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And I don't understand the paper crane thing. Too much effort for 1 (not 1000) micro transaction.
***EDIT*** Don't waste your time on one 'big' thing, but use it for lots of small (and meaningful) things.
***EDIT***
Last edited by Ariel; 07/29/15 06:53 AM. Reason: Please do not post links.
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And I don't understand the paper crane thing. Too much effort for 1 (not 1000) micro transaction.
***EDIT*** Don't waste your time on one 'big' thing, but use it for lots of small (and meaningful) things.
***EDIT*** The cranes were important to her. Me not participating enthusiastically, and in fact being grumpy and obnoxiously deriding their value, communicated a selfishness and a lack of care for something important to her. Do you think me folding 1000 cranes will have no effect and be a complete waste of time?
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Do you think me folding 1000 cranes will have no effect and be a complete waste of time? Complete waste of time. Your actions told your fianc�e that you did not care about the marriage and did not believe in the vows you were making. That is still the case today and will be after 1000 cranes. She will just throw them away.
3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
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Were important, past tense. Do you think you can compensate the lack of care and commitment you showed her back then by folding those cranes now?
You think like a lot of men, big, visible and/or expensive things contribute to the love bank and small things don't count. For women, those "small" things are important, because with simple acts, a considerate husband can express his care and love.
You want to meet her emotional needs. I think folding 1000 cranes will be a complete waste of time and paper, unless paper cranes are top of her emotional needs.
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Women seem so much less able to ignore the lack of paperwork or security. I know so many self styled modern women who hate living with their boyfriends, but feel they have to serve out an interview period first. Why? Half hour ceremony and everyone knows where they stand. I think "marriage" is just a piece of paper. Commitment comes from within someone. I always told my "wife" I didn't need a piece of paper or a ceremony to commit myself totally to her. But it was important to her. So I proposed.
I guess I was proven correct. How much commitment can someone have if they'll go to all the trouble and expense of a ceremony, invite friends and relatives that travel hundreds kilometers and expense to attend, to just end it with no prior discussion 3 months later.
. It's really often the case that the bigger the wedding the weaker the commitment. Not always, but if you are willing to delay vows to save up for flowers and frills you are making the decision that the flowers mean more than the vows. Bringing relatives hundreds of miles doesn't exactly say anything about your commitment to the other person either. Dr Hs article on the three purposes of a wedding sums this up perfectly. Two of the purposes cost a fortune, the commitment purpose is so cheap its almost free. You can legally endow someone with your goods and promise to witnesses that they can rebuke you pretty hard with infidelity upon exposure for very little cash or wedding planning. I have no idea why people make such a circus of it. Frankly I think all it was for her was a self actualising event that she could tick off. Obviously it held absolutely no sacredness or genuine life commitment. I wouldn't try to read her mind or motives: you're always better off getting the facts. Sure, she may have been noncommittal but we don't really know what her mind state was or is. There's a lot of suspicious stuff but very little independent evidence. When buyers marry they aren't committing to 'stay together no matter what' they are committing to 'extraordinary care for life'. She may be leaving because she doesn't feel that commitment IS there. In which case you are addressing that. When you say you've always been committed, it's worth thinking - committed to what? Care or staying? Equally she could have remained uncommitted and available because of the memory of her affair - that's a strong possiblity and certainly the little evidence you've got points to it.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Do you think me folding 1000 cranes will have no effect and be a complete waste of time? Complete waste of time. Your actions told your fianc�e that you did not care about the marriage and did not believe in the vows you were making. That is still the case today and will be after 1000 cranes. She will just throw them away. thanks for your opinion. I take it you hold marriage as some kind of spiritual / religious sacred act? I don't. Obviously neither does my wife Folding the cranes is my way of saying sorry and showing i am prepared to take action. It also gives me something practical to channel my hope into. Without hope that something I do or say might make a difference then I would just give up.
Last edited by Dajavude; 07/29/15 07:39 AM.
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And I don't understand the paper crane thing. Too much effort for 1 (not 1000) micro transaction.
