I really don't think we need to be lectured about this.

And you are wrong.

And there are circumstances in which we would all make that choice.

Repeating yourself is not going to make it true.

When Dr. Harley tried that, it failed.

No one has.

But it doesn't.


Just like anybody else with good character would have made, given the same circumstances.

Seriously.

It is either choices you make, or it is a character issue. It cannot be both.

This seems to be getting too emotional. PW isn't lecturing anyone.

If the discussion can remain civil, may I ask if having an affair is considered morally wrong? If it is, then the decision to have an affair was a moral choice.

Yes, she is.

As Melody has pointed out, there rarely is a time when someone actually makes the decision to have an affair.

Ok, this is getting nonsensical.

How can it not be a character issue and not a choice? My choices are a reflection of my character. Being a murder is a reflection on my character...it is also a poor choice. The same thing with adultery. Character is the exercise of the will. It is not immutable. It can change over time. At it can be great in some places and lacking in others. I would say that I would be hard pressed to have an affair (not impossible, but it would take ALOT--like being locked in a room with a man who likes everything I like and is really cute for a couple of weeks), but I have a character issue when it comes to anger. I felt ENTITLED to it. That was a character issue. I am changing that character issue--I'm not entitled to it-- and my behavior is changing accordingly.

Also, it is not true that everyone would have an affair under the right circumstances. It can't be. That is fatalistic and implies that people cannot control what they do. That is not true. Again, if that were true--EVERY betrayed spouse who goes through at two year divorce would have an affair.

Anyway, whatever guys. I am not sure why you are attacking me, when I largely agree with you. You seem to get mad at me for pointing out that people can have serious moral failures and make horrible choices that they simply self-justify (like adultery).

I think you're reading more into PW's posts than she intends.

I agree that there's probably not a one-time conscious decision of "Hey, I think I'll break my wedding vows and totally destroy my spouse." But what leads up to the affair are small choices that are at best morally questionable.

Poor boundaries and character are totally different Pigglet. Poor boundary you allow OS friend to get emotionally close without the intention of anything happening, maybe even thinking you have high moral values and nothing could ever happen and that you would never break your vows. You are making a bad choice due to poor boundaries. Many affairs start online and maybe they had high boundaries in person but thought, what is a one time reply for a message, then went to two and ended up a frequent chatting. You are totally responsible for your choice. You are responsible. No one says you arent.
After exposure, then I think it is about character. I don't know, maybe even not but thats how I see it and the boundary word is the best word that defines the start of an affair, or most. Saying poor boundary doesn't absolve your crime. Now after you know that low boundaries open you up for an affair and not having high boundaries, then it is about character. But many people have low boundaries not because of low moral standards pre-affair.

Your character and your choices are two different things.

Your logic doesn't follow. Just because everybody would have an affair given the right circumstances does not mean that EVERY BS who goes through a two year divorce would have an affair. There is no logic in that line of reasoning.

But it is true that everybody would have an affair given the RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. If you make the same choices that a wayward makes, and put yourself in the same position that a wayward is in, you WILL have an affair. You cannot put yourself in that circumstance and be immune.

Disagreeing with you is not attacking you.

And nobody has disagreed that people can make serious moral failures and horrible choices. Don't put words in our mouths, okay?

And the last thing I'd like to point out is that intention simply doesn't matter--

Most people don't intend to have affairs. So what? I also didn't intend to make love unit withdrawls with my anger either. I simply wanted to get my way. I made a series of choices--anger--based on my character (i am entitled to yell at my husband so he knows how upset I am does what I want). That is wrong. My entitlement led to bad behavior.

That is the same thing with an affair. So, your intention is to get your needs met, not to hurt your spouse. But in the process you do because your thought process is that you should get your needs met (which is legitimate), but that having this friendship is the way to do it (entitlement). I remember my husband telling me "you have no RIGHT to tell me that she can't be in my life." If that isn't entitlement, I don't know what is.

I actually remember feeling an attraction to that co-worker I mentioned before, and made a conscience choice to STAY AWAY from that guy. I have character failings in other places, though.

Anyway, If you feel lectured at, then I am sorry. I still don't think I am saying anything that that's controversial or even out of line with this program.

A lot of people would take issue with that. A lot of people would see a difference between "I'm going to go have sex with that guy!" and "That man made me feel good when he talked to me at work."

A lot of people do not see a moral issue with having a friendly conversation with the opposite sex. The little steps are not necessarily seen as moral issues.

At Marriage Builders, we learn that they are certainly POOR BOUNDARIES. But they are not going to be seen as immoral by even your average church-goer.

There's a huge difference in affairs that are intentional and those that are not.

Those that are intentional are far less likely to be recovered from. They tend to be the serial cheaters -- people who are addicted to affairs rather than to a person.

Sure. If that person recognizes that an affair is not a legitimate way to get their needs met and changes their behavior around it--as well as their sense of entitlement about it, which I would argue is a character issue--changes. The thoughts can follow the actions, certainly.

But what I am saying is that intention doesn't matter in terms of getting involved in the first place. It is still a series of choices that leads to the affair. I would argue that those choices are largely conscience even if people think they are innocent to start. At least my husband, for instance, knew what he was doing--he just justified his actions at every step and even in a moment of clarity admitted to me. He said, "N, I didn't do this because you were a bad wife. I knew that I should have stopped talking to her so much and that it was hurting you. I just didn't want to. I didn't even make an effort to. I thought I deserved a little attention." Again--entitlement alert!

Whereas, I mentioned before, I did make that effort with my former co-worker. That may seem self-righteous, but it's true. It doesn't make me a better person. It means I don't have a sense of entitlement around getting my emotional needs met it that way.

Anyway--bottom line: I think Dr. Harley's approach works simply because he focuses on the behavior, not the thinking (entitlement), which clearly makes people upset because nobody wants to think of themselves as a bad person. it doesn't mean the thinking doesn't have to change. Feelings, thinking, character can most certainly follow after action.

Yes, it does matter. It is an entirely different beast.

Do you listen to the radio show on a regular basis?

I agree that serial cheaters have a stronger sense of entitlement than one-timers, certainly. That doesn't mean the entitlement doesn't exist with one timers, at least in their thinking and actions leading up to and during an affair.

You are correct that in terms of recovery it makes a difference. When someone cheats repeatedly, it means they aren't giving up their entitlement. They are picking their entitlement to their IB, SSL and affair addictions over you. Definitely.

Do you listen to the radio show on a regular basis?

I disagree completely. Most people have poor boundaries out of ignorance, not out of poor character or a sense of entitlement. I am a recovering alcoholic [30 years sober in April] and I never made a decision to be an alcoholic. I drank and then one day I realized "OH MY GOD, I can't stop. I don't want to stop." And then the excuses and rationalizations set in. Was I am immoral person? No, I was not. I was ignorant of the risks. I was vulnerable to alcoholism and ignorant of the risks.

Is that an excuse? OH NO. There is no excuse.


Because you are aware of the risks and behave appropriately. Most people are not aware of risks at all and believe they "should be trusted." They tend to be more vulnerable than others because they believe they are IMMUNE to it.


Conscience is a funny thing when you are facing an addiction. The conscience gets drowned out by rationalizations and lies and excuses that are fueled by an overwhelming addiction. IT's funny, but in the midst of my alcoholism I still remember the sense that "my conscience is SCREAMING to get out!!"

There is a massive difference between someone who is out actively trolling for action and one who sort of stumbles into an affair. We hear so many say that they "never ever intended on having an affair. I can't believe this is me." Whereas the serial cheater can believe it because he is actively looking for it.