Hello Man, welcome to Marriage Builders. A couple of questions first. Are you married? How long married and how many kids? How old are your kids? We have been married for nearly 12 years and together for 13. We have a 10 day old Angle, a 10 year old boy, and a 6 year old Girl.

Who is this "friend" your wife is texting and what do you know about him? Is he married? He was actually her cousin's "boy friend" untill her cousin got back together with her ex. He is not married and rather hansom. He is someone who I would be threatened by.

And are either of you alcoholics? At one time I would have said that I could be. But I have proven otherwise and refuse to drink now. She is becoming a binge drinker. Every time she drinks at the bar she has to be helped to the car and out of. Her mother recently moved in with us and she is enabling this. She is enabling the entire problem.

I don't see why you have eliminated infidelity as an issue in your marriage. Have you read in His Needs Her Needs about how the love bank works?

I'd pick up Dr Harleys book Surviving An Affair. Here are the birds and the bees: Your wife has closed her love bank to you. Don't stop plan A-ing your wife. At the very least your wife is having emotional affairs with these guys she is seeking out. Don't take her trolling for men casually. You say she calls and writes these guys and you get jealous and upset. Most husband's would get upset if their wife was going to a bar, getting drunk, flirting with other men, maintaining intimate in various communications. You have a right to ask her to stop and protect you from this behavior. You don't have a right to abuse her over it. You likely need couching help here to help you through. Are you still drinking? Frankly neither of you are fit for marriage if alcohol is your lover. I do need couching. We were instructed by the councilor to read the book together. We read the first chapter and she decided she didn't wat to read it any further. She said that she is tiered of working on this marriage and she doesn't want to fix it anymore.

MelodyLane,

I am most certain that she is not having an affair. In fact I am positive. No I am not delusional nor in denial. If she is having an affair with me, it is the bar itself. She is shut down. She will talk to me in short periods and we get along for the biggest part. But I am not receiving any of my needs. She can't have sex for another 3 weeks anyway. She just had a hysterectomy due to endometriosis. If she was having an affair, her mother could help. She is a good woman. Her mother also goes to the bar with her. She tells me some of what goes on there. She also tells me that I don't need to be concerned with this other guy. "He's a loser and idiot."

I start seeing her as trying to hide things from me and her conversations on her phone. So I start snooping. I see things that are normally harmless as threatening. Before I let my jealousy control me, I tell her what I have done and what I found and apologized. I asked her to tell her friend to chill out with some of the love quotes and chain letters. They were offending me because I saw them threatening.

If she was having an affair, her mother could help. She is a good woman. Her mother also goes to the bar with her. She tells me some of what goes on there. She also tells me that I don't need to be concerned with this other guy. "He's a loser and idiot."

Oh I am in constant contact with with her cousin and mother. They tell me things and some times they actually put in good words for me with my wife.

I don't need to be concerned with this other guy. "He's a loser and idiot."

MelodyLane,

I am most certain that she is not having an affair. In fact I am positive. No I am not delusional nor in denial. If she is having an affair with me, it is the bar itself. She is shut down. She will talk to me in short periods and we get along for the biggest part. But I am not receiving any of my needs. She can't have sex for another 3 weeks anyway. She just had a hysterectomy due to endometriosis. If she was having an affair, her mother could help. She is a good woman. Her mother also goes to the bar with her. She tells me some of what goes on there. She also tells me that I don't need to be concerned with this other guy. "He's a loser and idiot."

Hi, Man,

I am sorry for the circumstances that brought you here. Marriage Builders can help you turn it around, if you are willing to do some things that may be uncomfortable or non-instinctive for you.

I have personally turned my marriage around using Marriage Builders, in circumstances when my wife did not want to cooperate or follow any suggestions, and when she was allowing other men to meet her emotional needs.

Here is what I would recommend you do:

* Start listening to Dr. Harley's free Marriage Builders Radio show every day. You can listen online on this website, or you can install an app on your phone or tablet. The show is available 24/7 and there is a new show each weekday. You are going to need to educate and broaden your perspective about marriage and affairs, and this show can do that for you. You are also going to need continued motivation and encouragement, and the show can help provide that as well.
* See your doctor about getting antidepressants prescribed for the short term. As your wife's behavior continues, it will take an emotional toll on you. You will begin to see problems as unsolvable and to think less rationally. Antidepressants can help keep you rational and even out the emotional highs and lows enough for you to be able to follow a plan to solve your problems.
* Continue and increase your snooping behavior. Find out exactly how far her behavior goes. DO NOT CONFRONT her about it - bring back what you find here to find out what to do with it.
* Start tagging along with her wherever she goes. Become so integrated into her life that she would not be able to have an affair without your knowledge.

I will, I have plans this weekend to try and catch her in the act. I also placed a spy app on her phone that will send me all of her texts to and from.

OK I had an epiphany, her relationship may be developing with this guy, which I am trying to put an end to, but that's not the biggest issue here. She is having an emotional affair not with a guy but the bar and her friends there. She said that she feels most loved when she is at that bar.

OK I realize that she is having an emotional affair with me. I get that. I feel that. I understand it. She has not slept with him yet. I promise you that. I know it could happen. I am trying to put a stop to it before it does. But I am also pushing her further away.

Last night I explained to her why I didn't want her going out to the bar. I also told her that if she wanted to go, then I would be going with her. SHE IS PISSED.

OK I realize that she is having an emotional affair with me. I get that. I feel that. I understand it. She has not slept with him yet. I promise you that. I know it could happen. I am trying to put a stop to it before it does. But I am also pushing her further away.

Last night I explained to her why I didn't want her going out to the bar. I also told her that if she wanted to go, then I would be going with her. SHE IS PISSED. I am trying to do the Policy of Mutual Agreement. I am trying to compromise with her. She said fine "I'll go out Saturday night." I asked her why she wants to go. She said" I am trying to get away from reality and you are my reality. I go there to be with my friends where I feel loved." So I asked her "What makes you feel loved?" She came back with "I don't think I should have to tell you that. It is your job to find out." I asked her why she is so mad. She said, "Because you are telling me what I can and can't do." I asked her if I said she can go, would that make her happy?

I chuckled and she didn't like that I thought it was funny. I am trying to keep my cool. I just don't know what else I am supposed to do.

She came back with "I don't think I should have to tell you that. It is your job to find out." I asked her why she is so mad. She said, "Because you are telling me what I can and can't do."

I was also told to talk with BF and get an insight on what wife has told him about trying to get back with cousin. Let him know that I am trying to repair my marriage and give him incentive to leave her alone without alerting her.

She gets mad and says she wants a divorce, I interject. I talk to her cousin about her trying to find some hope and some help.

I have lost my job because of this whole thing.

Did you do this?

Quit trying to control or debate how your wife feels, and start trying to be the best husband in the world for her.

I would strongly encourage you to see your doctor and get on antidepressants until your marriage turns around, so you will be able to function.

Are you making finding a new job a full time job? This is Dr. Harley's recommendation for a husband who is out of work.

I suspect Financial support is a high EN for her. Is there other work you could do while you wait for the right job to help fulfill this need?

Why is it that I have spent the last 13 years working 40-60 hours a week trying to put food on the table and at times going to school full time, and the first time she gets a 40 hour a week job, I am to be ridiculed? She all of a sudden demands that I pay very close attention to her 40 hour a week job? I hear about her 40 hour a week job everyday and how she deserves special treatment? I feel like I am giving this to her anyway. Now the things that I am doing to better myself and make her needs my priority is a demand of hers because she is working a 40 hour a week job.

Oh by the way, have I mentioned that she has a 40 hour a week job?

Are you here to learn how to attract your wife back to a relationship with you? Because all of that is very unattractive of you to say.

Sorry you are both struggling and I don't mean to hijack, but how does one know if someone put spy wear on their phone? My hubby is always taking my phone and saying he's "updating" it. I'm nervous now. Not Bc I'm doing anything but bc I'm sharing things about him. Can you just see texts or her web activity??

Sorry you are both struggling and I don't mean to hijack, but how does one know if someone put spy wear on their phone? My hubby is always taking my phone and saying he's "updating" it. I'm nervous now. Not Bc I'm doing anything but bc I'm sharing things about him. Can you just see texts or her web activity??

I even went as far as to bringing her mother back into her life.

No just Divorced times 3

Hmmmmmmmmmm..........

I did not get my hour of planned alone time with her last night. She came home emotionally and physically drained from her job. Even though I don't have a job, we are discussing her leaving her's. It's one thing to be unhappy with your husband. It's something else if you can't enjoy life.

A good relationship with her husband is the most important thing a wife needs in order to enjoy life. He needs to be her escape from the world. What did she do to escape and unwind when she got home last night? Whatever it is, you need to join in.

