Welcome Sue.

Don't be ridiculous. If other men notice you and he doesn't need you, there is a good reason.

Either he has a medical condition of low testosterone or he's got something on the side. No initiating and ED screams porn addiction. One cause of ED is too much self service. It could also be other online activity or female on the side.

You came here asking for help, but you're rejecting the advice of the most experienced posters.

You will be SHOCKED when you put a keylogger on his computer/phone. Why wouldn't you have a right to put anything on marital property that is 50% yours? You guys might keep things separated but that doesn't mean that they are not owned by you both.

My husband never spent $ on porn. There's plenty of material for free. Men who put little effort into the relationship lurv porn. Much easier than having to please you. Just takes a minute or two.

Don't be naive. You are on the right track.

Start with this issue because you have to rule it out before anything else. When you find the answer, come back for advice. Quietly snoop and don't ask your husband.

Many men (ETA: &women) don't see witholding information as deceit. They figure that what you don't know can't hurt you. Ya know, "It's my own personal business and my wife will be better off not knowing" is how they often rationalize.

Aren't you at least curious? You are better off knowing than seeing yourself as unattractive.

I agree with Prisca that if you aren't going to rule out an affair then how can you know what is wrong in your marriage?

You also need to stop the AOs.
Anger Management 101

There have been cases in the past on this forum where wives installed spyware and discovered a homosexual affair.
But they would not have known without the spyware.

And why would that be? Could it be because we have experience and know the signs.....and you don't? It is like a master mechanic who listens to engine knocks every day for 15 years. Is he "biased" or is he so experienced that he becomes an expert at identifying engine knocks?

It has nothing to do with a personal "history, " and everything to do with experience.


Yes, I believe we have heard this a few hundred times only to find out there is an affair. A couple times a month an unsuspecting poster will come back and say "you were right, there is an affair." [this week it is a poster named Texan] Please don't waste our time. If there is an affair, the advice we give is completely different. It needs to be ruled out.

Just to echo the other posters, his lack of interest in sex seems like a huge red flag to me. As a man, I can say it makes no sense at all unless he either has a medical condition or is getting something else on the side.

I also thought my WW wasn't having an affair because I trusted her so completely, but Melody and others on the forum were correct and I found out she was. I think almost instinctively no one wants to think that their spouse is having an affair, because it's such a repugnant thing and it goes against everything we think we know about our spouses. Sadly that isn't always the reality - people can be very good at leading double lives and hiding their true intentions.

Does he ever leave his phone laying around or is he always careful to take it with him at all times? Does he keep it under the pillow at night? Before putting spyware on it, I would just try to get a hold of it and look at it directly. If you can't do so without him knowing then that says something right there. Also if he leaves his computer logged on, I would look at his browser history. First try the "low hanging fruit" and then if this doesn't turn up anything, consider putting spyware on.

It also may pay to poke around his car or other places he hangs around at home (maybe a work area or an office desk if you have one) just to make sure he doesn't have a second secret phone. Even if he isn't having an affair or using porn, you absolutely have to rule that out before you can begin solving the problem.

Again, spyware is out as an option. Lots of issues here, as I mentioned before. Spyware, unless you coded it yourself and can verify that it is safe, is likely to set yourself up for identity theft (I'm a programmer myself...I know how easy it would be to leave an opening in something like that...). I sign a code of conduct at work that forbids me from hacking into any system (yes, I would interpret this to include deliberately installing malware on a privately owned machine, because we occasionally use home computers to do work-related activities). I would have to have him log in to his computer using his login in order to install anything, then somehow send him away while I install something on his computer that he's likely to notice (assuming that the virus protection doesn't immediately squash it)--also not practical. And attempting to install anything on his work computer (the one that I have the least possibility of casually seeing, since it's a desktop machine in his workplace) would get me arrested. I don't intend to get myself fired, or thrown in jail (and subsequently fired) on the advice of an internet forum.

I have looked at his phone. There's nothing there. I've seen his gmail account. Nada. I am in his car nearly daily. No phones. There are plenty of places in the basement office are where he could stash a second phone if he chose, because the place looks like a tornado hit it--I suppose I could take a week off work to clean the place looking for one, and still never find it. But when he puts things "away" and out of site, he tends to lose them. He spreads all his belongings out where everything is visible or else he loses track of it (a habit that to me is annoying behavior, but our daughter does it too...). So I'm thinking the chances of him hiding a phone are pretty minimal.

If he's having an affair, the only possibility is an emotional one conducted at work. There is literally no time in his schedule for anything else. The man never leaves home without me or the kids unless he's at work. And no odd extra hours, suspicous work trips, strange lunchtime restaurant charges, etc, etc.

So, I cannot disprove the existence of something. Spyware's not going to fix that.

