Dr. Harley,
My wife and I are 55 years old and have been married 33 years. When we dated she wore contact lenses regularly and weighed 155(she claims 160) at 5ft.8in. She began to gain weight after the birth of our 3rd child 25 years ago, (we have 7 children, the youngest has Down Syndrome) and she stopped wearing contact lenses.
Approximately 20 yearss ago we came across your book His Needs/Her Needs and learned many things, including that I needed to be honest with her regarding how I was feeling about her appearance. This was very painful for her to hear which she communicated very clearly to me, even suggesting that her weight was "none of my business" and proceeded to act on that, withholding almost all information, not raising the subject herself, and secretly eating high caloric "goodies". I avoided the topic for months at a time but when the pain became too great I would try again to communicate my feelings. I wish I could say the resulting discussions over the years were all safe and cheerful, but that was not the case.
She continued to gain weight to a point I am certain ws in excess of 200 (she claims it only broke 200 during pregnancy). Since the birth of our last child 16 years ago, she has managed, painfully slowly to bring it down to 185, while medically speaking there is nothing to prevent her losing weight. Somewhere during this period I ceased to be aroused by her appearance and getting me aroused has required increasingly more effort for her, which she doesn't like and occasionally complains about.
We have tried a few times to watch movies with sex scenes and they were arousing but she felt too uncomfortable. For vacation we travel to the Caribbean where plenty of women show their fit bodies. It is easier to be aroused there, but she won't go as often as I would like and what about the rest of the year?
Approximately 5 years ago she told me I should prepare myself for the possibility that she might be overweight the rest of our lives. After that I began to watch videos with attractive actresses (not pornography) and masturbate when my wife was not around, about 1-2 times per month on average. This was not a strict secret, I would not volunteer, but if she would ask me I would tell her. About a year ago she became very offended about this practice, insisting that it must stop, talking of divorce. (She has talked of divorce periodically throughout the last 16 years). I know I am failing to care but I so much need to be aroused by what I see.
Five months ago extended family issues required that we be separated for about 3 weeks, during which time she lost a noticeable 4 lbs. I felt encouraged, but within 2 weeks it was back and I felt worse than ever, developing an almost constant knot in my stomach. (She also is suffering with foot problems, due in part to carrying excess weight for so many years). Shortly thereafter she discovered evidence that I had masturbated while watching a movie in her absence. Being distraught, she claimed that she regained the weight in part because I have been irritable and angry our whole marriage. However, those love busters set in after the appearance problems began.
But no matter, over the last 4 months I have been diligently removing anger from my life, apologizing for any form of it she identifies. Even though she did not ask for it, I also gave her the DVD player so that I can not watch movies. However, when I ask her for some show of good faith that she will lose all excess weight and keep it off the rest of our lives, she says she can not make a guarantee. Any verbal assurances are no comfort, I have heard them many times before. Writing the letter you recommend did not seem necessary because we are able to talk about this civilly at times.
So my first question to you concerns separation. I suggested to my wife (calmly) that due to the fact that she did lose weight when we were apart last time we might agree to separate until she can demonstrate that the weight is gone for good. We would still maintain 15 hours per week for AO. She does not like this suggestion at all, saying that it is the ultimate selfish demand and if I separate from her it will signal the end of the marriage. Would you recommend separation to break the grip of this long practiced independent behavior?
Relatedly, what role does masturbation play in troubled marriages when you are staying together and trying to work things out. For example, it has happened that after 2-4+ days of no sex and ongoing conflict that I will ask her how she would feel if I masturbate. She will reply "I don't care". However, afterward she will express displeasure. How do I find that balance point between necessary sexual tension that motivates me to resolve the conflict and relieving tension so that the conflict can be resolved?
I understand both these situations to be instances of appropriate exceptions to the POJA that are not meant to be permanent.
I want to stay with my wife, Dr. Harley. We have both worked and sacrificed a lot so that we could enjoy these years after child rearing together. If this is not resolved permanently and soon the likelihood of more serious health problems (ie. type 2 diabetes or bleeding ulcers) will increase and could affect all future enjoyment.
Thank you for your help.