I'm impatient yes. I have loved this woman for 12 years and for the last 12 years we have had specific things that show me she loves me. For the last 6 months, these things are gone. If I could get just a few of them back, I would stop worrying so much.

Thanks Markos!

Yeah this Friday she was hanging on me like nothing ever happened. I was in true bliss. Then Sat and Sun she was back to depression. I was trying to give her cliff notes on what I was reading from Dr. Harley's books, and she looked like she was falling asleep.

I can't contact her throughout the day.

I am trying to listen when I have a free second. I have ears around me most of the time that I really don't want.

The short answer, you won't and he can. I am in the business of information security. Give me five minutes and I can tell you everything you have done in the last 4 months, deleted or not. There are ways to find it, anti-spyware is a good one. But if he is regularly checking your phone than he doesn't have the true deal. If it was it would email him everything.

Thanks for the lesson though. One thing you should be more worried about is why are you worried about anything? Any thing and everything you do should be free from worry. If you have something to hide, why are you doing it? This comment made me look inside and think about every thing I have said in this thread. If I want to be completely open, than I should be able to show my wife everything that is posted here without fear. I can't do that right now. But at least I have figured this out now. I have a lot to change about myself. Add this to the list.

I dont know that the idea there is all true. There are things, (many in fact), that I dont and wont share with my spouse. Has nothing to do with being fearful of them knowing, rather there are personal thoughts and feelings I have, that I dont want influenced by others (and that means ANY others), until I have made up my mind how I feel about them. Just one off the top of my head...religious issues. Before anyone hits reply before they finish, what I am saying is that I dont want to know, care to hear, or wish to discuss this issue in any way, as I am in the process (which may take who knows how long), of really formulating a belief system from not just what faith I was assigned due to parental beliefs, but what my life expirience has shown me. What makes ME feel happy and spiritual. I dont want that shaded, discussed or opinionized by ANYONE, and just the thought that someone else is even viewing the sources and materials I am studying, BEFORE I really am solid in my beliefs is destructive. The concept of anyone else exposing themselves to the materials and philosophies I am absorbing, then having the ability to ignore my desires to not discuss it, and impose their views or judgements, is a thought that irritates me to no end. Now that is just an example. Another quick one would be work documentations. I have had it happen that since I wasnt careful with paperwork, etc., that my spouse was curious and read quite a few. A month or so later, when I was talking to a client at an event, my spouse nodded knowingly at the material we discussed and even had some input. That was the worst thing possible, since the material they read was scrapped, and outdated, and a new firm who had no prior knowledge that my firm had been leaning in another direction at first was embarrassing to say the least. I was in a very bad situation, and since my spuse didnt fully understand as in depth as they should have, drew conclusions that were way to simplistic, and that were contrary to what was needed. Im just saying that while there is nothing in those topics to "hide" persay, I would never submit to exposing that material to anyone, and for those reasons. I knw that really isnt the focus of this, but in the interest of over-simplifying statements, like "if you have nothing to hide, there should be no problem", that is not always the case.

Hey again!

So it has been a month or two since I was on last but I have to say that things are better than they were...

Last we met, my wife stated that she was willing to work on the relationship (for the kids) and we have started back on the road to recovery. To be honest, it has been one big roller coaster ride. Some days she is arm and arm ready for a fulfilling relationship, while others are met with uncertainty, chaos, resentment, and her wanting to get as far away as possible. She absolutely hates the idea of talking about the relationship and any time I bring up the program, the mood goes south and it all goes back to "Oh god, not this again."

We are back to "physical relations" and we have had a moment where there were actually firsts in an 11 year old marriage, but anytime I try anything, she tells me not to push it? Let things happen naturally. Basically this stands for: if she's not in the mood, I need to stop talking and touching. For which I respect. I guess 1 every other week is better than nothing. I spend a great deal of time trying anything to meet her emotional needs, yet I am scolded on trying to hold her hand when we are in the car? She is asking for more space but when I give her that, she seems even more distant. I'm not trying to rant, I'm just confused. The other night she said that she has forgiven me for the past, but she is still not over it.

I want the very best relationship we can have. The hard part is, how? The other part is, what does she see as the best relation ship ever? When I try to envision it, I look at the day we were married.

Is your wife still drinking, and smoking dope?

Actually no! We are on a budget now and all of that isn't in it.

Are you verifying that? How?

Actually no! We are on a budget now and all of that isn't in it. We are searching for our dream home and getting our finances ironed out. I found out that this is one of her biggest ENs.

I spend a great deal of time trying anything to meet her emotional needs, yet I am scolded on trying to hold her hand when we are in the car? She is asking for more space but when I give her that, she seems even more distant. I'm not trying to rant, I'm just confused. The other night she said that she has forgiven me for the past, but she is still not over it.

I want the very best relationship we can have. The hard part is, how? The other part is, what does she see as the best relation ship ever? When I try to envision it, I look at the day we were married.

What is one of her biggest ENs?

How have you discovered her emotional needs?

She's a bookkeeper???

That was disrespectful.

As for why its hard for her to talk about money at home, personally- its SO much easier dealing with money when its not YOUR money. You don't have to worry about your own personal failures with someone else's money. Of course this is simplifying it, there could be any number of reasons why its difficult or scary or whatever else for your wife to talk about money at home. Just giving you some insight.

Dont do the pity party "maybe this isn't the place for me" crap. The posters here are trying to help you see what it is that you could be doing wrong. Just stop, take it in, listen.

Please someone answer this for me:
If I can't talk about the relationship and I am to, in her words, "just supposed to let things happen", then how am I to figure out what LBs and ENs she sees and responds to?

Ok so remember when I stated that finances was a huge EN for her? Last night I noticed her mood had changed even when everything seemed to be going great. I finally got her to open up and let me know what was on her mind.

She is mad at me for spending too much money lately. I don't really understand why though. Every purchase lately has been for her, or discussed in length before spending.

It was really like, she didn't want to get out of the car at the gas station in the morning. She always gets a cold Starbucks coffee, and I get a Monster. But since I am the one going in and swiping the card, I'm the one who made the purchase. I think it is more the anxiety that we are blowing through our cash to fast on small things like lunch and drinks in the morning.

I am most certain that she is still upset with previous lifestyle and wrong doings that I will continue to be blamed and ridiculed until she is able to heal. I am ok with this, yet it still hurts and I need to learn to cope.

That may be the case, but it is something that I question. When she is at work, she excels and it is her passion. When she comes home it is like, shhhhh don't talk about money. When I attempt to handle the cash, I am shot down and disrespected with hurtful words.

If that is the only thing you have gotten out of my statements and the only thing you can point out, maybe this isn't the place for me.

I think I have written about 3 different responses to this. Each one I felt that I needed to delete it. I'll say this, I'm not looking for pity. I had a question, I have more questions, and it feels like I am getting unrelated push back. I have a ton of Love Busters that need to be removed from my life. but I also have a need to find the EN deposits that motivate her enough to remove the Love Busters from her life.

That may be the case, but it is something that I question. When she is at work, she excels and it is her passion. When she comes home it is like, shhhhh don't talk about money.

STOP questioning it, and STOP justifying your lovebusters.
It is perfectly normal for her to excel with finances at work but also be unwilling to discuss money with you. She doesn't need you scrutinizing her feelings or motives. It's a lovebuster.

If you want her to talk with you about money, you're going to have to stop treating her this way.

OK so I may have screwed up...

I haven't been listening to the radio show and I have stopped reading the books because I have this problem when I think I know what I am doing and take things on my own. Either way, I caught my wife having sex with what was a friend. As I look back, I can see the signs. I have since left the state with my children under the advise from my Lawyer. Now she is getting defensive and willing to do anything to get her kids back, but talk to me. She has also gone as far as to try and get me arrested... She is still with this man. She has chosen him over her family. For now, I am done with this woman. I have forgiven her and willing to make amends, but it will take much more time. my only concern right now is these children.

It was the one in a text message that was calling her darling and sending those stupid chain love posts.

This is the younger bike salesman, correct?

Is he married? Have you exposed to his family? Have you told your kids?

My children are 11 and 7. I was fired for performance issues. I would rather not explain this to my children. I will keep them as innocent as I can through as much of this as I can. They understand that mom and dad can't live with each other anymore.

Yeah I spoke to dr. Harley today on this topic. I was told to do plan a. I was also told to stay away from drinking FOREVER. I can do these. I was also told to talk with BF and get an insight on what wife has told him about trying to get back with cousin. Let him know that I am trying to repair my marriage and give him incentive to leave her alone without alerting her.

Is this your show?
Radio Clip of ManKeepingHisFam's Show

Yes that was me... I think I will call and get a return on this.

