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I will try to be brief. First background then question:
I'm the Wife in a 30+yr marriage. Homemaker for last 10+ yrs but with work experience. One grown dau married with 5yr old granddau. I keep the grandau while the "kids" work. We are very close and I treasure our time together.
I've read many books on marriage and tried for YEARS to help make ours better. I am DONE. DONE. DONE. Verbal abuse and manipulation and his refusal to get counseling have taken it's toll and I struggle with depression. If it weren't for God's love and my convictions, I wouldn't be here now.
We are both Christians. He's on the church board. He provides a good living (which takes up MUCH of his time and takes a toll on his health) and does "nice" things for me (like offer to fix breakfast etc) but is seldom physically affectionate and has ignored my statements for years regarding my need for his attention, time, etc. He offered minimal apologies for his angry outbursts (yelling and insulting me) but nothing more. After the last one he called me when he would normally be sleeping and told me God woke him up and told him to apologize. (He had told me to just leave and find someone else.) That was a wonderful breakthrough I though but there's really been no change so another outburst afterwards was the last straw. This was a month or two ago. I've been distant to avoid his anger. I've promised myself it will not happen again...and if it does I will remove myself immediately from his presence.
I have taken good care of myself and am told I'm attractive. I've worked on myself character wise to be sure I'm being reasonable and using the right methods to talk things out. He just uses everything I say against me. I have apologized for things I've done that hurt him and done my best to avoid doing those things in the future. He seems bitter and unforgiving and has a wall built around him that I've given up getting him to take down. I no longer desire to be around him or talk to him due to dread of having to deal with his anger. He does seem to be happier, and less angry when I don't speak to him much. (I'm not giving the "silent treatment" but making small talk as with any other casual friend or asking easy yes/no questions about necessary things.)
I have read MB's material in the past and tried to get him to do it with me. No go. Recently I read about plan A and B. I feel like I've tried plan A and am ready for plan B. (Leaving.) I don't really want a divorce but am so ready to be free from this dread and sadness and loneliness.
HOWEVER, if I get a job and move out, I won't be able to care for my granddaughter. This is very important for me and I know it is for Hub as well. (He told me he didn't want me working so I could be free to care for her.) I could possibly work weekends to bring in some cash but it wouldn't be enough for me to afford housing and such. I also don't want to ruin us financially.
SO the big question....is it unreasonable of me to think I could live on site (we have 20+ acres) in my own cabin and thus be separated from him? (We already plan to build one so we have a home that's paid for.) Should I still cook for him, do his laundry, shop for groceries and household items and keep the finances? Should I use my sewing machine, washer/dryer, fridge that are in the "main" house? What about keeping the kiddo? I don't want to upset the routine too much for her sake.
What about transportation and living expenses? I know the more I think about it the more it doesn't sound like leaving....but then maybe it would be enough to wake him up and get him to really work on the relationship? (I wouldn't agree to move back in until we'd been in counseling a while and made sure we were on the right track to a healthy marriage.) If not, I'd feel as though I'd done what I could. I really don't want a divorce but simply MUST find a way out of this stress.
Meanwhile, I'm trying reduce what I own, selling equines and thinning out my clothes and such to make it easier to manage through a transition.
I considered a counseling appointment with MB but at $225 per session I was wondering how many it would take. Also doubted how much it could help since he refuses to go with me.


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Welcome to MB.

Have you seen this?

What to do with an Angry Husband


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Separating by moving to another location on the same property, and maintaining the status quo of chores, will not work. You are right, it is not really separation at all.

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You do need to seperate if your husband refuses to end his abuse. Surely this is not the environment you want to raise your granddaughter in, or the relationship model you want to expose her to.

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ShineOn Offline OP
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Thank you BrainHurts for the link. I don't know that I've followed that exact protocol but have been trying for years to make things better. I don't have the emotional energy now to keep trying. I find that when I'm "in the drivers seat" so to speak with the relationship...all that gets is blame. Since I'm the one trying and it's not working, I must be the one to blame. He has told me for years he will never trust me, never open to me, etc and I should have believed him when he said it. I asked him how we could have a relationship with an attitude like that and he admitted he didn't know. So it's been me trying to make a one sided relationship work and I can't take it anymore.

