I've been feeling very down lately. I don't know if any of the FWWs on here actually left their husbands with the intention of being with the AP, but my WW has done exactly that. Our divorce will be final soon. I find myself thinking about what if she were to come back, how could I ever believe that she would not leave me again? My WW never complained to me about anything. That's not an exaggeration. It's not that I just ignored her complaints. She really did not complain (even now she cannot or will not point to anything specific). So I was completely blindsided. Right up until the end she was telling me she loved me (apparently in her mind it was a sibling-like love). So how could I possibly know in the future whether she was faking it or not?

I know this is a hypothetical because there's no guarantee and currently no indication that she would ever come back, but if I could work this out in my mind it would be easier to move on without her. I'm still in love with her, and I don't want to live my life without her, but living my life with her would be just as miserable if I could never believe she was in love with me, too.

The sibling-love thing is an obvious re-write of history. It's another version of ILYBNILWY which simply means there is a new point of reference. An affair is like candy - so much sweeter and more addictive than natural food.

She loved you and as long as you exclude OS friends from your recovery there will be no new point of reference to ruin things.

Thanks, indiegirl. I like the candy analogy.

That sounds very much like Prisca. Somewhere in 2010 she has a post about how she felt that her Giver nearly ruined our marriage. She nearly never complained (and when she did complain I didn't address the problems or didn't address them in a timely way). She basically felt that she shouldn't complain.

The great thing about the Marriage Builders program is it is like a manual for clueless husbands like me to tell us what our wives need even if our wives don't tell us or can't tell us. Your wife needs 15-30 ours of your undivided attention each week. You probably don't need anywhere near this much time, but she does. That time needs to be spent meeting the four intimate emotional needs: recreational companionship, conversation (featuring the four friends of good conversation), affection, and sexual fulfillment. Regardless of what the husband and the wife rate as their "highest" needs.

And the marriage needs to be free of Love Busters. No demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts.

I CAN PROMISE YOU THAT NEARLY EVERY SINGLE HUSBAND HERE IS UTTERLY BLIND AND CLUELESS WHEN IT COMES TO RECOGNIZING THEIR OWN DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENTS. Even today after years of effort I still sometimes say something that Prisca finds disrespectful, with no clue in advance that she is going to feel that way. I keep honing my skills. You have got to be super, super good at recognizing and eliminating disrespectful judgments if you want to be a good husband for most women. Most women I'm aware of will not nicely tell you that you have been disrespectful and help you understand; they will just curl up and withdraw from you. So you've got to figure this out with almost no help from your wife.

And of course no dishonesty; total radical honesty; no independent behavior; perfect adherence to the policy of joint agreement.

Beyond that, full integration into each other's lives; she is fully invited into every "room" in your life.

Almost every woman will be happy if she has all of the above, and unhappy if she does not. Many women will not tell you if you are missing the mark on some of this, though, so you need to get help honing your skills (never miss a Marriage Builders Radio, and practice helping other husbands learn to not be disrespectful and to empathize with their wives), and you need to solicit regular feedback from your wife (even if she doesn't often take you up on the opportunity).

My guess is that like most husbands here you were missing the mark on some of the above, even if you think you were doing great. Most husbands who come are are missing the mark, and most get pissed off and/or ignore us when we tell them, but giving heed to this and tuning up "husband" performance is one of the main keys most guys who come here need. Don't be satisfied with peacefully coexisting; that is enough for most guys, but not enough for most women.

All of that said, we all know that you can be doing everything absolutely perfect and your spouse can still have an affair if they do not keep good boundaries. So you want to be snooping at times until snooping feels boring. And you want to be the kind of person who, if your wife enjoys a friendship with another man, would without hesitation declare it to the world on a billboard.

If you remarry in the future, it would be good to discuss all of this ahead of time. A woman who is in love will usually feel great about most or all of the above.

Marriages that are completely happy can be blindsided by an affair. Her boundaries were poor around men, and she let one of them meet her emotional needs, and THAT is why she had an affair.

