Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 30 of 43 1 2 28 29 30 31 32 42 43
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
She needs to take these concerns to her daughter, not you. This is your WW's area of control.

How do I convince MIL to do that? I'm sure that's what WW claimed to her, that I would never get over being betrayed TWICE. I told her last night that I'm willing to work on it if WW is willing but she just thinks my heart is forever tarnished (never mind I did it 17 years ago!).

MIL is a key linchpin if I were ever to reconcile with WW. They talk several times a day. I don't think MIL was gaslighting me yesterday, I think she spoke the truth. So it is worth the effort to try to turn her again.

Show her HOW your heart can be changed. Print up the article and tell her if she is concerned that you will never get over it, that this is how it is done. The truth is that you will never get over it if she doesn't do these things.

People can and do get over this when these steps are followed. When a person is happy in the present and they are not being threatened by an affair, their mind does not go to the past; it stays in the present.

Your MIL obviously can't be convinced because you have not shown her a plan. I would take her the article on forgiveness and the extraordinary precautions checklist. Tell her "this is how it can be done." Also assure her that you are not interested in staying in bad marriage. You want to be happy and in-love.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
[
Most of the time she does not tell me her opinions on things (like the restaurant examples). Even on vacation destinations frequently she might grumble a bit but usually has a good time wherever I decide. She's not a decisive person and usually kicks the can down the road, waiting for me to decide. But I don't honestly think she can claim that's from my "controlling" nature.

This would result in a spouse feeling controlled when you made unilateral decisions. When that happens, she does feels controlled. My H is very indecisive, but we have learned to make joint decisions about which we are both enthusiastic. That way there is never any grumbling and if we make the wrong choice, one does not blame the other. It sounds like she did a lot of capitulating and sacrifice which does lead to resentment.

We can teach you how to negotiate in a way that protects your marriage when you reconcile.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
]
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
[
Most of the time she does not tell me her opinions on things (like the restaurant examples).

Can you give me an example of how this would play out?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
Another broad area of "controlling" that she complains about is my applying the tactics I learned from MB site: Exposure, talking to her friends, "making it so she has no friends," etc.

She complained about me asking "what have been up to today?" as tracking her now. She usually didn't tell me much before and now she complains that is "controlling."

But it is all post D-Day stuff.

None of this is control. Control is making her DO SOMETHING.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 65
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 65
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Yes you should continue to show affection. What exactly did you do to "control her?" Can you give a specific example?

Showing affection, telling her you love her is good. Groveling and begging is not good.

It's mostly Revisionist history centered around things that happened AFTER D-Day.

MIL said she complained to her about my tracking and spying. But MIL said she told WW it's 100% understandable, after all she violated my trust!

She complains about the money now, even though on D-Day she said she didn't "want my money." She filed the ex parte motion for an emergency hearing tomorrow to compel me to move back the assets to the joint account. She thinks I'm controlling her through not letting her have access to the money. But she doesn't realize it's mostly non-cash investments. Hopefully my lawyer can quash it tomorrow. This was a legal gambit dreamed up my her lawyer that is coming out of left field and not kosher. Hopefully the judge won't allow it.

Other than that I don't really think she can say I "control" her. I read somewhere that SAHM and others do feel "controlled" just because they are almost totally reliant on the husband's income. Most of the time she does not tell me her opinions on things (like the restaurant examples). Even on vacation destinations frequently she might grumble a bit but usually has a good time wherever I decide. She's not a decisive person and usually kicks the can down the road, waiting for me to decide. But I don't honestly think she can claim that's from my "controlling" nature.
Your WW may feel that she has no voice in making any money related decisions as you earn most of money.
One of my friend is SAHM and her husband makes all major decisions. Just an example - she wanted Mitsubishi and he wanted Toyota for her... Guess what- she drives Toyota now and says his money, his choice.

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
]
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
[
Most of the time she does not tell me her opinions on things (like the restaurant examples).

Can you give me an example of how this would play out?

Usually a guessing game:
"What would you like for dinner?" me
"I dunno" WW
"How about XYZ?"
"no"
"How about ABC?"
"no, too smelly"
"Ok, where do you want to go?"
"somewhere not smelly"
...???

Or, "Where should we go for vacation this summer?"
"I dunno"
"How about ABC?"
"I guess"
"Or XYZ?"
"Ok"

etc.




Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
Originally Posted by Aerith
Your WW may feel that she has no voice in making any money related decisions as you earn most of money.
One of my friend is SAHM and her husband makes all major decisions. Just an example - she wanted Mitsubishi and he wanted Toyota for her... Guess what- she drives Toyota now and says his money, his choice.

Yes, very true. Except I took her to the lot and I let her choose the car a couple years ago (I'm driving the clunker! I always get her the newer car.) She and I agreed on the car and she picked it out herself, definitely a POJA decision. We both drive the same manufacturer of cars, which she likes.

She didn't want to make any of the financial or investing decisions as she knows I'm very good at it (I showed her how much our portfolio has grown every year). In general she charges whatever she wants every month on the credit cards and it just gets auto paid by our bank. I usually have her check the statements to make sure there is no fraud, and I usually don't complain because she is fairly responsible (except for shoes, purses, and Nordstrom). She has a Nordstrom card which she uses and paid out of our joint account and I don't bother looking at it (didn't want to pick a fight).

Except now of course, she's trying to get at the money!


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
]
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
[
Most of the time she does not tell me her opinions on things (like the restaurant examples).

Can you give me an example of how this would play out?

Usually a guessing game:
"What would you like for dinner?" me
"I dunno" WW
"How about XYZ?"
"no"
"How about ABC?"
"no, too smelly"
"Ok, where do you want to go?"
"somewhere not smelly"
...???

Or, "Where should we go for vacation this summer?"
"I dunno"
"How about ABC?"
"I guess"
"Or XYZ?"
"Ok"

etc.

We used to do the same thing until my H was sold on the idea that we should not do anything unless we were BOTH enthusiastic about it. He then stopped making reluctant/sacrificial agreements. My H gave answers like that when he was not enthusiastic about doing the proposed thing. When he DID feel like going on vacation, he would come up with ideas and we would brainstorm various plans. But when he really didn't want to go on vacation, he would give me vague answers like that. Now he just says "I don't feel like going on vacation this year" and we drop it. People who are enthusiastic don't typically give vague answers like that.

Restaurants used to be a major source of contention until we both agreed [after deciding to go out and eat] that we would not choose a restaurant unless we were both enthusiastic about the selection. We now have a short list that we consult which makes negotiating much easier.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This would result in a spouse feeling controlled when you made unilateral decisions. When that happens, she does feels controlled. My H is very indecisive, but we have learned to make joint decisions about which we are both enthusiastic. That way there is never any grumbling and if we make the wrong choice, one does not blame the other. It sounds like she did a lot of capitulating and sacrifice which does lead to resentment.

We can teach you how to negotiate in a way that protects your marriage when you reconcile.

There are some areas where we have disagreements. For example, she doesn't like the gardener and wants to fire him and get a new one. At first I wanted to keep him since he's been doing our house for over a decade. Then I said, that's fine, can you go find one that you like? She never did, it turned out she wanted me to do it (never mind she works 15 hours a week, and I'd have to take off work to do this).

Or renovation of the house. She wanted to redo our kitchen. I said let's redo our bath first, it's more useful. Let's get some quotes and draw up a budget. So she agreed, she talked to one guy but she never follows up on it. Nothing gets done for two years. I asked her what happened? After D-Day she said she was waiting for me to do it... Grrr....!

I don't think it's a control issue here, but rather lack of clear communications and honesty. It has been a guessing game for me for a lot of these things.


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 2
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,788
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
We used to do the same thing until my H was sold on the idea that we should not do anything unless we were BOTH enthusiastic about it. He then stopped making reluctant/sacrificial agreements. My H gave answers like that when he was not enthusiastic about doing the proposed thing. When he DID feel like going on vacation, he would come up with ideas and we would brainstorm various plans. But when he really didn't want to go on vacation, he would give me vague answers like that. Now he just says "I don't feel like going on vacation this year" and we drop it. People who are enthusiastic don't typically give vague answers like that.


Gosh, talk about pulling hen's teeth! Because negotiating is new for my DH, we spent most of last summer talking about where to go on holiday. The place we eventually chose together was totally brilliant but it was so hard to find out from him what kind of holiday he would enjoy. He just could not tell me. Many years of reluctant agreement/sacrifice had done that.

But the good news is that each time you have a successful negotiation, it makes the next negotiation not just easier but the result better too!

This year's decision took just one hour :-)


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 435
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 435
***EDIT***

Last edited by Mizar; 02/26/16 08:01 AM. Reason: TOS: non-MB advice
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
Originally Posted by typicalman
***EDIT***

Yes, I have read about codependency. Unfortunately, with a divorce lawsuit and motion staring at me tomorrow morning, I'm in no position to be fixing the balance right now!

