolved, I cannot see that it can work if you get no input from your wife about your behaviour and your efforts to improve it, and if she is not interested in reading your assessments of her behaviour.

EN's met:

None. She is very withdrawn and there isn't much she'll let me do until the LB's are completely beliminated.

LB's eliminated:
None.

I don't have an issue with anger management, W thinks you have me confused with someone else, perhaps.

Thanks,
Remark

SC,

Thank you, that is where I am as well. Though, I believe she was on the program, in Plan A several times, pushing me up hill, and now, is totally withdrawn. I am slow to get there, but now on the program, the roles are reversed.

And, I am on board with the concepts but failing miserably at eliminating LBs and fulfilling ENs, to the point where she feels I am lying when I say "I AM doing the Harley program."

Thanks for looking for that post and all your efforts.

By the way, my W says I have still left questions of yours unanswered in a previous post. I am doubling back again to complete that.

Thanks again,
Remark

It seems to me that there are some major communication issues here. (I often read people's emails and have no idea what they're trying to say so it may just be me not understanding you). But I sense that you may be making assumptions about how your wife feels and what she wants rather than asking her a simple question, then believing her straightforward answer. (If she is saying something is OK with her when it's really not, I think that would be her problem at this point.)

And you may be complicating the spirit of the POJA.

I'm still new to MB but I think it's disrespectful and condescending to not take your spouse seriously. And projecting thoughts and motivations onto them is you not taking them seriously (at face value). How can she tell you what she wants and cares about if you don't believe her when she does? That is a very frustrating experience.

Apparently your wife said to you, politely, in plain English:

"Do what you want. I work all day Friday, so I won't be getting there until 6:00 PM."

That does not mean "If you really loved me, you would prove it by not seeing your children while I have to work." It simply means, Do what you want. She has to work all day Friday, so she won't be there until 6:00 PM.

There was nothing there for her to be enthusiastic about prior to 6:00 PM because it didn't affect her. How would you sacrificing time with your children make any love bank deposits?

UNLESS - what your wife actually said was "I have to work 'till 6:00 but I really want to see them too, can we do it in the evening?" Then it seems you made the right decision - but if that was the case she would have been enthusiastic about it so I'm guessing that's not what happened. (But I don't know.)

Now if your wife said "I am not enthusiastic about doing two get togethers with "your" people this year." And the only time your kids could meet was that evening when your wife was off work, then my guess is you should have POJA'd more. If I understand the scenario, which I' not sure I do, you may have ultimately decided to see most of your kids on your own time while she worked and missed the one who could only be there in the evening this year. That would be disappointing but yes, your wife should come first in that scenario.

BTW, Friday was the 26th so I don't understand what that had to do with meeting on the 24th or 25th - which is part of my confusion with your scenario...

You are asking the wrong question, and indeed, unless we on this forum receive an objective report of your every action and interaction, we cannot know the answer to the question you asked.

You need to be assessing whether you are successfully eliminating love busters, and meeting her emotional needs. The measure of that success will be in a much-improved marriage, over time.

markos has posted a lot here about how he could not see why his wife thought he was doing things wrong; being demanding and disrespectful, and other things, because, as far as he could see, he was 'following the book". Dr Harley and his coach had to work with him over and over until he learned simply to accept what she said and to stop doing the things she objected to. It did not matter whether he was following the Harley principles (complaining respectfully, for example); if she found his behaviour objectionable, and if he kept doing that thing, he was love busting, and he would never make enough love bank deposits to improve his marriage. He had to stop doing the objectionable things without questioning whether they were wrong in Harley terms or not; they were wrong in Prisca's terms, and that is what mattered.

He also had to try many different ways to find out how she enjoyed spending UA time. He had to learn about his wife's needs by trial and error, and he had to learn not to get disheartened when something he did didn't work; he just had to try something else.

I think your question is an example of something I've tried to say to you before, which is that you seem to use this forum as a way of proving yourself right and your wife unreasonable. You did this with the Christmas example, and you are doing it with this question.

Your wife's view of your love busters is the only view that counts, not the principle of whether you are doing things right or wrong by the Harley method.

AW,

Please let me clarify. I knew she didn't want it. There had been already a fair amount of unproductive conversation. Finally, she capitulated and said 'Do what you want'. I knew where she stood.

Thanks,
Remark

I don't think you have eliminated the ones you think you have. For example, until you have mastered POJA, it is unlikely that you have eliminated selfish demands.

Some people eliminate selfish demands by sacrificing and giving in, which is wrong. However, I suspect that you, Remark, let your wife know how unhappy she has made you, which is just another kind of selfish demand. If you punish your wife after you've given in, it's still a selfish demand.

Why did you go on with this request until your wife capitulated?

And where did that selfish demand get you, in terms of marital progress?

Yes, I understand that.
The question really means, I believe in the Harley concepts, and am trying hard to put them into practice, yet failing, does that qualify me to say "I am working the Harley progam"?
I thought Yes, W says No. I recall Markos' post and agree that W is the judge of whether an LB exists or has ben eliminated. I had hoped that whether "working the program" was not as black or white as that.
I know that ultimately, her opinion is the only one that counts.
Thanks,
Remark

SC,
I realize I am in no position to make any demands, period. I don't think I do the punishing thing.
Yes, W mentioned similar to you that I have not eliminated as many as I thought. So, I revised that list to None.

Thanks,
Remark

I wouldn't use the church program for sure because while that may work for newlyweds or people trying to improve their marriages, your marriage is in the ICU and it is not worth the risk.

Everything Sugarcane is posting to you is spot on as far as the hidden lovebusters and trouble with POJA. People who pick it up easily don't need the online program. You do. (My husband and I are in the online program for our second year and it's the best $ we've ever spent on self/marital improvement. )

In my opinion, you should rely on what Dr. Harley said above. You need to prove to your wife that you are willing to change. You will still gain valuable skills in the program, regardless of whether or not your wife divorces you. Especially if you are open as I see you starting to be. And especially if you wife is at least willing to give information about your love busters to the coach.

I would just sign up for the program, and then ask your wife respectfully if she would be willing to talk to the coach, as a gift to you, so that you can help improve yourself. Then, after a time, and if she sees improvement, maybe then she would feel some hope towards working on the marriage and improving her side of the equation as well.

Thanks, I understand now. Never-mind my input then!

After reading this again, I'm thinking that you should ask your wife if she would be willing to give her input....and if she is, THEN sign up.

And I want to add that the online program is the best coaching/ counseling we've had but actually the best value$ would be on the annual access to the MBRadio archives. We would suggest both. You can do the online program in a year.

There is a series of 4 letters in QA about a marriage being saved by one spouse;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5009b_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5012_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5012b_qa.html


It is also worth noting (though I don't have direct citations handy) that Dr. Harley has stated over and over that if a HUSBAND works the program to the letter, he can - more often than not - save a failing marriage. Which is why husbands are so rarely advised to separate from their wives.


However, if Remark wants to be the one to save his marriage, he needs to follow the program, and concentrate on how his own behavior is wrecking his marriage, rather than wasting 40+ pages complaining about his wife, and writing unnecessary 9 paragraph responses to Marriage Builders-based instructions.


Instructions don't require responses.