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I've been feeling very down lately. I don't know if any of the FWWs on here actually left their husbands with the intention of being with the AP, but my WW has done exactly that. Our divorce will be final soon. I find myself thinking about what if she were to come back, how could I ever believe that she would not leave me again? My WW never complained to me about anything. That's not an exaggeration. It's not that I just ignored her complaints. She really did not complain (even now she cannot or will not point to anything specific). So I was completely blindsided. Right up until the end she was telling me she loved me (apparently in her mind it was a sibling-like love). So how could I possibly know in the future whether she was faking it or not?

I know this is a hypothetical because there's no guarantee and currently no indication that she would ever come back, but if I could work this out in my mind it would be easier to move on without her. I'm still in love with her, and I don't want to live my life without her, but living my life with her would be just as miserable if I could never believe she was in love with me, too.


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The sibling-love thing is an obvious re-write of history. It's another version of ILYBNILWY which simply means there is a new point of reference. An affair is like candy - so much sweeter and more addictive than natural food.

She loved you and as long as you exclude OS friends from your recovery there will be no new point of reference to ruin things.


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Thanks, indiegirl. I like the candy analogy.


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Originally Posted by nmwb77
My WW never complained to me about anything. That's not an exaggeration. It's not that I just ignored her complaints. She really did not complain (even now she cannot or will not point to anything specific). So I was completely blindsided. Right up until the end she was telling me she loved me (apparently in her mind it was a sibling-like love). So how could I possibly know in the future whether she was faking it or not?

That sounds very much like Prisca. Somewhere in 2010 she has a post about how she felt that her Giver nearly ruined our marriage. She nearly never complained (and when she did complain I didn't address the problems or didn't address them in a timely way). She basically felt that she shouldn't complain.

The great thing about the Marriage Builders program is it is like a manual for clueless husbands like me to tell us what our wives need even if our wives don't tell us or can't tell us. Your wife needs 15-30 ours of your undivided attention each week. You probably don't need anywhere near this much time, but she does. That time needs to be spent meeting the four intimate emotional needs: recreational companionship, conversation (featuring the four friends of good conversation), affection, and sexual fulfillment. Regardless of what the husband and the wife rate as their "highest" needs.

And the marriage needs to be free of Love Busters. No demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts.

I CAN PROMISE YOU THAT NEARLY EVERY SINGLE HUSBAND HERE IS UTTERLY BLIND AND CLUELESS WHEN IT COMES TO RECOGNIZING THEIR OWN DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENTS. Even today after years of effort I still sometimes say something that Prisca finds disrespectful, with no clue in advance that she is going to feel that way. I keep honing my skills. You have got to be super, super good at recognizing and eliminating disrespectful judgments if you want to be a good husband for most women. Most women I'm aware of will not nicely tell you that you have been disrespectful and help you understand; they will just curl up and withdraw from you. So you've got to figure this out with almost no help from your wife.

And of course no dishonesty; total radical honesty; no independent behavior; perfect adherence to the policy of joint agreement.

Beyond that, full integration into each other's lives; she is fully invited into every "room" in your life.

Almost every woman will be happy if she has all of the above, and unhappy if she does not. Many women will not tell you if you are missing the mark on some of this, though, so you need to get help honing your skills (never miss a Marriage Builders Radio, and practice helping other husbands learn to not be disrespectful and to empathize with their wives), and you need to solicit regular feedback from your wife (even if she doesn't often take you up on the opportunity).

My guess is that like most husbands here you were missing the mark on some of the above, even if you think you were doing great. Most husbands who come are are missing the mark, and most get pissed off and/or ignore us when we tell them, but giving heed to this and tuning up "husband" performance is one of the main keys most guys who come here need. Don't be satisfied with peacefully coexisting; that is enough for most guys, but not enough for most women.

All of that said, we all know that you can be doing everything absolutely perfect and your spouse can still have an affair if they do not keep good boundaries. So you want to be snooping at times until snooping feels boring. And you want to be the kind of person who, if your wife enjoys a friendship with another man, would without hesitation declare it to the world on a billboard.

If you remarry in the future, it would be good to discuss all of this ahead of time. A woman who is in love will usually feel great about most or all of the above.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Marriages that are completely happy can be blindsided by an affair. Her boundaries were poor around men, and she let one of them meet her emotional needs, and THAT is why she had an affair.

