I think you are too focused on this relationship with this OW.

The bigger problem that you have is that it sounds that your H has a lifestyle that is perfect for him to continue his IB and SSL. He has a job that requires travel (something that Dr Harley strongly cautions against) and that does not allow for transparency (cannot see his expense reports, what he is doing on the work phone and email.

This is not a good setup for a strong marriage, forget one where one spouse likes to flirt and chat with other women and has a history of straying.

At this point I am not going to tell the previous woman's husband about their EA. It ended over 7 years ago after she moved to another state with her family and I did have access to all of my husband's accounts for over a year and a half after that time and there was really no contact with her after she moved. I have no idea whether or not she told her husband about it when it ended or at any point afterward, I have no idea what the state of their marriage is now. She reported to my husband and shortly after he ended the EA, she asked him for "career advice" and my husband suggested she take a position with the company in another state at the corporate headquarters in a department that he didn't work with. She saw it as a strategic career move, my husband saw it as a way to get away from her. From what we could tell, she found another older executive man to "mentor" her there and she never gave my husband aother thought after she sent him an email to let him know that she had made all these great "connections" with powerful male executives at headquarters when she got there (we think trying to make him jealous) who had told her they thought she had a bright future with the company and she was glad she made the move. He didn't respond to her.

Someone asked whether anyone knew about his past EA, yes - all of our family and friends knew about it. They could tell something was going on with us so we told people about it.

There is really not an option for my husband not to travel for two reasons. First, his field requires it and at 50 years old he can't exactly go back and start over from scratch. At this point we are trying to make sure we have enough money to survive into old age and whatever point "retirement" happens in the world today (if it even exists anymore), quitting an established 30 year career is not an option. Once you get to my husband's level, even trying to find a position at another company can take over a year and trying to take a "lower" level job is virtually impossible because everyone tells you you are over qualified. We went through this when he was trying to leave his last company after his previous EA. Second, our youngest son is preparing for a career that starts much earlier than the careers of the average student and, at this point, we are having to relocate as he is accepted to various schools for his training until he is old enough to go away on his own. That means that my husband has to work from home and then travel as needed to his company headquarters. The other option is what the vast majority of families in our position do - the husband stays in the family home while the wife moves around with the child and lives in a small apartment with him or her until they are old enough to go away on their own. So actually, my husband has chosen to do everything he can to stay with me as opposed to living separately from me which would make having an affair a heck of a lot easier.

I also want to make sure I haven't given the impression that my husband is constantly traveling for work. I would say he travels on average maybe once every two months for a day trip where he doesn't spend the night or spends one night at most. Maybe once a quarter he has a trip that requires a two night stay. Luckily he is able to the majority of his work from home. After his EA when he traveled I used to go with him. However, since August I haven't been able to do that because we no longer have my mom here to watch our son while we are gone - so he tries to limit his travel to day trips as much as possible.

This is really dreadful that you are withholding from a fellow betrayed spouse who may have been suffering for years!

Imagine if it was you.

legomom, I scanned over your thread but the key things that stand out to me is that you really need to get some sophisticated snooping in place. If he has an iPhone, you can install spyware without his password. As far as his computer, I would let him know that you feel uneasy about not having his passwords and by withholding them, give you the impression he has something to hide. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. I would get several snooping resources in place to see what he is doing. His objection to you having his passwords is ridiculous and unacceptable.

I would do that for a while to get a good idea about where their relationship stands and THEN discuss your discomfort about his relationship with this woman. It does look like he is headed to another affair but you need to get snooping in place to a) find out how far it has gone and b) have resources in place after you addressed it with him.

As far as travel, I would plan to go with him. If he is traveling once a quarter, that is not excessive.

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What you describe above is not how a professional builds relationships. I am an executive for a Fortune 500 company and his behavior is unprofessional and inappropriate. The fact that he has had one emotional affair indicates he is in the habit of meeting the emotional needs of women in the workplace and allowing them to meet his. That is NOT professional behavior. That is how a loose cannon operates. People who have affairs in the workplace are viewed as loose cannons with terrible judgment. He is the kind of executive we would try to "manage out" if not fire outright.

Having inappropriate, PERSONAL relationships with female subordinates in the workplace is not professional behavior. That is an excuse your husband uses to justify his unprofessional behavior.

He is RISKING his career with this behavior. He has one foot into a second affair. At my company, he would be FIRED and escorted off the premises for having an affair. Our Region Vice President had an affair with a female at my last company. He was summarily fired and escorted off the premises by an armed security guard.