Happy Marriage + Good Boundaries = No Affair
Happy Marriage + Bad Boundaries = Affair
UNhappy Marriage + Good Boundaries = No Affair
UNhappy Marriage + Bad Boundaries = Affair

If she were to ever come back, the two of you would need to set up Extraordinary Precautions, which would make your boundaries very firm.

She wrote those exact words to me recently.


I know I was missing the mark. I hope that I didn't come across as implying that I was perfect. Far from it. I know I was way off mark on many things, especially undivided attention. I also had angry outbursts every now and then. I didn't think it was a problem since it was rare. I realize now I should have stopped after the first time. Apologies after the fact aren't enough.

Thank you, markos, for your thoughtful response. If she were to come back, then I'd want her to get on board with MB. It's encouraging to know that people in a similar situation have made it work.

Thank you, Prisca. I thought we had a happy marriage. All the rewriting of history has made me question everything, though.

Yes, I would definitely require the extraordinary precautions. Lately I've been wondering if even those would be enough, hence my question today.

I think it's extremely common.

At first glance, Marriage Builders seems to reveal a perfect world where a wife will spell out for you in exact detail exactly what to do to keep her 100% head over heels in love with you. But there are a million reasons that most wives don't do that at 100% and many are closer to 0%. Among other things, many wives get annoyed if they have to KEEP spelling it out. Eventually the clueless husband needs to become a great husband. If he'll follow this plan, he will be.

When Prisca wasn't interested in giving me enough feedback, Steve Harley explained to me that the forms and paperwork of Marriage Builders were basically a shortcut to getting my wife to fall in love with me. It's a "nice to have." In my case, most of the time I did not get that, and Steve said I had to take the longer route of trial and error. I would hasten to add that that trial and error needs to happen within the framework of following the rest of Marriage Builders, as I described above: POUA, PORH, POJA, and eliminate the three abusive love busters.


No, not at all! I just think it's important to emphasize, because one of the most important things we do here is help husbands realize how much more they can do.

As you are seeing right now, there is really a lot of optimism and hope that can come from realizing how much more you can do. The perfect guys who fight with us and leave end up hopeless.


I would say if you ever have an angry outburst again, get yourself a GSR meter.

And I'm assuming you're listening to the Marriage Builders Radio program DAILY to help reinforce these beliefs in you. Otherwise you are going to end up thinking an occasional angry outburst is normal, or something like that, and sabotage your chances at happiness.


One other thing you should know: when the reluctant spouse is the wife, and the husband is enthusiastic about MB, Dr. Harley is optimistic.

Markos' angry outbursts destroyed any love I felt for him. You cannot expect to have a good marriage where angry outbursts occur.

Yes, I know that now. But seriously, it was about three times in 16 years. It will NEVER happen again, though, if I get another shot at it. I honestly had no clue it was a lovebuster. It was normal in my family.

Another thing she did not like was my aggressive driving (honking the horn, tailgating people that pull out in front of me). I have completely stopped that. I know I am capable of controlling my anger. I guess I just needed the proper motivation. Aggressive driving is ridiculous when you stop to think about it. I'm embarrassed that I ever did things like that. Again, that was one of the things that was normal in my family, so I didn't think it was that bad until I really stopped and thought about it.


That is nice to hear. I'm more than enthusiastic, but my WW has checked out and has given me absolutely no indication of having second thoughts. Hopefully she will have them someday.

"But seriously, I only dropped 3 nuclear bombs on my wife in 16 years."

Start watching for phrases like "But seriously." Those words tend to minimize, which is a disrespectful judgement.

Duly noted. But was that enough to kill her love for me? I don't mean to minimize, and if those outbursts were what caused her to fall out of love with me, then it's a very serious issue, indeed. In any case, I vow never to do it again.

It's a difficult hurdle to really get to the the deep set belief that angry outbursts need to be eliminated in marriage and should not be tolerated in marriage. When you get to the point where you would tell any woman including your wife that if her husband reserves the right to have an angry outburst once in awhile, she should separate from him, then you are there.