I have always supported WW working full time. However, I really think I spoiled her as she cut her hours more and more over the years. In the beginning it was because our DS was just born, but as he progressed through the grades she just said she didn't want to work as many hours. In the end, she ended up with just 15 hours even though we have a full-time after school program that covers DS from 8a-6p daily. I always thought it was healthier for her to at least do some work rather than being an entirely SAHM.

Also, she did have free rein over the checkbook. She wrote most of the bills to pay checks (which is only about 5 a month since most things are electronic now). I never complained about her spending ever since it was an issue for her first EA 17 years ago. I just let her spend what she liked, and she was pretty responsible about it most of the time.

Last edited by Mizar; 02/26/16 08:02 AM. Reason: removing quote

Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
Originally Posted by typicalman
***EDIT***

Yes, I have read about codependency. Unfortunately, with a divorce lawsuit and motion staring at me tomorrow morning, I'm in no position to be fixing the balance right now!

I have always supported WW working full time. However, I really think I spoiled her as she cut her hours more and more over the years. In the beginning it was because our DS was just born, but as he progressed through the grades she just said she didn't want to work as many hours. In the end, she ended up with just 15 hours even though we have a full-time after school program that covers DS from 8a-6p daily. I always thought it was healthier for her to at least do some work rather than being an entirely SAHM.

Also, she did have free rein over the checkbook. She wrote most of the bills to pay checks (which is only about 5 a month since most things are electronic now). I never complained about her spending ever since it was an issue for her first EA 17 years ago. I just let her spend what she liked, and she was pretty responsible about it most of the time.
You are responding to a lot of personal philosophy (in the post that was edited away - I saw it) that has nothing to do with anything that Dr Harley advises.

Joyce Harley was a SAHM when her kids were young, because that is what suited the family at the time. From Dr Harley's description of how desperate she was to get out on dates with him, and how much they spent on babysitters making sure that UA time outside the home happened for 15 hours every week, Joyce did not always love being at home with tiny children. She saw their dates as an escape from some of that tedium and frustration.

Dr Harley never saw his financial support at that time as "spoiling" Joyce, and he never argued that it would have been "healthier" for her to have stopped being a SAHM. Your attitude in that statement is in fact a very worrying disrespectful judgement, and, ironically, could be argued to be controlling. You are telling us what you thought she should have done, knowing that she did not want to work as many hours; she made that clear. Yet, rather than value her point of view, you belittle it by saying "even though we have a full-time after school, program" etc. Have you any understanding of why your wife wanted to look after her child herself? Would she have been happy subjecting a very young child to such a long day in institutional care, where he would be looked after by strangers?

And you are responding to a view (edited away) that argued that when a man is the breadwinner, he is meeting more of the wife's needs, and she is meeting fewer of his. That view is not one that Dr Harley would endorse at all. That view also said that the wife who feels she is not meeting her husband's needs equally (because his role as the breadwinner somehow makes him better at meeting her needs than she is at meeting his), would feel resentful. The wife would feel resentful that she is not meeting his needs. That is nonsense. In Dr Harley's argument, if resentment is felt, it is by the person who needs are not being met.

This is an example of what I mean when I said the other day that you are mixing the kinds of everyman philosophy, written on free-for-all websites, with MB. I don't know where that view about a SAHM being bad for the marriage comes from, but it does not come from Dr Harley, whose advice we have agreed to give on this forum.

Your view of your wife's contribution as a SAHM is not very respectful (along with other things you have said about her), and if she sensed this, that might be something else that she does not want to return to.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Your view of your wife's contribution as a SAHM is not very respectful (along with other things you have said about her), and if she sensed this, that might be something else that she does not want to return to.

No, I was actually very respectful of my WW's contribution as a partially SAHM, I supported her through the early years. That is why she had the schedule she has. I did express some resentment why things were not being done but I was given silence in return as she avoided conflict and we never had an open discussion about these subjects. Little did I know that the A was heating up throughout this time.

However, having found out about the 9+ year latest EA, and being betrayed twice, my views of her activities changed dramatically. Obviously my lenses are being colored by the fact that I found out in hindsight, her energy was being focused on POSOM instead of me. Her frequent hair and nail appointments were directly related to the selfies she sent to OM. She really checked out of her role as a wife and mom several years ago.