I do not know any executive at my company who behaves the way you describe with coworkers. We have 290,000 employees and there are about 1000 at my location.

I guess I have a different opinion than many of you. If this was currently going on I would certainly want to know. If this was an EMOTIONAL AFFAIR that occured over 7 years ago, no I would not want some stranger calling me up out of the blue to either a) bring up a situation that may have already been dealt with years earlier which would only serve to bring up a painful situation all over again (and who knows what they could be going through personally in their lives right now that could potentially make that an extremely cruel thing to do) or b) bring up a situation that was over and done with 7 years ago (and again - I have no idea what is currently going on in their lives so why take the chance of potentially being cruel to someone. Wow, sorry I wasn't aware your daughter was just diagnosed with terminal leukemia - perhaps if I had I might not have called to tell you about something that was over and done with seven years ago that has now compounded your misery.)

Seriously, my husband's EA sucked but it was not the most horrible thing that has ever happened to us. Deaths of family members, other major life traumas have been much more horrible. I would not call it "life ruining" - at the time it seemed all encompassing but in hindsight there are a lot worse things that can happen in life than an emotional affair, although at the time it seems nothing could be worse.

My concern is that I feel as if my husband might be STARTING down that path again based upon what I know about his business personality in general and what we discussed in counseling about how his previous EA started. I would not call my husband a repeat or chronic "offender." No, I do not think his current instant messaging is appropriate but I also need to point out that at his level he is booked solid in meetings all day long so he literally IMs both men and women he works with throughout the day as it is the only means of communicating during meetings that he must attend but in a more passive capacity. The same is true for the other people he works with. The only IMs I find concerning are the ones with this woman and at this point she is the one driving everything. What concerns me is that he is responding more than I think makes sense for someone at his level. He isn't yet instigating - but I am concerned that if it doesn't stop it might go there because they could become too familiar and comfortable with one another. I don't think this is an EA - YET. But I think it could go there.

Maybe I should focus on another section of the discussion boards that might give me suggestions on how to help me PREVENT it from going there? There isn't anything to reveal to anyone - I can't very well reveal that my husband is IMing a woman at work about work when he IMs other men and women at work about work too but say that I feel like their particular emails are just a bit to friendly for my comfort level. There isn't anything sexual being said. They don't talk or IM outside of business hours - my husband is always with me so I would know. We walk the dog together so he doesn't go off and sneak away to take personal phone calls.

You are reading WAY too much into how I described him! I was also in management at a Fortune 100 company and everyone has their own way of making themselves successful. Some people use fear tactics to scare the crap out of people into performing for fear of losing their jobs, others do nothing but micro-manage all day, some delegate to the extreme of never never lifting a finger and getting everyone else to do the work and then reaping the glory for themselves, others know just how to connect themselves politically to the right people, some are able to predict well how to strategically place themselves at exactly the right positions at the right time. Not all the ways people find of getting ahead are ethical or popular but thise of you who work at Fortune 500 or Fortune 100 companies in upper management or executive management know that you don't get there just by coming in everyday and doing your job. You have to take on extra work and special projects and find some way of making yourself unique to the company and a valuable assets. My husband happens to be good at building relationship with people. That wasn't code for flirting with every female in the office. I literally meant he climbed his way to the top by being able to build relationships with people by making EVERYONE he works with feel "special" - again that isn't code for making them feel like he is coming on to them. He is able to do this with both men an women. He can work with a team of people he can't stand and completely disagrees with how they want to approach a project and by the time the meeting is over they all think he loves them, he has gotten them all to agree to do what he wants them to do, and they all think it was their idea. But he didn't manipulate them, he literally built a relationship with them in two hours and managed to convince them to do it his way. He is able to make everyone on his teams feels important and vital to a project. He is the guy that the Vice Presidents and CEO asks to go in and clean up projects that have fallen apart or have never gotten off the ground because they know he will be able to pull the various disagreeing members of various teams together into one cohesive group and get them to all agree and work together. That doesn't always happen in Fortune 100 or 500 corporations where things can get cut throat.

The problem that happens is when you have women who misread how he builds relationships and making them feel "special" as if he has singled them out as being special. I have noticed it tends to be women who don't seem to be getting much support from their husband's at home who tend to misread him - we have actually talked about this before. It has never been single women and it has never been women who have husband's who are employed and who have "bigger" jobs than they do and make more money than they do. It has always been married women who husband's have been unemployed, underemployed, losers who can't seem to keep a job and the woman is the responsible one holding the family together, or women who have MUCH bigger jobs than their husband and talk very negatively about having to be the primary breadwinner. His previous EA was with a woman who had a "bigger" job than her husband and spoke very negatively about him.