***EDIT*** Don't waste your time on one 'big' thing, but use it for lots of small (and meaningful) things.
***EDIT*** The cranes were important to her. Me not participating enthusiastically, and in fact being grumpy and obnoxiously deriding their value, communicated a selfishness and a lack of care for something important to her. Do you think me folding 1000 cranes will have no effect and be a complete waste of time? See, you know her better than we do but it wouldn't have a big effect on me. First off, grand gestures do very little to demonstrate the type of daily change and care a woman needs. They do express an 'I'm serious and will do what it takes' message, so I wouldn't rule them out completely. I just wouldnt want to see a reminder of an unenthusiastic decision that didn't work very well. The reason you were grumpy and uncooperative were because you didn't want to do it. That's fine. You can't spend your life continuing to agree to do stuff you dislike. It's better if you just say no, and brainstorm alternatives with your wife. I don't think your error was agreeing to the cranes and failing to hide your lack of enthusiasm. I think it was failing to be honest and just say no. Failing to come up with genuine enthusiasm for an alternative. Confidence and care involve just saying no. Sometimes a cheerful no is better than a yes with the grumps.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Commitment: First, a marriage is a permanent relationship (as long as you both shall live). Second, it is sexually exclusive (forsaking all others be faithful). And third, it is a relationship of extraordinary care (love, comfort, honor, and keep in joy and in sorrow, in plenty and in want, in sickness and in health) Is 1000 cranes a realistic demonstration of the type of care she can expect in marriage. Maybe, only you can say what genuinely makes you happy. When it comes to making marriage fulfilling for a wife, the "when mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" approach dominates the thinking of many husbands. In this time-honored line of attack, a husband simply does whatever his wife wants, in the hope that he'll at least have peace and quiet. But peace and quiet doesn't turn out to be that easy. In fact, the more a husband reinforces a wife's "ain't nobody happy" part of the equation, the more skilled she becomes in making him miserable.
In many if not most cases, this "give her whatever she wants" approach to problem solving begins during courtship. In an effort to win her heart, he showers her with proof that he's the right one for her. No one will ever care for you the way I will. Then when she finally says, "I do," he's created a precedent. For a while, he tries to maintain that precedent, but one morning he wakes up to face the realization that while she gets pretty much whatever she wants, he's left with little to show for his effort. His wife might like being able to get her way, but he's getting nothing in return.
In the beginning, he's willing to lose so that she can win. But eventually he expects her to do a little losing so he can win once in a while. When that's not forthcoming, at least to his satisfaction, he tries to win without her consent by making decisions independently. That's another win-lose goal.
My goal for husbands who want to make their wives happy is for them to limit their choices to win-win solutions to all marital conflicts. And I put a great deal of effort into helping them learn to achieve that objective. Why just husbands, you may ask? Why not put equal effort into helping wives? Well, I'd like to be able to put equal effort into helping both spouses, but I usually find myself focusing most of my attention on husbands because they're the ones who resist finding win-win solutions the most. Women usually seem to see the wisdom of it almost immediately, while it usually takes men a while longer to catch on.
So convincing a husband that he should always strive for win-win solutions to marital conflicts is my first and most important step in helping him learn to make his wife happy. Even when she gets her way in a win-lose solution, it's not necessarily a happy outcome for her because she knows that he wasn't happy making her happy.
Cheerfulness in giving isn't something we can force ourselves to do, and we certainly shouldn't fake it. Instead, we should discover ways to do things for each other in marriage that creates genuine cheerfulness for both spouses.
Last edited by indiegirl; 07/29/15 07:54 AM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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thanks for your opinion. I take it you hold marriage as some kind of spiritual / religious sacred act? Not at all and before discovering MB, I thought exactly as you do now. I don't. Obviously neither does my wife Hang on, isn't that incredibly disrespectful? You have no idea what your wife actually feels. Folding the cranes is my way of saying sorry and showing i am prepared to take action.
It also gives me something practical to channel my hope into. Without hope that something I do or say might make a difference then I would just give up. When my first marriage was failing, XH would show up every evening with flowers. It got to the point where I think if I saw another flower, I would throw up. It felt to me as if the flowers were his way of avoiding the real work of building a relationship of extraordinary care. Have you read any of Dr Harley's books?
3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
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It also gives me something practical to channel my hope into. Without hope that something I do or say might make a difference then I would just give up. What are her top needs? What are her goals in life? What delights her?
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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I can find no evidence of a present relationship with OM. Is she still emailing with him?
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thanks for your opinion. I take it you hold marriage as some kind of spiritual / religious sacred act? Not at all and before discovering MB, I thought exactly as you do now. I don't. Obviously neither does my wife Hang on, isn't that incredibly disrespectful? You have no idea what your wife actually feels. Folding the cranes is my way of saying sorry and showing i am prepared to take action.
It also gives me something practical to channel my hope into. Without hope that something I do or say might make a difference then I would just give up. When my first marriage was failing, XH would show up every evening with flowers. It got to the point where I think if I saw another flower, I would throw up. It felt to me as if the flowers were his way of avoiding the real work of building a relationship of extraordinary care. Have you read any of Dr Harley's books? Honestly, I am not finding your input helpful. You haven't read my post from start as you would know the answer to the last question. If you have some wisdom you would like to pass on I would really appreciate that. Criticising my efforts out of context to my story is not helpful to me.
