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You do not understand Plan A, and you haven't been in Plan A all this time.

Of course your wife doesn't want to be loved by you. She's a WW. That's typical. You're not the first BH who has a reluctant WW.

Plan A is designed to show her what she COULD have with you. It's designed to pursue her and woo her. It's designed to make you look like a more desirable man than the OM. You haven't been doing that.


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EddieHead, I am not an ideal person to give you suggestions, but I had some questions, and maybe some comments.

You mention you were working on PLAN A for the first few months, but then from your posts, I get the idea you remained in LIMBO, because of your wife's requests. But in essence, there is part of you that wants PLAN A.

1) Which of your wife's requests are making PLAN A difficult?

2) What personal approaches are you taking yourself to stay mentally strong?

Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but PLAN A's purpose if for her to see you in your maximum potential. Maybe mentally pretend you are doing it for the person you remember she was,and try not to think of who she is now for now. Maybe, one day as she gets home she finds lots of balloons in the house... balloons just make people happy, most at least. My BH hated me, literally, after he knew I had cheated, and balloons were the only thing that made him smile and actually talk nice to me for a little while, so I probably overused that technique, and it worked each time. Then, maybe you can buy flowers and just lay it on her side of the bed, without saying anything, and hide a nice letter in her purse about a good memory of when you just met, or get off work early and set candles in the house, and try to make a list of things, without feeling them, without thinking, just reminding yourself it is not for the outer WW, but actually for that inner person you once met. Maybe, try to get something planned ahead for each day that is really out of the ordinary, without having to feel it much, until you can make up your mind if you want to do PLAN A or PLAN B.

And also, is there anything you can do to trigger her to re-think about when you just met? Was there a song, a poem, a place, something that can trigger her to the past of when you both met, which you can find elements to add during your PLAN A?


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Originally Posted by Prisca
You do not understand Plan A, and you haven't been in Plan A all this time.

Of course your wife doesn't want to be loved by you. She's a WW. That's typical. You're not the first BH who has a reluctant WW.

Plan A is designed to show her what she COULD have with you. It's designed to pursue her and woo her. It's designed to make you look like a more desirable man than the OM. You haven't been doing that.



Then what specifically is Plan A? My understanding is that is is cultivating 15-20 hours per week of undivided attention time outside the home, on actual dates one on one with my spouse. Not shopping, not in the home, not with my daughter or with friends. She does not want to spend that much time alone with me away from the home. She told me to back off when I tried. She does not want to spend that much of her free time away from our daughter. I spent two months investigating and fighting off OM and trying to take her out places she wanted to go and do things she wanted to do. Most times, she would reclutantly agree or flat out say she wasn't interested. When we did go out, getting her to talk to me about anything pleasant was very difficult, even though I focused on topics she would like to discuss. I left her tokens of my appreciation (flowers, cards, etc.). I complimented her as a beautiful and sexy woman and a strong loving mother all the time. I hugged her, kissed her and told her I loved her every day, even though none of that was returned. I addressed every single one of her requests for change. I discussed pleasant plans for the future. Vacations, our daughter, improvements to our home.

I did that until I caught her meeting him again a few weeks ago. That event made me stop and rethink whether or not I wanted to stay married to her.

Tell me, please What am I missing on Plan A, because I thought I was doing it?

EH

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You are confusing Plan A with Recovery. What you have described is Recovery, and you likely will not be there for quite some time.

I shudder to think of where we would be if markos backed off every time I told him to. I told him that a LOT, and in as nasty a way I could to get him to leave me alone. He did not back off, which was very irritating to me, but it saved our marriage.

Plan A is meeting her emotional needs without ANY lovebusters on your part. It is actively pursuing her. She WILL brush you off, and she may even lovebust you in return, but you do not back off from meeting her emotional needs. Show her what you can do for her.

Invite her on a date. She will brush you off. So invite her tomorrow.
Write her love notes. She will just throw them away. So write her more tomorrow.
Kiss her hand. She will glare at you. Kiss her again tomorrow.

