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Tivona Offline OP
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I would like to get some clarification re exclusiveness during dating.

I have been aware of Dr Harley's material for a couple of years, and continue to come back to it as my point of reference. I think it is excellent.

I have spent many years alone having been extremely burnt in previous relationships.

On occasions I venture into the world of relationships but my experiences always end up being very brief (no longer than a couple of months and I am always the one to end them for various reasons.

Most recently I have had a month long 'relationship' with someone I have known for many years but had never met in person until the end of 2015. Even though there were numerous red flags from the get go, I fell passionately in love with him very quickly. He met my top five emotional needs in abundance despite it being obvious that he has the mentality and belief system of a relational freeloader. In truth I found him irresistible and having been on my own for a very long-time and having recently had some very painful news that left me feeling vulnerable, I took caution to the wind and allowed myself to be completely seduced by the experience. It is not something I wish to repeat any time soon as it ended very quickly after he showed me such severe lack of care over certain issues that I was actually stunned and extremely hurt. My own fault and I don't know what I was thinking or expecting.

To cut a long story short I have once again been extremely burnt by the experience and it has been a huge wake up call for me.

I have decided for the first time in my life that I will no longer give a man exclusive rights to my heart, mind, body and soul until they are showing me an extraordinary level of care and I am very committed to finding a person who I can have a passionate and romantic life-long partnership within the container of marriage.

I am more than aware I have an incredible amount to learn and I am also aware of some serious 'love busters' that I have and I am committed to getting a handle on these.

For the first time in my life I want to date. I have never dated before as I have always jumped into a relationship being someone's 'girlfriend' from the get go or having been a freeloader myself in my youth and through extremely low self-esteem just having sex.

I have read a great deal of Dr Harley's material in his books and also here on the website and forum.

I have read before that Dr Harley recommends going on thirty dates, and I am now more than willing to give this a try. My question is when does one offer a date exclusivity and how is this exclusivity defined?

I remember reading that even during Dr Harley and his wife's engagement Joyce went on some dates with other men and I am left a bit confused.

I know that one doesn't become a buyer until the moment of marriage, but is there a time, say if I meet someone that meets my top five emotional needs that I would offer them more exclusivity i.e. I would stop dating others.

Also what would be the difference between dating someone and being engaged to them.

I am open to learning everything I need to so that I can stop the pain and suffering I seem to experience whenever I enter into any form of intimate relationship with men.

I look forward to any help with this matter.



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Originally Posted by Tivona
I remember reading that even during Dr Harley and his wife's engagement Joyce went on some dates with other men and I am left a bit confused.

The Harley's don't recommend exclusivity until engagement is in place. Joyce did not date other men once they were engaged. Just my opinion, but I would consider an exclusive arrangement once an engagement has been discussed and agreed upon. If that arrangement is quickly followed by an actual engagement, then exclusivity should certainly be cemented.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Tivona Offline OP
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Hi MelodyLane,
that is very helpful thanks.

Ive just found the part about Joyce dating during their engagement:

PG 42 buyers, renters, and freeloaders
'In fact, during our engagement, Joyce actually dated another guy as a last fling. I was somewhat concerned that she might do the same after we were married, but she assured me that once her vows were said, she would not so much as look at another guy'

This is why I was confused. However it makes sense to me that until engagement I would not be exclusive. I truly belief this is the trap I have been falling into my whole relational life and it comes as a great relief that I do not ever have to do this again.

I have actually had quite a few marriage proposals over the last twenty years (and I was married in my early twenties although I didn't have a clue what marriage was about and was still a renter. It lasted only a couple of years). The proposals have generally come on the back of me ending the relationship and have felt like a desperate attempt on the man's part to grab my attention.

If I am dating a man and he is meeting my top five emotional needs, and he asks me to marry him and enter into engagement what kind of things should I be looking for before I would say yes?

I am sorry to ask such basic questions I am just on the back of being burnt right now and feeling a bit vulnerable.







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Tivona Offline OP
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also what kind of things would be discussed and agreed upon before engagement?

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I've heard the Harley's discuss that on the radio. Mrs. Joyce explained she didn't realize he was serious. She thought they were discussing something very distant and hypothetical.

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Tivona Offline OP
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apple123 I am confused by your comment. She didn't realise he was serious about what?

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Right now I am quite stunned at how ignorant I have been about love, relationships, dating etc.

I can't quite believe I have offered the men I have had brief flings with exclusive rights to my heart when none of them have ever offered me a level of care that has been even close to appropriate for that level of exclusivity.

It truly hurts my heart to think I placed such little value on myself.


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Originally Posted by Tivona
PG 42 buyers, renters, and freeloaders
'In fact, during our engagement, Joyce actually dated another guy as a last fling. I was somewhat concerned that she might do the same after we were married, but she assured me that once her vows were said, she would not so much as look at another guy'

This is why I was confused. However it makes sense to me that until engagement I would not be exclusive. I truly belief this is the trap I have been falling into my whole relational life and it comes as a great relief that I do not ever have to do this again.