Okay, for starters, STOP watching movies with sex scenes? Why make a bad problem worse? If your wife doesn't like you enough to lose weight for you in the first place, isn't that just going to make her feel worse? You have to give your spouse a reason to want to do things for you - you are her motivator.

Haven't read your whole post since it's a massive wall of text, but that's the first thing that jumped out at me.

Separation: Dr. Harley almost never recommends that men separate. And he recommends that spouses who separate NEVER discuss it with their spouse ahead of time.

Dr. Harley has a three article series on separation called When to Call it Quits that you should read:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi8111_quit.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit2.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit3.html

Dr. Harley's Policy of Sexual Exclusivity states:


Dr. Harley's policies were developed by studying couples with good marriages and couples with bad marriages. Don't expect to have a good marriage or to be able to get what you need in marriage without following all of the policies.

Closely related is Dr. Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement:


Read the link here to find out more about both of these policies.

Also, I've never heard this described as a "policy," but Dr. Harley clarifies that if your spouse breaks the rules/policies, don't break the rules yourself, because that will just make the problems worse. The only few exceptions he makes are for ultra serious situations like infidelity.

Here's another article from Dr. Harley you should read:


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html

I think this would be worth following in your situation. Is your wife in love with you? Definitely not - she clearly hates you! Follow the plan to get your wife to fall in love with you and THEN see how willing she is to lose weight for you.

By the way, the number one cause of depression for women is their relationship with their husband or boyfriend. It's clear her relationship with you is not happy for her, which could easily cause depression, which could easily cause weight gain. Women certainly find it much easier to lose weight when they are not depressed!

Before Dr. Harley would advise a man to separate, he typically requires the man to follow the program flawlessly.

Areas you need to work on:
1. Your Angry Outbursts. This is the number one issue.
2. Your Disrespectful Judgements towards your wife.
3. Ogling other women.
4. Porn habit and masturbation -- you have set up a situation in which you not only repulse your wife, but made it impossible for her to ever attract you. It's called the contrast effect.

I suggest you show your wife this program, and apologize to her. Explain to her that you understand that you have been disrespectful to her all these years, and have caused her great pain. Explain that you are going to use this program to learn how to care for her, and that you are committed to never having another angry outburst or disrespectful judgement toward her again. Invite her to hold you accountable on this.

And then follow the program and cause your wife to fall back in love with you. She will be more motivated to have sex with you and to lose weight when you have done so.

I'd kick my husband to the curb if he made such a repulsive comment.

When you got married, you agreed to let your wife be your sole source of sexual gratification. To "forsake all others." It's monstrously abusive to expect your wife to permit you to be aroused by other women. If you want someone else, get a divorce and marry them.

"When you got married, you agreed to let your wife be your sole source of sexual gratification"

Yes, I understand. We have a very active sex life. It is my #3 need for an attractive spouse that is going unmet.

I'm not sure you understand me.

When you got married, you agreed to let your wife be your ONLY source of sexual gratification. You agreed to not look at other women for arousal. But you did it anyway. And you tried to compel your wife to participate in it.

I imagine she is extremely hurt by this.

How this "compelling" my wife? We tried it together and when she didn't like it, we stopped. I feel like you have not really read my letter and are accurately representing what Dr. Harley would say. I know Dr. Harley doesn't say not to talk about separating with your spouse.

Dr. Harley talks about separating when there some type of abuse. Otherwise, a separation would be harmful and you shouldn't be talking about it. Obviously you can't fix a m marriage if you are not there.

Please pay attention to what Markos and Prisca are telling you because they know Dr. Harley's stance on just about everything.

Dr. Harley told me in a personal private phone call in 2011 that he almost never tells men to separate and that regardless of gender he tells them not to discuss separation ahead of time.