Those are just suggestions ... the real point is to NOT BACK OFF. Keep doing the things you know she used to like. She will not respond for awhile, but chances are she will a few months down the road.

Markos did a Plan A, and he is asking you some very pertinent questions. I would listen to him and answer his questions if I were you.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
You are confusing Plan A with Recovery. What you have described is Recovery, and you likely will not be there for quite some time.


Well that makes sense now, and explains my frustration. I had been told on this thread early on that 15-20 hrs of UA time should be my focus, and had assumed that was effectively plan A.

I have also read Surviving an Affair, but still I confused Plan A with recovery. I will read it again.

This seems a bit more realistic, though not necessarily any easier, but that's OK. At least I won't feel like I'm failing if I don't meet some minimum hourly attention requirement every week.

Also, it's a bit of a different approach, which will be refreshing to me. It also means that our situation may actually be improving at a normal pace. We do go out alone about once a week, and we do spend plenty of pleasant time together at home and with our daughter. Now that I don't feel like only one-on-one UA time counts towards recovery, I actually feel like I have already and can make appreciable progress moveing forward.

Thank you Prisca, for clarifying. I should have asked sooner. While my efforts to this point have had some value, I probably could have saved myself considerable grief and frustration had I been clear on what exactly I was supposed to be doing, and what my expectations should be.

EH




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You wouldn't be in Plan A if you had a receptive wife. Plan A is for the snarling, demonic phase.

If you're offering her good dates, affection, if you're available for conversation, if you're always casting a kindly, husbandly 'how can I help?' demeanour, then that's a successful Plan A.

No matter how many times she says no, she can't deny what's on offer.

That's a good Plan A. Pitching a good offer - and a good salesman knows how to successfully accept someone's right to say no and yet sticks around to be of help if possible.




What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Plan A also means keeping important problems on the front burner, like the fact that you can't recover if you don't move.

So, about once a week (ask Dr. Harley how often), mention to your wife that you can't recover if the two of you don't move away.

Eddie, you haven't replied to my questions - have you read my posts?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by markos
Eddie, you haven't replied to my questions - have you read my posts?


I have read them.

Originally Posted by markos
Eddie, did you listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show for Wednesday?

I did not. Most days I have to listen when away from the computer. I am having trouble with the iphone app. It's only allowing me to access one show per day and that show is several months old. Any thoughts on that?

Originally Posted by markos
EddieHead, have you contacted Dr. Harley?

No, but I intend to. What is the best way to do so? Should I send an email, and if so, to what address? Is there a phone number to call? The coaching center web page lists Steven Harley, not Dr. Willard Harley, so I wasn't sure if that was the appropriate starting point.

Originally Posted by markos
Eddie, if you customize the plans yourself I can pretty much guarantee you are going to lose your marriage.

Why don't you talk to Dr. Harley and find out if this is a good idea?

I will ask him, but I am going to work Plan A while I am deciding. It makes the most sense to do so. It is difficult to do since I am struggling to decide what path I want to choose, but I'll admit we are both at least marginally happier when I am trying to meet her needs, and that is better than nothing.

WW has also done a few things to convince me to keep trying. She has suggested a friendly competition It involves picking the winners and watching the remaining college basketball tournament games together, something she enjoys and knows I love. The loser of the competition has to plan a date night. Challenge accepted smile.

She also wants to have a lunch date tomorrow afternoon without the baby. All I had to do was find the babysitter. My sister couldn't have been happier to oblige and spend some one-on-one time with her niece.

These efforts by WW caught me by surprise, pleasantly of course. It meant a lot that she came to me with these ideas. It showed real thoughtfulness and effort, and a desire to meet some of my emotional needs.

It would be foolish to not recommit to Plan A, especially now that I know I had Plan A confused with recovery all this time.

