Hi all,

Thank you for being here. Since my last post I have followed the forum regularly which has been really helpful. My FWH and I continue to work on recovery using MB concepts and materials. It has been very slow going, but we have made good progress in many areas. I'm astounded at my H's progress in eliminating many LB's and in his improvement in meeting my EN's. I know he is sincerely trying. BUT

From time to time I'm absolutely baffled by his insensitivity and lack of understanding my feelings. The issue always is about PA and having to feel in competition with other females. The M was plagued by his hurtful, demeaning comparisons. It destroyed my M and my love for him. He thinks I am now overly sensitive when he slips up, but I just can't understand how he doesn't seem to get it after all of this time working on it. He has suggested I ask the forum if I am just being overly sensitive. I have suggested he join the forum which he has agreed to do. We'll work on doing that today.

Here are a few examples of slip ups:


Took a nice mid-winter vacation. The first morning, out of consideration for me he says he will take a little walk to give me time as I get ready to go out to breakfast. I wait and wait. When he returns he has already eaten breakfast! It hurt me, particularly since this place is crawling with beautiful women, just his type. It put a bit of a dark cloud over an otherwise very nice vacation.

We have been trying for more UA time. Last time we went for a dinner date which ended up spoiled for me as the pretty young waitress pointedly smiled and made direct eye contact wiith my H every time she went by (ignoring me completely) and he reciprocated everytime until realizing halfway through I was not enjoying it. I should have spoke up, but was so taken aback by it, I was speechless. My H and I discussed it and how we should have handled it, but he was upset that it would bother me so much. He didn't really own up to it.

This past week as we worked on the RH worksheet, my husband came clean on some very hurtful behaviors in years past. Some of it was so vile, things I never would have found out about. I appreciated him for finally being honest though it was incredibly painful to hear. It was a tough evening for both of us. Made more so when he actually accused me of encouraging the truthfulness then acting accepting of it in order to get revenge later down the road! He was apologetic and appalled by his reponse and we worked through that one. Then the next day....

He had been at a work meeting about project he had been deadset against. He came back now very enthusiastic about it expressing how he would like to be a part of the project now. On checking his email I found he had sent an email to the presenter, a woman outside the company. He apologized for some rudeness and let her know he was enthusiastic about working on the project. Of course I was suspicious and looked her up. Just as I thought-a young pretty woman, just his type! I got upset. After the honesty bomb dropped the day before, this was too much and I didn't handle it in a good MB manner. I withdrew, but later apologized.

Next day as a way to make up for it, H brought me my favorite candy and apologized. Also in his off beat sort of way trying to humor me, I suppose, he brought home a tabloid (I really don't like them) The feature article was hot babes in bikinis vs those poor souls the tabloids love to make fun of--older women in terrible shape. Seeing how our whole 30 plus year marriage was destroyed by his hurtful comments in comparing me to young attractive women, I just don't know how in the world he could even think I would find humor in it. I was so stunned I didn't even react to it. We went ahead and had a nice evening. I truly think he was oblivious and that is the wierd part of it. I also believe the tabloid was partly brought home for himself as a means of using for self-gratification which had been an issue.

So back to my husband's question for the forum, Let's say my H really is oblivious to his LB behavior, is his BS just being too sensitive?

Hi lightwalker, I'm sorry you are having trouble.

I can totally relate to your sensitivity, my H had an A with a younger woman and I was so sensitive, couldn't even look at the mirror.

A few questions to start, how are you doing on UA time? What do you do for UA?

It shouldn't matter to your H what we say about your feelings, your feelings are valid becuase they are yours. Even if we think they are silly you have no power over them. Your H on the other hand, does have power over his actions, he should make an effort to change whatever habits hurt or annoy you.

On the other hand, how are you doing on PA. If your H has a need for PA, you need to care for it. Obviously this needs to be done in a way you are entusiastic about.

There are some great poster that would love to help your H, I really hope he takes this opportunity

Thank you for your response Alada.