I can't he blocked me days before I found out. Some of her friends and family are not happy with me about spreading our family business all over facebook. These were all private messages.

Now my wife has blocked me on Facebook. I am creating another Facebook account.
What should I write his people? From some of the contact I have had with her friends and family, it sounds like she is acting like the victim so they are not willing to help. She is digging deeper into this affair.

I don't want a divorce, but I feel as if it may come to pass.

Have you exposed to OM's family yet?

Have you told your children?

Man,
Never give a wayward money! Ever!

And if you are paying for anything that she is using to facilitate her affair i.e, her phone. Then you need to stop now.

OK so I may have screwed up...

I haven't been listening to the radio show and I have stopped reading the books because I have this problem when I think I know what I am doing and take things on my own.

So have you fixed that and you are listening to the show now and following the MB program? Or still following your own intuition?

Yes, I am fully on board. But I have no clue how to get her on board. I have stopped talking to her hoping that she will see the error she has cause.

It's like you didn't even read my question.

If you want your marriage to survive you need to start LISTENING.


You're making up your own ideas and following your own intuition. Dr. Harley didn't advise you to stop talking to her. STOP MAKING STUFF UP. You are going to lose your marriage.

Try rereading and answering my question.

Be sure you've walked through the Exposure 101 thread and done everything suggested there. Make sure you tell people personally, yourself, rather than crossing them off the list because they already know or because somebody else has told them.

Then, go confront the other man. Tell him you love your wife and he had better get away or else. Let him know that if your marriage goes to divorce you will haul him into court during the divorce and have him testify about his relationship with your wife. Make sure everybody in his life knows about what he is doing.

Meanwhile, start being Prince Charming to your wife. Invite her to go do something with you EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. She will decline a lot, but do it anyway. Set up lots and lots and lots of things to do that she would enjoy, and ask her to do it with you. If she declines, stay calm and don't fall to pieces because that is not attractive at all. Make sure there's stuff to do just the two of you without the kids.

DO NOT FIGHT WITH HER AT ALL COSTS YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO FIGHT WITH HER IT WILL SPELL DOOM FOR YOUR MARRIAGE YOU MUST NOT EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER SAY OR DO ANYTHING THAT SHE WOULD FEEL IS DEMANDING DISRESPECTFUL OR ANGRY IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT SHE DOES OR WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE JUSTIFIED DON'T DO IT OR YOU WILL END YOUR MARRIAGE.

Meanwhile, listen to the radio show EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Have you listened to Friday's show, yet? It's still available for another hour or so. Since you are claiming that you listen to the show "every day," that means you listened to Friday's show, right? You've had three days in which to listen to it. Have you?

I am currently in NC and she is in AL... Should I move back?

If the guy has threatened you, you should see a lawyer and get a restraining order filed against him. That will keep him away from you and possibly your wife as well! If he is becoming threatening, that is just ideal because so much can be done against him legally.

Really I am not either. I know that she has lost her way. She has lost who she is. I do feel sorrow. It pains me to see her like this.

I feel your pain, I feel my WW is losing everything that made her a great woman. She used to protect the kids with her life and now let's strangers touch our little one on the head. Before the affair she would get really defensive if anyone tried to attempt to touch them without your permission.

Some were in there there has to be the woman the children and I love so dearly.

Surprising enough, her reply was rather hateful and rude.

If you go to Plan B but you are able to read your WS's response, you're not doing it right.

Can I actually get one against him? Really? That would be the best thing that I could imagine.

A second reminder not to post personal details on the forum.

I'm looking at this post, and I don't understand why you are asking me - see a lawyer!!!!

So I am really starting to not like this girl. Found out today, after speaking with the police and a friend who tipped me off, my WW has submitted an affidavit stating that she was not sleeping around on me, that I found her in my home (not his) and I flipped out and attacked her and threw her out (completely false). Now I have 2 warrants back home. I have sense cleared my name and proven my innocence with the DA. But still, WOW!

It's really sad to what lengths a WS will go to cover there tracks.
I been reading the threads here I am shocked what happens, but looking at from the point of view there addicted it makes more since and makes it easier at least fo me to look past what there doing and leaving it open for recovery.

Go read wifedivorcing thread, you know he's my hero for what's he's been through.

Hang in there

My problem though is that I truly think she needs grief counseling and a mental evaluation.

My problem though is that I truly think she needs grief counseling and a mental evaluation.

Please tell us you have not said anything like this to her.

No I haven't. But it is a very real statement. I love the woman to death, but we lost a son 4 years ago in September and she is mourning over him nearly as much today as the day he passed. Just before this affair came to light (around his birthday) she told me that it feels like he dies again and again and all she wants is to sleep (her words). I'm not saying she is wrong or that her feelings are not justified, I'm saying she needs help. When she was lying there in bed, I would just hold her, dry her tears, whisper loving words, and offer to do anything she needed. She would supplement her depression meds with pot. This numbed the pain.

You need to get an attorney yesterday!!!!! What state are you in?

What you say is happening doesn't make any sense with "sworn statements", did she file a police report for assault, a RO/PO?

Having your name cleared of assault charges by a sworn statement, huh?

you need an attorney.

These legal troubles will follow you, background checks for jobs, etc. Get ahead of them now!
This is your future and the futures of your children, PROTECT IT.

Did the affair happen in NC? If so, hire a lawyer and sue the POSOM for alienation of affection.

I wish it did, but no it happened in AL.

Your Honor, Mr Prosecutor,
This is the first time I have laid eyes on my precious wife since September 21st, 2015. Thats 212 days 5084 hrs, approximately. This is an absolute lifetime if not 3. But this all didn't start in September. There has never been any history of abuse, we never fought, and family and friends would swear to you that we had the perfect marriage. But the signs where there, and like WS will tell you, I didn't listen. The fact is, I neglected her. I took her for granted. I never valued her opinion over my own. We lost a child in 2011 and my grieving to stay as busy as humanly possible, was completely different from her own. I resented her for it. I was far from the greatest husband I thought I was and those around us thought. I finally learned this in January of 2015. She asked me for a divorce, but I wouldn't give it to her. I decided then that I would change. I opened books, went on marriage building forums, started seeing councilors, sought forgiveness and tried to make amends, but it was already too late. Just when our marriage started to become the very best it has ever been in, May of that year, tragedy struck her family and we took on the responsibility of care taking for a whole other family. This tripled our stresses and financial burdens. Utilities were being cut off and future plans to rebuild our life were put on hold. There is no question in my mind why this wouldn't drive her into another man's arms, especially it being September. But what brought this case to light was more sinister than her betrayal. When I found her in his bed, the look on her face and the expression in her eyes told me that she had gotten her revenge. So I made the same mistake I have made time and time again. If she is going to hurt me, than I must do the same to her. I stood there and told her that she had lost everything. That she no longer had a choice. When I got home, I called her and did it again. I further proved that when I took the kids to NC. These were actions taken by a broken man. It was never my intent to take her kids from her. With no job, no family, and very few friends here in WS's hometown, I had to do what was best for my children and I. I knew that would destroy her, but I felt I had no choice. I never touched her. But I think we can agree that what I did was far worse.

Since that day, I have been in absolute turmoil. I have been treated like a criminal, shunned from family and friends, relocated, homeless, penniless, and have all but lost the will to live. I told myself for 4 months that Karma would seek out its revenge and that I would find the justice I craved so dearly. What I didn't realize until late, was that Karma is doing exactly that, but opposite of my own disillusion. Everything that I have done to her in our 13 years of marriage is coming back on to me. She was and is a great woman, the perfect spouse, mother, and partner I could ever want. Her patience and love for me got us through more heartaches and troublesome times than any other woman could have. She is loved by everyone around her. But what she did to me and this court was out of pure desperation. Her boy friend's Niece coerced and helped her developed a plan to not only get her kids back, but also provide a foundation for her to get a free lawyer for the pending divorce, and it worked. I do not agree with nor condone the actions and decisions that were made. But I understand and agree with why they were made. I love this woman with all my heart and soul. I know we can come back from this. Ultimately though, the choice is hers. But I will not be involved in any more strife or actions against her. I forgive her for all that has happened and I pray that one day she will forgive me. With this being said, I petition this court to drop all charges and pursue no other legal action. Thank you.

Let your lawyer do the talking for you.

If you say that crap in court, on record, she has recorded documentation of you basically admitting taking your children away from her.

Plus, you may wind up in jail.

Quit being a martyr by throwing yourself on the sword verbally and Shut Up.

LTL

She is ready to start the program. Where do we start?

When was the last time you listened to the radio show that you were on?

Have you read the book?