WW and I had a discussion late last night and the topic of trust came up. She still does not trust me on a number of issues, not the least of which our financial situation. I said total transparency is something we absolutely need, and I have never been opposed to it. I suggested we do some research on how couples in our situation re-establish trust and build an environment of complete honesty. She agreed we should do that. I suggested some of the concepts outlined in Surviving an Affair, but I didn't push it because it was late at night. I plan to ask her to read Surviving an Affair with me this weekend, since I am going to re-read it anyway. I'm hopeful she will be receptive this time, because it contains solutions to many of her concerns. If she is reluctant, then at least she has agreed to sit down and work through an agreement whereby I can introduce some of those concepts.

I asked her what else I can do or change to begin to bring us closer together. She indicated that I need to let go of my anger in order for us to move on. She can sense it, even when I'm trying to suppress it, and it makes her reluctant to want to try to rebuild. I understood and agree 100%. I suggested again my desire to move would help with that. I said that our home is not only too close to OM, but contains many triggers that cause me pain and make it difficult to let go of that anger, resentment and sadness. She is still resisting and doesn't feel it's critical to our recovery. I will continue to bring it up at regular intervals and ask Dr. Harley for advice on that topic. In the meantime, she has agreed that it would be wise for us to replace a few things that I no longer want in the home which are particularly bothersome to me. Our bed and a couch on which I am aware that they were intimate will be gotten rid of. It's not a move, but it's a start.

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Eddie, the iPhone app will allow access to only the current show each day. The current show yesterday was a repeat.

Once today's show starts (in about 30 minutes from now) you should have access to a new show.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Contact Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce on the radio show, at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I see, so there isn't necessarily a new show each day. That's where I'm getting confused. For example, when I go the app right now it says "Date of current program: Monday Feb. 16, 2015"

So even though it aired yesterday, it didn't originally air yesterday.

Got it.




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Originally Posted by markos
Eddie, the iPhone app will allow access to only the current show each day. The current show yesterday was a repeat.

Once today's show starts (in about 30 minutes from now) you should have access to a new show.
The daily radio show is live at noon Central time on weekdays. After the live program ends at 1:00 pm, the program data is updated on the server. If there was a "Best Of" repeat rather than a new live program, then the metadata from the server reflects that fact. Your app retrieves the currently-available radio program from the server when you press "Play". So long as you continue to listening to that program, you will not update automatically. You have to hit "Stop" to end the current session, and then "Play" to load the new one. This is actually a feature that allows you to finish the show you were already listening to rather than interrupting by pushing a new show before you are finished with the old one.



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I spoke with Dr. Harley.

He told me withdrawal will likely last six months, and I'm only about a month in, so that's another five at least. He didn't really address the need to relocate, and just told me to stick with Plan A to the best of my ability.

As far as dealing with my frustration, resentment and need for affection, his only advice was to lower my expectations.

So, really nothing surprising. The message was "You're on your own to fix this for the foreseeable future, so just suck it up and make her happy while she continues to treat you as she did while she was having an affair".

Doesn't sound very appealing, but he's the expert, so I guess that's what I have to do.

We'll see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by EddieHead
I spoke with Dr. Harley.

He told me withdrawal will likely last six months, and I'm only about a month in, so that's another five at least. He didn't really address the need to relocate, and just told me to stick with Plan A to the best of my ability.

As far as dealing with my frustration, resentment and need for affection, his only advice was to lower my expectations.

So, really nothing surprising. The message was "You're on your own to fix this for the foreseeable future, so just suck it up and make her happy while she continues to treat you as she did while she was having an affair".

Doesn't sound very appealing, but he's the expert, so I guess that's what I have to do.

We'll see how it goes.

EddieHead

Sucks to be you, now.

Six months from now I hope you will be singing a new tune. You are doing every thing to make the odds in your favor.

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Originally Posted by EddieHead
I spoke with Dr. Harley.

He told me withdrawal will likely last six months, and I'm only about a month in, so that's another five at least. He didn't really address the need to relocate, and just told me to stick with Plan A to the best of my ability.

As far as dealing with my frustration, resentment and need for affection, his only advice was to lower my expectations.

So, really nothing surprising. The message was "You're on your own to fix this for the foreseeable future, so just suck it up and make her happy while she continues to treat you as she did while she was having an affair".