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It also gives me something practical to channel my hope into. Without hope that something I do or say might make a difference then I would just give up. What are her top needs? What are her goals in life? What delights her? Time, family commitment, affection, admiration, appreciation, gifts. Her career is very important to her. She self actualises by running - has completed a 1/2 marathon and i think she would like to achieve doing a full one. Looking after her boys is also primary. Gifts, people doing things for her without being asked. All of the top things are whatbI tried for two weeks that drove her out of the house and into conflict with me over the cars, no communication etc. i have been focussing on trying to interact and spend time with stepson but i have limited opportunity there. Hence the cranes seemed like a good use of rime because she just rejects every other direct overture.
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I can find no evidence of a present relationship with OM. Is she still emailing with him? I don't have access to emails anymore but I know she told me he forwarded my email that I sent him. I have been debating whether to call him.
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thanks for your opinion. I take it you hold marriage as some kind of spiritual / religious sacred act? Not at all and before discovering MB, I thought exactly as you do now. I don't. Obviously neither does my wife Hang on, isn't that incredibly disrespectful? You have no idea what your wife actually feels. Folding the cranes is my way of saying sorry and showing i am prepared to take action.
It also gives me something practical to channel my hope into. Without hope that something I do or say might make a difference then I would just give up. When my first marriage was failing, XH would show up every evening with flowers. It got to the point where I think if I saw another flower, I would throw up. It felt to me as if the flowers were his way of avoiding the real work of building a relationship of extraordinary care. Have you read any of Dr Harley's books? Honestly, I am not finding your input helpful. You haven't read my post from start as you would know the answer to the last question. If you have some wisdom you would like to pass on I would really appreciate that. Criticising my efforts out of context to my story is not helpful to me. I've had a similar experience to living well though. I wanted my ex husband's time and to be taken on dates at the weekends. He'd ignore small opportunities and after ages went by he'd take me on a grand gesture date. Something too expensive to be repeated every week. Grand gestures sometimes suggest 'don't expect this very often'. It also gives me something practical to channel my hope into. Without hope that something I do or say might make a difference then I would just give up. What are her top needs? What are her goals in life? What delights her? Time, family commitment, affection, admiration, appreciation, gifts. Her career is very important to her. She self actualises by running - has completed a 1/2 marathon and i think she would like to achieve doing a full one. Looking after her boys is also primary. Gifts, people doing things for her without being asked. All of the top things are whatbI tried for two weeks that drove her out of the house and into conflict with me over the cars, no communication etc. i have been focussing on trying to interact and spend time with stepson but i have limited opportunity there. Hence the cranes seemed like a good use of rime because she just rejects every other direct overture. If you get something out of it, then it won't be time wasted. Again you know her best. A wife in withdrawal tends to be highly suspicious and consider most gestures fake though. The best thing is consistency and persistence. Giving her the impression you're not going anywhere, and if she hits a life bump or feels lonely she need only turn to you. She's going to reject you as much as possible to test your resilliency. If she's in withdrawal.
Last edited by indiegirl; 07/29/15 12:35 PM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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You want to meet her emotional needs. I think folding 1000 cranes will be a complete waste of time and paper, unless paper cranes are top of her emotional needs. Affection is sure to be one of her top emotional needs, and affection is symbolic acts of care, like this.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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A few paper cranes a day as an affectionate gesture, while working the rest of the program, might become a very meaningful thing for her.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I want her to feel safe to return to the house.
He first husband didn't accept relationship ending and during a visit by her to their house to collect the boys she was tied up and badly injured in an assault where he eventually killed himself.
She is going to be hyper sensitive to any behaviour by me that suggests any kind of mental agitation or instability. Hence why my positive pursuit and affectionate overtures seemed like denial and agitated her.
Is pursuing her and having her never return to the house better ? My instinct tells me not. My instinct was to tone down my behavior the day she decided to leave but I was swayed by Marcos to never stop.
Marcos' enthusiasm and personal success is very persuasive.
Last edited by Dajavude; 07/29/15 12:44 PM.
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Something you might consider is giving her 3-4 cranes a day for a year ... You'll make the affection lovebank deposits, but over time to show stability and commitment.
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I'd keep after it. I'd keep persistently folding cranes and keep wooing her and keep inviting her to spend time with me and attempting to have non-threatening conversations with her.
She can decide for herself if it feels unsafe or not, and she can easily put a stop to it any time she decides to do that.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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