Happy Marriage + Good Boundaries = No Affair
Happy Marriage + Bad Boundaries = Affair
UNhappy Marriage + Good Boundaries = No Affair
UNhappy Marriage + Bad Boundaries = Affair

If she were to ever come back, the two of you would need to set up Extraordinary Precautions, which would make your boundaries very firm.


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Originally Posted by markos
She basically felt that she shouldn't complain.

She wrote those exact words to me recently.

Originally Posted by markos
My guess is that like most husbands here you were missing the mark on some of the above, even if you think you were doing great. Most husbands who come are are missing the mark, and most get pissed off and/or ignore us when we tell them, but giving heed to this and tuning up "husband" performance is one of the main keys most guys who come here need. Don't be satisfied with peacefully coexisting; that is enough for most guys, but not enough for most women.

I know I was missing the mark. I hope that I didn't come across as implying that I was perfect. Far from it. I know I was way off mark on many things, especially undivided attention. I also had angry outbursts every now and then. I didn't think it was a problem since it was rare. I realize now I should have stopped after the first time. Apologies after the fact aren't enough.

Thank you, markos, for your thoughtful response. If she were to come back, then I'd want her to get on board with MB. It's encouraging to know that people in a similar situation have made it work.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Marriages that are completely happy can be blindsided by an affair. Her boundaries were poor around men, and she let one of them meet her emotional needs, and THAT is why she had an affair.

Happy Marriage + Good Boundaries = No Affair
Happy Marriage + Bad Boundaries = Affair
UNhappy Marriage + Good Boundaries = No Affair
UNhappy Marriage + Bad Boundaries = Affair

If she were to ever come back, the two of you would need to set up Extraordinary Precautions, which would make your boundaries very firm.

Thank you, Prisca. I thought we had a happy marriage. All the rewriting of history has made me question everything, though.

Yes, I would definitely require the extraordinary precautions. Lately I've been wondering if even those would be enough, hence my question today.


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Originally Posted by nmwb77
Originally Posted by markos
She basically felt that she shouldn't complain.

She wrote those exact words to me recently.

I think it's extremely common.

At first glance, Marriage Builders seems to reveal a perfect world where a wife will spell out for you in exact detail exactly what to do to keep her 100% head over heels in love with you. But there are a million reasons that most wives don't do that at 100% and many are closer to 0%. Among other things, many wives get annoyed if they have to KEEP spelling it out. Eventually the clueless husband needs to become a great husband. If he'll follow this plan, he will be.

When Prisca wasn't interested in giving me enough feedback, Steve Harley explained to me that the forms and paperwork of Marriage Builders were basically a shortcut to getting my wife to fall in love with me. It's a "nice to have." In my case, most of the time I did not get that, and Steve said I had to take the longer route of trial and error. I would hasten to add that that trial and error needs to happen within the framework of following the rest of Marriage Builders, as I described above: POUA, PORH, POJA, and eliminate the three abusive love busters.

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I know I was missing the mark. I hope that I didn't come across as implying that I was perfect.

No, not at all! I just think it's important to emphasize, because one of the most important things we do here is help husbands realize how much more they can do.

As you are seeing right now, there is really a lot of optimism and hope that can come from realizing how much more you can do. The perfect guys who fight with us and leave end up hopeless.

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I know I was way off mark on many things, especially undivided attention. I also had angry outbursts every now and then. I didn't think it was a problem since it was rare. I realize now I should have stopped after the first time. Apologies after the fact aren't enough.

I would say if you ever have an angry outburst again, get yourself a GSR meter.

And I'm assuming you're listening to the Marriage Builders Radio program DAILY to help reinforce these beliefs in you. Otherwise you are going to end up thinking an occasional angry outburst is normal, or something like that, and sabotage your chances at happiness.

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Thank you, markos, for your thoughtful response. If she were to come back, then I'd want her to get on board with MB. It's encouraging to know that people in a similar situation have made it work.

One other thing you should know: when the reluctant spouse is the wife, and the husband is enthusiastic about MB, Dr. Harley is optimistic.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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I also had angry outbursts every now and then.
Markos' angry outbursts destroyed any love I felt for him. You cannot expect to have a good marriage where angry outbursts occur.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
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I also had angry outbursts every now and then.
Markos' angry outbursts destroyed any love I felt for him. You cannot expect to have a good marriage where angry outbursts occur.


Yes, I know that now. But seriously, it was about three times in 16 years. It will NEVER happen again, though, if I get another shot at it. I honestly had no clue it was a lovebuster. It was normal in my family.