But in the past if I have recognized a situation where it seemed like someone was starting to cross into that area of inappriate interest in my husband I would meet her and could easily do away with my concerns once that happened because the desparation practically oozed from their pores. And from being around my husband's calls and teleconferences and seeing his IMs I could see there was nothing there.

This one feels different. But it doesn't feel like it has started yet. With his previous one - I knew it had started.

I must also say my husband's skill at building relationships is not something he is even aware that he does - it's just the way he works. And it is probably more prevalent with men given the number of contacts he has in his field spread across the other various corporations that he still speaks with on a regular basis who he used to work with at one time or another. We still have dinner with people he/we worked with over 20 years ago. This is part of the difficulty. It's hard to get him to see what could be potentially leading "some" women on but not others when it is work behavior that, for all intents and purposes, isn't a problem. It's only when a women responds inappropriately and he doesn't necessarily identify that early on and doesn't recognize that by not pulling back he is unintentially leading her on that it becomes a problem.

People don't accidentally recover from unrevealed affairs any more than you can luck out with undiagnosed leukaemia.

It is a SPECIFIC and narrow path to recovery.

She could well be a serial cheat by now.

Dr H recommends exposure even if the affair was 20 years ago!





Wow that is so unprofessional! He must already have a reputation as the skeevy boss. I know the last boss who tried to IM me did. All the women who were not flirting their way up were disgusted and blocked him on FB - before leaving the firm. Nothing 'sexual' but honestly IMing some one at home is super weirdo creepy.

I think you've been living in this 'it's just my personality' la la land too long if you think avoiding actual sexual comments makes it OK.

Your instincts aren't wrong.

This is how people date and fall in love. Not with sex talk, but emotional support, humour and by being there for each other.

Super worrying and they should both know how weird and inappropriate this is.

That lack of awareness and intent is how ALL affairs start. Your husband isn't special, he's like everybody else in danger of having an affair. No boundaries, no real idea of what he's doing.

A big part of the problem is your acceptance of it. It's unacceptable and it isn't other women's job to respond well, it's his job to be professional. Also, if you'd exposed the first affair you wouldn't have such an uphill job now. Supporters of your marriage would all have told him that it is creepy, needy, attention seeking behaviour and to knock it off.

Legomom, I am a very successful manager at my company and my employees feel valued and special without crossing an inappropriate line. It is not a matter of "style" but a matter of plain old unprofessional behavior. I say this as someone who has exceptional relationships internally and externally. The type and amount of contact you described with this woman is inappropriate and unprofessional; his "style" is giving her the wrong signal. Sure, there are female predators out there, but his management style sends the message that he is open for business. One does not have to do that in order to be successful. And he IS open for business as evidenced by his previous affair. He will have to change his approach with women if he wants to protect his marriage from affairs.

One of the biggest red flags I see here is that he does not want you looking at his emails, etc. That is an indicator of one thing: he has something to hide.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about your husbands professional behavior. That is a waste of our time. Did you read the action steps I posted?

I am confused on what you have access to. You said he has changed his passwords but you looked through his emails? What exactly do you have access to today.

How long has this woman been part of the project team?

Whoa!! I never said ANYTHING about him IMing anyone on Facebook or IMing anyone at home!!

The ONLY IM's I am talking about are the COMPANY IMs. His COMPANY has a COMPANY instant messaging system that ALL of the company employees are automatically entered to when they join the company. ALL of the employees IM each other about work issues EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Do none of you here ACTUALLY work at a large corporation???? I have worked at two large Fortune 100 corporations in the past 15 years and BOTH of them had a COMPANY instant messaging system that was used by every employee in the company to conduct business. My husband has worked at 3 large Fortune 100 or 500 corporations in the past 30 years and all 3 have had company instant messaging systems. NO ONE is considered a skanky boss or employee for using the instant messaging system, in fact if you didn't use it you would probably be fired for not responding to business requests and inquiries!

