If only we could! She has the only job right now and we are in financial ruin.

I read your thread through from beginning to end, and I listened to your radio show.

I can't for the life of me understand why you haven't listened to it several times, and written down the advice, and followed it step by step. Indeed, when you say you "stopped the programme", are you saying you never listened to it all the way through? Why is that?

I also do not understand why you have not got back in touch with Dr Harley, who practically begged you to keep him updated. He has such expertise with your problems, and he was reaching out to help you.

At the time of your programme, you had evidence of your wife's interest in another man, but there had been no concrete affair. The problem that Dr H identified was your alcoholism, and he was very concerned about this. He advised you to go to a support group like AA. He did not think that you would stay sober without using a support group daily.

Have you joined AA? If not, why not?

I accept that you say you have not touched a drop, but there is such despair in your posts that I think you are not surviving the problems in your marriage at all well. You need a support group for your sobriety, and you need to check in with Dr Harley as he asked you to, and to tell him about the recent affairs.

When I read through this thread, I could see so many problems from beginning to end. The main one is that you don't seem to have been advised to learn about Marriage Builders. You have been given piecemeal advice to end the affair, but not comprehensive advice to change your marriage completely. Because you took off with the kids and had a domestic violence charge against you, the thread got caught up with overcoming those issues, and now your wife is back and you have no clue what to do next.

(We are all responsible for that lack of education in MB. I hold my hands up as not having given direct attention to this thread until now.)

I didn't see where anybody told you to read Surviving an Affair, for example - something we normally do as routine. I don't see where anybody told you to download the MB app and listen to the radio show every day.
Thank you so much for your reply and willingness to help. I agree that I need help. Several people have been instructing me to listen to the broadcast everyday. After a month with her absence, I quit... I lost all hope. Her hatred pushed me away. I have been sober for 6 months now and occasionally go to an AA meeting.

I think you urgently need to:

1. Write Dr Harley an email, providing a link to your show ,and asking for his help with the current situation. Go on the radio show if Joyce invites you.
I have written him several times during this whole process, I just haven't posted the replies in here. Last I spoke to him, he stated that the affair needed to die a natural death and I needed to move on until that point... Well here we are... I have written him this morning giving him a full break down of all the events.
2. Listen to your own radio show (there is a link in this thread) right the way through.
I will listen to it again and thank you! I have listened to it possibly 8-10 times already, but it never hurts to listen to it again


3. Download and begin reading Surviving an Affair.

I was going to pick up the hard copy from books-a-million today, but I got sidetracked... Downloading it would be a great idea!

4. Find a single-sex support group like AA, and go every day.

This may be difficult, but I will try

5. Make an appointment with you GP to ask for anti-depressants. You are clearly very low, and missing the alcohol (you talked about craving it, on the radio show) and you are having a horrible time with your wife. what you are going through is really too much to bear alone. You need ADs to help you cope with your difficulties.

I have been on them in the past 8 months

6. Download the MB app and listen to the radio show every day, without fail.

Started again Yesterday... 10-4

I think you need to work on every single one of these things TODAY. Please let me know when you have done them all.

Your joblessness was another thing Dr Harley was very worried about. You need to end that situation immediately. Dr Harley can help you with strategic actions, and keep you motivated.

I don't ever want to upset my wife. I love her with all my heart. She is starting to gain my trust back everyday. I want to show her that I respect her privacy also... and yet... I am still catching myself with trust issues. How do I ask her to make me feel comfortable or show me that I can trust her?

You can't do these things, and you shouldn't even try. "Respecting her privacy" is wrong in marriage, and ultra-wrong when she is having an affair. You are setting yourself up for a false recovery if you defer to the "privacy" concept in any way, shape or form. You need to violate her privacy. You need to spy on her like a demon. You need to protect your marriage. You need to snoop on all possible means of communication, and most importantly, you do not tell her you are doing this. If she knows what you can see and hear, she will just hide the evidence elsewhere.

Dr Harley wholeheartedly endorses snooping. Do as he says, do the logical thing and spy to protect yourself, and do not trust her an inch. trust is misplaced when it comes to opposite sex situations in any marriage, and the idea of trusting someone who is having an affair would be funny, if it were not for the fact that affairs lead to family breakdown, mental breakdown, and suicide.