When I posted here originally, I guess I was hoping for more than one type of idea. I might actually be happy to see that he's having an affair, because that might explain what's going on. If he were getting emotional support or sex from some other person, maybe he would be willing to tell me what that person does that I'm not.

I am afraid that our issues are nowhere near that simple to diagnose.

This morning, I was reading http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5067c_qa.html (not sure how to link that better). That article describes a lot of what's happening now.

I'm upset. Have been for years. He ignores me, doesn't play with me (RC), doesn't discuss issues with me (he used to run every financial decision past his father instead of talking to me). He doesn't look at me (admiration), and his form of affection doesn't match mine and actually falls under annoying behavior (he tries to grab me when I'm actively busy doing things like cutting veggies or brushing my teeth--then sulks when I ask him to wait). He makes fun of things that I enjoy (and then tries to play it off like he's teasing me). There is more.

I'm sure there are things that i'm failing to do for him, but he has shut down so far that he refuses to tell me what he likes, what he wants. I will try to propose something that to me sounds fun (e.g. plan a vacation). He refuses to even discuss the question. He refuses to engage when there's a conflict, refuses to offer suggestions. I make demands in order to get him to contribute to a decision (especially in cases where there is a ticking clock). I end up making disrespectful judgements (especially when I feel like he doesn't listen to what I'm presenting and second-guesses conclusions that I've drawn without adding any of his own). Lately, I'm just plain mean when he refuses to talk--I know I'm just trying to provoke any reaction, even a bad one). Eventually, I end up "yelling" at him (not always yelling loudly, more lashing out verbally). I can get him to engage in any kind of discussion that way.

I know it's not helping. When considerate questions fail to start a conversation. When requests that are mindful of his feelings fail to start a conversation. When even something like asking what he would like to do for his birthday gets me either the silent treatment or he makes me decide for him (then acts upset at my choice). All of those things have made the frustration build to the point where I have an angry outburst (or several). I don't know how to do anything nice for him because he ignores or ridicules my attempts (refuses to eat what he used to consider his favorite foods, turns down sex, pays no attention to me picking up extra chores). He refuses to do recreational things that he likes with me, and acts upset if I suggest that he has time to go do one of his own (independent) activities. Sometimes I think that if I suggested that he breathe, that he would turn blue out of spite. The only thing that seems to work is for me to be quiet, make no conversation, quietly do housework and take care of the kids and offer no personality of my own. Offer no complaints, no conflicts. Not invite him to do anything. Not attempt to do anything of my own that keeps him from doing what he likes. Then, he acts like everything is good.

I'm out of ideas of how to deflect the anger I feel. I don't know how to turn things around. I don't even know how far back to look for how this horrible pattern started (I suspect that it's all been there since the beginning) I think I need to get out of there so that all of the existing issues don't just keep piling on with new ones, but I'm here instead, trying to figure out what else to try.

What about a PI?

If he's having AOs, Dr. Harley would tell you to separate immediately until he gets into an Angry management program aand has it under control for at least a year before you go back.

Its Dr Hs advice. Our histiories happened because we were NOT snoopers.

I don't feel the need in my current relationship because it's so transparent and there is no mystery or problem.

But there were huge mysteries - like a disappeared sex life in my marriage.

If I'd snooped I would have prevented a 2 yr affair going on under my nose.

What kind of silliness is this?

Look, if you don't want to use all the resources at your disposal, then don't. You don't need to justify it. You certainly don't need to educate us. Anybody who is going to be cowed by arguments like this is also somebody who is too timid to fight for their marriage.

Spyware is an excellent tool. Dr. Harley highly recommends it. But if you are afraid, then so be it. You are not the authority here. We can cite lots of cases where marriages have been saved. I doubt there is even one instance where the use of commercial spyware resulted in third party identity theft. Your argument is just a red herring.

Why come here and ask for help if you are going to be close minded to the answers? I want to point out that you are the least objective person on this thread. We can't help you if you refuse to listen to the advice. I am sure you don't WANT to believe your husband is having an affair so it is understandable why you would be so resistant. But we need you to get over that if we are going to help you solve this problem.

If you had used all the energy you applied to finding excuses not to snoop [which were ridiculous] to finding ways to do it you would be much farther ahead. You want "other ideas" as if there is a cafeteria plan where you select your favorite dessert. That is not how this works.

We have to rule out an affair FIRST or all the advice we give you will be for naught.

He is your spouse for heaven's sake. His devices are your marital property, you can put anything you want on them, it's the exact same as parental controls.

No one is saying hack into workplace devices. That is just silly.

Looking at his phone. Only helpful if he doesn't know how to delete things which is unlikely.



Oh yeah every cheater is dying to discuss the affair with his wife.