She is in withdrawal from the affair, so a poor mood is to be expected. Many people start ADs to help them through this time. You should focus on making LoveBank deposits and avoiding lovebusters, while implementing the EPs you have mentioned.

Can the two of you get some time away together? that is how Jon and Sue jump started their recovery.

I apologize SugarCane. I was on my phone and texting is not my passion.

It has been a while. I lost all hope for a good while and shut down completely. I stopped the program to be very honest. I was in a holding pattern. I have listened to today's.

Which one? I have read Love Busters and His need, Her needs. I do not have Surviving an Affair yet. I will pick this up tomorrow. I have read just about every article published on this website though. Maybe even twice. I know it's no substitute.

I want to get the workbook too.

My bride is very upset tonight. She is heartbroken over this guy and it is tearing me apart too. I try and pray for happiness and to fix the wounds with her. Thanking God for the miracle He has given us.

If only we could! She has the only job right now and we are in financial ruin.

I read your thread through from beginning to end, and I listened to your radio show.

I can't for the life of me understand why you haven't listened to it several times, and written down the advice, and followed it step by step. Indeed, when you say you "stopped the programme", are you saying you never listened to it all the way through? Why is that?

I also do not understand why you have not got back in touch with Dr Harley, who practically begged you to keep him updated. He has such expertise with your problems, and he was reaching out to help you.

At the time of your programme, you had evidence of your wife's interest in another man, but there had been no concrete affair. The problem that Dr H identified was your alcoholism, and he was very concerned about this. He advised you to go to a support group like AA. He did not think that you would stay sober without using a support group daily.

Have you joined AA? If not, why not?

I accept that you say you have not touched a drop, but there is such despair in your posts that I think you are not surviving the problems in your marriage at all well. You need a support group for your sobriety, and you need to check in with Dr Harley as he asked you to, and to tell him about the recent affairs.

When I read through this thread, I could see so many problems from beginning to end. The main one is that you don't seem to have been advised to learn about Marriage Builders. You have been given piecemeal advice to end the affair, but not comprehensive advice to change your marriage completely. Because you took off with the kids and had a domestic violence charge against you, the thread got caught up with overcoming those issues, and now your wife is back and you have no clue what to do next.

(We are all responsible for that lack of education in MB. I hold my hands up as not having given direct attention to this thread until now.)

I didn't see where anybody told you to read Surviving an Affair, for example - something we normally do as routine. I don't see where anybody told you to download the MB app and listen to the radio show every day.
Thank you so much for your reply and willingness to help. I agree that I need help. Several people have been instructing me to listen to the broadcast everyday. After a month with her absence, I quit... I lost all hope. Her hatred pushed me away. I have been sober for 6 months now and occasionally go to an AA meeting.

I think you urgently need to:

1. Write Dr Harley an email, providing a link to your show ,and asking for his help with the current situation. Go on the radio show if Joyce invites you.
I have written him several times during this whole process, I just haven't posted the replies in here. Last I spoke to him, he stated that the affair needed to die a natural death and I needed to move on until that point... Well here we are... I have written him this morning giving him a full break down of all the events.
2. Listen to your own radio show (there is a link in this thread) right the way through.
I will listen to it again and thank you! I have listened to it possibly 8-10 times already, but it never hurts to listen to it again


3. Download and begin reading Surviving an Affair.

I was going to pick up the hard copy from books-a-million today, but I got sidetracked... Downloading it would be a great idea!

4. Find a single-sex support group like AA, and go every day.

This may be difficult, but I will try

5. Make an appointment with you GP to ask for anti-depressants. You are clearly very low, and missing the alcohol (you talked about craving it, on the radio show) and you are having a horrible time with your wife. what you are going through is really too much to bear alone. You need ADs to help you cope with your difficulties.

I have been on them in the past 8 months

6. Download the MB app and listen to the radio show every day, without fail.

Started again Yesterday... 10-4

I think you need to work on every single one of these things TODAY. Please let me know when you have done them all.

Your joblessness was another thing Dr Harley was very worried about. You need to end that situation immediately. Dr Harley can help you with strategic actions, and keep you motivated.

I don't ever want to upset my wife. I love her with all my heart. She is starting to gain my trust back everyday. I want to show her that I respect her privacy also... and yet... I am still catching myself with trust issues. How do I ask her to make me feel comfortable or show me that I can trust her?

You can't do these things, and you shouldn't even try. "Respecting her privacy" is wrong in marriage, and ultra-wrong when she is having an affair. You are setting yourself up for a false recovery if you defer to the "privacy" concept in any way, shape or form. You need to violate her privacy. You need to spy on her like a demon. You need to protect your marriage. You need to snoop on all possible means of communication, and most importantly, you do not tell her you are doing this. If she knows what you can see and hear, she will just hide the evidence elsewhere.

Dr Harley wholeheartedly endorses snooping. Do as he says, do the logical thing and spy to protect yourself, and do not trust her an inch. trust is misplaced when it comes to opposite sex situations in any marriage, and the idea of trusting someone who is having an affair would be funny, if it were not for the fact that affairs lead to family breakdown, mental breakdown, and suicide.

And as for not upsetting her: it is quite true that in marriage, you should never upset your spouse. It is also critical in Plan A that you do nothing to make any love bank withdrawals - i.e., you do nothing to upset your spouse. However, as Dr Harley says, the affair will spell the end of your marriage if it continues, and you cannot avoid the love buster of fighting the affair if you are to protect your marriage. The alternative is to appease her, not express any hurt about the affair, and let her see OM as much as she likes. That situation would be intolerable for any spouse and any marriage. We are not endorsing open marriage, after all. So, in order to not tolerate the affair and their continued contact, and in order to insist that it comes to an end, you must "upset" your wife by refusing to let her do what she wants.

Exposure upsets your wife. Insisting on no contact upsets her, and so would going to Plan B if, after a sustained effort, you could not do Plan A any more - but these things must be done.

Think of it as upsetting the affair, if you prefer, but upsetting it, and invading her privacy, are absolutely essential to your marriage - for life.

Later, just before checkout, she told me the truth and refused to let me buy them. Said that it was for him as a goodbye... She has something else of his that needs to be returned and she wanted to send this with it. Something about he lost the last one... I told her that I would never tell her what to do, but I said this was a really bad idea and it is hurting me. I said if you really want to do this, then I will support you.

I also stated that if you are going to do this, please write him a goodbye letter asking to never contact her again and tell him that you no longer love him. She refused to only say that it will say "goodbye". I asked her last night if this was the way she wants closure. She said it will, but I think it will lead him on and make him think he still has a chance. I'm not far enough in the book yet to help me out with this situation. Please help

You need to knock this the heck off. After what I wrote to you earlier today about upsetting the affair, what on earth made you say you would support her in sending gifts to her boyfriend?She is so upset with me right now because I have been trying to talk her into being with me and leaving him alone. She is so depressed she is still in bed now. How do I approach her? Do I even need to worry about upsetting her? Is my focus completely off?

You need to ask her to send the No Contact letter that Dr Harley has templated in Surviving an Affair. Use the exact words there. You can find the letter by looking through the index. This is exactly what I want! but how do I get this to happen without demands?

My love for this woman is tearing me apart. I am dieing inside all over again. I know she is in withdrawal and I know her depression is killing her. She cries herself to sleep and won't let me near her. She told me today that she is still looking to move out as soon as she can, but it won't be fast enough. She
won't talk to OM because of the kids. Not because of me.

I take the kids to school every morning and I found OM waiting on the corner for her to bring my son to school. Seeing him infuriated me. He saw me and left. If she was communicating with him beyond my capabilities to monitor, he wouldn't have been there.

I know it feels like an insult, but it's a good idea to support no contact whatever the reason. You have to start somewhere. Try to control your emotional reactions the same as if you were trying to control anger. Calm yourself. Imagine a peaceful landscape etc.I truly need to manage my emotions. It has started to control me. We have decided to separate again until I can get my emotions and my financial situation in check. This is not the ideal situation, but until she has learned that she will not be happy with him either, there is very little I can do.


Good job with this double whammy of Plan A and being an Obstacle to Contact at the same time.

Try to comfort her through withdrawal even though it feels unfair. You want her to associate you with feely-goody things. Be creative. I am trying to be as caring for her feelings right now as I can and trying to put my own after hers. I am really struggling with this.

Continue working on the job situation. You will make progress and it willve you something to occupy your thoughts.

Good morning!

I know it has been quite some time since our last discussion and many things have changed, so I would like to update you. As you remember, my wife and I have been separated since September of 2015. After my plan B letter, there may have been 3 occasions where I broke communication silence and as expected, arguing happened. I tried to stay as positive as possible without turning anything back on her, yet I really wanted to know why this was all happening, but got no where. I also mentioned that I had forgiven her multiple times and would take her back when she was ready.



