You mentioned in your first post that you had read the book His Needs Her Needs years ago.

You need to be aware that HNHN is really just one half of Dr. Harley's program.

The other half is in the book Love Busters, and, friend, YOU NEED IT! Love Busters is the key to learning why your wife doesn't want to do this program with you. If you would like to get her to follow the program with you, you need to figure out the material in that book and put it into practice. You will probably also need the help Dr. Harley offers each day on the radio, so do you have the app installed, and are you listening, daily?

She does not want to go to the beach.I will go on anti-depressants. I took vitamin D all winter and I do everything else on my daily regimen faithfully. When she broke up the regimen by refusing to go with me as planned in Dec.(a crucial month for me) this started a downward spiral that I have not been able to reverse and consequently we have had a rough winter (this is why it seems not in the best interest of our marriage to me). I have a Dr. appointment scheduled for the 16th. Yes I have, and have read, and am giving my best effort to following the counsel in LoveBusters. I explained above that my wife has not been committed to 15hrs/wk UA time since before we had our third child. I have been trying to reach that level for years but the ONLY time we reach it is when I can get her away from the house and kids for at least 1 overnight. Yesterday we planned an overnight trip for Mon-Tues. doing something she wants to do but it involves kids on the other end so it probably will not reach the goal. What she will commit to the rest of the week I do not know. She does not follow through with the weekly UA schedule thing.

Your wife does not want to spend time with you because of the constant lovebusters. 'Giving your best effort' is not enough, you must eliminate them completely.

Even the above post comes across to me as selfish and demanding, and seems to blame your wife for your depression, not being enthusiastic about what you want her to be enthusiastic about, and not following through with UA time....which she is not going to want to do if you make it unpleasant for her, who would???. If I get that feeling from a simple paragraph, I can only imagine what a whole date night is like.

Last night we had a big fight and now this morning she is demanding I move out today. I already apologized first thing this morning 2x. Should I comply?

ij, if you want your wife to follow this program, you need to start SUCCEEDING at following the Love Busters part of the program, IMMEDIATELY. I would get an email out to Dr. Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com RIGHT THIS MINUTE describing the situation to him and asking him for help to eliminate your own Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts. If you can't stop these or won't stop these, you aren't safe for your wife.

You have got to make some progress on this program right now and stop whining about what your wife is or isn't doing. She is not motivated to follow this program because you are not following this program - you are demanding, disrespectful, and angry.

The fights are like nuclear warfare - everybody loses. Most especially you. You have got to learn how to never have another fight with her again as long as you live no matter what she does.

You did not answer my question. Are you saying you will let Harley answer it? Should I move out?

I am sitting next to markos, and he wants me to tell you that NO, he did not answer your question. He gave you vital information that you need to act on immediately. Will you?

I see no indication of you avoiding lovebusters at all. You commit several lovebusters in this post by attempting to blame her for your depression because she would not go on a trip with you in December. Then you pick a fight with her by not letting her sleep alone. What in the world??


Given the lovebusters that you commit and the way you employ the MB program as a baseball bat over her head, this is not surprising. You must start using the program yourself if you expect her to want to be with you.

Did she also tell you that even though I never lost my temper and was not loud or threatening throughout the argument and never laid a hand on her that night (and never have) that she shoved me backwards when we were 3/4 the way up the stairs? Probably not. Thank God He kept me from falling. If I had been seriously injured who would be providing for her and my kids? I am sitting on the toilet as I type this because my gut is wrenching. Should I subject myself to anymore of this pain? Or any pain she may inflict in the future? Believe me I understand the whole not being attracted issue. That is the core. I started out asking you if I should separate from her for exactly that reason. Now here we are, full circle. Her behaviors are not attracting me to her enough to want to stay near her anymore. I understand my behaviors are bringing this on myself but the reality check of a separation may be necessary for protection of my health.

From your perspective it was "just a trip". From my perspective it was far more, as I explained above. To you, I am blaming her for my depression; to me, I am holding her accountable for not following through on an agreement that treats my depression. When she refused to go she behaved like I did not exist and that LB has had major consequences.

Not used to typing on the phone lost a long post. Please read this this morning and every day, I am too. The Conversation is Boring

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html

And listen to the radio show. Let Dr. H talk you down from this and build you up. Not that you want to read my mess I was in your W's position. But I wrote to Dr. H twice and he gave me great advice that helped me in many situations.