He is NOT IMing, emailing, or calling this woman at home or outside of business hours. He is also not the one initiating any of the "good morning" IMs. All of his IMs to her have been about business, she is the one who directs the conversation elsewhere. The phone calls have been scheduled calls about their project (I have checked his calendar) and I listen in from the hallway so I know they are actually about business, but she diverts the conversation to personal stuff about what she did over the weekend and tries to joke around with him. Or it is her randomly calling him during the day saying she needs to talk to him about the project. If he can't talk because he has a meeting she always wants to schedule time to talk. She will also randomly IM him to see if he can IM (he asks "what's up?" or "what do you need?") or will try to schedule time to IM.

But like I said, the concerning piece to me is how he sounds when he talks to her. Typically this would be behavior that would be annoying and "needy" to him but it doesn't seem to be and I can tell when he is talking to her because even though it is about business he just sounds different. He works with a bunch of women and talks to all of them on the phone but I can tell when he is talking to her, even though the folks on this team all talk about essentially the same issues.

I should also point out in case I haven't already that I stay at home so I am home all during the day while he works from home so it's not like he has 8-10 hours alone at home to do whatever while I am away at an office. I can listen to him all day long from the living room and hallway and can access his email and IMs all day long.

That's hardly very much better. He's messaging her to just chat for emotional reasons only. Its particularly weird male to female and to a subordinate.

I've been a journalist for over ten years and worked for large news corporations. I have seen lots of people behave the way you describe your husband behaving - but only people who end up affairs.

When you said that some people "style" was flirting, and other people's style was "fear" - I actually wondered if you had ever met a professional person.

Just because someone works for a big company doesn't automatically make them a professional.

Like I said, your instincts are dead on.

He encourages her. She IMs him in an impertinent way because he invites her to. By how he talks to her.

He makes it very clear that he is open for business.


Most bosses would be very unimpressed if their subordinate was IMing them like that during working hours. But she knows it's OK.

huh? How in the world does it make a difference if the IMing is done on facebook or LYNC? My company uses LYNC and we don't IM each other all day. Good grief. In fact, MOST employees here don't even use it. My husband's company has it too and he blocks everyone except a few men that he communicates with on a regular basis. Any females have to send him an email. I am baffled how this makes any difference, though. To answer your snotty remark, my company is #43 on the Fortune 500 list. My last company [15 years ago] was #8.

As such, the fact that your husband ALLOWS this coworker to take up so much of his time indicates he is part of the problem. If one of my employees was IMing me and trying to communicate with me that much, I would put a stop to it. Your husband doesn't seem to recognize the risk and is allowing this. He has had poor boundaries in the past and I can see he still has them.

Do they see each other on business trips? You say she is out of state, but I would assume she has planes in her state?

Did you read my previous post?

I have access to his work computer and to his iPad which has his work email and instant messages as well as his phone logs for some of his phone numbers on it. I also have access to those phone logs via his work computer. Some of his company programs come up automatically when he logs in - like email, IMs, the phone system. But things like the travel expense system is a separate area that requires a separate login - honestly I wouldn't even have any idea how to find it, like most large corporations they have a very large and complex intranet system.

I don't know the passcode to his personal cell phone - the one our family and friends use or to his actual company cell phone (but I don't really know if that matters - the executives have several phone numbers and they are all routed through a central phone number that reaches them through their company phone and their computer (as well as is routed to his iPad).

His personal email goes to his iPad as well. I don't know the passwords to his individual credit card accounts.

Once again, I will point out that my husband's work style is NOT flirting. If it were there would be hundreds of men who would have to think that my husband was also flirting with them and I can assure you they do not!! He does not treat the women he works with any differently from the men. Hence the reason I say I can tell when he is talking to this particular woman on the phone. If his style was flirting - he would sound the same with every woman he talks to but he would sound different with the men.

Can you get a keylogger on his work computer? He can easily delete any emails. If you had a keylogger, it would show you the link to his expense system along with his password. You could easily sign in and look at his expenses.


If these are iphones, you can install spyware without knowing his passcode. You can also retreive any and all deleted texts.


You are seriously wasting our time arguing about how to characterize his behavior. WE GET IT. Now, can we move onto solutions?

Yeah popularity with men was also a big deal with my ex husband - It doesn't make a need to be popular with women any less dangerous.

Its common for people who do not spend a lot of UA time with their spouse to need a wide circle, just like a single person.

The thing is, he could choose to be popular with just male friends, particularly given he's already had an EA - he's not a moron.

He must realise that being this way with female subordinates is pretty risky professionally and personally. He probably does.


But being popular with women, especially if he likes a particular woman, is more important than being professional.

It's also more important than his marriage since he must know how you'd feel about it. Most women who'd already survived one affair would be reaching for the bags.

I would keep up very heavy snooping.