Finally the day before my Domestic Violence court date, She contacted me for the first time and gave me the most sincerest apology I have ever heard. Said that she was still very unhappy where she was and stated that it may not have been me, after all, that made her feel like that, but the stresses of life and the overwhelming house hold that we were trying to maintain. I told her to come back home. The charges were dismissed after several hours of waiting and stressing out. After, my mother invited her over for dinner. She stated that she wanted to come back but temporarily as roommates while she gets over the affair. I agreed but insisted that she re-read my final letter and agreed with it's requests. She did so and stated that she had some requests as well. That I find a job and keep it. That I listen to her complaints with an open heart. That I stop with all the love busters that I had done pre-breakup January 2015. I also agreed. She stated that she would do anything to gain my trust back including letting me look over her shoulder with texts, messages, and social media posts.



We are both well aware that we have a lot of hurt to overcome and this will not be easy. She stated that she needs time to heal from her recent breakup and that she is not completely over him. He and his family are not that type of people that she wants around her children and this change of status is mainly about them (her words). She feels that she will never be happy and has even mentioned suicide but would never do that because of our children. She is on depression medication and anti-anxiety. She moved out of his house Saturday. He was constantly texting her and messaging her via social media and she was allowing me to read and offer suggestion on what to reply with to maintain peace so that she could get her stuff out of his house due to his violent nature. She was finally out of his house, yet that night after she had went to bed, I took her phone to read the messages from earlier while she was getting her things. It stated that she still loved him and missed him and if things don't work out with me, she would return to him. I was upset by this and immediately brought it to her attention. I was not argumentative about it or tried to use judging words; however, I did Show her the messages and asked her to explain. She was more upset that I went behind her back to look into her phone. Said I did not trust her and showed dis-respect. Her excuse for the texts were to maintain peace. The next day, we changed her phone number and blocked him from social media and agreed that both of us would deactivate social media while we work through our problems.



The next morning, I asked to look at her phone while she woke up, and she said ok. First thing I noticed was that he had sent her a message over night on Facebook messenger. I asked her about it and she said it was impossible because he was blocked. I showed her that he was not. She refused to comment about it any further until she had woken up. She was mad. Later that day, she admitted unblocking him to view his page and comments about her. She also told him that she still loves him and misses him. He had also written on her wall that I cannot see and feared to ask her because she would get mad about trust and respect again. She later stated that she misses him and maybe coming back was not the right choice. She has been in a deep depression since. I asked her never to talk or message him again per our agreement. She stated yesterday that all I want to do is talk about rebuilding our marriage and she is highly annoyed. She isn't sure if she wants to be with me. She has started crying several times because she misses him and admits that she may never be happy. I keep asking her for time. I had her read the the first half of your article series "Coping with Infidelity" last night. This seemed to help slightly. We both deactivated our social media accounts. But right before bed, she had another episode of breaking down into tears and refused to let me comfort her. I tried to tell her, "I completely understand your feelings and respect you. This will pass with time and will get better."



It is really hard for me to have any sympathy for their affair and every time she tells me that she misses him or loves him, it breaks my heart again. However, I tell her not to stop talking to me about her feelings and what she is upset about. She has confessed to holding in all her feelings for so long for fear of hurting me or causing a conflict. So I am encouraging her to use the policy of Radical Honesty. But I am not being completely honest with her. The hurt I feel inside is extreme. I have a very hard time trusting her to be alone. She has already showen me that she is deleting messages and has lied to me. And yet, I am the bad guy who doesn't trust her and doesn't respect her. We do not sleep in the same room yet and have only been intimate once. Yesterday she stated all I want to do is talk and that is exactly what I was doing when she left me.... I agree I have a tendency to beat a dead horse. I talk way too much about this subject and how her life would be so much better if we follow your program and give me the chance.



So that's where we are.



P.S. Alcohol and drugs are no where to be found, I am committed to making God the foundation of our marriage, and I still haven't found work.

I am writing again because my wife is in real trouble. She has started sleeping till late in day, forgetting work and responsibilities. I am taking care of the kids for the most part. She stated that she is not wanting to do life anymore. I stay at her bed side for many hours trying to get her out of it. She is in complete withdrawal, from OM, from life, from me. I Just don't know what to do! I try to be kind and supportive, do any and everything she asks or needs. I'v taken her to a flea market (her favorite thing) for her to only pick out something for OM? At least she told me? she says it's her way of saying goodbye... All contact has been eliminated. Facebook deactivated and numbers changed. What do I do?

I am reading your book "Surviving an Affair". Very powerful messages. I am already half way through it. My wife has decided to leave again. She claims that she does not want to be with me and being here with me is making her even worse. I admit to pushing her to start the program with me and talk way more than I should. Sometimes it feels like a lecture. After speaking with my pastor, I have come to realize that I spent far too much time trying to fix her and her depression than actually working on myself and getting myself straight. To be very honest, I'm not sure if I was emotionally stable enough to have her back.

I just called her, and she stated that she did go to his house this morning and see him. She stated that she will be moving back with him this weekend. She will be leaving the kids in my care and all her possessions except for her clothes. This is reading out to be an exact copy of your book. I am deeply saddened by this but still have faith that one day she will come out of this fog. But I have to stop worrying about her and get myself straight. Any guidance you can offer to help me get through this would be greatly appreciated.

Hi ####
I'm taking these sentences from your letter of a few days ago: "she had some requests as well. That I find a job and keep it. That I listen to her complaints with an open heart. That I stop with all the love busters that I had done pre-breakup January 2015. I also agreed. She stated that she would do anything to gain my trust back including letting me look over her shoulder with texts, messages, and social media posts."

How were you addressing those complaints while she was with you? Even though she is in the fog, she will still be watching you to see if you are making an effort to solve the problems that she had with you in your marriage. The other man doesn't stand a chance with her, and it's likely that she will start letting you know that she is considering coming back to you. When that happens, make sure that these issues she is raising are all addressed in a way that gives her hope.

Dr. Harley

At first I pushed her away by trying to force her to take me back by continuously lecturing her on the program and telling her how much I will change. She hadn't even decided to work on the marriage yet. So this made it even easier for her to give in to him and break the silence. I have since showed her that even though she is going back to him, and as much as I don't approve of the decision, I respect it. I'm trying to make it my full time job to look for a job. One thing she told me yesterday, I'm still trying to add stipulations. I make many mistakes like this.

Here is my most recent letter to her. And I wonder if the plan B letter is something I should consider right now?

"My dearest love,
I have made many mistakes in my life and continue to do so. I have never wanted to hurt you. Everyday is an opportunity to learn and adapt and I will forever learn and adapt to find new ways to bring joy to your life. One of my greatest mistakes in life is pretending I know anything at all. When it comes to the one person in this world who has shown me what true love is, I know absolutely nothing. What i do know is that You are the master of my heart and of my world. With you standing beside me, WE can and will become the greatest love story ever written. But even the way we repair our relationship and how it is maintained should be a mutual decision and not something that I try to force. I have taken all the wrong steps, because I still tried to do what I thought was right instead of listening to your heart. With your help and your wants, needs and desires met, our lives and our children's lives will truly be happy! But it is your choice and your decision. I'm so sorry I failed you. I'm so sorry that I tried to force my views on you. I'm so sorry I gave you stipulations. I'm not a psychologist and I pretended to be one. Please think about giving me a chance to win your heart back. But I'm in no place to tell you what you want or what your feelings are. All I can do is listen to your heart and wait for my chance to prove my ability to become the man you want. You will not be changing me and I won't ever think about changing you, but the things that annoy you and upset you are all things that I will remove and replace with habits that brings happiness. I will be getting a job so I can support you. I will be finding a place for us, but it needs to be a place that you want and that you have every opinion on. So I fear that the place I get will not be to your liking. So I ask you. Please don't give up on us.

You are my greatest source of wisdom, intelligence, and love.

Love always, your husband and best friend,
#### #####
"

While she is gone, I have a lot of work to do. Get a job, find a new place, get a car, work on listening to her and refrain from making "but i will change" comments. I'm horrible at trying to be a know it all. I think I should developed the habit of saying "I'm not sure, but I can try and find out" my new saying... The guy she is with has a 5th grade education and I think it's relief for her so that she feels more intelligent. I never wanted to act like I'm smarter. But I have done just this on many occasions. I was completely wrong. She also told me that she knew I would catch her in bed with him on that day. She was also so distraught from all the stresses of life at the time and my relapse, she started the affair as a way to get away from me.

One suggestion on a possible article or topic of discussion, how to successfully gain the support of your spouse to start the program.

