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Originally Posted by happyheart
Baseball game sounds like fun. As was said, you will probably make more love bank deposits by doing new and exciting things, than by doing things you have always done.

HH,

That's a good thought. I'll work on some new ideas. I can be pleasant in many situations, activities, etc. and I am open to new things.

Frankly, right now, it is hard for me to fire up to do things with her because it's not so pleasant.

re: Labor Day..... The two reasons boating is on the tentative schedule is that we've only used it once this year, and whether you use it once or 100 times in a summer, you have to winterize it ($200 +). So, I'd like to amortize that $200+ over more than one use. Our son is itching to get back out on the water. And, every year for as far back as I can remember, we have gone boating with 4-5 other families over Labor Day.

Thanks,
Remark

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Originally Posted by doesnt_want_meFL
Originally Posted by DidntQuit
Remark: "She said I wasn't doing POJA. I asked "Why do you say that because I was exploring her thoughts and wishes on the topic."

This is a statement which may come off as debate/argument format instead of exploration format.

I can only guess that she sees your first approach to the topic as more of a Decision on your part instead of an Idea of something you might like to do, with you including her in the thought process in embryo rather than after you have decided and set it in motion.

Had you mentioned the idea to son and friends already?The son and I had discussed it, as he's wanted to take the boat out all summer. Friends, no. I had mentioned to JD2D asking if she'd like to go, and if so, where ( which of the two lakes we frequent?

It should have been, "How would you feel about You and Me going boating with son over Labor Day?"OK, I can see where those exact words may have helped the cause. Good idea.

Then, if she had been enthusiastic with that, you could have asked,
"How would you feel about inviting our friends?"
Thanks, Remark

I think DQ hit it on the head. This is exactly what my H sometimes does. We have had many a conversation about it, and his response is almost always "but if I didn't want your input, I wouldn't bring it up" or something that conveys that, and my response is "if you have already decided, what and how, it makes me feel like you just want me to say yes and I don't feel like I can actually say no. How would you feel about phrasing things differently from now on?" Perhaps this is how your wife feels.

I can see how the might help. I am courteous in asking, but somehow she's not feeling POJA or consulted first or something. But, no, I am not looking just for her 'yes'. If she's doesn't want to go, I don't want her to go. She doesn't want to do anything with me, period and it makes me doing something with her all the harder for me knowing that. I'm simply trying to figure a way to keep our boating tradition alive as son has the passion, and "amortize" the expense over more than one use this year.

Thanks,
Remark

Last edited by Remark; 09/01/15 07:47 AM.
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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Remark
She likes boating, but admittedly, it is more my thing. Recall, she wants to keep the boat until son leaves the roost and was upset when I thought we should sell it now because we only use it once or twice a year.
The point about selling the boat really has nothing to do with what I asked you.

What I'm trying to get you to establish is whether this would be a great day out, in her mind. I don't need to know that answer to that, but it's that sort of consideration you should be making when coming up with dating ideas.

I find it worrying that, having being encouraged by recent posts to try harder, the thing you suggest to your wife is something that you know is "your thing" rather than her thing, that you also enjoy. I find it worrying that your mind goes straight to a traditional activity - which means that you do this every year on this weekend, and so are NOT thinking of things to boost your marriage. It's disappointing that that you KNOW the boat has been the source of conflict in the past, and you know that an activity that involves friends is not a date, and yet you suggest this to your wife as a way of dragging your marriage out of its trough.

It seems to me that what you have really done, Remark, is to choose an activity of yours that you would have done anyway without your wife, and asked her if she wants to tag along, and called this an attempt at reviving the marriage.

It's less than half-hearted and it is a bit pathetic, really.

The fact that she said "go ahead and set it up with friends, and then I'll see" suggests to me that your wife isn't enthusiastic about this day out. Don't you see that? And therefore, doing as she said and setting it up is not your attempt to please her. It's disregarding her obvious lack of enthusiasm, while happily arranging something that you wanted to do anyway. If she goes along for the day you can put a tick on the "time with wife" chart, and if she doesn't, you can go anyway and have a great time doing what you love.