Doesn't sound very appealing, but he's the expert, so I guess that's what I have to do.

We'll see how it goes.

EddieHead
Were you on the radio show? If so, when?


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Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Yes, Monday 4/6/15.

I didn't really get an opportunity to say much on air. I sort of expected that. Most of the discussion was off air, beforehand.

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Eddie,

I just read your story, and I am impressed by your decisiveness and assertiveness in fighting this battle. So far you have taken the difficult steps necessary to combat the evils of infidelity. Plan A is only for the stout-hearted, but it is the best formula for success. In fact, everyone who does a strong Plan A wins the race. That doesn't mean they recover their marriage at all times, but it does mean that they gave their marriage their very best, and that is what is most important in the final analysis.

As Axe and others here have shared with you, you need to set a time limit on Plan A. Six months is about right in your situation. This will help you to focus like a laser and give it your very best. Even if you feel like you'd rather be divorced at this moment, giving your marriage your best shot will pay off. I guarantee it.

Also, your wife must write a no contact letter to her AP. I'd let internal affairs know that they met again, too. Recovery can't begin until the affair is dead as a doornail, and the no contact letter is the place to start.

Know that others who are here have experienced the overwhelming pain, anxiety, anger, and distress that you are currently going through. We have the battle scars, so our advice comes from not only knowledge of Dr. Harely's program, but our own experience carrying out his plan. All your hurts and your starving for love and affection will not last forever. You have to endure the process and give it time. Self-sacrifice is the name of the game for next 5 months. By that I mean give without receiving. As Dr. Harley said, make love bank deposits without expectation of reciprocation. ***EDIT***

Find out what her emotional needs are and meet them without being clingy or acting desperate. Take her to a date to Starbucks and see if she's willing to fill out Dr. Harley's emotional needs questionnaire. Here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.html. Once that has been taken, start meeting her needs. You can't assume you know her needs. The questionnaire results may surprise you.

Also, do a get-away. Take the longest possible vacation you can alone with your wife. My wife and did a cruise and it was perfect because we didn't have to do any work. Dining and entertainment on a cruise are part of the package, and we had a room with a view. It was romantic and fun. We bonded again. I know that money is tight, but recovering your marriage will be the best financial investment you can make. So make it happen.

Try not to give into hopelessness. When I was in your position, I thought I had no chance of recovering my marriage. My wife declared her love for me dead forever. There was not even an ember left burning in her heart. Or so I thought. But thanks to Plan A, which took 14 long and hard months, we recovered our marriage. I didn't think it was possible. Not only did I think it would be impossible for her to love me again--and leave her multimillionaire AP who wanted to marry her--but I didn't think I could love her again after her affair. We absolutely hated each other. And yet, after things fell apart in affair land, the door that Plan A had left open, opened wider, and the hidden ember in her heart set ablaze. We reconnected and fully recovered our marriage. What a blessing for us and our family. I am so thankful I followed Dr. Harley's advice and that of the participants of this forum. If I knew then what I know now, I would have tried even harder in Plan A.

Good luck to you, Eddie. Fight the fight. Win the war.






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I hope that the OP is as inspired by that post as I was. Thanks Justthe3ofUs.

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Originally Posted by EddieHead
Yes, Monday 4/6/15.

I didn't really get an opportunity to say much on air. I sort of expected that. Most of the discussion was off air, beforehand.
Here's your show.

Radio Clip of EddieHead's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4


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Below are the notes I jotted down from a discussion I had with my wife yesterday. I came away feeling positive and that we'd accomplished something and laid groundwork for moving forward. I think I approached the difficult topics the right way, so I thought I'd share this with the forum for comment and so that at least it may help others in my sitation. There's a lot to process, so I broke it up into headings and sections. listed below are the primary results from our discussion should you want the "cliff notes" edition.