So what about cases I hear on the radio and read about on the forum where the wife is very argumentative and the husband either withdraws or escalates the situation?

I really appreciate the advice given in this thread as I feel like it describes the relationship dynamic my wife and I had as well. I just wonder how many women really think it's better to bottle things up. Sort of contradicts the policy of radical honesty.

You guys have experience here that I'm don't so I'm not challenging you, just curious.

See that's where I get hopeless again. If my angry outbursts were unforgivable, then I should wish her well and hope she finds happiness. I'm committed to avoiding them in the future, but if the ones in the past justify her leaving me, then what am I doing hoping she comes back?

The thing about forgiveness is that it's not an entitlement program.

Waywards are not entitled to forgiveness for infidelity.

And abusers are not entitled to forgiveness for angry outbursts.

There are reasons for both, but no excuses.

Now, the victims of infidelity and of abuse often conclude that it is in their own best interest to reconcile, and they are usually right if the offender eliminates their behavior.

Marriage is not a suicide pact where the spouses promise each other unconditional love and a commitment to stay legally married for life regardless of what the other does. I would never judge someone for ending their marriage over infidelity, even if the wayward has completely eliminated everything that could possibly lead to infidelity and is making just compensation. And I would never judge someone for ending their marriage over their spouse's angry outbursts. Nobody got married with a commitment to overlook such behavior, and they are well within their rights to refuse to tolerate it.

That is not a belief most of us came to Marriage Builders with, but it's a belief I have definitely adopted, at a deep level.

Of course, by the exact same token, while I would never judge someone for ending their marriage over infidelity or abuse (or in fact a whole host of other things) - I absolutely WOULD fault them for responding to any of those issues with infidelity or abuse. It is one thing to say I can't live with my spouse's angry outbursts and I'm ending the marriage - it is another thing entirely to punish my spouse in the most horrendous way possible, by keeping him married to me and having an affair. That is beyond inexcusable. I have seen affairs that were punished by affairs. I have seen affairs that were punished by abuse. I have seen abuse that was punished by affairs.

None of this is justifiable. I don't believe that punishment is compatible at any level with the relationship of extraordinary care that marriage is.

You've got to draw a big bold sharp distinction between complaints and arguing. Complaints have to be absolutely 100% free of demands, disrespect, or anger.

"It bothers me when you X. I'm not demanding that you stop X, I'm not saying that you are a bad person for doing X, and I'm going to avoid punishing you for doing X, at all costs. But I can't put up with X because it hurts so bad."

"I would like it if you would do Y. In fact, I really need some form of Y in order to be happy in our marriage. I'm not demanding that you do Y, I'm not saying that you should have known Y was necessary or that you are a bad person for not doing Y, and at all costs I'm going to avoid punishing you for not doing Y (even if I have to live without Y for awhile to make sure you are not punished). But I am really unhappy in our marriage because of the lack of Y and I need to find out what we could do to make it possible for you to meet my need for Y in a way that you really, really enjoy."

I'd encourage husbands to never withdraw if they can help it. And he absolutely should not escalate the situation. Most of us have the bad idea that the problem in our marriage is our wife's complaints and that if she'd just stop complaining everything would be fine. If you're wired very emotionally, like me, your instinct will be to stop the complaining at all costs, which would be absolutely wrong.

Thank you, Markos for all this. It's helping me to process things. And thank you, Prisca, too. If my angry outbursts killed her love for me, then it's possible that she did fall out of love with me and that she's not rewriting history. Although she hasn't given me anything specific, she has said she was unhappy for 13 years, and that was when I had my first angry outburst. Perhaps I will go with that explanation and wish her well.

That is a completely illogical argument. It's difficult to know where to start with it.

That your angry outbursts were unforgivable has nothing to do with wishing her well and hoping she finds happiness.