In reading Surviving an Affair, you'll notice that Sue didn't come to me for counseling until her relationship with the other man had completely ended. It's what I call the affair dying a natural death. This man doesn't stand a chance if you are really able to do what you put into your letter.

Thank you sir! I know I have my problems that must be fixed before anything will get better. She actually told me that she was disappointed in me that I hadn't improved myself while she was gone. I spent the entire time in depression and blaming my situation on her and him. I think I may have developed a since of worth and purpose through my wife's return and departure. So it's not all bad.

Oh and she has told me several times that she cannot see her self with this guy for much longer. But he does make her happy but doesn't provide her all the needs she requires. She is also ashamed to even let him meet her father. I know the fog is why she has left me and the kids again. I wish there was a way to show her this. She has stated many times that she values her children's happiness over her own, so why would she make her kids unhappy like this so she can be happy?

Should I try and maintain contact while we are seperated? Should I continue to pursue her? If I talk to much or bug her it will push her away right?

Are you in Plan A?

Be sure you've walked through the Exposure 101 thread and done everything suggested there. Make sure you tell people personally, yourself, rather than crossing them off the list because they already know or because somebody else has told them.

Then, go confront the other man. Tell him you love your wife and he had better get away or else. Let him know that if your marriage goes to divorce you will haul him into court during the divorce and have him testify about his relationship with your wife. Make sure everybody in his life knows about what he is doing.

Meanwhile, start being Prince Charming to your wife. Invite her to go do something with you EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. She will decline a lot, but do it anyway. Set up lots and lots and lots of things to do that she would enjoy, and ask her to do it with you. If she declines, stay calm and don't fall to pieces because that is not attractive at all. Make sure there's stuff to do just the two of you without the kids.

DO NOT FIGHT WITH HER AT ALL COSTS YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO FIGHT WITH HER IT WILL SPELL DOOM FOR YOUR MARRIAGE YOU MUST NOT EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER SAY OR DO ANYTHING THAT SHE WOULD FEEL IS DEMANDING DISRESPECTFUL OR ANGRY IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT SHE DOES OR WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE JUSTIFIED DON'T DO IT OR YOU WILL END YOUR MARRIAGE.

Meanwhile, listen to the radio show EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Have you listened to Friday's show, yet? It's still available for another hour or so. Since you are claiming that you listen to the show "every day," that means you listened to Friday's show, right? You've had three days in which to listen to it. Have you?

Nothing really new to report. I read Love Busters again and it was like reading it for the first time. So much new information that I either wasn't paying attention to or was in denial. I just got car again (POS) but it runs... I am making looking for a job a full time job.

We made plans for mothers day for her to come to my house and be with the kids. I had many things lined up and was even going to cook her dinner and fix her car. She went to church with us because the kids were putting on a show. She rushed out as soon as it ended. I was waiting on her outside with the kids. She canceled on the plans saying she was going to do something with her mother and grandmother. I did get visibly upset but did my best not to be rude or judge her.

Last night we were texting, she told me she felt guilty about not being with the kids on mother's day. I made it worse saying that I was a piece of #### father and Husband. She replied that I was a great father. My rebuttal was that, if I was... then we wouldn't be going through this. A great father puts his family before his own self. She got mad and said that I need to get a job and a different house (being evicted... Not my doing) and accept that we are not together and that she is done talking.

Today she called me and explained that yesterday was hard enough and I made it worse. That I need to get my stuff straight. She DOES NOT WANT TO WORK ON US, and her next step is getting a better job and moving out of his place to be on her own. She's frustrated that his place is the only place for her to stay and that the only problem she has over there is their constant arguing at each other. She caused all this and she will get herself out of it. I need to stop trying to woo her and stop trying to talk her back. We would have gotten a separation anyway if she didn't have the affair. If I have changed the way I have said, then I need to show it and stop talking about it. (all her words) She does not see what she is doing as being in an affair. She also stated that we should start living like married but separated? SHE IS SLEEPING WITH HIM!!!!!!!

I am trying very hard not to be judgmental. I do everything I can not to give her any backlash for what she is doing to me. Even though I am trying to forgive and let go and be a christian, I am finding it very difficult not to hate the OM. I am constantly having to ask forgiveness for some of the evil thoughts that run through my head. I have forgiven her, sometimes it is daily, but this is only because I can see a life worth living and worth the trouble it will take to get there. This was the OM's plan since they started talk way back in late 2014. She told me the last time we hung out with the kids at the park, that I needed to be nice about him when I talk to her... Am I supposed to act like this is just one big happy family? I'm sorry if this sounds like I am venting... I probably am...

One of my questions to her a couple nights ago was, "Do you think I am insane for trying to win your heart back?" She replied yes. I asked her why, she said "For everything I have done to you" I said, "I can accept that, but there is one problem with that, You are my soul mate that can never be replaced and even at my angriest, I still loved you and wanted the very best for you. So I ask you... what do you think of a love that could withstand that?"

I still very much love this woman... Why?

Hi,

We covered your last question at the very end of our radio show yesterday, and we may pick it up again today.� When a spouse is in love with an abusive or unfaithful spouse, as you are with your wife, as long as the love bank account is above the romantic love threshold, the spouse in love is trapped in a nightmare.� He can't leave because he is drawn to the spouse by romantic love, and yet at the same time he is being hurt unmercifully.� The solution to that trap is to go into plan B and wait for the dust to settle.� If you were to have absolutely no contact with her, you would find that you would be able to pull yourself together, get a job, find a place to live, and look far more attractive to your wife than you do now.� Her relationship with this other man can't possibly work for her, and as soon as you look like an attractive alternative to him, she will give you another chance.� But right now in the condition you are in, she won't give you another look.

Dr. Harley

Should I completely follow the steps for plan B as written in Surviving an Affair?

Yes. Use the template.

Has she spoken to her doctor about getting some ADs during her withdrawal?she was on one, and she started talking to the OM again and decided it was making her worse because of what he told her. So she got off it. Last time she went to the doctor, we had discussed her changing her meds or stronger dose, yet she latter told me that she didn't even bring it up to him. She really doesn't like ADS but she needs them but won't take them.

Is she still communicating with OM? She acts like they are still in contact.
yes, she is. I am stuck in a really bad situation where she has no where else to go yet, when I ask her about him and why she keeps talking to him, and how much she is hurting me from it, her reply is always, "WE ARE NOT TOGETHER!" Sorry for the caps, but she does yell. If I put her in plan B, she will be homeless and not only blame me for that, but also say that I am controlling her and taking her kids away. I'm starting to feel hopeless. She has told me her plan is to leave with me and delete Facebook and change her number when we move so that no one can contact her. But for now, they are still very much in contact.
When will you be moving? Hopefully in the next couple days. I am going up there tomorrow to put all the paperwork and deposits in.

Don't let her try and guilt you into feeling guilty about putting pressure on the affair. You keep telling her that her affair is causing you so much pain.Thank you so much for this! Her affair is feeling more and more like it's my fault or that I'm the one who did it. She is constantly saying that she has been trying to get away from me for years and now that she did, she's right back to her miserable life. I have tried to paint her a beautiful picture of our new life together, but she gets upset and says "I DON'T WANT THAT FROM YOU!" Again, sorry for the caps. She does repeat herself a lot on this saying that she doesn't want me to make her happy and similar.

How is your Plan A going? What are you doing? Have you committed any love busters?I am trying very hard at being the best husband I can be, and yet there are a few ENs that she won't allow me to meet. Recreation, physical intimacy, and affection. The recreational activities are being turned down quite often, but I keep trying and believe it will get better. No hugs are allowed, so touching of any kind is banned. I do provide her with encouraging words, and try and tell her how great I think she is, but she takes it like I am trying to get her back and tells me to stop. I am doing all the house work and keeping up after the kids. I try to do small things for her, make her breakfast, cup of coffee, clean out her car, wash her clothes... She said it feels like i am kissing her A##. When I finally start to earn a paycheck, my plans are to show her financial responsibility and support, but also I would like to start taking her out. I could use some advise on this. We have always went to the bar or go out to eat. I'd love to be able to take her to other places and start having fun.

The LBs are constantly on my mind. I am trying everything to just listen, don't tell her what to do or how to feel, and only say things like "when I feel like this..." or "if you would like... how would you feel if... what's your opinion on...". Angry outbursts have almost completely gone away, but it's really tough when I get attacked verbally. Recently I have requested her help in identifying when I do some of these things, not to get back together, just make it easier on her while she is here. She has pointed out that I am a know it all, and that I always have to be right. I told her that she is right and it's something I need to remove. It is one of my worst habits. I think I may have actually opened the door to asking her to fill out the LBs questionnaire.

This is all so very tough when she feels like she is forced to be here and that her only hope is to get a job and move out.