I'm pretty sure he repeated this to me on the radio the same year, around the same time, and this is a recording of it:

http://marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03332
http://marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03333
http://marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03334

Why did you even try it when you promised not to do anything like this when you got married?

I don't think you understand sexual exclusivity. I imagine your wife feels terrible about this sort of thing, like most women, and it sounds like you haven't the slightest idea how hurtful this is! I assure you it is much more hurtful than extra weight on your wife.

Sexual exclusivity means don't get aroused by looking at other women.

"Forsaking all others" means don't get aroused by looking at other women. Did your wedding include the phrase "forsaking all others"? Marriage means promising you don't get your sexual arousal from other people.

Markos is correct, he has made this statement many, many times on the radio. Any regular listener can tell you this. You have no reason to separate. It would further damage your marriage.

What is your REASON for wanting to separate?

We were apart, and she lost weight. So separating is a way of breaking the grip of this long-term independent behavior. For some reason she seems to be able to lose weight when we are apart. The reason for separating is: it worked last time.

Did you read these, yet?

Did you read this link, yet?

Did you read this, yet?

The answers are in the links that have been provided.

Dr. Harley would advise that you do not do this.

I realize I have been breaking the promise of exclusivity in the last 5 years, but my wife's promise to care was broken years before that and has carried on for many years.

I hate to get all psychobabbly, but this really sounds like "enmeshment." Can we talk about one person's failings without talking about the other person's failings? It doesn't matter why. What matters is that nearly 100% of women hurt terribly from something like this.

This is like saying "My marriage had a broken leg, so in response I broke both of its arms, the other leg, and shot it in the chest." If one person makes a mistake, the other person doesn't make it better by bringing in additional mistakes. "My wife has a cigarette addiction, so in response I took up heroin."

I'm betting your wedding vows didn't include anything about weight but did include the phrase "forsaking all others."

Marriages don't get better unless you start correcting the problems, one by one, and in the right order. Dragging in another problem in defense just makes the whole thing unsolvable.

Do you know what Dr. Harley says about the contrast effect?

I have read all of the articles and links. I did give up the DVD player and have resolved to stop all angry outbursts. That is my part, I am not ignoring it. But what about her show of good faith in meeting my emotional need for an attractive spouse? She is neglecting my need. Yes I know about the contrast effect.

You have no reason to separate. I lost weight when my H and I were separated too, because I was emotionally devastated. That is not healthy.

Two wrongs don't make a right. That kind of thinking will harm your marriage, not help it.

I agree and realize two wrongs don't make a right. I am owning my part in the increase in problems and have remedied my part. The problem is that my wife has been overweight for many years, and I have told her how much this hurts me many times. I didn't always communicate it well, but am trying to do it better now. I need her to care about me in this way. If she can't or won't, what am I supposed to do?

Her being overweight does not "hurt" you. Let's stop with the drama. And you don't "own it" when you use her failure to meet this need as an excuse for your poor behavior. Much of the behavior on your side has hurt her terribly. It just impacts your desire. I would put aside your punishment approach and try something new. You will never motivate anyone to meet your needs by punishing her.

So what does Dr. Harley say about the contrast effect?

At this point, I wouldn't expect a show of good faith from her. You've probably devastated her. If you make enough love bank deposits to get her to fall in love with you again, she might become willing to meet your need. Without that, she never will.

Which is what I said earlier:

No, you haven't.
Have you read Lovebusters?

Did you see this?

I have read Love Busters and have implemented the program. Sex is not directly the issue, but my need for an attractive spouse is, which affects sexual arousal. It becomes more difficult to have sex with someone who is not physically attractive to me. I am not aroused by her visually. This is extremely important to me. It definitely does hurt me and thus our relationship. Harley talks about separating for emotional abuse and this feels like abuse to me. I understand now that he does not recommend that for men.