Your hoping she comes back (which you are doing now), has nothing to do with the merits of her feelings, and by the way, you are still judging her reactions to your outbursts, and seeing her reactions as undeserved.

You are still implying that what you did was not that bad, that the outbursts were rare, that they could have been much worse and more frequent, and that other men behave much worse and do not lose their wives. You haven't said that, but you've implied it. The thing is, her reaction is her reaction. Whether to that, or to your driving (which probably put you in a near constant state of anger in her eyes, as well as making you look a donkey and stupid and childish and NOT admirable), or whether to other aspects of your behaviour that we haven't discussed on this thread, her reaction is what it is. The proof of the pudding of how serious all these things were to her is that she has left you. You are in no position to try and discuss whether she had any right to leave. She left. If you want her back, you are going to have to accept that how you behaved was wrong for your wife and you will have to change.

You are hoping she comes back because, at the moment, and for the near future, your love bank balance is high enough for you to still be in love with her (as you said). And when we are in love with someone, we want to be with them. There is no "what am I doing?" about that: it simply is.

Wishing her well has nothing to do with still loving her and wanting her back. I can't understand why you are tying the two things together.

Do you think you are in a position to simply decide not to love her, and not to want her back?

I think in these sentences SugarCane is giving you a lot of great insight into how it comes across when we minimize our Love Busters.

I am not going to crawl across broken glass and grovel about my past Love Busters. But I am also not going to ever speak about them as if they were justified, or not that bad. I imagine I would compare favorably to a lot of men if you compared our history of angry outbursts. But that would be irrelevant - I missed the mark. The mark is an emotional and somewhat irrational target, but to have a good marriage a husband needs to study it, understand it well, and become an expert marksman.

Thank you, SugarCane. Yes, I accept that how I behaved was wrong not just for my wife but period. I'm committed to avoiding angry outbursts in the future. I mention that they were rare because I am normally a very laid back person. It will not be hard for me to eliminate them. I have eliminated the aggressive driving. I am confident of that. All that took was a change in outlook. I don't even get angry when I drive anymore. Edit to add: I am confident, because I began working on this nine months ago, and I have remained calm while driving ever since.

I need some kind of explanation for why she left. This is the best I have come across. She hasn't told me anything specific, so I have to figure it out on my own.

If she did fall out of love with me, then I can't expect that she will change her mind after the affair ends. Although I would like a second chance, if she truly was not in love with me, then for my own sake it's best not to hold out hope of that happening.

If you remember Dr. Harley's work with Jon and Sue in SAA, Sue came back to John after the affair ended because it seemed to be the best option to her. She was not in love with him.

No, my angry outbursts were not justified. I don't think that for a second. I also don't mean to minimize them. It's just that it never occurred to me that they could be what caused my wife to fall out of love with me.

But Sue was in counseling with Dr. Harley.

I wish that I could do that.

She left because she is in love with somebody else.
She COULD fall in love with you again. Have you read how the lovebank works?
Sue did not fall in love with Jon just because she was in counseling with Dr. Harley. Dr. Harley did not fill her lovebank, Jon did. Countless BH have caused their WW to fall back in love with them -- markos did it for me almost against my will.

The problem you're going to face is that she's gone. It is far, far easier to do with a WW who still lives at home and with whom you have children.

Hope this doesn't stir the pot, but when I look at the buyer's concept for marriage and threads like this:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2634091#Post2634091

I come away feeling like wives who bottle it up are following a renter attitude.

You can't make it work if she's not willing to be honest and tell you where you're making mistakes, and when she's at the same time willing to have poor boundaries around men. You can't have a successful marriage that way. Dr. Harley told me this verbatim on the phone before my show, it's the main argument he had for me looking at divorce as the best option in my situation. He did not think my wife would ever become a buyer or agree to EPs, and thought repeat affairs were likely if we ever got back together.

Something to think about. The "why" of why she cheated is probably something you can't know nmwb77. Only she will ever know that unless she tells you. You'll go nuts trying to figure it out and it's a DJ to try and mind read her (though I'm tempted by the same temptation to try!)

