DQ,
First, you need to understand, communicating apologies and intentions are LB's to her. That's not a DJ. It's her feedback on my many apologies, promises and statements of intentions.

1. I can/will list the ways I committed LB's last night and the night before though, if there were seven, I'm not sure I can come up with seven.
2. I can list my intentions to listen and learn, but intentions, too, as mentioned, are an LB. Intentions don't mean anything. It's the results that matter. So, any intention or promise or reference to the future to her is an LB. She calls it my "car salesman" response.

I don't know what my Taker is really expecting right now.

I will work on my list of LB's that I committed last night.

Last night's discussion was based on the LB of why I distracted myself by rebooting my PC while we were talking the night before.
Thanks,
Remark

Repeatedly apologizing and voicing intentions is a lovebuster to her because actions speak louder than words and you weren't really following through.


But you should still reiterate your intent to learn to change your bad habits and protect her from your disrespect. And then keep at it. Don't punish her because you are in remediation.

Sugarcane,

I was sick. When not in conversation with W, I was in the bathroom sitting on the porcelain, or picking son up from his commitment last night.

The discussion centered on why I still commit LB's, her LB's, as defined by her. Monday night, my PC was rebooting and required a 'Y' response to a question. So, I did, while we were talking. I didn't think it distracted from the conversation in anyway, but it was an LB to her,a breach of UA. So, that was again the topic last night. On the same topic Monday night, I admitted, that sometimes, I am overwhelmed by the LB's I still commit. Slowness to respond is another LB. When I said that one, apparently, there had not been much of a delay, so she felt that was the first and only thing I've said recently that she could believe.

I honestly don't know what was an "rip of DJ's or nasty attitude". At 9:30ish, I did go to the bed to be near the bathroom, as I was still having stomach issues. (Stomach is still upset this AM.)

I'm reviewing last night. Eyes leaving her to gaze on anything as I answer her, is an LB. So, though I think I've done much better on that, my eyes still leave her occasionally as I am concentrating on whatever her question was. I'm not consciously looking at anything, just concentrating on the question.

Saying "I don't know" is an LB, so, I try to avoid that. "Why didn't you remember that anything like rebooting PC while we are talking is an LB?", was asked last night. "I didn't think it was compromising any of my attention" or "I don't know", were not good answers, in fact LB's.

Even though my answer I consider on topic, but she doesn't, is an LB. Or answering a question with a question is an LB.

So, I work to be sensitive to that kind of thing, but fail often.

If I recall, those are what she must be referring to, but nothing like an AO or anything happened.

Thanks for inquiring and helping,
Remark

Thank you for answering.

You need to stop having that kind of argument. I can't call it a conversation or a discussion - it is an argument, and it is destined to result in failure and disappointment.

You don't need to explain why you still LB. There will never be a satisfactory answer to that, for anyone who asks it of their spouse. Instead, you need to stop the LB.

You wife needs to list your LBs on paper and give you the list once a week. Don't discuss it; just stop the LBs.

The "discussions" you keep having about your marriage are sapping both your souls, and making things worse than they are already. Stop having the discussions.

Sugarcane,

I agree with you in spades.

I don't think she'll agree to give me that list. She hates lists because if it were in my heart, I'd need no list, she says. And, I'll write lists and post them on the mirror in our bathroom, only to not do them, she has often said.

My only hope (and put effort to do) is to simply quit them, all of them, 100% eliminated.

Thanks,
Remark

DidntQuit,

OK, I will reiterate my intent to change the bad habits and protect her from my disrespect and prove it.

Thanks,
Remark

It does sound to me as if you unleashed a string of DJs, however. Words to the effect that nothing will satisfy your wife, that you will never meet the standard that she is setting etc are a mixture of DJs and just plain stupid.

Telling her that she is never satisfied is a DJ.

Telling her that you can never meet her standards is admitting that she's wasting her time with you. Why would you tell her that? Is that really the case? If so, give up now and stop wasting her time.

If you don't mean it that way, don't say it at all.

SugarCane,

OK, I understand that.

No, I think I can be a Harley husband. I get encouraged by the forum and MBRadio everyday. Yet, I do get exhausted and frustrated once in a while when we spend most, if not all, of our UA talking about my "warts". Having said that, please understand, I am committed to changing and being one.