I do feel hurt. I have a pain in my stomach that started when my wife gained the weight back. How can you say there is no hurt going on here?

But not all of it. You still have quite a bit of learning to do. You are still very disrespectful of your wife, and it's going to take quite a while to fill her lovebank back up. But you must get her to fall back in love with you before she will be willing to lose weight for you.

Abuse is something that is done TO you, not the absence of emotional need meeting.

She is not abusing you by not losing weight. It may be something you desire, but is it not abuse just because it hasn't happened.

Abuse is the disrespect and anger you have shown her through the years over the subject. It is something you have DONE to her. Abuse is the demand that she lose weight or you will separate.

There's nothing wrong with a man wanting an attractive wife. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a man wanting his wife to lose weight. But when you start to get demanding, disrespectful and angry about it, THEN there's something wrong. I have 8 kids, and a lot of leftover pregnancy weight. My husband wants me to lose weight, too. And I'm gladly doing it -- but I wouldn't be if he treated me the way you have treated your wife over it for years.

So you might want to pay special attention to markos posts to you -- he's got a wife who's gladly jumping through hoops to lose weight for him.

Could you answer this?

How many dates have you taken your wife out on this week? How many hours alone with her do you get every week? Doing what?

That is silly. Abuse is something that is done TO YOU. Not meeting your need for PA is *not* abuse. It doesn't help the situation to dramatize the problem. We can help you get what you want without the drama.

Okay, here's my third time to post this. Hoping you will read it, respond to it, and do it:


If you want to get your needs met in marriage, this is what you'll need to do. Do you want to do this? I'll be happy to help you. If you don't want to do this, I'll find better ways to spend my time.

Me too! And here's my lengthy reasoning:




I did some research, and it appears that her BMI is in about the 50th percentile. It doesn't seem likely that 15 lbs. should single-handedly cause your arousal problems. In total, she is about 15 lbs. above her wedding day weight, after having 7 kids, caring for a handicapped child, and dealing with a disrespectful husband.

Nobody is going to tell you that you are wrong for wanting your wife to get back to her wedding day weight. However, the fact that you myopically focus on her lack instead of the possibility of your lack is a red flag.

I have paid close attention to all that Dr. Harley has said about this issue. Based upon what you have written about your history, I would suggest that you turn your heart, your sexual focus and your extraordinary care toward your wife and this program.

A habit you started very early in the marriage was to seek outside comparison points and blame your wife for your own bad habit. It does not need to be porn for this to occur. You have been an active "comparer" and that habit alone would prevent you from being aroused by your wife, even if she had never gained a pound.

Difficulty getting aroused never JUST boils down to one thing. It is a CHEMICALLY driven phenomenon and the reason why many women, with lower testosterone levels don't get turned on by just looking at a man.

I would guess that if you and your wife were on a deserted island, as long as your chemicals were at the same level as when you got married, and as long as your relationship problems were fixed, that you could close your eyes and be aroused by her touch or the sound of her voice.

Again, I am not telling you that you are wrong for having a desire for your wife to be thinner. But my feeling is that you have hurt your wife terribly with how you have blamed her for not arousing you. And I am worried that you are so fixated on your own beliefs about the reasons for the problem that you are blind to the bigger picture of what has gradually happened.


This shows that you have very little empathy for your wife. It also shows me that you have a poor understanding of how to have a great sex life in marriage. It is a red flag that the first thing you do when you can't get visually aroused by your wife, is to try to get that arousal visually elsewhere. Practice turning this around a bit, and see how you would feel if your wife told you that you weren't a sufficient specimen to get her there, so could you both go watch other men to see if that could work? This very thing happened to a couple who recently posted on this forum. If you read the thread, you will see the sad, damaging consequences of this type of thinking.

It is very common for people to seek solutions from OUTSIDE their marriages than from within. But just because it is common, does not make it appropriate or less damaging.

From what you have posted, I can see that your wife has tried and tried to explain how devastated she has been by your proposed solutions to "her problem".