And as for not upsetting her: it is quite true that in marriage, you should never upset your spouse. It is also critical in Plan A that you do nothing to make any love bank withdrawals - i.e., you do nothing to upset your spouse. However, as Dr Harley says, the affair will spell the end of your marriage if it continues, and you cannot avoid the love buster of fighting the affair if you are to protect your marriage. The alternative is to appease her, not express any hurt about the affair, and let her see OM as much as she likes. That situation would be intolerable for any spouse and any marriage. We are not endorsing open marriage, after all. So, in order to not tolerate the affair and their continued contact, and in order to insist that it comes to an end, you must "upset" your wife by refusing to let her do what she wants.

Exposure upsets your wife. Insisting on no contact upsets her, and so would going to Plan B if, after a sustained effort, you could not do Plan A any more - but these things must be done.

Think of it as upsetting the affair, if you prefer, but upsetting it, and invading her privacy, are absolutely essential to your marriage - for life.

Later, just before checkout, she told me the truth and refused to let me buy them. Said that it was for him as a goodbye... She has something else of his that needs to be returned and she wanted to send this with it. Something about he lost the last one... I told her that I would never tell her what to do, but I said this was a really bad idea and it is hurting me. I said if you really want to do this, then I will support you.

I also stated that if you are going to do this, please write him a goodbye letter asking to never contact her again and tell him that you no longer love him. She refused to only say that it will say "goodbye". I asked her last night if this was the way she wants closure. She said it will, but I think it will lead him on and make him think he still has a chance. I'm not far enough in the book yet to help me out with this situation. Please help

You need to knock this the heck off. After what I wrote to you earlier today about upsetting the affair, what on earth made you say you would support her in sending gifts to her boyfriend?She is so upset with me right now because I have been trying to talk her into being with me and leaving him alone. She is so depressed she is still in bed now. How do I approach her? Do I even need to worry about upsetting her? Is my focus completely off?

You need to ask her to send the No Contact letter that Dr Harley has templated in Surviving an Affair. Use the exact words there. You can find the letter by looking through the index. This is exactly what I want! but how do I get this to happen without demands?

My love for this woman is tearing me apart. I am dieing inside all over again. I know she is in withdrawal and I know her depression is killing her. She cries herself to sleep and won't let me near her. She told me today that she is still looking to move out as soon as she can, but it won't be fast enough. She
won't talk to OM because of the kids. Not because of me.

I take the kids to school every morning and I found OM waiting on the corner for her to bring my son to school. Seeing him infuriated me. He saw me and left. If she was communicating with him beyond my capabilities to monitor, he wouldn't have been there.

I know it feels like an insult, but it's a good idea to support no contact whatever the reason. You have to start somewhere. Try to control your emotional reactions the same as if you were trying to control anger. Calm yourself. Imagine a peaceful landscape etc.I truly need to manage my emotions. It has started to control me. We have decided to separate again until I can get my emotions and my financial situation in check. This is not the ideal situation, but until she has learned that she will not be happy with him either, there is very little I can do.


Good job with this double whammy of Plan A and being an Obstacle to Contact at the same time.

Try to comfort her through withdrawal even though it feels unfair. You want her to associate you with feely-goody things. Be creative. I am trying to be as caring for her feelings right now as I can and trying to put my own after hers. I am really struggling with this.

Continue working on the job situation. You will make progress and it willve you something to occupy your thoughts.

Good morning!

I know it has been quite some time since our last discussion and many things have changed, so I would like to update you. As you remember, my wife and I have been separated since September of 2015. After my plan B letter, there may have been 3 occasions where I broke communication silence and as expected, arguing happened. I tried to stay as positive as possible without turning anything back on her, yet I really wanted to know why this was all happening, but got no where. I also mentioned that I had forgiven her multiple times and would take her back when she was ready.



Finally the day before my Domestic Violence court date, She contacted me for the first time and gave me the most sincerest apology I have ever heard. Said that she was still very unhappy where she was and stated that it may not have been me, after all, that made her feel like that, but the stresses of life and the overwhelming house hold that we were trying to maintain. I told her to come back home. The charges were dismissed after several hours of waiting and stressing out. After, my mother invited her over for dinner. She stated that she wanted to come back but temporarily as roommates while she gets over the affair. I agreed but insisted that she re-read my final letter and agreed with it's requests. She did so and stated that she had some requests as well. That I find a job and keep it. That I listen to her complaints with an open heart. That I stop with all the love busters that I had done pre-breakup January 2015. I also agreed. She stated that she would do anything to gain my trust back including letting me look over her shoulder with texts, messages, and social media posts.