SHE FEELS WE ARE GETTING BETTER AND THAT THERE IS HOPE FOR RECOVERY

SHE IS AFRAID OF THE FINANCIAL REALITIES OF DIVORCE, BUT DOESN�T WANT THAT TO EFFECT HER DECISION TO STAY

SHE DOES NOT TRUST ME AND DOESN'T FEEL SHE EVER WILL COMPLETELY

I AM SUFFICENTLY CONVINCED THAT THE AFFAIR IS OVER

SHE IS STILL UNABLE TO LOVE ME, BUT SHE IS NOT SURE WHY, AND THAT WORRIES HER

SHE AGREED TO TAKE THE EMOTIONAL NEEDS QUESTIONNAIRE

SHE FEELS INFERIOR WHEN IT COMES TO INTELLIGENCE, STATUS, AND FAMILY


Discussion with WW 4/9/15
(3 months after discovery, 10 weeks after exposure, 4 weeks after her last known contact with OM)

SHE FEELS WE ARE GETTING BETTER AND THAT THERE IS HOPE FOR RECOVERY

When I asked how things were going, she said �fine�. When I asked her to elaborate, she said that means things have improved, and �fine� was better than �ok�.
When I asked her if she had any hope we can survive this, her answer was �I�m still here, aren�t I�. She also mentioned that she thought we could probably make it work in our current state and live together with some level of happiness. She said that many people stay together and are far less happy than we are currently. We both agreed though, that we would not do that. While we get along fine, we are not in love, and we both deserve to be. If we do not continue to improve in the coming months, we�d have to discuss ending our marriage.

SHE IS AFRAID OF A DIVORCE AND DOESN�T WANT THAT TO EFFECT HER DECISION TO STAY

I asked her if she was confident I was dedicated to rebuilding. She said the fact that I have already spoken to two lawyers but haven�t left yet was evidence enough. She said she feels she should also speak to a lawyer, but hasn�t yet because she�s afraid of what she will discover. She�s afraid she will not receive enough in child support to raise My daughter on her own, and that will compel her to stay with me for financial reasons instead of for love. She also feels that if we do divorce, it will get messy as we will fight each other for money and custody. She is also afraid she�d have to move back home because she wouldn�t be able to earn enough to live here, and that would not be good for My daughter. I reassured her that I will never deny my daughter any opportunity in life, no matter what it costs. However, I did not tell her that all of her concerns are completely accurate. If we divorce, I will do everything I can to get as much custody of My daughter as possible and pay her as little as the law will allow. If My daughter is to be dependent on me financially, then I will control how that money is allocated.

SHE DOES NOT TRUST ME

She does believe she can be completely honest with me without threat of consequence, though she still does not trust that I am not spying on her and watching her every move. She indicated that she�ll likely never believe otherwise. She also said she feels her need to give me regular status updates and daily plans is too one-sided, and that I should have to do it too. I agreed to start doing the exact same thing.


I AM SUFFICENTLY CONVINCED THAT THE AFFAIR IS OVER
I didn�t want to dwell on this topic, as we have discussed it at length many times, and I had other more important goals I wanted to accomplish, so didn�t ask too many questions. She answered an emphatic no to all questions regarding having any contact with OM or feeling compelled to contact him. There was no hesitation or waivering in her voice, nor did I get the sense that she was being dishonest. I also have no evidence or reason to suspect that it is continuing. She agreed that I had the right to know if they do come back into contact in any way and that she would be honest with me and tell me if that happened. I assured her that it would not result in the end of our marriage contact occurred again, but reiterated that there needs to be no contact forever if we are to recover. I am confident she is no longer seeking a relationship with him. I am reasonably confident there has been no in-person contact, and minimal, if any, other contact. I do believe her love for him is fading.

SHE IS STILL UNABLE TO LOVE ME, BUT SHE IS NOT SURE WHY, AND THAT WORRIES HER

I apologized for my recent bouts with anger, gave my reasons for them, and that I know they had to stop. She said that she had never seen me like that before, and that it did worry her. She was prepared to leave temporarily if they continued, but is no longer worried as she has seen no evidence of anger for a full week.