The Marriage Builders program is about demonstrating empathy through our actions. I think that your wife would become so happy and grateful if you were to actually learn and practice the MB rules instead of using them against her by demanding that she meet a certain need. That, in and of itself, is ABUSE. In MB, we try to motivate our spouses first by showing extraordinary care. Based on your posting, it is clear that you have some cleaning up to do on your side of the street.

My guess is that your wife was so fed up with hearing your condescending comments, that she told you to just give it up, and forget about her ever losing the weight. She wants to mean something more to you than a specific composition of body parts. Fifteen pounds is totally doable. But a disrespectful, blaming and demanding attitude will create the opposite effect. Be prepared that it could take quite a while after you have changed your judgmental and disrespectful ways for her to feel safe and cared for, and for her to want to put in the huge effort of losing the last 15 pounds just to make you feel great.

If you can't get aroused before that, then I would start looking in the direction of other contributing factors. Just because Attractive Spouse is a common category of need, doesn't mean that you CAN'T have a great marriage without it, as long as she meets several other ones. But, based on what you have said here, there are enough problems to eliminate on your end, and if you did that, it's likely that your wife would eventually become motivated to lose more weight.

From reading this post it sounds like you are disgusted by her weight. ***EDIT***

Secondly you say that you have to watch porn to get aroused,that is a major problem. **EDIT**

It sounds to me like you need to work on this stuff and find your way back to your wife,instead of watching porn pull out your phone and **EDIT** I listen to it on my way to work and just started listening to marriage builders radio,both are great. Good luck.

Contrast effect is that the new easier thing will be more appealing (more arousing) than the previous one, and that previous one will pale by comparison.

In the first article in When to Call it Quits it speaks to my situation except the positions are reversed. My wife is the one not meeting my need, and Dr. Harley advises a plan that includes separation. Other posts have said that this situation is not abuse, Dr. Harley calls it neglect.

I must be open and honest with her, according to Dr. Harley. Thus I must tell her how her weight affects me. Why is this seen as disrespectful?

Neglect is a refusal to meet any of your needs. Putting on 15 pounds does not meet that criteria. However, I don't understand why you referred to that article when you know that Dr Harley wrote that for women?


I think the others are right that you are overly affected because your standards are warped by the contrast effect.

What are your wife's top EN's and how well do you meet them? Do you know?

Her top needs are affection and conversation. I work on meeting them all the time. She doesn't think I meet her need for affection well because my communication is not affectionate, that I don't know how to have a conversation with her that is pleasant for her. We spend at least 7 hours in undivided attention that I initiate. She doesn't do much to make the other 7 hours happen. We have been doing this for about 10 years. We typically take the motorhome to the river, go out for coffee, shop, dinner, watch movies and have sex. Before that it was maybe 3 hours of UA, it was pretty difficult with all the kids, we also homeschooled. She has not been enthusiastic about UA.

i can tell she has fallen out of love and very much agree with Markos and Prisca that this where you should start. If she says you don't meet her need for affection how can you say you "work on meeting them all the time? " What are you doing wrong and what are you doing to effectively meet her needs?

When a woman is not in love, she has very little sexual desire. I would strongly suggest you read their posts again and follow the advice. Additionally DidntQuit had some great insight.

Tell us how this applies to your situation.


Good - go on and read the entire When to Call it Quits series.


Nope, according to Dr. Harley, what do you need to do first?

Okay, so how well do you meet her need for affection?

This is nowhere near enough. You need to bump that up to 20-25 hours a week.

btw, any man who has trouble getting aroused needs to stop masturbating, 100%. Arousal is much more difficult when the seminal vesicles are emptied all the time. Stop making it harder for this poor woman to arouse you.

Wow, wish I could say the same after 8 kids! 15 lbs over her wedding weight is pretty darn great!