You fundamentally misunderstand affairs. They are all emotional. The vast majority take place at work. They require hardly any time at all. You could be picking him up from work and there could still be one. The OW, if there is one, isn't offering anything better than what you have. There is no way to compete with it by being a good wife either.

They are also massively easy to find if you bother to look in a way he isnt expecting. A few days if that.

Again, we cannot help you.

Hire a PI then.

Don't just ride this mess as is.

Be daring and brave and cross the line of being gullible.

Knowledge is power.

***EDIT***

This whole question sounds petty, but the pattern is similar to how a lot of things between us happen.

Here's what happened (briefly):

We had multiple activities going on last night, so I bought a pre-made chicken, fruit salad, and deviled eggs from the grocery store (plus added frozen sugar peas from home). I fed the kids, then I took them with me to the Y for an exercise class. H has a volleyball league, so doesn't get home from work till after his game and then eats when he got home (while kids and I were still at Y). I planned to eat when I got home (can't eat before exercise). I set aside meat in fridge for me, texted him to share what/where everything was.

When I got home, H had eaten all the fruit salad (plus his share of the chicken and presumably the peas, though I didn't verify he didn't toss them..he doesn't care for them). There was a lot of fruit left--3/4 the container (after 2 kids had their shares) and I was disappointed/annoyed/hurt that he didn't save me any. I was really hungry and had spent 3 hours anticipating a yummy meal only to find that someone else had eaten some of it (I did still have chicken and peas, and ended up adding a piece of toast because I was still hungry).

His response: I didn't leave him enough meat. He had the largest share of any of us--a full breast plus part of the other, plus whatever else was on the bone. When I told him that I didn't understand, that I left him the same portion he usually eats, he told me I should have made mashed potatoes to go with it. He didn't have an egg either (they were a request from our son).

At that point, I did not do well and kept explaining to tell him that it bothered me until he gave me an grudging "I'm sorry" followed a grudging "what do you want me to do about it now?". To me, he wasn't sorry, he was rude. And then when i tried to tell him this morning that I was still feeling hurt that he didn't take my feelings into account before eating the food, and that I was even more hurt that I felt he dismissed the problem when I tried to tell him how I felt. So then he was defensive about how he claims to have apologized and is mad at me for not accepting his "apology" (which is actually true--I should not have asked for it the way I did, but nor do I believe for a second that he had any remorse at all about the situation, and even less care for how that made me feel).

How do you hand a conflict where the action has already occurred? Next time, obviously, we can buy two chickens or add additional sides. But what about the rest?

I'm sure there is something I was missing about the whole dinner issue, and I guess I don't know how to share feelings in a way that doesn't leave me feeling worse afterwards.

Sue, the concepts of the Marriage Builders program can help you and your husband learn to handle conflicts like this, as well as much more complicated conflicts. Are you on board with trying to learn to use those concepts? Is your husband?

I see from your other thread that you are thinking about leaving.

Sue, I would immerse yourself into the marriage builders program so you and your husband can learn the necessary skills to resolve your problems. If you post about specific conflicts you won't learn anything.

If you'd put the foundation of this program in place, this conflict probably wouldn't have happened.

MBers spend 15 hours alone together and 15 hours family time, which involves eating dinner together usually.

Also Dr H encourages couples to do evening chores together.

It's hard to PoJA when you're not together.

So, here's the feedback I've received over and over from this forum:

I appear to not have read any of the concepts.
I appear to not be practicing any of the concepts.
My husband does not appear to be practicing any of the concepts.
Any time I ask a question, I am grilled on whether I have read any of the concepts and am practicing them.
I am encouraged to make choices and take actions that are, to me, ethically and legally questionable. When I say so (including explaining as plainly as I can in an open internet forum exactly what the problem, reservations, and likely consequences are about), I am told that no one can help me because I choose to stick to my principles.

Here is my take-away from it:

This is not the place for me to ask for help.

That's the short version.

The long version of my current frustration is more of a long vent.

Yes, I've read everything on the site. Yes, I have two of his books (which are 90% the same, btw--and 90% the same as what is here...glad to have paid the good Dr royalties on that one). No my husband hasn't read them. I'm working up to that. I keep hoping to find a breather between un-planned fights (hah!) where I can offer them without making him feel like it's a demand. I think he views everything I say (including offhand comments about myself that aren't even directed at him) as some kind of selfish demand. I tried to take one incident out of the week and ask for help getting a little perspective on what might have happened. I thought it might be a step in the right direction.

Instead, I'm being told (repeatedly) that my questions aren't wanted here because I don't meet some other criteria (or have failed to prove that I meet it).

Fine. I will figure this out elsewhere. Not sure whether that will be with a marriage counselor or an attorney at this point, or both.

Sorry to waste everyone's time.