Ok, I stand corrected, but I missed that paragraph. They DO NOT ADVOCATE DATING AFTER ENGAGEMENT so that is what you should do.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Tivona Offline OP
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Melodylane,
yes that makes perfect sense to me thank you for the clarification.
I will never offer myself exclusively to a man until after engagement.
Would the kind of discussions I would be looking to have pre engagement be things like how long we would be expecting the engagement to last? What we would be looking for in our exclusive engagement?etc
What is the difference between how we would act in an engagement over a marriage (other than sexual fulfilment if one believes in no sex until marriage)?
I know Dr Harley says that one is only a buyer after the marriage vows have been taken but I am guessing one would be looking to explore buyers beliefs and attitudes during engagement.



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Tivona Offline OP
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And I will not be looking to date after engagement.

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Tivona Offline OP
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The relief I feel to get this clarification is indescribable !!
Sorry to be so expressive about it but the recent pain I felt at giving my heart to this most recent man and offering him every part of me, which was immature and ridiculous I know, was so intense. It has truly been the wake up call I have needed and I made the commitment inside myself that I will never offer a man that level of exclusiveness for crumbs again. It's just I didn't have a clear awareness of where the boundaries were so this feels not only right to me but very clearly defined.

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Mrs. Joyce was 17. She said she didn't realize it was a serious proposal. She thought he was joking or speaking flipantly. The date was already scheduled a few days later.

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Originally Posted by Tivona
Most recently I have had a month long 'relationship' with someone I have known for many years but had never met in person until the end of 2015. Even though there were numerous red flags from the get go, I fell passionately in love with him very quickly. He met my top five emotional needs in abundance despite it being obvious that he has the mentality and belief system of a relational freeloader.

I know that one doesn't become a buyer until the moment of marriage, but is there a time, say if I meet someone that meets my top five emotional needs that I would offer them more exclusivity i.e. I would stop dating others.

Tivona,

From your recent dating experience you had someone who met your 5 top needs - and as you said it was obvious that he was not a good candidate for marriage.

Dr Harley often says that it should be logical/rational part in relationship. And you recognised that part was missing.

However, it's quite difficult for me to imagine that you can casually date 5 men in parallel and one of them would propose. I've heard from couple of men that they broke up when found out the woman was dating other guys.

My understanding is people usually date exclusively for some time before engagement.

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Tivona Offline OP
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Hi Aerith,

Melodylane has said that the Harleys do not recommend that someone becomes exclusive before engagement.

So is your understanding that people usually date exclusively for sometime before engagement based on your own opinion or what you believe the Harleys recommend?

I'm confused.

Like I have said I know I have a lot to learn. All I want to do right now is protect myself from any further heart pain by following a protocol that makes sense and works.

Not dating exclusively before engagement makes sense to me currently.

I would be more than willing to date different men and if one starts to show me extraordinary care I would of course be want to see them more than the others. But if we haven't reached a stage where we are actively and maturely expressing a possible engagement for a future marriage then wouldn't it be unwise of me to cut of from dating other men that might be the one I eventually go on to marry.

Don't get me wrong I see where you are coming from, and all my relational life (outside of my youth) I have given myself exclusively to a man from the get go and become their 'girlfriend'.

I was also thinking about what I remember Dr Harley discussing in his books about his and Joyce's relationship. I did get the distinct impression that they did date exclusively before they got engaged as I seem to remember Dr Harley saying Joyce broke up with him a couple of times and they started dating others.

So after reading your comment I'm still left a bit confused.
However I can see how not giving myself exclusively to any man before engagement could be a good thing. As long as I was honest and open about the relationship protocol I was following I can't see what harm it would do.

I wouldn't be interested in having sex with the men I am dating, so I think that could make quite a bit of difference.

I've been reading around some other material and I did come across this website yesterday that said the relationship protocol should go like this: dating (seeing lots of people and getting to know them)>courtship (choosing one of the dates to be exclusive with in preparation for engagement) > engagement (moving courtship onto a deeper level in preparation for marriage)> marriage (if engagement is successful).

I'm wondering if you are speaking about being exclusive in courtship?

Thoughts would be welcome.


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Tivona-

Have you thought about getting advice directly from Dr. Harley and Joyce about your situation?

For free advice, send your questions to:

mbradio@marriagebuilders.com





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Tivona Offline OP
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Thanks didn't quit.
I have written to Dr Harley from your suggestion.
I really would like some clarity re this situation and what would be the best dating/courtship/engagement to follow.

I truly couldn't bare anymore heart pain.
Like I said this has been the final wake-up call I have needed so that I can really learn how to progress forward.

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Originally Posted by Tivona
Thanks didn't quit.
I have written to Dr Harley from your suggestion.
I really would like some clarity re this situation and what would be the best dating/courtship/engagement to follow.

I truly couldn't bare anymore heart pain.
Like I said this has been the final wake-up call I have needed so that I can really learn how to progress forward.
Let us know when you hear back from Dr. Harley.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by Tivona
Hi Aerith,

Melodylane has said that the Harleys do not recommend that someone becomes exclusive before engagement.