You can only focus on you. And part of focusing on you (I feel) is doing a better job shopping next time. I feel the same way about my own situation. The LBs you know about and can work on are blessings because they are opportunities to get better. All of the rest of it is just speculation.

That's funny.
Yes, it's a huge problem.

You're right. Being blindsided is extremely traumatic, though. My rational mind needs an explanation.

And yes, I'm glad I found MB. I know that I'm already a better person for it. I feel better equipped for the next time, whether it's with my STBXW or with someone else.

I might have to add this to my signature!!

Take the #not# out and that pretty much sums up what I was taught about marriage. Glad to have something different to pass on to my kids!

This whole discussion has been very helpful!

I think this is what many in the US are taught about marriage, especially inside the Church. A lot of focus on the boundaries of marriage without much focus on the responsibilities of marriage.

Ax, your wife is not the typical wife, and your situation is not the typical situation.

In the typical marriage that comes to this board, where the husband is willing to do MB but the wife is not, he can turn the marriage around and win her back without much help from her.

Dr. Harley doesn't tell many men that they are better off getting a divorce. Your case is different.

I'm sorry, nmwb77, this is the first time I've looked at the board all day. I'm so glad to see that you've gotten excellent advice from Markos, Prisca and Sugarcane. You couldn't have been in more capable hands.

There is something I wanted to address...


Unless your WW was one of those folks that actually went out looking for someone to have an affair with, then you DO know why she cheated. It's the same reason every WS who "stumbles" [for lack of a better word] into an affair cheats. It's because they allowed someone other than their spouse to meet their emotional needs. It really is that simple.

Affairs don't happen BECAUSE of unmet emotional needs or even because of lovebusters. Unmet emotional needs and lovebusters can make someone vulnerable to having an affair, but they will only have an affair if they are not practicing extraordinary precautions to prevent someone other than their spouse to meet their emotional needs.

Mr. W could stop meeting my emotional needs and become a lovebusting fool, and I still would not have another affair, because now I KNOW how to keep myself and everyone around me safe -- I practice extraordinary precautions and will for the rest of my life. By the same token, Mr. W could be meeting every single one of my emotional needs and committing no lovebusters, and if I put myself in a position to do so, (by not practicing extraordinary precautions), I would have another affair. The ONLY thing that protects any of us from having affairs (other than sheer luck) is taking extraordinary precautions to prevent someone other than our spouse from meeting our emotional needs. Until a WS really gets that, and puts it into practice, they are not safe to be married to.

Mrs. W

Thank you, MrsW. You're right. Normally I'm not like this. Honest. I am usually a rational thinker, and things don't confuse me like this. With this affair, though, I forget the things I learn and jump to wrong conclusions as SugarCane rightly pointed out above. My work is also suffering because I forget to do things.

I've learned from MB that affairs happen because of poor boundaries. However, my WW insists that her leaving had nothing to do with the affair. I know she's lying, but I can't seem to get that out of my head. Sometimes I even wonder if I'm crazy and there actually isn't an affair, even though she admitted it to me and I have the evidence from her phone.

Some quotes I just shared about anger on another thread. Markos suggested I post it here, just to show the seriousness of even one angry outburst:

Here

Here

Here

Here

Thank you, Prisca. That is very kind of you.

No more angry outbursts from me. I'll prove it if I ever get the chance.

Gaslighting.

I know you know that, just chiming in to encourage you. My WW and most other waywards say the same thing. I get frustrated by it too.

It's amazing what gaslighting does to the brain. I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, but I had the hardest time convincing myself that what I was seeing with my own two eyes was real.

Emotion is more powerful than reason. You're a smart guy, you're just heartbroken.

Whenever there is a conflict between your heart and mind, listen to your mind.

I actually had to take my evidence to a friend and have her look through it. My brother didn't see any of my evidence, but he put two and two together and told me it was an affair. I had the evidence but still couldn't believe it. It wasn't until my friend assured me that the evidence was clear that I actually believed it.