We are still not doing great at UA time though 100% better than the past. I would say it is only 10 hrs per week. My H still feels he doesn't have that kind of time. He does have time for a few other recreational activities though. This is an area we really need to improve for the marriage to improve, I know.

For UA time, we go out to dinner, take walks, take drives. We spend an hour or two a day in conversation instead of him watching TV. That actually is my favorite time as going out together is difficult due to triggers. Also he is taking more time off from work so we can get out of town for a few days now and then.

I've definately attended more to PA and he notices and says he appreciates it. I've tried to encourage him to be more specific, but he says that is difficult due to my sensitivity on the subject, so we need more effort there. He says he is still attracted to me and wants to continue to improve in the area of SF, but the reality is that we are of the age that there is only so much I can do about PA other than a complete overhaul, and even that wouldn't really do it for him. Bottom line is I can never be young and pretty.

Actually domestic support is at the top of his EN list now and I have been putting more effort there. SF and PA are further down his list as he has aged but it is still very hurtful to me due to the A and everything else. I know it is increasing UA to decrease the painful memories that is needed. Hopefully he might get some encouragment if he joins the forum.

I'm genuinely shocked at your update. These are horrible things that he has done!

You say your H has eliminated many LBs and improved meeting your ENs, and is sincerely trying, but I think that this behaviour overshadows all of that (not the RH worksheet, but the other four instances).

I don't think it's any good if he is much nicer to you, and takes you out and so on, if he has these mini-betrayals. I would say that stopping all of those is much more important than whatever other LBs he has stopped.

What's really shocking is that he doesn't seem to take your concerns and distress seriously. He seems to think his behaviour is amusing. The tabloid thing? He really did that? Who does he think he is that he can swan around, chatting and smiling to women in front to you? Does he think he's Mick Jagger?

In your shoes, I'd be signing up for the online course. He needs to be in direct contact with Dr Harley. At the very least, get yourselves on the radio show and let Dr Harley beat him around the head a bit.

I'm appalled and if I were you, would tell him seriously that any further signs of coasting for affairs / covering by telling you you are crazy and sensitive will not likely convince you to stay in the marriage.

Say it matter if factly and own it. Coasting for affairs while telling you you are crazy = no more chances. 'I will not tolerate my concerns over these women being dismissed' is another good one.

Own it as your own standard and idea because it doesn't MATTER what we think. He respects YOUR feelings - end of!

What in heaven does it matter what some strangers find sensitive when his wife is hurting?

I would also tell him you expect him to work much harder to learn how to reform. His sensitivity comment - wow it's like he's never heard of MB.

He should be on here - not you, getting straightened out by Dr H. Coaching with Steve.


Raise that bar so much higher.



These are facts. Inappropriate interaction with women and dismissing your right to object are things he has DONE.

This isn't a joke. It's gaslighting masquerading as a joke.

Impossibly cruel.

Nobody is that stupid.

I totally agree with the others. His behavior is horrible and I'm afraid you're used to it and you shouldn't be.

Are you in the online course? Will you email Dr. Harley?

I skimmed your thread and see many MB checklist items that were seemingly skipped over that were pointed out to you, you said you would address but ??

~ Exposure. Did you end up exposing the 6 year affair to close friends and family? Not only will this give you the support it sounds like you desparately need but it should help to clear remaining fog. And sorry to say, but your H still sounds foggy.

~ Polygraph. What happened with this? Not only is the 6 year EA hard to believe but with the long standing history of SSL and inappropriate wayward behavior, you really have NO IDEA what else he has been up to.

~ EP list. This was posted to you and you said you were concerned about renewed contact bc your H has the same work phone and email. What was done about this? Also your H should not have a "work phone" that you cannot properly check up on (spyware and look at records) . What about all of the other items on the list?

I can tell you right now that your H is not taking the EPs seriously at all. He didn't need to email the pretty young coworker to express enthusiasm at their upcoming work together. Completely inappropriate.