We are both well aware that we have a lot of hurt to overcome and this will not be easy. She stated that she needs time to heal from her recent breakup and that she is not completely over him. He and his family are not that type of people that she wants around her children and this change of status is mainly about them (her words). She feels that she will never be happy and has even mentioned suicide but would never do that because of our children. She is on depression medication and anti-anxiety. She moved out of his house Saturday. He was constantly texting her and messaging her via social media and she was allowing me to read and offer suggestion on what to reply with to maintain peace so that she could get her stuff out of his house due to his violent nature. She was finally out of his house, yet that night after she had went to bed, I took her phone to read the messages from earlier while she was getting her things. It stated that she still loved him and missed him and if things don't work out with me, she would return to him. I was upset by this and immediately brought it to her attention. I was not argumentative about it or tried to use judging words; however, I did Show her the messages and asked her to explain. She was more upset that I went behind her back to look into her phone. Said I did not trust her and showed dis-respect. Her excuse for the texts were to maintain peace. The next day, we changed her phone number and blocked him from social media and agreed that both of us would deactivate social media while we work through our problems.



The next morning, I asked to look at her phone while she woke up, and she said ok. First thing I noticed was that he had sent her a message over night on Facebook messenger. I asked her about it and she said it was impossible because he was blocked. I showed her that he was not. She refused to comment about it any further until she had woken up. She was mad. Later that day, she admitted unblocking him to view his page and comments about her. She also told him that she still loves him and misses him. He had also written on her wall that I cannot see and feared to ask her because she would get mad about trust and respect again. She later stated that she misses him and maybe coming back was not the right choice. She has been in a deep depression since. I asked her never to talk or message him again per our agreement. She stated yesterday that all I want to do is talk about rebuilding our marriage and she is highly annoyed. She isn't sure if she wants to be with me. She has started crying several times because she misses him and admits that she may never be happy. I keep asking her for time. I had her read the the first half of your article series "Coping with Infidelity" last night. This seemed to help slightly. We both deactivated our social media accounts. But right before bed, she had another episode of breaking down into tears and refused to let me comfort her. I tried to tell her, "I completely understand your feelings and respect you. This will pass with time and will get better."



It is really hard for me to have any sympathy for their affair and every time she tells me that she misses him or loves him, it breaks my heart again. However, I tell her not to stop talking to me about her feelings and what she is upset about. She has confessed to holding in all her feelings for so long for fear of hurting me or causing a conflict. So I am encouraging her to use the policy of Radical Honesty. But I am not being completely honest with her. The hurt I feel inside is extreme. I have a very hard time trusting her to be alone. She has already showen me that she is deleting messages and has lied to me. And yet, I am the bad guy who doesn't trust her and doesn't respect her. We do not sleep in the same room yet and have only been intimate once. Yesterday she stated all I want to do is talk and that is exactly what I was doing when she left me.... I agree I have a tendency to beat a dead horse. I talk way too much about this subject and how her life would be so much better if we follow your program and give me the chance.



So that's where we are.



P.S. Alcohol and drugs are no where to be found, I am committed to making God the foundation of our marriage, and I still haven't found work.

I am writing again because my wife is in real trouble. She has started sleeping till late in day, forgetting work and responsibilities. I am taking care of the kids for the most part. She stated that she is not wanting to do life anymore. I stay at her bed side for many hours trying to get her out of it. She is in complete withdrawal, from OM, from life, from me. I Just don't know what to do! I try to be kind and supportive, do any and everything she asks or needs. I'v taken her to a flea market (her favorite thing) for her to only pick out something for OM? At least she told me? she says it's her way of saying goodbye... All contact has been eliminated. Facebook deactivated and numbers changed. What do I do?

I am reading your book "Surviving an Affair". Very powerful messages. I am already half way through it. My wife has decided to leave again. She claims that she does not want to be with me and being here with me is making her even worse. I admit to pushing her to start the program with me and talk way more than I should. Sometimes it feels like a lecture. After speaking with my pastor, I have come to realize that I spent far too much time trying to fix her and her depression than actually working on myself and getting myself straight. To be very honest, I'm not sure if I was emotionally stable enough to have her back.