So is your understanding that people usually date exclusively for sometime before engagement based on your own opinion or what you believe the Harleys recommend?

I'm confused.

Like I have said I know I have a lot to learn. All I want to do right now is protect myself from any further heart pain by following a protocol that makes sense and works.

Not dating exclusively before engagement makes sense to me currently.

I would be more than willing to date different men and if one starts to show me extraordinary care I would of course be want to see them more than the others. But if we haven't reached a stage where we are actively and maturely expressing a possible engagement for a future marriage then wouldn't it be unwise of me to cut of from dating other men that might be the one I eventually go on to marry.

Don't get me wrong I see where you are coming from, and all my relational life (outside of my youth) I have given myself exclusively to a man from the get go and become their 'girlfriend'.

I was also thinking about what I remember Dr Harley discussing in his books about his and Joyce's relationship. I did get the distinct impression that they did date exclusively before they got engaged as I seem to remember Dr Harley saying Joyce broke up with him a couple of times and they started dating others.

So after reading your comment I'm still left a bit confused.
However I can see how not giving myself exclusively to any man before engagement could be a good thing. As long as I was honest and open about the relationship protocol I was following I can't see what harm it would do.

I wouldn't be interested in having sex with the men I am dating, so I think that could make quite a bit of difference.

I've been reading around some other material and I did come across this website yesterday that said the relationship protocol should go like this: dating (seeing lots of people and getting to know them)>courtship (choosing one of the dates to be exclusive with in preparation for engagement) > engagement (moving courtship onto a deeper level in preparation for marriage)> marriage (if engagement is successful).

I'm wondering if you are speaking about being exclusive in courtship?

Thoughts would be welcome.

I am not quite sure what is the difference between dating and courting in modern world. What does courting include what dating doesn't?

You probably have read Dr Harley answer to email in MB Q&A section http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi5068a_qa.html

He said regarding dating 30 people:
"...if you find someone that knocks you off your feet before you reach the magic 30, don't feel compelled to continue dating. My point is that within those 30 people there is probably someone who you would find very compatible and who would know how to meet your emotional needs. If by the fifth date you've found that person, search no longer."




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Hi Aerith,
Thanks for digging that quote out.
I have to say I am really confused now.
Melodylane said the Harleys recommend not being exclusive until engagement.

This quote would suggest that if you are dating and meet a person who does 'it for you' that the search is over. SO then does that mean you would then start being exclusive?

This most recent guy I had a fling with met my top five needs abundantly hence falling head of heels for him. Yet he couldn't even use the word 'relationship' and it was obvious he had the belief system of a relational freeloader and just wasn't on the same page as me about what he wanted or what he could give, or wanted to give. He really wanted just an easy ride and couldn't and wouldn't discuss the depths of what we were creating. (so I guess on reflection maybe he didnt meet my top need for intimate conversation although we were able to converse on many things passionately in ways I rarely have with many people)

I believe he did feel very strong feelings for me but at the same time he didn't want any kind of 'pressure' and wanted nothing labelled or put in a box.

I guess this means in some way he didn't know how to meet my emotional needs properly. Maybe this is what Dr Harley is speaking about.

Maybe if I start dating and meet another guy who can meet my top five emotional needs AND offers me the care, protection and ability to be mature and discuss the concepts presented here then it would be ok to become exclusive with this person before engagement ???

I read the email question and answers and it would seem that the Harleys were exclusive when they were dating as Dr Harley says that Joyce would break up with him to date other men.

So I am still not very sure about the correct protocol to follow that will get me the results I am looking for which is a lifelong passionate happy marriage frown

It really feels to me as this isn't clearly defined and I would really love to know exactly what Dr Harley believes and suggests :-/

I would hate to meet a guy I really like and not offer him exclusivity during dating because we hadn't reached engagement
and mess it up.






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Tivona, it seems you are being so legalistic that you are missing the forest for the trees. The only criteria cannot just be meeting your needs expertly but must be a willingness to be married, among other things. For example, how does the person feel about the policy of joint agreement? How does the person feel about opposite sex friendships? How do they handle money? It seems like the best thing to do would be to rule out freeloaders early so you are not falling for them.

Quote
Maybe if I start dating and meet another guy who can meet my top five emotional needs AND offers me the care, protection and ability to be mature and discuss the concepts presented here then it would be ok to become exclusive with this person before engagement ???

righto! The goal with dating [or courting] is to find a suitable husband. When you are dating, the goal is to screen out those who will not be good candidates. If you find a great candidate who meets all of your criteria - and who is expected to propose - you could consider becoming exclusive. BUT...what if the person meets all your criteria and never proposes? In that case, you would be wasting your time in a nowhere relationship when you could be out dating.

Have you ever read the book "The Rules?" I got married before this book came out, but I used many of its rules without knowing how valuable it really was. The authors recommend not making yourself too available because it lessens your attractiveness.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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