I would agree. Dr. Harley didn't tell me that I was better off getting a divorce directly, but strongly implied it. But I am a woman and Dr. Harley knows that if a man is having an affair and won't do much to end it or put into plane EPs, life for a woman will be hellish. And, of course, at some point she'll lose interest and just leave anyway (which is what is happening to me now). Men it seems have a much better chance at winning back their wives overall. Women really can't do that (not should they, quite frankly). So, it's not a great position to be a betrayed wife.

Really? Whenever I see a gallant soul Plan Aing a WW I thank goodness I'm Martha and not Arthur.

I just meant for women who wanted to save their marriage. I didn't have a bad marriage and it was sudden for me too. Like nmwb, there were definitely LBs I am working on eliminating though, mostly anger and disrespect. They weren't a daily thing either, but I can see how even occasionally it does a number on a marriage.

I'm losing interest, but it is still difficult for me, particularly because I have a young kid. I'd really like him to fight for us, but it no longer makes me feel unlovable that he doesn't. It just indicates to me that he doesn't care.

I actually can't imagine what it's like to have a child in the mix. The cuddles must be nice though.

An advise guiven to me was retell that same story as if it where not you, but someone else"... When you do, you'll be able to see things you can't see when it is you. I use this now. it is a tool I use because I tend to be guided by emotions more than by my mind. It works.

I consider us blessed that markos and mine positions were not reversed. We probably would've divorced 4 years ago.

Kind of late replying, but I really must comment on this one. I never complained to my husband pre-affair either, and he did extremely hurtful moves on me, and I even hid myself in the bathroom many times to cry and not told him. I dont think she she was faking it before when she said she loved you, she did, but angry outburst also had its part. I dont know if this applies to you but before my affair I did both... Love my husband and simultaneously resent him. Only that when OM appeared, I wanted to logically explain to me why it was okay, and therefore eliminated our good times from my memory, and what was left was all the chaos of our marriage... Which made me walk out back then.

Don't take for reals anything she is saying now, while in the fog. It's not true. You may have had angry outburst which are bad, and probably affected her, but I believe to justify her actions, she has erased the good memories.

Thank you so much, FSadSoul. Sometimes I let the situation get the better of me. I know her statements are clouded by her affair. I know she loved me. She had her affair because she let someone else meet her emotional needs. There is nothing I can do about that now. I'll see what happens after the divorce. I'll give it six months, then reevaluate and possibly give it another six months. That would be the full two years, which is how long 95-98% of affairs last. Dr. Harley advised me to wait a year after the divorce. That's what I plan to do. I'm not going to let my mind wander anymore. I will work on improving myself, and I'll be a better partner when she ends her affair or I move on with someone new.

THAT'S the thinking that will get you through.

I'm a work in progress.

Yes. It's a hard thing and it stinks, but I have accepted there is little I can do about. The only thing that is funny (not haha funny, of course) is that I don't think he'll ever be truly done with me. He won't file for divorce. I'll be the one to do it. He also is always trying to initiate contact. I am sure that will lessen, but it'll be there. I don't see him ever really letting go completely. His dad did the same thing with his mom. Even after 20 years he'd try to initiate contact, etc. my WHs stepdad occasionally had to run him off.

Hmmm, that might explain his comment about how you treat him like he's a leaper or whatever it was he said. Did he have a relationship with his father?

Yes. It was a relationship of unconditional love on his part and basically no care on his dad's part. My WH was always giving him money, for example. My WH loved his dad and his dad didn't do almost anything for his kids. He never paid child support, rarely saw them growing up. My brother in law almost didn't come to the funeral when he died. My WH on the other hand was really broken up about it and got really mad that his mother didn't want to go to the funeral.

The cuddles are the best. I told her the other day that I was going to "cuddle her with the fury of a thousand snuggles!!" She had no idea what that meant but thought it was hilarious. Totally off topic, but she is the light of my life.