SugarCane, thanks for the work you've put into Remark again. I'm sorry, but I'm just not up for engaging in another forum discussion. I just want to put an end to all this and get on with a new life.
It's okay. You are not obligated. But it does help us to hit the mark better.

I only wanted to stop in for a minute and clarify something on Remark's thread. Back in December, several people were pushing the question, "Will you agree to stop doing anything that your wife is not enthusiastic about, including seeing your father if that is how she feels? Will you follow this program, or will you make an exception for this?" Remark never did answer the question, because the answer is "no."

So, just to clarify, you are not enthusiastic with him ever seeing his father? Either way you feel is fine, but it definitely helps us to clearly know.

Yesterday, I asked, "Would you at some point please explain to the forum people that you're not willing to give up your family? You're going at this, I believe, thinking you'll be able to have a Harley marriage AND still keep your family. I believe they would be able to correct you. You keep saying that you want a Harley marriage, but it's still coming across loud and clear that you want what you once had with me, and that will never happen again."

Can you please help me understand that last sentence?

Yesterday's post was his response to that. Again he never stated his choice, only that he has to make one. He also minimized the very hurtful interactions he had with his siblings, only indicating that he "mentioned" something, yet in reality the series of accusatory emails they exchanged looked more like a witch-hunt. He's still painting himself out to be wonderful and me to be an unreasonable cow.

I just posted something that I was editing to post last night, but had to get off. Did I hit the mark?

Everyone has been so generous and patient with him, but he's still just giving lip-service back. It still looks the same as always from my perspective.

We are able to be patient because we have not been hurt by him. But just because we are generous and patient does not mean that we believe everything. Thank you so much DaytoDay for helping us.

I just want to put an end to all this and get on with a new life.

SugarCane, I don't know what you can do to help my husband. I don't know that anyone can do anything. Frankly, I asked him to post on the forum again because I just needed a break. During his hiatus from posting, I was his only target, and I just couldn't take anymore. At least the forum can spread him around to multiple posters. Plus, he's much more polite to them than to me.

Also, I've found that the people on this forum speak my mind for me so accurately that I knew I could trust them. And reading someone else say the same things I was thinking, to see them have the same negative reaction and point out the same unacceptable behaviors, helps me feel like I'm not completely crazy. This forum has been a life-line for me, even if it doesn't help to save my marriage.

In what way are you his target? What does he do that you can't take any more?

I find it helpful for you to post your perspective on the issues that he posts about, and those that he leaves out. The problem, if you don't post, is that he can leave out whatever behaviours he does not want to discuss, and we are none the wiser. We can take him to task when he tries to whitewash specific incidents, but we can't say anything about the incidents of which we are unaware - like his using you as a "target", and his claim not to remember anything anyone told him.

So I'd like to request that everyone take a different tack with him.

So I'd like to request that everyone take a different tack with him.

I've looked through the recent posts on Remark's thread, and I wanted to share some thoughts on our situation, partly to help those that are responding to Remark, but as much to help myself, to be honest. I've thought about what to write for several days but I'm still struggling with the words. I'm afraid I'm not going to do very well so I apologize up front. Thank you so much for your thoughts, and for helping us by giving insight.

On the radio program, Dr. Harley spoke recently about wives that are in stage 3. I recognize that stage. But is there a stage 4? Because I feel like that's where I am now. I'm resigned to the situation, I'm no longer fighting the inevitable, and I'm even looking forward to some of the upcoming changes. At the same time, the road to get us here and the reality of it finally playing out has left me rather shell-shocked. Remark signed a contract on a condo last week and will be moving out the end of May, so the train I've seen coming down the track for so long has arrived at the station. Dr. Harley is the one to ask.

Besides the "stage 4" stuff I mentioned above, I'm struggling with a ton of anger towards him right now. Our son knows we're separating, and not surprising, it's hard on him. I knew it would be and held it together as long as I could, but that wasn't a good environment for him either. I'm angry at Remark because he couldn't get with the program (the one HE was marketing to ME!) and it put me in the position where I had to choose between the impact to my health or the impact to my son. I finally determined my son would prefer to have living parents, even if it meant they were divorced. But that doesn't lessen the impact on him in this situation. I can imagine. I ended up with tons of resentment and anger too, after 20 years of craziness. I know that it is real. I understand the part about trying to stay calm and be civil. I remember being in your shoes, where almost everything my husband said represented one of his disrespectful communication habits. And the scariest thing was that on the rare occasion that he tried to listen to my complaint, he had no frame of reference for what I was experiencing, and he didn�t really see it. As a result, he felt that I was to blame for our miscommunications. I felt hopeless.

So now, at the advice of the forum, Remark is asking me how my day was, and if he can go with me when I walk the dog, and sending me texts during the day. I appreciate that everyone means well, and that the actions would even be appreciated if I was complaining about him not being romantic enough. But right now, it's the last thing in the world I want from him. With the underlying anger I'm dealing with, it takes everything I've got just to be civil to him otherwise. So I'd like to request that everyone take a different tack with him. Since I was one who suggested these things, I want you to know that I appreciate your input. As Marcos asked, can you help me with your request for �a different tack�? I don�t remember suggesting romance. Can you help me out here?