Thanks,
Remark

Explain to me about this UA time, please.

UA time is spent out of the house, on dates (alone together - not with your son). Are you doing that? I thought your wife refused to go out alone with you. What do you do for dates?

So, at some point on a date, you start talking about the unpleasant subject of your failings? How is that meeting the criteria for UA time? Are you both aware of what the criteria are, and what the purpose of UA time is?

Sugarcane,

You are right, we don't go out much. We had occasion to kill a couple of hours while our son had a party to attend Friday night. We were 20-25 mins from home, so I talked her into eating out to kill those two hours, hoping to have a pleasant time. I was looking forward to pleasant UA time, nothing negative.

That's the only "date" we've had for as long as I can remember.

I am not badmouthing my wife, but she cannot enjoy me or time out (on a date) when something negative is bothering her. She says "I cannot talk about froo-froo (sp?) stuff when we have so many problems". So, whether we're out or at home, it's tough for her to enjoy anything related to me, and so she'll want to discuss whatever problem. Again, I am not badmouthing her. It's simply how she's wired. It's, of course, compounded by my defensiveness and aversion to conflict.

Yes, I believe I know what UA time is. As familiar as she is with the Harley program, I think she does too.

That help?
Remark

Remark, when's the last time you opened up Lovebustets or 5 Steps to Romantic Love?

When you get exhausted, you must avoid being demanding, disrespectful, or angry. At all costs.

Markos,

Yes, I agree. And I do a good job, I think. But, as we know, what I think doesn't mean anything. And, I'm learning NOT to involve/mention her in any way, shape or form. I need for focus on my "plank" (in the eye) and not her "speck".

I don't recall if I got back to you, but I did look up the "mining her heart" biblical reference. But, I couldn't find it. Our pastor advised that years ago, and I assumed it to be biblically-based. Perhaps not.

Thanks,
Remark

Openeyes11,

LoveBusters, last weekend.
Five Steps, a few months ago.
The workbook to HWSW, last week.
Anything specific you're thinking I should re-read?

Good idea to review often.
Thanks,
Remark

have you given up? where are you?

HH,
No, not giving up.
Not sure how to proceed.
Also, I've logged 72 pages on this thread. I feel retarded.
I don't know how to proceed. Should I start a new different thread? The closest I see out there is 4x pages !
But, not giving up.
I check in on the forum all the time and read others similar posts as well.
Thanks for checking in,
Remark

You don't get to the olympics by training twice a week. If you have 72 pages, and others have four, expect to have better results in the end. The harder and longer you work, the better your results will be and the longer they will last.

Your situation did not develop in a few months and it will take more time to resolve than an acute problem.
If you have mold on the walls of your house, you wouldn't take care of that problem by just putting some paint on it. Some people do and they discover that this only makes the problem worse. That is what you have done in the past. Superficially saying the right words, but not taking care of the underlying problems. That was just a thin layer of paint.

What you have started to do now, is to take down the mouldy walls and renovate, instead of redecorating. Of course it will look ugly in the beginning, but it takes time and effort to build your relationship walls up so that they may remain strong.
Not only nice to look at from the outside, but also firm on the inside.

Build your relationship house out of stone instead of cardboard and it will hold a lifetime.

All,
OK, there are three stages of the marriage relationship, intimacy, conflict and withdrawal.

My wife is in withdrawal and says I want to go back to intimacy without going through conflict.

Someone, please give me some advice on how to do that without violating the other forum advice of avoiding the long, rehashing, negative conversations we always get into.

What chapter of which Harley book would help me with that?

Thanks, Remark

Can you please clarify...

Is your wife saying that YOU are trying to get to intimacy without going through conflict?

Or is she saying that SHE wants to get to intimacy without going thru conflict ?

Is she making a complaint or a thoughtful request here?

DQ,

I believe she is saying that if I want to have froo-froo conversation or do things for her, or with her, I'm skipping the conflict phase, a phase we have to go through to get back to intimacy.

I interpret the forum telling me to avoid LBS, avoid rehashing old offenses, as she is relating it, skipping some conflict phase of the Harley process. (Being in withdrawal is the normal Harley phase for her. And, she feels I'm still committing LBs, though I don't know what they would be at this point. As we've interacted very little in the past week.

That answer your question?
Thanks,Remark