There is hope let these folks guide in turning this around! You don't ever need to feel like this again!

Can anyone explain to me why Harley allows for separation on grounds of persistent and long-term neglect of emotional needs for women and not for men? Are not the effects just as devastating to the marriage?

Have you written Dr. Harley and asked him?
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Yes, you were threatening when you followed her into the other room and forced yourself on her. You picked the fight by demanding [once again!] that she sleep with you. *YOU* are not a safe person. Dr. Harley would tell you to stop lovebusting her and work on your marriage. Of course she doesn't meet your needs, you have PUSHED HER AWAY WITH YOUR LOVEBUSTERS.

If you want your wife to use the MB program, then you need to use it yourself. All you have demonstrated to her are selfish demands and disrespectful judgements in the name of Marriage Builders.

Do you want to have a great marriage? Then start by eliminating YOUR OWN lovebusters. Stop whining and start using the program.


Reality is that the only person hurting your health is YOU by stubbornly insisting you have to go to the beach and not looking for solutions that are good for your marriage. If you want your wife to go on trips with you, then you need to smarten up and STOP lovebusting her!

Because he believes men are tougher and usually when they get on board with the program, they can lead their marriage out of the ditch. In your case, you have never used Marriage Builders [other than to demand that your wife use it which is a violation of MB rules] so you have a great opportunity to fix your marriage if you will stop lovebusting your wife and focus on ATTRACTING HER.

If you were a woman being asked out on a date would you go out with the man you see on your thread? You are demanding, selfish, disrespectful, whiny and make unflattering comments about your wife. What woman would be attracted to that?

Indiana, you see what she does that hurts you, but you are blind to what you are doing that is killing her. You don't realize how bad you poke bully her with your arguments and gaslighting. When you verbally bully her she has no way to protect herself. You entice a conversation in the guise of Marriage Builders and slap her around with warped interpretations. Don't think for a minute that it isn't abuse and control. She is in a powerless position, trying to cry foul, but you keep poking her. It is Coercive, manipulative and abusive of power. She has tried the accommodation route and it's killing her. I have not seen one statement in any of your posts that shows even a hint of thoughtfulness, goodwill, acceptance, or consideration toward your wife or her perspective. There is a lot of hope for you both if you, Indiana, can learn how to correctly apply Marriage Builders principles.

Please let Dr. Harley help you both. There is hope..

POJA allows for your wife (or yourself) to change her mind. Her changing her mind is not a LB but an opportunity for you to try to find a solution that you are BOTH enthusiastic about.

You holding her accountable is the LB here (Selfish demand and Disrespectful Judgement). Even if she was enthusiastic at one point, she can change her mind and should not be afraid of repercussions from you.

Please contact Dr. Harley. His input would really help you get started.

Many people offered other suggestion for a trip that would be a sunny destination, that would not be at a beach. I do not believe you have responded to those. You keep saying that it treats your depression, yet stick to the need to go to a beach and do not respond to other suggestions that involve sunny destinations but not a beach. Tell me, how does a *beach* treat your depression? You told us in your very first post why you choose to go to the beach, and it has nothing to do with treating your depression. It is because you get more aroused there. So let's drop this whole beach treating your depression idea because you cannot manipulate the board into believing that you must go to the BEACH to treat your depression. Drop it. We don't buy it.

Are you familiar with the POJA? How have you attempted to negotiate a solution to this with your wife? Have you offered any other suggestions that she might be enthusiastic about? All we see here is you trying to control and manipulate her into continuing to go to a BEACH vacation with you, which she is not (understandably) enthusiastic about.

With regards to the POJA, Dr Harley does not state that if an agreement is made it cannot be changed. Certainly, anyone can change their mind at any time about what they are enthusiastic about. Even if your wife was enthusiastic about this decision at one time, she is not now. That is NOT a lovebuster or abuse. She is simply no longer enthusiastic about it. Using the rules of POJA you would need to renegotiate a new solution that you are BOTH happy with, not strongarm her into doing something she is now unenthusiastic about.

IJ, can you state the steps for finding joint agreements here, from memory?

No, you don't get to twist Marriage Builders terminology to manipulate your wife into just doing what you want. Won't work here.

Your wife refusing to do something she doesn't want to do is not independent behavior, and it is not a lovebuster.

Would you like to actually learn how to use the program?

As of now, I see no reason your wife should stay with you.