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Originally Posted by markos
I would say if you ever have an angry outburst again, get yourself a GSR meter.

Another thing she did not like was my aggressive driving (honking the horn, tailgating people that pull out in front of me). I have completely stopped that. I know I am capable of controlling my anger. I guess I just needed the proper motivation. Aggressive driving is ridiculous when you stop to think about it. I'm embarrassed that I ever did things like that. Again, that was one of the things that was normal in my family, so I didn't think it was that bad until I really stopped and thought about it.

Originally Posted by markos
One other thing you should know: when the reluctant spouse is the wife, and the husband is enthusiastic about MB, Dr. Harley is optimistic.

That is nice to hear. I'm more than enthusiastic, but my WW has checked out and has given me absolutely no indication of having second thoughts. Hopefully she will have them someday.


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But seriously, it was about three times in 16 years.
"But seriously, I only dropped 3 nuclear bombs on my wife in 16 years."

Start watching for phrases like "But seriously." Those words tend to minimize, which is a disrespectful judgement.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
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But seriously, it was about three times in 16 years.
"But seriously, I only dropped 3 nuclear bombs on my wife in 16 years."

Start watching for phrases like "But seriously." Those words tend to minimize, which is a disrespectful judgement.

Duly noted. But was that enough to kill her love for me? I don't mean to minimize, and if those outbursts were what caused her to fall out of love with me, then it's a very serious issue, indeed. In any case, I vow never to do it again.


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Originally Posted by nmwb77
Originally Posted by Prisca
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But seriously, it was about three times in 16 years.
"But seriously, I only dropped 3 nuclear bombs on my wife in 16 years."

Start watching for phrases like "But seriously." Those words tend to minimize, which is a disrespectful judgement.

Duly noted. But was that enough to kill her love for me? I don't mean to minimize, and if those outbursts were what caused her to fall out of love with me, then it's a very serious issue, indeed. In any case, I vow never to do it again.

It's a difficult hurdle to really get to the the deep set belief that angry outbursts need to be eliminated in marriage and should not be tolerated in marriage. When you get to the point where you would tell any woman including your wife that if her husband reserves the right to have an angry outburst once in awhile, she should separate from him, then you are there.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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So what about cases I hear on the radio and read about on the forum where the wife is very argumentative and the husband either withdraws or escalates the situation?

I really appreciate the advice given in this thread as I feel like it describes the relationship dynamic my wife and I had as well. I just wonder how many women really think it's better to bottle things up. Sort of contradicts the policy of radical honesty.

You guys have experience here that I'm don't so I'm not challenging you, just curious.


Happily remarried to wonderful woman who I found using the guidelines in "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders"
2 baby boys, working on #3 and couldn't ask for anything more.

When my ex's affair happened: BH 28, Ex-WW:29
Married: 7 years
Together: 8 years
D-day: 10/5/2014
D filed: 1/22/2015
D Final: 6/4/2015

My story
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Originally Posted by markos
It's a difficult hurdle to really get to the the deep set belief that angry outbursts need to be eliminated in marriage and should not be tolerated in marriage. When you get to the point where you would tell any woman including your wife that if her husband reserves the right to have an angry outburst once in awhile, she should separate from him, then you are there.

See that's where I get hopeless again. If my angry outbursts were unforgivable, then I should wish her well and hope she finds happiness. I'm committed to avoiding them in the future, but if the ones in the past justify her leaving me, then what am I doing hoping she comes back?


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Originally Posted by nmwb77
Originally Posted by markos
It's a difficult hurdle to really get to the the deep set belief that angry outbursts need to be eliminated in marriage and should not be tolerated in marriage. When you get to the point where you would tell any woman including your wife that if her husband reserves the right to have an angry outburst once in awhile, she should separate from him, then you are there.

See that's where I get hopeless again. If my angry outbursts were unforgivable, then I should wish her well and hope she finds happiness. I'm committed to avoiding them in the future, but if the ones in the past justify her leaving me, then what am I doing hoping she comes back?

The thing about forgiveness is that it's not an entitlement program.

Waywards are not entitled to forgiveness for infidelity.

And abusers are not entitled to forgiveness for angry outbursts.

There are reasons for both, but no excuses.

Now, the victims of infidelity and of abuse often conclude that it is in their own best interest to reconcile, and they are usually right if the offender eliminates their behavior.