Nobody is shunning you. If you don't post for weeks and then show up on a holiday weekend, you are not likely to get loads of attention.Thank you. I was just looking at the last couple months and several weeks without a reply. I think I was just being self centered and depressed about everything. But I do feel like this thread is far too long and that some people may not want to read it all...

The OW you are referring to is the OM if I follow this correctly. I'm from North Carolina. We pay special attention to these sort of things!yes you are correct. It was a typo/mistake on my part. Lol my Dad is in NC and his wife. When I caught the affair, I escaped to there for a couple months to get my head straight.

You need to accept the fact that you can not decide for other people. You can make things the best they can possibly be on your side of the fence, and your WW may still choose the other. Eventually she will likely come to her senses. That is why affairs die a natural death. But in the short term, she is in the driver's seat and will do what she will do. Presently, she is somewhere between withdrawal and conflict. The fact that she blames you is actually a good thing, because she isn't totally in withdrawal. If she were, she would just leave and say nothing. So you need to weather the storm and do nothing to push her toward withdrawal. She might yet leave, but you should not throw any love busters at her. Of course, this is difficult in the teeth of an ongoing affair. But as long as she is continuing to remain in conflict, you have a better chance at making love bank deposits than if she moves into withdrawal. Thank you. I was in the assumption that she was in full withdrawl and also in DTs from the affair.I think I may have actually deposited some last night while she was crying and being hopelessly lost. I tried to keep my distance but spoke to her very soft and listened far more than I spoke. I offered no kind of mind changing or any advice, just that I am here for you and I know you don't want it. I will not leave you and will do anything I can to help ease the pain. She did mention that she does not want me or my help. I said that I understand, but I am still here for you.

She did go to the bar this weekend...

I didn't ask you that, exactly.

She was drinking heavily when you first came here. How much is she drinking now? Does she drink at home? Have you accepted the fact that she's an alcoholic?

Can someone help me with this conversation? Tell me if I have done something wrong?

I was asking for her guidance on a place where we will be staying... Budgeting is going to be tight. I found a place slightly out of our price range.

Her:If it's out of budget then why show it to me??

Me: I was kinda hoping you could help me come up with a way to get it done...

Her:What like get a job? When that happens, I'm not staying with u. U only make so much money. U can't "make" something happen if u don't have the money for it!

Me:I am not trying to get you upset. And no I am not referring to gaining extra money or you getting a job. I know that is the goal but for now, you are correct. I can only make so much and we have to stay within that. I was just asking for your wisdom and trying to make the best possible decision and I can't do it without your help and guidance

Her: Well the fact is, I don't want to help u! That is your responsibility to get what u can afford. I'm just going for the kids! I will always be upset with u! I don't do have anything to do with u!

Me: Why are you upset with me?

Her: Because I am having to live with u so I can have my kids!!! We have already discussed this!

Her: If it was up to me I would not be moving! But I have no choice!!

Her: And if I don't go, then I will be the bad person!!

Me: You do have a choice. I am not forcing you to go. I am helping you with everything and yet I am the one being blamed. If I am blamed for helping then I don't want to help. I am offering you my help. I am not forcing you to do anything

Me: Why am I the bad guy?

Her: U are forcing me because I will LOSE me kids if I don't go! And u were the one that said if I went u were paying my bills, I did not ask u to do that! I will be HOMELESS if I don't go!!!!!!! U still have no clue what I am going through!!

Me: I honestly do have an idea what you are going through. But you are right in that I don't know everything that you are going through and I have been asking you to give me your feelings. I want to feel what you are! I am so sorry you feel like I am going to make you homeless. Why would I ever do that? This is why I have offered my help! I'm not pushing it on you! You will NEVER lose your kids!!! I will never keep them from you! But I don't want them kept from me either!

Me: I am not forcing you to do anything!!! I have no idea how I am going to prove myself to you that I am NOT trying to hurt you or force you into anything!

Her: If I don't go then the kids don't go either. I have told u how I feel but u are not listening!! IM GOING FOR THE KIDS, NOT FOR ME, NOT FOR YOU!!

Me: Ok then what am I supposed to do?

Her: I'm at work, I'm not talking to u anymore! If u open your ears, u may start to understand!!!!!

Me: I have listened to everything you have said and know what you are telling me to be 100% true! My ears have always been opened and I do understand!! Why would I do any of this if I didnt? Why would I offer my help to you?

Me: I am asking you to help me feel your feelings so that maybe I can get a deeper understanding of your pain. What is it going to take for you to hate me less?

You should have given up right at the beginning when she made it clear that she did not want to talk about this. She's quite right: you should not be choosing a home out of your price range.

Don't expect her to cooperate with your plans. Be grateful that she is agreeing to move away with you. That is your opportunity to break this affair and start a new life. Stop debating whether you are the bad guy or whether she would lose her kids. The conversation should never have got to that level.

Make good decisions about moving, and see them through. She is still in her affair. She spent the night with this man just days ago. You cannot expect any sense or cooperation from her. You need to move away and get a job whether she goes with you or not, so do that. Those two things (the move and the job) are the minimum conditions that can end her affair and help you start a new life.

Thank you so much for your guidance!!! If/ when she brings up that I am forcing her or that she has no choice, I will keep quiet and just nod or let her know I'm paying attention.

the other day we were arguing over custody of the kids, same as the messages up above.

It's been a couple weeks since my last post and I have been in contact with Dr Harley...

If the conversation above is any indicator, she doesn't just "bring this up". She says it when you push her buttons. Therefore, you need to not push her buttons. Imagine how you will feel if she pursues the line she was pushing in that conversation: "If I don't go then the kids don't go either."

Do not provoke her into going to court to get a ban on moving the kids any distance. Do not have conversations that remind her that you are "forcing" her to go with you - even though you are not forcing her. Stop having these arguments. Seize the opportunity of having her move with you, and do nothing to reverse that situation.

Why were you arguing over this since she has agreed to go with you?

Stop it. There is no need to aggravate this delicate situation.

Here is the conversation I have had with Dr. Harley...

It's been a couple weeks since my last post and I have been in contact with Dr Harley...

How does she pay for her alcohol if she doesn't work?

You posted the long series of correspondence with Dr Harley at the beginning of May. When you came back this week, you said

That made it sound as if you had been in contact with Dr Harley during the last couple of weeks while you have been absent. I was trying to find out what he had told you during the last couple of weeks.

Since you haven't been in contact during that absence, the reposting of all those letters wasn't necessary.

Quoted from Dr. Harley,

There is nothing you can do to prevent her from doing that.� Her relationship with the other man is the most painful thing she can do to you, but she doesn't care how you feel right now.� If you want her back, you must let her affair die a natural death which will be very painful for you until it's over.� On the other hand, you could go into plan B, not seeing or talking to her, and using a mediator to work things out between you and the children.� When you finally have a job, you will be doing something to distract you from this torment.� Just make sure everyone you know is aware of her affair, and the fact that she spends nights with him while married to you.

Will she go out on dates with you?If it's not with the kids, she refuses to even be in the same room as me.

How is the job hunt going?Found a great job, I start Monday in a city 1.5 hr north of us and relocating family as soon as I can find a place. Have you found an AD that works for you?No, it seems like everything makes it worse. Cilexa started to make me feel a little better, but panic attacks started happening, so I got off them. Have you re-read SAA the story of Sue and Jon? No, but I will. I remember Jon and I are in similar positions, and my spouse and Sue are tit for tat on the affair, but there are some differnces. My wife claims that the affair was her way of leaving and she left him in fear of losing her kids.

What can you do to make love bank deposits? To be honest, this is my question. She gets mad at any show of affection. I can't touch her. Intimate conversation is met with a get out comment. I truly am lost on this.

If you do not have a job, finding one is priority number one.

Even asked me to sleep in the bed with her (still no contact). I declined, not because I didn't want to, but because I didn't want her to feel uncomfortable.

Follow the plan. Feelings follow actions.

I'm trying to understand this. So follow the plan... Continue plan A, be the best at being a husband and father... ie. Maintain house and kids, sneak in an EM when I can or when she'll let me, listen to her and STOP TRYING TO FIX EVERYTHING!!! Manage finacials and prove responsibly over bills. Never demand, judge, or have angry outburst. Try to remove the annoying habits (know it all, fix everything, assumptions). Am I close?

Yes. Follow plan A. Do all of these things you mentioned as best you can. Try to focus on highest needs met along with no LBs. Yes. She doesn't need you to be smart, she needs you to meet her needs.

Feelings follow actions? Kinda lost on that. Do you think she's starting to have feelings again or because she is talking to me again, that her feelings are being bottled up? She said that the only reason she is here is to be with her kids. That she still doesn't want to be here. Did not ask her this but she told me when I asked her how she was doing.