The time to address these issues is AT THE START of recovery. Not skim over them and skip over to the EN-meeting part of the program.

Big red flag when a F?WS is telling a BS that they are being overly sensitive.

Big Red Flag!!

This is the kind of language my ex H used with me to get me to back off and feel badly when I tried telling him his behavior was making me uncomfortable. He ended up having another affair and basically tricked me into a false recovery for years while he carried on his IB and SSL.

And....it doesn't matter if you ARE being overly sensitve! POJA and MB means eliminating behavior that makes you are not enthusiastic about, period.

Dr Harley wrote to me on the private forum regarding this issue:

Gosh I love Dr H.

This is what I love about this forum, SugarCane, people here don't mince words! Mick Jagger? Well, I don't know about that, but I do think he has been thinking of himself as a teenage boy instead of the 60-year-old that he is... I do think he has begun to think of himself a little more realisticly lately though as he just said the other day he is trying to stop and observe his own behavior to see if there is a "creep" factor there-- as in creepy old man. He said he needs to grow up.

Yesterday we did talk about contacting Dr. Harley. My H has grown to respect Dr. H's perspectives a lot and would be on board with it. I agree he needs some "beating around the head" to get those MB concepts drummed into it, not by me, of course!!

Yes, Indie, I know what you mean--stupid? He's not unintelligent, but sometimes, and I'm serious about this, it seems there is some kind of gap in the Common Sense Dept.

His whole family often wondered about his father too--a smart man in many ways who did the most confounding things at times--things which were quite odd. Seriously, there are some MH problems, which complicate matters, nevertheless, there is no excuse for the behavior. I know I am responsible for setting the bar high as you have rightly stated, but sometimes I am so dumbfounded by it all I'm rendered speechless as well as senseless. Thank goodness for MB and this forum to help get my thinking back on track.

I understand it is my feelings he should be considering no matter what others may think--a major MB concept, but this has always been an issue too; the perspective of others is often taken in and accepted when I have been saying the very same thing but, he doesn't hear me. I will plan to contact Dr. H.

And Radical Honesty should NEVER be disrespectful. There is a way to be truthful without being critical. Your husband has 0 skillz. Whenever he starts to play victim to your hurt, leave the room. It's gaslighting by playing dumb. His job is to put a bubble of protection around you. He is doing the opposite.

I wouldn't give enthusiastic agreement to walks alone like that. You are on vacation Together.

lightwalker,

Could you please answer these?

DQ and BH no, there has been no Poly as of yet. I did locate one in another city and H said yes, he would gladly do it. After thinking about Dr. H's discussion on polys I decided to wait and see what I learned from RH work first. The info I learned recently from RH reinforces the need to follow the strict EP guidelines.

Thank you SQ for this Dr H. post. I've answered your questions re the EP's in my previous post--somehow I missed your posts
the first time I looked through the responses.

lightwalker,

I am going to be blunt with you. You don't seem to really be following the advice or the steps and just kind of skimming over the most important part of recovery.

Then, you come back basically telling us your WH is still doing these foggy things....we point them out to you, point out things that were told to you when you first got here and again, and here we go again, you are doing the same thing.

You realize that the people posting to you have been posting here for years and years and are pointing these things out for GOOD REASON, right?

You can't sweep these things under the rug and just keep focusing on meeting ENs. That WILL NOT work when dealing with a fogged out spouse.

Your WH should not be reading here, yet.
Is he reading this thread?

You were told on Page 1 that the contact information needed to be changed. You can't "monitor" the phone when you have no access to the records and can't put spyware on it. Again, not sure why this is being ignored ??

From Page 1:

We know you can't monitor the work phone. What about the spyware on other devices such as the computer in the home? You said you were going to look into it. What happened with that?

You skipped over my question about exposure that was addressed with you on Page 1 of this thread.


Your WH going and telling people about who knows what after you had left him is not exposure.

So as far as I can tell exposure has been skipped in this case. Has this been resolved? I am guessing not since you did not answer the question.