Unwritten, thank you for your reply. I really don't want to give up spending this time with my granddaughter. For various reasons....including the fact that her parents don't always choose good places for her to go when she's not with me.
My hub is not physically abusive...though the verbal abuse does make me fear that it could someday come to physical. Maybe it's just the devil or my weakness as a woman that makes me fear this?
As for a bad example to the granddaughter, it is a concern. So far, all I can remember is one instance when we were in town (the 3 of us) and deciding on a place to go out to eat. He was yelling and accusing when I questioned what I would get at a particular restaurant. I was diagnosed with gluten intolerance and he said it was a farce and that I was just putting on and would eat whatever I wanted. The granddaughter was only 3 or 4 at this time but knew there was trouble as I gave her paper and pen to draw with and she drew me a cute pic of a cat to cheer me.
Other than that, hub is more supportive with the grandkid than our own kid. He will tell her to thank me for the good supper and for caring for her and the like.
His abuse is very subtle most of the time. My eyes have been opened in recent years to even calling it abuse and I'm SURE he would think I was really blowing things out of proportion to use that word. He will put me in the middle and attempt to control by guilt. That nearly destroyed me before I figured out what was going on.
I was surprised by our pastor's wife's reply when I asked about the husband being responsible to teach the children respect for the wife. My husband didn't do this and my dau tends to be disrespectful in the same subtle but very hurtful ways. The pastor's wife said this is a form of abuse. I hadn't told her about the verbal abuse in our home and it was like a conformation that what I suspected was correct. Her reply came as a surprise because it seems that many times when a woman leaves her husband, those in my church (mostly men) see it as the woman leaving the faith and give little thought to what the husband did to cause it.
I could give many examples but not sure that's what's needed. I just feel that words will not make any difference now and I obviously don't have the right "tools" (Strength, knowledge, whatever) it takes to make things work. I also have no support group at all. Few friends and even fewer who want to "help" (get involved) with something like this.
I just don't want to admit that the price for my mental well being is to give up caring for my granddaughter. Perhaps I should go for a divorce and try to get enough in the settlement that only part-time work would pay the bills and allow me to stay home with her when she needs me.
The alternative is to stay in the current situation, do nothing and try to bear it but I can't take it anymore. frown I don't want to cheat and don't think I'd end my own life but I fear those things on the very low days.

I ask myself, how did I get here...to this place of such pain and sadness?! All I wanted was to love and be loved. To really live, experience life...the simple life with time together, fun outdoors working and playing together. I'm not afraid of hard work and don't expect life to be perfect. It really doesn't take a lot to make me happy but to deprive a wife of love and affection and make her fear to trust you is the cruelest thing ever.


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Sometimes it's hard to think through the pain but if I had good counsel and support perhaps I could work through this and the marriage would be saved. I originally mentioned MB counseling and asked if they will only work with the couple or if they will work with one but that question wasn't addressed. Does anyone have personal experience with one on one MB counseling services?


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Originally Posted By: ShineOn
Sometimes it's hard to think through the pain but if I had good counsel and support perhaps I could work through this and the marriage would be saved. I originally mentioned MB counseling and asked if they will only work with the couple or if they will work with one but that question wasn't addressed. Does anyone have personal experience with one on one MB counseling services?


No personal experience, but I have read many times that it is only for couples to share and join in together.

Sell it to her. Make it a desirable option with Great Rewards.

LTL

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LTL I am the "her" it's the him that won't agree.
I can't understand why only couples are counseled. That leaves it up to the one partner to get the other to agree. If communication was that good to begin with they wouldn't be in the pickle they're in. frown
The only thing I can think of is moving out, seeking a legal separation and telling him I'll move back if he agrees to counseling and participates for a certain time. 6 months or something. This will only work if he really wants me to move back in and isn't too prideful to admit that and agree to getting help.


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If he won't agree to meet your needs or work on your marriage, then it is not 'communication' that is lacking. It is an unwillingness on his part to create a marriage of extraordinary care that is the problem. You are correct that if you are married to a spouse that is refusing to meet your needs or provide you with care, your next option is to separate.

That does not even take into consideration the AO's and abuse you are enduring.

But whatever advice we give you, it is irrelevant if you are more concerned about providing daycare for your grandchild than being safe, happy and mental stable.

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Have you seen a Dr about your depression and suicidal thoughts? I would highly recommend you seeing a Dr and perhaps going on AD's if necessary. It will allow you to have a clearer thought process and follow a plan.