I also apologized for losing sight of the fact that she also dealing with her own internal struggles right now. What she said surprised me. She indicated that her primary struggle right now is with the fact that she is still unable to respond to me. She said that I am doing everything right. Cooking, cleaning, showing affection, caring for her and My daughter, leaving love notes, spending time with her but still giving her space and so on. Despite my efforts, none of it was resulting in her loving me more. She indicated that she didn�t know what this meant, and that she was worried that she will never be able to love me again. I told her that I had spoken to experienced professionals about this very issue, and they�ve all said that this is normal. It can take many months or even longer for her love to come back. She was comforted by that answer.

I think I was comforted by her admission. It seems to suggest to me that she wants to love me, but just can�t right now. Ultimately, I think that�s better than having to directly compete with her love of someone else, or her statements in prior months that she simply didn�t want me. This doesn�t mean that she ever will love me again, but I think it means she wants to love me at least acknowledges my efforts as the correct course of action.

I told her that I still loved her, and her exact response was �I know, and I think you�re crazy for that�.


SHE AGREED TO TAKE THE EMOTIONAL NEEDS QUESTIONAIRE
I told her that I know we aren�t ready for a recovery program or counseling, and that my next request wasn�t an attempt to initiate that. I said I felt one of our biggest problems is that we never really identified to one another what our real needs were from a spouse. I told her that I wanted to create the most comfortable, loving, and happy environment possible for her while we are working through this stage, so that I can meet her most important emotional needs. In order to maintain that environment, it would help me greatly if I knew what was most important to her from an emotional perspective.

I suggested Dr. Harley�s Emotional Needs Questionnaire, and she agreed to work on it this weekend. Also, I am not going to fill one out for her. I told her she didn�t need to worry about meeting my needs right now. At this time, I just want her focus to be on determining whether or not she can love me again. If she is able to do that, and eventually reciprocate, she�ll automatically start meeting the most important of my needs.

SHE FEELS INFERIOR WHEN IT COMES TO INTELLIGENCE, STATUS, AND FAMILY BACKGROUND

She said feels like an outsider with my family, which is very confusing to me because my family is very welcoming. She is never excluded from any event, and they all make an effort to engage and involve her. She says she often feels she is included just because she has to be, and that I and my family members spend money on her so that she will love us. She indicated that we are all accomplished successful professionals and very intelligent, and she feels intellectually and professionally inferior to us.

She feels she is looked down upon partly because she chose a career that would allow her the flexibility to have children at the expense of professional success, even though no one in my family has ever given her any real indication that they feel this way. That is because they don�t feel this way. She feels my family believes My daughter is smart and accomplished simply because she has my genetics, not because WW is a good mother. I didn�t say this to her, but that is completely ridiculous and unfounded. I did tell her calmly that it wasn�t true, and because of that I really didn�t know how to address those concerns.

This was mind boggling to me, and I have no idea how to remediate it. Yes, everyone in my family is smart and successful. My family is not judgmental, arrogant, or unpleasant. They loved WW from the moment she came into my life, invited her into our family with open arms, and have never said a harsh word against her. Even now after they are aware of the affair, they are loving to her. They give her gifts not to make her love them, but because they love her. I do the same for exactly the same reason. We are sharing our lives with her because she is family and we love her. There is no other motive. They all know she is a wonderful mother, as do I.

She admitted it�s probably all in her head, but it still bothers her greatly. Her family is very much the opposite of mine. My family lives 10-30 miles away. Hers lives 100+ miles away. My siblings and I are all very close, hers are not. My entire family text and talk to one another every day. My family has a group text thread so we can all communicate and share with one another. WW is included on that thread, but she clearly misinterprets some of what is said. We are not rich, but we all live comfortably. We did not come from money, but she seems to think we did. She kept telling me she did not grow up rich, but neither did I. I don�t think she knows how to react to a family as closely knit as mine is even after five years. I believe She very much feels she and her family are not up to par. I have never believed that, nor has anyone in my family, but I have no idea how to help WW realize that.

Last edited by EddieHead; 04/10/15 12:41 PM.
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