x2

1. She wanted to separate and now I am going to just do as I darn well please. She can't complain because she is the one who wanted this!
2. Money is more important than my wife's happiness or my marriage's success. And I have NO idea how much divorce will cost, I think saving some bucks on dental work is actually a more financially sound decision than saving my marriage.
3. Despite the many, many MANY conversations about not seeing my family, I am just going to go ahead and do it any way. Because that is more important than my marriage.
4. I love these people more than I love my wife.
5. I actually put my wife's happiness so far down the totem pole, I am going to do something that I know will hurt her FOR FURNITURE.
6. Even though there are numerous dentists I could get my dental work done with, I am going to choose the one dentist that will further damage my marriage and hurt my wife.

OK, unwritten, I hear your point.

I just don't see where/why it has to be either/or situation.

Where does my agreement, let alone enthusiastic agreement come into play in any of this? (Recall, I've been relatively enthusiastic for 5-8 years. So that affects my current perspective and enthusiasm.)

Thanks,
Remark

Remark,

Do you understand that the action you are talking about hurts your wife? If your spouse asks you to stop doing something that hurts her/him, which leads to further damage to your marriage, you do not need to be enthusiastic about discontinuing the behavior.

If you were hitting her in the head and she asked you to stop, would you be asking them same question about being enthusiastic? That is basically what you are doing, except that every time you talk to, talk about talking to or seeing your family, or try to convince her you are right and she is wrong regarding your family, you are hitting her in the love bank. Every time you do it I can all but guarantee she is thinking something along the lines of, "I'm not first in his life, I'm never going to be first in his life, he loves his family more than he will ever love me, why am I with someone who will never put me first?" Do you want her to stop feeling that way?

You can worry about an enthusiastic agreement regarding your family after you have filled her love bank to the romantic love threshold, and she is feeling safe and secure in her #1 position in your life.

You've probably read most articles on POJA, but it can't hurt to read them again.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5027_qa.html

g2s,

What you said makes sense, and reconciles to my experience.
And, yes, I've read much ( I think all ) on POJA that there is on the forum.

Thanks,
Remark

OK, I understand that, too.

I just don't get how people can 'abandon family members like that.

Meanwhile, W and I have had this exchange all morning, and she asked me to post it. (The following is just part of it.)

Remark (H): Scaling them back out of our lives.
JD2D (W): What complaint of mine did this address?
Remark: From my perspective, it minimized your discomfort, short of not seeing them altogether.
JD2D: How are YOU able to evaluate MY discomfort?

Remark: Certainly not talking about you the way I did prior to 8 years ago.
JD2D: Completely unrelated to how much/how often you see/talk to them.

JD2D: What problem are you addressing by seeing them less?has changed in that 5-8 years)
Remark: Not doing all of the traveling and expense.
JD2D: What traveling/expense did they incur the last 8 years, such that we weren't incurring all of it?
Remark: Well, they incur cost when they hosted (food) . They did come down here for our daughter's wedding.

Remark: Not putting you through all of that discomfort and trauma.
JD2D: So "discomfort and trauma" is fine on a lesser scale? Remark: Sure. If I don�t like to garden, gardening less is certainly an appealing alternative. If you don�t like something, isn�t doing it less a viable alternative?

JD2D: Please post this simple exchange (the prior three sentences, and perhaps explaining that this is why "less" is your solution) on the forum. I can't teach you what's wrong with this philosophy.

So, instead of just stopping the behavior, you have decided you will continue to hurt her by trying to convince her to accept what you know will cause "trauma and discomfort".
You have just said to her "I don't care that it causes you pain, and you should be ok with it because it is not as much pain as I could be inflicting on you

If I was hitting you in the foot with a hammer every 5 seconds, but switched it to every 15 seconds, would that be an okay alternative for you or would you still have a bruised sore foot? Asking the one you love to endure pain for your profit is called sacrifice.

I agree that the LB need to stop, but you also need to try putting in deposits....I believe Marcos use to leave sweet post it notes even when she ripped them up.

Remark, we've been over and over this with you.

Even if you feel this way, don't express it if you want to keep your marriage, because it's disrespectful to your wife. It's that simple.

You don't have to get it. Just keep your mouth shut and do what needs to be done if you want your marriage.

The family members are fine. They are grown and can and should take care of themselves. It's easy. And if they want to continue the relationship instead, they can stop being disrespectful jerks. It's easy!

Remark,

the problem I see, which makes me think unnice thoughts about you, is, that you have spent last month with acquaintances/family members who happened to be in town, spent time totally without urgence renovating the appartment. You have spent hours and hours on things that do not matter in the long run, while your wife is divorcing you because of neglect and a wrecked marriage.

You have spent no time on luring your wife into nice outings with you and to top it off, where not only planning to visit your brother, but have also been planning to drive for hours to visit your family and spend time with them and hacked out a plan for furniture for your wicked bachelor pad.

In my opinion (DJ coming right there), based on results, you have no intention of saving your marriage or you would.
You don't want to.
I do not respect that and the only reason I can think of, is that you have alternative future plans.

I'm saying it again, if someone would be paying you a billion dollars to save your marriage, you would have been able to find some time with her.

Blah, blah, blah fix my wife so I can do whatever I want.

(Your very first post all over again)

deafening silence on the Remark front...

No good news, no successes to report. Only failures.
Thanks, Remark

Failures are learning experiences. Every failure is on step closer to succes if you keep at it.

People who do nothing wrong are probably doing kust that: nothing.
Tell us about the attractive, cannot refuse, date proposals you made to your wife.

What can I do to improve my communication and communication endurance skills? JD2D can spend entire days sitting in front of each other and have nothing productive come of it. I'm thinking I need to re-read (and apply) the chapter in He Winds, She Wins on negotiation skills.

And, that was not an indictment against JD2D. It was statement of fact and I know I am at least 50% of that equation.

Remark

What would you like to communicate to your wife? Your non-verbal communication has told your wife that spending time with your family is more important than your marriage. With that in mind, reading "He wins, She wins" might be a very good read (even if you only read the title).

You don't have to negotiate anything with her, she is divorcing you.
The only chance you have to be anything to her in the future is to win her back first. Make love bank deposits first and spend enjoyable time together without talking about problems first.
After you have fallen in love again, you can think about negotiating.