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Originally Posted By: ShineOn
Sometimes it's hard to think through the pain but if I had good counsel and support perhaps I could work through this and the marriage would be saved. I originally mentioned MB counseling and asked if they will only work with the couple or if they will work with one but that question wasn't addressed. Does anyone have personal experience with one on one MB counseling services?


Dr. Harley addressed this very question on his radio show a couple years ago.
Most people that contact him have a problem they are facing in their marriage. He never hears from the healthy marriages and when he does hear from a couple facing problems, its usually one of the spouses that contacts him and their partner is "reluctant" to change.

If you contact the coaching services, they could work with you to develop a plan to get your husband on board with MB. You can also follow the advice of many knowledgeable women on this board to get your husband on the ship.

You may need to eventually separate if he refuses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement or control his anger.

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Originally Posted By: LearnedTooLate
No personal experience, but I have read many times that it is only for couples to share and join in together.

It is not true that both spouses must participate in the telephone coaching service, if that is what the original poster meant by "counselling".

There are 3 ways of getting MB coaching direct from the Harleys:

1. You can write to Dr Harley at the radio show, and he will answer your email, including follow-up questions. It is common for only one spouse to seek help, and the participation of the other spouse is not required (although, obviously, it would be ideal). Dr Harley's wife Joyce invites some of the people who have written in to speak to them on the radio show, but you do not have to do this, and you will still get help from Dr Harley. Dr Harley is always keen to hear from the reluctant spouse, and he and Joyce will encourage you to seek their participation, but this often does not happen, and help is still effective. This is free.

Many people write to Dr Harley with no intention of going of the show, and he answers their questions without reading the email on the show. This, as I said, is free, and does not require the other spouse to participate.

2. You can pay for telephone coaching with one of Dr Harley's children, who run the telephone service; his daughter Dr Jennifer Chalmers, or his son Steve Harley. You cannot speak to Dr Harley himself via this method. Again, it is common for only one spouse to use this service. The whole point is that they are often trying to get help with a withdrawn spouse, who by definition is not interested in working on the marriage. Jennifer and Steve will usually make suggestions to get the other spouse on board, but they will coach one spouse for as long as necessary. The service is expensive, at about $200 per hour, but it is designed to change behaviour and be effective on the marriage as quickly as possible - hence its description as "coaching" and not "counselling". The goal is not to talk for years on end, but to act, quickly, on the marriage.

3. Finally there is the online course. This is the Home Study course, which is designed for couples to do by themselves (and which costs very little), but with the online version, the couple is assigned a coach who is trained and closely supervised by Dr Harley. The couple completes lessons from the Home Study course (e.g they work on eliminating a specific love buster that they identified as a problem, they report on their progress to each other and the coach, and when the problem is eliminated they move on to the next lesson). The online course costs about $1000 and is designed to take one year to complete. The couple is sent a wealth of Dr Harley's books, CDs and questionnaires as part of the package, and they are given lifelong access to the private forum on this site, where they can post questions directly to Dr Harley. While they are completing the course, they have access to their coach by telephone (as well as email).

The online course is the only coaching that must be done by both spouses. One spouse should not attempt to sign up to the course if they have an uninterested spouse who will not participate.


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His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Unwritten, thanks for the insight. You are right it is an unwillingness on his part...but he does say he doesn't understand the way I think and what I mean when I talk. (I think it's just more of his way of ignoring me and making excuses.)
What are AO's?
The statement about "daycare" seems a bit harsh. I don't simply provide "daycare". I read bible stories and teach my granddaughter to be a lady that loves God. She doesn't get this at home (or at least not much) and certainly wouldn't get it from any local daycare. She is only a child of 5 and requires nurturing and protection and guidance and love. I am an adult. I can endure more than she and will for her sake. I have learned more of how to stand up for myself (boundaries by cloud/townsend) and it has helped a lot but I still have bad days and I know that in the long run something must be done regarding my marriage. However, I want to do what's right in God's eyes and what is best not only for myself but for those around me as well. I don't want to be selfish or act rashly. (Thus my seeking Godly counsel.)
As for going on AD's I refuse to do so as they have many side effects and it does nothing to solve the real issues. I am not an immediate danger to myself. I'm human and it does cross my mind but I'm sure that happens to many people who never carry through with the thought.