Should I ask her to make a choice on moving out or staying with me for me and her... not for the kids?

Court her - get her to fall in love with you.

Why would you do this?

How will you feel if she responds by moving out? Would you rather have her move out than stay for the kids? If you would really rather she left than stayed for the kids, then you don't need our permission to issue this ultimatum. If you are prepared to face that possible consequence, then by all means go through with that.

Plan A is based on the assumption that your wife is not all in with the marriage; if she were, you would be in Recovery, and not Plan A. Plan A is designed to give her the best "you". This might cause her to end the affair, or if, as it seems, it has already ended, it will encourage her to reinvest in the marriage, because of your kindness and consideration.

You've managed to get her to move with you, and, apparently, to give up the affair. This gives you an enormous advantage that you can capitalise on. Having achieved this much, why would you issue an ultimatum that if she isn't in love with you now (and her depression has a lot to do with that) she should leave?

Being in love with you is not a choice she can make. It is a feeling that only you can instill in her. So if you want her to be in love with you, court her. Don't issue ultimatums. That will only drive her away -- especially since it is something she just can't choose to give to you.

I initially stayed with markos because of the kids. And his paycheck. These were the logical parts of our relationship, and a big draw to me. Don't discount the logical part of your relationship with her. It's vital. The Romantic love will come as long as she never has contact with the OM again and you continue to court her. Follow the plan.

My depression still seems to be very real.

Are you on antidepressants? If you aren't, you need to get on them. If you are, you need to see a doctor and have them adjusted.

If it made things worse, then they were the wrong ones for you. They shouldn't make you feel worse. There are a wide variety of anti depressants, and your doctor can help you find the right one. The antidepressant should just even out the highs and the lows, making it possible for you to make clear-headed decisions that would otherwise seem impossible.

A couple weeks ago, I invited her mother to spend the weekend with us starting this Friday. Last night she called to confirm and somehow the weekend turned into all week? I did not agree to this nor was my input asked for or heard. I'm a little upset about it but trying to keep it in.

Regarding gifts, one of the things that I have learned is that my wife loves frequent small gifts. They don't have to be expensive for her. If I just bring her a soda when I stop by the store she likes that. Or a bottle of nail polish or a little bit of chocolate. Or flowers from Wal-Mart, which are very affordable. She also loves for me to leave her a note when I leave for work in the morning.

Anything to show her I'm thinking about her makes love bank deposits, and those add up over time.

When you POJAed the original invitation with your wife were you specific about the length of the visit?

When you POJAed the original invitation with your wife were you specific about the length of the visit?

Yes, the conversation was actually, "Hey girl, how would you feel about inviting your mom over for the weekend? Next Friday - Sunday? Maybe she could even go to church with us? It's just a thought and we would have a few extra dollars that weekend?"

She called her mother directly and offered the idea to her... That was almost 2 weeks ago though. We have hit on the topic a few times since then, never changing anything other than a start time... Last week to this week. But last night they (her mother and my spouse) decided that it would now be a week's visit. Not asking me anything. In fact, I had to over hear the conversation and then ask for the details... She didn't act like she was even going to mention it.

She is in the "I don't care" state. Nearly every question or option I bring to her is met with an "I don't care" or "It doesn't matter" answer. I can't remember exactly where this is in. Is she coming out of withdrawal?


Sorry for the segway... Tonight I will ask her to sit down and talk with me about it. I am just trying to build as many love units as I can right now.

It almost feels like she is making a constant conscious decision not to fall in love or allow me close enough to meet her intimate ENs. It truly feels like she is fighting me on it?

Of course it annoys her. You are filling her lovebank, and she doesn't want you to do that. Markos used to write me lovenotes, and I'd tear them into tiny pieces and throw them away because it was so ANNOYING for him to do something I liked.

Keep doing the things that you know she likes. Does she like lovenotes? Write them (she may throw them away). Does she like flowers? Buy them (she may shred them). Does she like back rubs? Reach out and offer her one (she may brush you off). Be the man that continually offers to meet her emotional needs, even when rebuffed.

Does she like seeing you play with her children? Odds are she does. Play with them. Plan family dates. Markos used to do this to get close to me.

My wife and I got into a conversation last night about emotional needs that really didn't feel much like a conversation, but more of a warning from her. I have noticed that she is feeling down and barely leaves the couch or even gets out of bed before noon. So i asked her last night if she would talk to me. She said no. I asked why? She said she just doesn't want to talk to me. I left it alone for a little while but then brought up that I have been noticing her mood and that I am concerned. She again said that she doesn't want to talk to me. When I asked why this time, she said it was because she doesn't like me very much.... I left it alone again for a while.

On our nightly ritual, just as we are laying down, I cuddle with her and tell her that I love her and I don't know what to do or how to make us better but I am trying so very hard. She said that I am not respecting her wishes of not being touched. I said That one of my needs is physical intimacy. I said that I am trying everything during the day to stay away and give her space but at night, this is the only time you allow me to get near. She said that she is not allowing me, that I am forcing myself on her. That I am pushing her further away.

I'm not exactly sure of what to do at this point

Has she told you, explicitly, that she does not wish to be touched by you?

So I take it now, I'm not supposed to hug her or touch her or offer to give back rubs or foot rubs?

What would be off limits? Should I not touch her? try to hug her? She has told me not to do several things that I know builds love units. Says that it annoys her.

Of course it annoys her. You are filling her lovebank, and she doesn't want you to do that. Markos used to write me lovenotes, and I'd tear them into tiny pieces and throw them away because it was so ANNOYING for him to do something I liked.

Keep doing the things that you know she likes. Does she like lovenotes? Write them (she may throw them away). Does she like flowers? Buy them (she may shred them). Does she like back rubs? Reach out and offer her one (she may brush you off). Be the man that continually offers to meet her emotional needs, even when rebuffed.

You asked this only a few days ago:

Prisca replied:

There are differences here from what you have been doing by spooning her in bed:

The first is that Prisca encouraged you to keep on doing things you know she like; not to keep on doing things she has told you she dislikes.

The second is that, when you "reach out and offer" to give a foot rub, you are offering to meet one of her needs, if she will let you. You are not - at least primarily - seeking to get your own need met. I'm sure that it does in fact give you pleasure to give her a back rub, as it is a form of touching - but you are primarily giving her the pleasure, not taking it for yourself. Giving her the pleasure is a very Plan A thing to do.

The third is that there is a clear difference between offering, and simply going ahead and doing something simply because you want to do it, for yourself.

You said "She has told me not to do several things that I know builds love units." - yes, but you should be doing things that build love units for her. If they also build them for you, that is fabulous. However, the goal, while she is withdrawn and depressed, is not to seek to get your own needs met, especially not in a way that annoys her.

She said that I am not respecting her wishes of not being touched. I said That one of my needs is physical intimacy.

Do you understand why that was not the right way to answer?

ETA: nevermind, looks like SugarCane has explained it well and you do understand.

The other thing about the spooning:
Do Plan A properly, and stop when you cannot do it any more.

My wife had an episode just like the one you are describing from a councilor

A counsellor assaulted her?

I'm sorry to hear that things are not going well.

I'm having difficulty understanding your post. You say "I was told last night that the things I am doing for her and trying to stay on top of things is getting annoying" but also "When I ask whats wrong or if she is aggravated or mad at me, she says "no" " - so which is it? Did you she say that you are annoying, or not? If so, what things was she referring to? What are you doing that annoys her?

By the way, she's aggravated because she is in withdrawal, and still depressed. You don't seem to understand this.

Hey all!

Trying to woo my wife isn't going to well. I was told last night that the things I am doing for her and trying to stay on top of things is getting annoying. She seems very aggravated most of the time and keeps her answers very short. When I ask whats wrong or if she is aggravated or mad at me, she says "no" as well as "I don't want to talk to you".

Is she on some ADs while she goes through withdrawal?

Sounds like its going great.
After withdrawal comes conflict. This is when the wives have enough love bank units to come out swinging! They get annoyed because what you are doing is Working! So, they will try to say and do things to hurt you to get you to stop.

I would stop asking so much about her being annoyed or anything and just keep talking abut things she is interested in.

Just stay cool and keep going! When a man is wooing a WW, when she comes to conflict she does feel really annoyed by love so this is just par for the course and a great sign.

I can't read back through your whole thread right now, so please remind me why he is able to reach her, and why her phone has not been changed - or even binned.

I can not see why WW needs to know this info hotel info now.

I don't either... Well now I do...

I changed the location of the hotel and wanted to see the reaction... Today she messaged me rather rude and wanted the new name and address of the hotel we will be staying at. I tried to stall but she was even more aggravated by this.