Really disappointing.
OK, I can see that.

First, yes, she considers the boat "mine", but it's difficult for me to say she doesn't enjoy it. She enjoys pulling other people around on inner-tubes and skis. It's been a big tradition with all our friends for 20 years. She skis less herself in recent few years. But she smiles a lot while we're doing it. So, it's tough for me to equate it her "not liking it".

Second, she started the one and only other boating activity this summer because our son wanted to go and they were initially going without me.

She doesn't want to do anything with me at this point and being subject her angst makes it difficult for me to want to engage and do anything with her, I'll be honest.

Summer is fast leaving us, and the son really wants to go. Those are my motivations, just like it was her motivation the other time we took the boat out.

We both have a responsibility to be appealing, pleasant to the other so that the other wants to be around us, right? (Be the favorite person to be with to quote Dr H)

Thanks, Remark

P.S. Sorry for the unintentional delayed addressing of your comments.





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Originally Posted by DidntQuit
I just reread my post and my written emphasis appears a bit harsh...so sorry.

Remark- Just remember that all of this effort will pay off one way or another.

I think that a call to Steve Harley would be super helpful for you right about now. I think that you could use some support and direction.

Didnt,
No offense taken. I appreciate your counsel.
How might it pay off "one way or another"? She's so withdrawn, well she just seems unreachable by me.

I think Steve is very good. I'll think about calling him again.

P.S. Sorry for the delayed response. I had a big financial decision to deal with last night that I have to decide on today. So, I spent last night evaluating it.

Thanks,
Remark

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Originally Posted by Remark
She doesn't want to do anything with me at this point and being subject her angst makes it difficult for me to want to engage and do anything with her, I'll be honest.
She needs to know she is safe around you. Your actions over a long period of time should express that you care for her and will make sure you won't gain at her expense.
Quote
We both have a responsibility to be appealing, pleasant to the other so that the other wants to be around us, right? (Be the favorite person to be with to quote Dr H)
You cannot control another person, you can only control yourself. If you don't want to be with her, sign the divorce papers and leave it all behind you. If you want to be with her, win her over. Start yesterday.

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Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Originally Posted by Remark
She doesn't want to do anything with me at this point and being subject her angst makes it difficult for me to want to engage and do anything with her, I'll be honest.
She needs to know she is safe around you. Your actions over a long period of time should express that you care for her and will make sure you won't gain at her expense.
Quote
We both have a responsibility to be appealing, pleasant to the other so that the other wants to be around us, right? (Be the favorite person to be with to quote Dr H)
You cannot control another person, you can only control yourself. If you don't want to be with her, sign the divorce papers and leave it all behind you. If you want to be with her, win her over. Start yesterday.

Thanks Goody,
I totally agree. I control myself only.
Winning her over sure sounds easier than it is.
Remark

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You haven't even tried to win her over...
You have not started showing extraordinary care.

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Remark - you actually have to DO SOMETHING to be able to say you tried. You have done nothing to win your wife and instead have taken numerous steps to alienate her.

You started this thread by pointing the finger at your wife and expecting her stop complaining. You are still in the say mode of thinking, but your style of expression has changed. You are still at square-one as far as MB is concerned.

If you don't care ( and you apparently don't because you continue to knowingly act in ways that hurt her), just get divorced.


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Originally Posted by Remark
P.S. Sorry for the delayed response. I had a big financial decision to deal with last night that I have to decide on today. So, I spent last night evaluating it.

Thanks,
Remark

I find this P.S. a little alarming Remark, did you spend the entire evening evaluating this "big financial decision" with JD2D?

Surely you know by now that no decision, let alone big ones you spend an entire evening evaluating, should be made without the POJA, and therefore no decision should be made without JD2D.


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Originally Posted by doesnt_want_meFL
Originally Posted by Remark
P.S. Sorry for the delayed response. I had a big financial decision to deal with last night that I have to decide on today. So, I spent last night evaluating it.