Unfortunately I am the one with the ox getting gored, and there's not enough space here to weigh and balance the details of 18 years of marriage. It is also very difficult to stay on the moral high ground when I'm being attacked legally and financially, as well as emotionally.


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
Originally Posted by LostOnWestCoast
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Your view of your wife's contribution as a SAHM is not very respectful (along with other things you have said about her), and if she sensed this, that might be something else that she does not want to return to.

No, I was actually very respectful of my WW's contribution as a partially SAHM, I supported her through the early years. That is why she had the schedule she has. I did express some resentment why things were not being done but I was given silence in return as she avoided conflict and we never had an open discussion about these subjects. Little did I know that the A was heating up throughout this time.

However, having found out about the 9+ year latest EA, and being betrayed twice, my views of her activities changed dramatically. Obviously my lenses are being colored by the fact that I found out in hindsight, her energy was being focused on POSOM instead of me. Her frequent hair and nail appointments were directly related to the selfies she sent to OM. She really checked out of her role as a wife and mom several years ago.

Unfortunately I am the one with the ox getting gored, and there's not enough space here to weigh and balance the details of 18 years of marriage. It is also very difficult to stay on the moral high ground when I'm being attacked legally and financially, as well as emotionally.
You are not required to weigh and balance the details of 18 years of marriage in order to fight this affair and fight for your marriage. And it is indeed very difficult to stay on the moral high ground, but this forum does not exist to support you when you DJ your wife.

"Unfortunately, I am the one with the ox getting gored" - you're telling me to butt out, because you are the one going through this - being attacked legal financially and emotionally - and it's easy for me to sit on the sidelines having a go at you. I should not point out when you are engaging in behaviours that will not help your marriage, or point out how your wife might see your disrespectful judgements and attitudes.

Consider it done.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 435
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 435
You needed to follow the POJA regarding stay at home and meet each other's needs. These are the key MB principles and exactly what DR Harley talks about. If you don't create a lifestyle that you can both enthusiastically agree to... neither of you will be happy.. and especially if one is sacraficial for the other. This is the problem.

It's not disrespectful to be unhappy if your nerds aren't being met. You need to not say "you" statements... but you can say "I feel this, when you do that".. Dr Harley talks about this all the time on his radio show.

In plan A... probably, this is not the time to negotiate to have your needs met... but you want to present the option for a MB marriage.

I don't understand how any of this is non MB adice... so please correct me.

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
L
Member
OP Offline
Member
L
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 428
Originally Posted by SugarCane
"Unfortunately, I am the one with the ox getting gored" - you're telling me to butt out, because you are the one going through this - being attacked legal financially and emotionally - and it's easy for me to sit on the sidelines having a go at you. I should not point out when you are engaging in behaviours that will not help your marriage, or point out how your wife might see your disrespectful judgements and attitudes.

Consider it done.

You are correct. It is very hard to stay objective and unemotional in one's own case. It is much easier for me to behave objectively in other people's cases.
I am just so frustrated that the cards are so stacked against me in the legal system. My careful planning and savings resulted in a large nest egg that is now being broken apart to fund an effort to tear my family apart. That really hurts.


Me-BH, 47
Spouse-WW, 47
Married for 18 years
DS, 11
D-Day #1 - November 1998 (7 months after wedding)
False Recovery, 16 years
D-Day #2 - November 2015
WW filed for D - February 2016
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 435
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 435
***EDIT***

Last edited by Mizar; 02/26/16 01:13 PM.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
Originally Posted by typicalman
Lost's feelings are not invalid... why can't they find a way to create a marriage that works for both if them??
That has nothing to do with what Sugarcane posted, or even with what you originally posted.

If Lost's wife comes back to him, of course they will build a marriage that "works for both of them." However, that doesn't mean she has to go to work when she doesn't want to. It doesn't mean that being a SAHM has somehow made their marriage "co-dependent" (have you even read what Dr. Harley says on co-dependency?) Have you even read what Dr. Harley says about POJA? It sounds like you haven't, since you seem to think he somehow should be able to make her get a job when she doesn't want one.

And through all this, he must not be the slightest bit disrespectful toward her, which was Sugarcane's point. But I'm not surprised you missed that, because you yourself struggle with disrespectful judgments toward your wife (and seem to think they're justified at times).


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 435
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 435
***EDIT***

Moderator' note: Check your email

Last edited by Mizar; 02/26/16 01:27 PM.
Page 30 of 43 1 2 28 29 30 31 32 42 43

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,079 guests, and 45 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5