Besides, these aren't the things that destroyed our marriage. It was his lying, independent behavior, and prioritizing his family over me, along with his disrespectful, contemptuous attitude towards me in day-to-day life. Even last week, he made two references to me trying to control him, in response to something I did which didn't even include him. In another recent radio program, Dr. Harley talked about the approach-avoidance conflict regarding a man that had worked through recovering from his wife's affair, only to question if he really even wanted to save the marriage afterall. I feel like this could easily apply to my husband. Right now, he's acting like he likes me, but when we're engaged with each other to any extent, he seems to carry such disdain for me. I promise you that many of us here DO get it. And your husband has finally listened to you and come here for help, without really understanding what it was that he needed help with. We are trying to help him see things differently. He is the example for your son, right?
I have boys too. I didn�t want them to treat their wives like I had been treated and even if your marriage fails, you want your son to have a good role model don�t you? It�s very helpful for you to point out the problems to us, so that we can help your husband. However, I believe that he is genuine in his desire to be a better husband to YOU. And I promise you that if he sticks around here, he will be. You don�t have to keep him. That is your choice. But at least he can learn here how to be respectful to you.

My point is that I don't believe anything has been corrected with these bigger issues. And while I believe very much in the concept of "teach a man to fish...," I feel like the recent posts have been a lot of "give a man a fish." He's always been good about the superficial aspects of a relationship, especially if you give him a list and don't expect him to put any thought into it. Meanwhile, the important/significant issues are ignored. But without a solid foundation to our marriage, it's like building a house on sand. The first strong wave will topple it. I already responded to this. I�m not sure if my response seemed relevant or off base to you. I agree with the foundation issue.

As far as �significant issues�, the past needs to stay in the past. You can�t fix it and the damage is done. If there is something which could be corrected in the present, then those specifics are what we would really like you to CONTINUE to point out to us.

As far as the �list� thing? My husband had lists and lists for a while. He complained that all of the MB rules and my rules, and whatever rules were �tax code� he would never be able to incorporate them on the fly. But, over time, all of the individual rules started to become a big spider web of interconnected concepts in his brain. MB Radio and the reference of Dr. Harley�s books make all the difference. We have some handicaps and there�s a lot of improvement still needed in our marriage. Even though I�m sad about the past, the resentment is gone. My husband has learned a framework of marriage which far surpasses that of most men around me. That would be difficult to reproduce. He is now respectful and often apologizes for his disdain and contempt toward me. He just stood up for me to his family the other day in a way that was more noble and defined than even I would have considered loyal. I was in shock. His family has never really accepted me, and my husband risked lots of money and family relationships to make it clear AGAIN that he and I are one. End of story. I�m still just a bit incredulous.

I guess I just told you of the reasons why I am posting to your husband. I have seen Dr. Harley help people who most counselors would tell to get a divorce. He never says never because he knows that people can change and they do every day. He created MARRIAGE BUILDERS�

Your husband is here at MB posting, so he will get Marriage Builders advice as long as he sticks with it. My experience has been that there IS hope. You are too tired right now to go through it with your husband. Too raw. Marcos did it. My husband is doing it. GracefultoBe�s husband has a similar personality and he has made changes. I have made changes and still have more changing to do. Your husband can do it too. If he is willing.

Can you be a little more specific? What tack do you want us to take?

DidntQuit, thank you for your time and your encouraging words. It's always good to hear a success story. The incident you described regarding your husband defending you makes my heart flip. I understand your reaction to it, truly I do!

I've read through both your posts and wanted to reply at least briefly. While I understand your points and appreciate the progress you've made with your H, it seems so distant from where we are. Remark's defensiveness is still rampant, even if he's learned to bite his tongue. I don't believe someone will embrace new attitudes/behaviors as long as they're still defending their old ones, albeit silently.

I have one question for you, in response to your statement that "the past needs to stay in the past." What determines that something is "in the past?" If he did something just yesterday, Remark will say it's in the past. Also, he has demonstrated for 20 years that he is comfortable with lying to me in order to get what he wants. I understand that the individual incidents are in the past, but his (word?instinct? habit?) toward it that caused him to choose that option in the first place is simply part of him. Like the fact that he enjoys softball. Even though he hasn't played softball for 6 months, his (word?instinct? habit?) toward it is still very much in the present.

Does either word seem to fit into the blanks above?

So, to summarize:

1. You have seen little progress, and success seems so distant, if not impossible. And any progress made is temporary.

2. Defensiveness is one of his most common lovebusters. Even if he doesn't verbalize it, his attitude reflects
a) disdain or disrespectful judgment of your complaints and
b) unwillingness to accommodate your feelings.
c) even put out by the fact that you have complaints or feelings in the first place.

3. For 20 yrs. he has lovebusted with habitual dishonesty to accommodate his IB and you now you can't trust him. This selfish instinct worries you, because he didn't protect you from it. You see that attitude from him in the present. You believe that people really don't change their core beliefs, so you consider it a present problem.

Day,Is this summary accurate? Beyond my corrections, it is very accurate.

JDtD, can you give us some examples of recent Mr. Hyde behavior?

Also, is he attempting to educate you on the Marriage Builders program at all?

Perhaps you can be more specific on his lovebusters?