Marriage is not a suicide pact where the spouses promise each other unconditional love and a commitment to stay legally married for life regardless of what the other does. I would never judge someone for ending their marriage over infidelity, even if the wayward has completely eliminated everything that could possibly lead to infidelity and is making just compensation. And I would never judge someone for ending their marriage over their spouse's angry outbursts. Nobody got married with a commitment to overlook such behavior, and they are well within their rights to refuse to tolerate it.

That is not a belief most of us came to Marriage Builders with, but it's a belief I have definitely adopted, at a deep level.

Of course, by the exact same token, while I would never judge someone for ending their marriage over infidelity or abuse (or in fact a whole host of other things) - I absolutely WOULD fault them for responding to any of those issues with infidelity or abuse. It is one thing to say I can't live with my spouse's angry outbursts and I'm ending the marriage - it is another thing entirely to punish my spouse in the most horrendous way possible, by keeping him married to me and having an affair. That is beyond inexcusable. I have seen affairs that were punished by affairs. I have seen affairs that were punished by abuse. I have seen abuse that was punished by affairs.

None of this is justifiable. I don't believe that punishment is compatible at any level with the relationship of extraordinary care that marriage is.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by axslinger85
So what about cases I hear on the radio and read about on the forum where the wife is very argumentative and the husband either withdraws or escalates the situation?

I really appreciate the advice given in this thread as I feel like it describes the relationship dynamic my wife and I had as well. I just wonder how many women really think it's better to bottle things up. Sort of contradicts the policy of radical honesty.

You guys have experience here that I'm don't so I'm not challenging you, just curious.

You've got to draw a big bold sharp distinction between complaints and arguing. Complaints have to be absolutely 100% free of demands, disrespect, or anger.

"It bothers me when you X. I'm not demanding that you stop X, I'm not saying that you are a bad person for doing X, and I'm going to avoid punishing you for doing X, at all costs. But I can't put up with X because it hurts so bad."

"I would like it if you would do Y. In fact, I really need some form of Y in order to be happy in our marriage. I'm not demanding that you do Y, I'm not saying that you should have known Y was necessary or that you are a bad person for not doing Y, and at all costs I'm going to avoid punishing you for not doing Y (even if I have to live without Y for awhile to make sure you are not punished). But I am really unhappy in our marriage because of the lack of Y and I need to find out what we could do to make it possible for you to meet my need for Y in a way that you really, really enjoy."

I'd encourage husbands to never withdraw if they can help it. And he absolutely should not escalate the situation. Most of us have the bad idea that the problem in our marriage is our wife's complaints and that if she'd just stop complaining everything would be fine. If you're wired very emotionally, like me, your instinct will be to stop the complaining at all costs, which would be absolutely wrong.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Thank you, Markos for all this. It's helping me to process things. And thank you, Prisca, too. If my angry outbursts killed her love for me, then it's possible that she did fall out of love with me and that she's not rewriting history. Although she hasn't given me anything specific, she has said she was unhappy for 13 years, and that was when I had my first angry outburst. Perhaps I will go with that explanation and wish her well.


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Originally Posted by nmwb77
See that's where I get hopeless again. If my angry outbursts were unforgivable, then I should wish her well and hope she finds happiness. I'm committed to avoiding them in the future, but if the ones in the past justify her leaving me, then what am I doing hoping she comes back?
That is a completely illogical argument. It's difficult to know where to start with it.

That your angry outbursts were unforgivable has nothing to do with wishing her well and hoping she finds happiness.

Your hoping she comes back (which you are doing now), has nothing to do with the merits of her feelings, and by the way, you are still judging her reactions to your outbursts, and seeing her reactions as undeserved.

You are still implying that what you did was not that bad, that the outbursts were rare, that they could have been much worse and more frequent, and that other men behave much worse and do not lose their wives. You haven't said that, but you've implied it. The thing is, her reaction is her reaction. Whether to that, or to your driving (which probably put you in a near constant state of anger in her eyes, as well as making you look a donkey and stupid and childish and NOT admirable), or whether to other aspects of your behaviour that we haven't discussed on this thread, her reaction is what it is. The proof of the pudding of how serious all these things were to her is that she has left you. You are in no position to try and discuss whether she had any right to leave. She left. If you want her back, you are going to have to accept that how you behaved was wrong for your wife and you will have to change.

You are hoping she comes back because, at the moment, and for the near future, your love bank balance is high enough for you to still be in love with her (as you said). And when we are in love with someone, we want to be with them. There is no "what am I doing?" about that: it simply is.


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