Yes, Remark. Being on a BETTER medication could help you be more attentive and engaged. That is why it is PART of the plan for improvement.

The OTHER part of the plan is for you to implement everything that Sugarcane has been pointing out. It is VERY tedious for her to do all of this explaining to you and she has done it in EXPERT fashion.

Trust me. If you change your behavior, without challenging the point, over time, it will all take shape for you. What I have seen take place in my husband's behavior, is an amazing transformation from checked out to check-in. Bumper Cars to Dual Processing. But initially, he felt like he was learning a check list. It wasn't plain ocean vs. mountain for him either. There were lots of hidden "whys" which made him feel like a blind behavor. But over time, all of these good habits and rules will start to make sense and create a web of connections in your head. Couple that with some good brain medicine, and you actually will have changed.

Now, this takes quite a time, and you have to be patient. Had you learned these concepts growing up, it wouldn't have been so taxing. However, better late than never. In time, you will become someone your wife can depend on.

Each individual annoyance feels to your wife as "more of the same" because it is categorized as "thoughtless or even hurtful." But over time, you can eliminate certain annoyances.

I would agree with Sugar that your wife is giving you a chance. When she tells you that she is DONE, it may be her way of saying that she can't handle any more hurt. When she does say this, remember to do as Sugarcane told you. "I'm sorry that I've hurt you. I will prevent this behavior in the future. Or even, How can I avoid this in the future?". You need to reassure her that you won't give up trying to learn and change to be the husband that she needs. As long as you keep posting here maintaining your more recent attitude, and your behavior changes are occurring, I think that she will start to have hope.

The Policy of Joint Agreement can be confusing when what you are doing (seeing your MIL) is not done with your enthusiastic agreement anymore. Would stop seeing your MIL be a change requiring your husband's enthusiastic agreement, or can you simply stop seeing her until you and your husband agree enthusiastically about the conditions that would make contact with her enjoyable for you?

My position is that the latter option should be followed. Since seeing your MIL is doing something, the POJA suggests you stop doing it until you and your husband can agree on new conditions that make contact work for you.

Your husband wants you to get along with his mother because she is a important person in your lives, and you would have difficulty replacing her. And, he doesn't experience the same negative reactions to her behavior that you experience. But all marriages are that way to some extent, so that's why I created the POJA, so that spouses who were not empathetic to each other's concerns would stop what they are doing until they were able to find a mutually comfortable resolution.

As for his mother, try to have as little contact with her as possible. Your husband is highly motivated to try to accommodate your feelings so that your marriage can be successful. His mother has no such motivation, and you will not be able to change that reality anytime soon. As soon as his mother realizes that her contact with him and her grandchildren depend on her respect for you, she may be more motivated to treat you the way all mothers-in-law should treat their daughters-in-law.

Joyce and I had a somewhat similar experience when my father lost his temper with Joyce over her use of makeup. Coming from a conservative Mennonite background, he didn't believe that women should use it. My immediate reaction was that we would not have any further contact with my parents until he apologized and Joyce was willing to restore a relationship with him. He did sincerely apologize, and we later discovered that he was in the early stages of Alzheimer's disease. Our relationship with my parents was restored, but the incident had a permanent effect on Joyce. She could not be with him for any length of time without experiencing extreme anxiety, but since they lived in a different state the problem was minimized. I let Joyce know that any contact we had with my family was entirely up to her.

In your case, I would recommend the same. Your husband understands the value of enthusiastic joint decisions in marriage, and how in-laws can ruin that enthusiasm. Your in-laws have much to gain by reconciling, and will try to do so as best they can to win your favor. But even if they react perfectly from now on, you will probably react the way Joyce did toward my father -- with great anxiety. The fact that he apologized and that we discovered that the cause was the early stages of dementia didn't affect her negative reaction. She did her best to reconcile but nothing changed the effect he had on her. The fact that my mother supported her reaction, and was extremely upset with my father for what he did, helped. But it could not erase the nightmare she experienced.

Joyce and I faced a similar situation when my father lost his temper with Joyce when we were visiting them. I told both my mother and father that we would not be having any contact with them until Joyce felt comfortable with it, which may never happen. My father wrote a very sincere apology, and Joyce forgave him. But if that apology had not been written, or if Joyce had not accepted it, we would not have seen them again.

Do nothing means no contact until you and (your H) come to an enthusiastic agreement about contacts between all of you, including him, and his parents. I've counseled many couples where parents have been "Plan Bd" and the parents usually get the message that if they want to see their child and grandchildren, they must treat their daughter or son-in-law with the utmost respect.

There are two types of control in marriage: Forcing your spouse to do something they don't want to do, and forcing your spouse to stop doing what you don't want them to do. I don't recommend either of those, but the first is usually far worse than the second. Doing something that's damaging is usually worse than not doing anything.

But the POJA is not designed to control anyone in marriage. In fact, it's designed to help spouses avoid being controlling. It's not a demand, it's a request that's based on the principle that two people who care for each other will avoid hurting each other. When one says that an act of the other is hurtful, they stop doing it. I've added the caveat, "enthusiastic," because I want to be sure that neither is agreeing to a hurtful act just to try to get along.

In the case of ... talking to her sister, it is offensive to ...for a variety of reasons, but I won't go into them now. The point is that he's told ... that he's offended by it. She now has a decision to make. If she talks to her sister, she knows that he will be offended. Does she care enough about his feelings to avoid doing something that will offend him?

... ... has already led ... to believe that she doesn't care about him. He will need plenty of evidence of her change of heart before he can trust her again, and every time she does something that she knows offends him, it sets their relationship back.

On the other hand, ... has been going through a great emotional turmoil with her effort to reconcile, and her sister provides much needed support for her. The solution to the problem she faces is to find the support she needs in a way that does not offend her husband.