Thanks,
Remark

I find this P.S. a little alarming Remark, did you spend the entire evening evaluating this "big financial decision" with JD2D?

Surely you know by now that no decision, let alone big ones you spend an entire evening evaluating, should be made without the POJA, and therefore no decision should be made without JD2D.

d_w_m,
Well, it was a financial decision that involves how I pay her off in the $$$ I owe her and she wants. And, I had to communicate that decision this morning to two different lenders this morning. I talked a little about it with her Saturday. I attempted to talk with her about it this morning first thing. But was told make the decision on my own as I don't know how to do POJA. ( her words and you might agree. )

And, yes, it did take the bulk of the night and I fell asleep around 10:30. Then, I woke up a few hours later and stewed about it the rest of the night.
Thanks,
Remark

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I don't see how further disrespect addressed to Remark in this forum is productive.

Everybody keeps shaming Remark for not reading his wife's mind. It's exactly the wrong way to fix a marriage. All men do in response to this is hang their head in shame and say "I'm sorry; you're right, Dear. I should have known better. Whatever you want." They scold themselves and capitulate to their wives in a desperate hope to save their marriages. But it doesn't work and they don't learn anything from it.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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You are right markos, and Remark, my apologies if any of my comments are overly harsh or disrespectful. I think personally it is sometimes hard when it appears you are not using the wonderful advice the forum offers. I think everyone would agree that we just want your marriage to flourish.


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Originally Posted by coffeegirl
You haven't even tried to win her over...
You have not started showing extraordinary care.

Remark has been attempting to learn extraordinary care for a very long time, for very little reward. He has learned very little, and he is constantly abused in his marriage.

Remark's withdrawal indicates his exhaustion to me. He has been in Plan A for many months with very little payoff and this is the result.

He is worn out. I wonder if we should slap the hell out of him for that?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I think withdrawal (and divorce) is probably the appropriate response for both Remark and his wife. Neither is ready to eliminate love busters. Neither demonstrates extraordinary care. It may be time to let it go.

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by coffeegirl
You haven't even tried to win her over...
You have not started showing extraordinary care.

Remark has been attempting to learn extraordinary care for a very long time, for very little reward. He has learned very little, and he is constantly abused in his marriage.

Remark's withdrawal indicates his exhaustion to me. He has been in Plan A for many months with very little payoff and this is the result.


He is worn out. I wonder if we should slap the hell out of him for that?

The forum has "slapped the hell" out of his wife for being worn out...


😳 Have you been communicating with Remark off the forum? You seem confident that Remark has initiated plan-A behaviors? I haven't seen Remark describe any on his thread. I apologize. That would explain why Remark is get a pass and his wife is getting a tongue-lashing. Again, my apologies.

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Originally Posted by apples123
I think withdrawal (and divorce) is probably the appropriate response for both Remark and his wife. Neither is ready to eliminate love busters. Neither demonstrates extraordinary care. It may be time to let it go.

Absolutely.

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Remark has reached the point that he can go no further until his wife steps up and is willing to do her part.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

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Originally Posted by Prisca
Remark has reached the point that he can go no further until his wife steps up and is willing to do her part.

Right. But he reached that point without doing *anything* unless you know something that the rest of us and Steve Harley don't. She's not helping at all but he has not reported a single action that shows extraordinary care but he himself reports years of extraordinary care on the part of his wife. I'm completely puzzled by your reaction to this situation. Your story is such an inspiration. I didn't realize that you had 100% eliminated your lovebusters before Markos showed a single instance of extraordinary care. It's good information for me, actually considering my own marital difficulties. We've had 22 sessions with Steve and I have not been given that information (that a wife must pull her weight and 100% eliminate lovebusters in the face of relentless abuse and neglect before a husband can even begin to show any extraordinary care)

I'm not being sarcastic. I am going to talk to Steve about it next week.

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Yes, you should 100% pull your weight and not return the abuse you are receiving. You should also remove yourself from the situation, perhaps permanently.

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You can't make yourself be in love but you can avoid being a abuser.

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