I just called her, and she stated that she did go to his house this morning and see him. She stated that she will be moving back with him this weekend. She will be leaving the kids in my care and all her possessions except for her clothes. This is reading out to be an exact copy of your book. I am deeply saddened by this but still have faith that one day she will come out of this fog. But I have to stop worrying about her and get myself straight. Any guidance you can offer to help me get through this would be greatly appreciated.

Hi ####
I'm taking these sentences from your letter of a few days ago: "she had some requests as well. That I find a job and keep it. That I listen to her complaints with an open heart. That I stop with all the love busters that I had done pre-breakup January 2015. I also agreed. She stated that she would do anything to gain my trust back including letting me look over her shoulder with texts, messages, and social media posts."

How were you addressing those complaints while she was with you? Even though she is in the fog, she will still be watching you to see if you are making an effort to solve the problems that she had with you in your marriage. The other man doesn't stand a chance with her, and it's likely that she will start letting you know that she is considering coming back to you. When that happens, make sure that these issues she is raising are all addressed in a way that gives her hope.

Dr. Harley

At first I pushed her away by trying to force her to take me back by continuously lecturing her on the program and telling her how much I will change. She hadn't even decided to work on the marriage yet. So this made it even easier for her to give in to him and break the silence. I have since showed her that even though she is going back to him, and as much as I don't approve of the decision, I respect it. I'm trying to make it my full time job to look for a job. One thing she told me yesterday, I'm still trying to add stipulations. I make many mistakes like this.

Here is my most recent letter to her. And I wonder if the plan B letter is something I should consider right now?

"My dearest love,
I have made many mistakes in my life and continue to do so. I have never wanted to hurt you. Everyday is an opportunity to learn and adapt and I will forever learn and adapt to find new ways to bring joy to your life. One of my greatest mistakes in life is pretending I know anything at all. When it comes to the one person in this world who has shown me what true love is, I know absolutely nothing. What i do know is that You are the master of my heart and of my world. With you standing beside me, WE can and will become the greatest love story ever written. But even the way we repair our relationship and how it is maintained should be a mutual decision and not something that I try to force. I have taken all the wrong steps, because I still tried to do what I thought was right instead of listening to your heart. With your help and your wants, needs and desires met, our lives and our children's lives will truly be happy! But it is your choice and your decision. I'm so sorry I failed you. I'm so sorry that I tried to force my views on you. I'm so sorry I gave you stipulations. I'm not a psychologist and I pretended to be one. Please think about giving me a chance to win your heart back. But I'm in no place to tell you what you want or what your feelings are. All I can do is listen to your heart and wait for my chance to prove my ability to become the man you want. You will not be changing me and I won't ever think about changing you, but the things that annoy you and upset you are all things that I will remove and replace with habits that brings happiness. I will be getting a job so I can support you. I will be finding a place for us, but it needs to be a place that you want and that you have every opinion on. So I fear that the place I get will not be to your liking. So I ask you. Please don't give up on us.

You are my greatest source of wisdom, intelligence, and love.

Love always, your husband and best friend,
#### #####
"

While she is gone, I have a lot of work to do. Get a job, find a new place, get a car, work on listening to her and refrain from making "but i will change" comments. I'm horrible at trying to be a know it all. I think I should developed the habit of saying "I'm not sure, but I can try and find out" my new saying... The guy she is with has a 5th grade education and I think it's relief for her so that she feels more intelligent. I never wanted to act like I'm smarter. But I have done just this on many occasions. I was completely wrong. She also told me that she knew I would catch her in bed with him on that day. She was also so distraught from all the stresses of life at the time and my relapse, she started the affair as a way to get away from me.

One suggestion on a possible article or topic of discussion, how to successfully gain the support of your spouse to start the program.

In reading Surviving an Affair, you'll notice that Sue didn't come to me for counseling until her relationship with the other man had completely ended. It's what I call the affair dying a natural death. This man doesn't stand a chance if you are really able to do what you put into your letter.

Thank you sir! I know I have my problems that must be fixed before anything will get better. She actually told me that she was disappointed in me that I hadn't improved myself while she was gone. I spent the entire time in depression and blaming my situation on her and him. I think I may have developed a since of worth and purpose through my wife's return and departure. So it's not all bad.

Oh and she has told me several times that she cannot see her self with this guy for much longer. But he does make her happy but doesn't provide her all the needs she requires. She is also ashamed to even let him meet her father. I know the fog is why she has left me and the kids again. I wish there was a way to show her this. She has stated many times that she values her children's happiness over her own, so why would she make her kids unhappy like this so she can be happy?