In the meantime, I'd recommend avoiding contact with ... sister until you are both well on your way to recovery.

The POJA does not offer solutions to problems. It simply states that the only real solution must be one that makes both of you happy. This rule is needed in marriage because neither of you can feel the impact of each other's choices, and are likely to make decisions that work to the benefit of only one of you. As you've already discovered, those decisions, such as the one you made when you decided to have an affair, will ruin your marriage.

But it may take quite a while before you have become experts at making mutually enthusiastic decisions. Right now, you may be stuck with either violating the rule, or doing nothing, because you don't know how to how to make decisions that take each other's feelings into account. And that's where the rule is particularly valuable. It states that you must do nothing under those conditions. It forces you to put the four guidelines to successful negotiation on the front burner so that you can get on with life.

My advice is for both of you to stick to the POJA for the rest of your lives together, since any violation will threaten your marriage. And now is the time to practice making all of your decisions mutually beneficial. If by Christmas you have not yet found a way to solve this in-law problem with mutual enthusiasm, neither of you should share this holiday with them. But I'm sure that by next Christmas, you'll have something worked out.

Of course, your in-laws may not understand what you're trying to achieve, and may not cooperate with you. They may try to interfere with the steps you're taking to build your marriage. Even if you are uncomfortable being with them this Christmas, they may insist that at least he join them. If that's the case, your husband must gently but firmly let them know that their efforts are not helping, and that from now on his decisions must make you both happy.

Holidays are usually very difficult for marriages that are in the process of recovery, so this year may be a throw-away season. But by next year, the relationship you have with your in-laws may be terrific, and your holiday experience will match the quality of your marriage.

Remember to apply the Policy of Joint Agreement to every decision you make. Unless you are in enthusiastic agreement about your husband's private conversations with his family, they should not take place. If you are enthusiastically willing to have those conversations when both of you are present, then his family can choose to either talk with both of you or not talk at all. It's that simple.

The POJA is a rule that when followed leads to the creation of a lifestyle that's enjoyable for both spouses. It's the central goal of marital negotiation. But implementation of that crucial rule is impossible if a couple persists in demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts. It can only be implemented in a safe and pleasant environment.

It's my position that until you can completely avoid arguing about anything with your wife, you will not be able to negotiate about in-laws or anything else. Right now, conflicts will always lead to massive Love Bank withdrawals whenever you try to resolve them.

With the holidays coming up, I recommend that your children be able to see their grandparents. If you were to divorce, they would have every right to do so. You would have no choice in the matter. To avoid that tragic outcome, your primary objective right now should be to make Love Bank deposits, and any attempt on your part to resolve a conflict will do the opposite.

When you can raise issues without being demanding, disrespectful, or angry, you will be in a position to implement the POJA. You're not there yet. Next year, during the holidays, your negotiating skills may have risen to a level where you and your wife can come to a mutually enjoyable agreement regarding your children's visits with their grandparents. But for now, my advice is to let them go, and focus your attention on avoiding conflicts.

What about Remarks plan to visit his parents without his Wife having to go with?

Isn't that Independent Behavior going to create additional Love Bank Withdrawals?

I specifically raise that point, because I foresee that action as not providing the behavior that his Wife desires out of him and she is reluctantly just telling him to go there without her, because she just doesn't give a darn anymore.

We've addressed that point. Have you read all the posts since Remark came back?

Not so much. I do feel a need to go see my parents as they age and that is my former hometown. It's not a burden to me to go up there. It is for her, I understand. No selfish demand from me.

Despite your father's advanced age, you should leave this issue alone for now. Do not use direct or indirect means to communicate that you wish your wife would enthusiastically agree for you to visit the family. You will be able to revisit this issue if your marriage turns around - which, if it does, will mean that your POJA skills have improved. If your marriage improves, it will be because you have both learned how to take each other's perspective into account before making enthusiastic joint decisions.

Last night, wife said "you know our marriage is unrecoverable, right?"
The night before she said she felt her life was in limbo, not able to go forward with me in it.
What can I do to console her, give her hope?
Remark

Yes I have.

This left me wondering what he was still going to do though.


He said he is not demanding it from her while also stating it was no burden for him to go there.

Maybe you interpreted it differently than I did, but I felt the point needed clarification.

Not only do not request/require his Wife to go to his Parents Hometown, but also that he does not go, leaving her behind.

LTL

He said he is not demanding it from her while also stating it was no burden for him to go there.

Maybe you interpreted it differently than I did, but I felt the point needed clarification.

Not only do not request/require his Wife to go to his Parents Hometown, but also that he does not go, leaving her behind.

Remark here,
What I was intending to convey is that, if it is Not independent behavior, and she doesn't want to go visit them, may/should I go alone? As I understand independent behavior, it is not IB if both parties agree in POJA fashion, with neither being neglected or offended. Joyce goes shopping or to choir while Dr H does something else with no IB being committed. Now, granted, a weekend apart isn't good normally, but we sleep in different rooms anyway. I'd miss her, but I don't think I would be missed.
It is a six hour drive to their town. That is the 'burden' to her that I don't mind.

You're saying I shouldn't go at all even if she approves of it?

Remark

So, applying POJA, the above quotes, etc. are difficult for me now.

[quote=LearnedTooLate] [Quote]

My additional point, taken from Dr Harley's posts, about leaving the issue alone should make it clear that he needs to...leave the issue of visiting his parents alone. That means - the whole issue. He can't leave an issue alone by discussing another strategy related to it.

OK,

So, applying POJA, the above quotes, etc. are difficult for me now.

Then, they said some things causing a falling out. Everyone apologized and forgave each other but wife is not comfortable them visiting here.