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Quote:
Dr. Harley addressed this very question on his radio show a couple years ago................

If you contact the coaching services, they could work with you to develop a plan to get your husband on board with MB. You can also follow the advice of many knowledgeable women on this board to get your husband on the ship................

You may need to eventually separate if he refuses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement or control his anger.


Thank you Jedi for the info and hope.
I will follow up on it. It sounds like the exact type of support I'm needing.
About a year ago I engaged the services of a wonderful life coach to help me with personal character development. I was pleased with the progress I made and amazed that the minimal contact with her and her kindness, reassurance and direction made such a big impact on me. I was happier overall and could think more clearly.
Again thank you. I look forward to finding the help we need. I've got 30 years invested in this man....having married when we were both just kids (15 and 16) and nothing would please me more than to be happily in love with him and he with me.

Last edited by ShineOn; 08/27/15 12:31 PM.

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Quote:
There are 3 ways of getting MB coaching direct from the Harleys:


SugarCane.....THANK YOU! You've made it clear enough even I can understand.
This gives me such hope. I will follow up. :-)

Thanks to those who mentioned me in their prayers. Today I can feel He is with me. :-)


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Please click in this list:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html
If you see all the letters, you will find a bunch on controlling- abusive-angry spouses etc.
It will be good for you to see advice that has already been given for similar situation.

The Lord like us to deal with truths. The truth is that as much as you would "like" to have a wonderful relationship with your husband.... You can only do your part.
It really is up to him to step up and do what it takes.

Raising the bar actually helps him.
In truth you staying while he is angry etc rewards him for his AO (angry outburts).

Welcome and God bless!


BW-3 Kids
Sep:2014
Divorced

"I was not delivered unto this world in defeat, nor does failure course in my veins. I am not a sheep waiting to be prodded by my shepherd. I am a lion and I refuse to talk, to walk, to sleep with the sheep. I will hear not those who weep and complain, for their disease is contagious. Let them join the sheep. The slaughterhouse of failure is not my destiny.
I will persist until I succeed." Og Mandino
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Elaina7, thanks for the link. I will read and try to learn.
I have quit going places with him so he can't verbally attack me in the car. I don't think he realizes that's why but it sure has made my life happier.
I also leave the room or house if we're at home and he gets angry. I've also reduced my talk time on the phone to him to bare basics. He got mad at me at first (and probably still is) but I told him it's because you're always getting angry at me.
At this point, I prefer not to see him at all though I do like to know he's ok and don't mind cooking supper and doing my normal chores. I avoid being in the same room as him for the most part but in the mornings we make small talk a little. I don't want him to think I'm "angry" with him but I do want him to know there is something wrong. I no longer tell him I love him. I feel like I'm lying. I am committed to him but romantic love isn't there. (Kinda hard to want to hug on someone who has hurt you so many times and doesn't want to see it.)
He also seems to think I can live with just a kiss goodbye and a date night once every 3 to 6 months. NOT. Anyway...I'm just rambling now. I'm sure there are many other ladies who are going through the same thing. I'm sad they are but happy to find folks that understand and are willing to offer help. It is such a blessing. Praise the LORD!


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Oh...the link lists the love busters...dishonesty is an issue with my spouse too. Of course he gets angry for me calling it that but how can I trust someone who isn't truthful?


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Is he still having angry outbursts?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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BrainHurts, he had one AO after the phone call apology. After that I was done. Totally went into protective mode for my own sanity. This was maybe a month or two ago? I don't think the AO's are suddenly solved but as I've said, I limit conversations and spend very little time face to face with him sot here is little opportunity for any AO to happen.

Q: I've been spending a lot of time reading MB. Is there a way to search for threads where women find ways to persuade men to do counseling? I *think* the online course may work for us...IF he will be honest with himself and the person we're assigned to work with.
I'm thinking the way to get him to agree to the course may be that if he doesn't I'm moving out. This will take some time though as I have many things that need to be done, finding homes for animals, housing, etc. I'd like more input on this point though so hope to find in previous threads or start a new thread to learn more.

I'm a bit discouraged when I think back on it all. He is very deceptive and sees nothing wrong with it. I've always been the type to be totally honest and lay all my cards on the table. This has been used against me enough that I have learned to be more guarded.


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