It will be easier to lose that weight when she's in love with you, Indiana. You're her biggest obstacle right now. Can you start taking her on dates, 20-25 hours a week?

By the way, I hate to sound like a book salesman, but I noticed you said you got His Needs Her Needs 20 years ago. HNHN has had two major revisions since then (the most recent was in 2010), and one of the sections that got the most revision was the chapter on the need for an Attractive Spouse.

I always recommend people get the latest editions of the books, and I would especially recommend it in this case.

By the way, I would also encourage you to try to talk to Dr. Harley directly on his radio show. Read about the show, get the app, send your question in an email, and they will usually be glad to have you on the show. For many of us that was the beginning to turning our marriages around.

No, masturbation is not an exception to the policy of joint agreement. It's clear that your wife only said "I don't care" because she is fed up with you, and it's clear that it hurts her dearly.

Stop hurting your wife dearly. That's probably the most important thing you need to do in order to start turning your marriage around.

The policy of sexual exclusivity says that ALL our sexual experiences should be with our spouse.

The more you repeat a sexual experience, including sex with yourself, the further you drive yourself away from arousal and sexual satisfaction with your wife. The fact is, you have trained your brain to light up for anyone but your wife.

There is a reason why your wife was having to put so much work into arousing you. Like Marcos said, you really should approach Dr. Harley on this. It is a tricky topic.

I fully understand that the masturbation is a problem and I have ceased doing this. I am looking for a permanent resolution to the weight issue which was long before any other issues. There were years we had information from HNHN (yes I have the most recent edition) and my wife knew her weight was too high and she didn't change anything. I didn't say anything to her about it for a long time, and when I finally did talk about it I feel it was in a respectful way. Again, how is this disrespectful?

So is the problem here that you think that your wife doesn't care about how much her extra 15 pounds bother you to look at?
Or is it more that you get the feeling that she doesn't care about how you feel regarding her appearance in general?

I'll bet that your wife would love to have a permanent solution to weight gain too! She "painfully" lost several pounds despite your critical nature. But it is a very tall order to ask her to override her body's tendency to gain weight under the historical marital conditions. You cannot expect her to care about it like you do! She may not be as bothered by overweight as you are. And if you want her to feel motivated to respect and care about this very specific request, you need to first prepare the marital environment. Marcos and Prisca are offering to help you change her marital environment which in turn can motivate your wife. Remember that failing to meet a specific need is not grounds for separation unless it was a serious threat to your emotional or physical health. If you feel that 15 extra pounds on your wife is a serious threat to your emotional health then you really need to discuss that with Dr. Harley to stabilize you until the issues are solved.

As for our assertions that you are disrespectful, you are blind to your own tendencies to be critical and judgmental toward your wife. We can see the instances as we read your posts. It is as if they are written in bold red to those of us having studied this program in detail. We know that the problem you came here to solve won't be solved if you don't learn to avoid these lovebusters. I will say it this way: There is nothing wrong with saying "Honey, I loved the way you looked when we got married! I prefer it when you are thinner. " But it is a more effective plan to give your wife extraordinary care through 15 positive UA time hours, eliminating criticism and disrespect.
I would make a habit of complementing other positive attributes like her face, hair, eyes. Also suggest UA ideas that are active like bike riding or walking.

You, sir, have a big problem with disrespect. Read Lovebusters again.

Are you ready to start the program so that your wife will fall in love with you and be motivated to lose the weight?

It will be easier to lose that weight when she's in love with you, Indiana. You're her biggest obstacle right now. Can you start taking her on dates, 20-25 hours a week?

Again, I hate to get all psychobabbly, but you really DEFLECT a lot. It's as if when we talk about an issue you act like you just touched a stove and need to jump away real quick to something else.

Can you talk about problems you cause without leaping immediately to problems she causes, in the same breath?

So, how about going to the beach or other places to look at other women in order to get aroused? When you first brought this up, you didn't talk like you thought it was a bad idea.

I honestly do not see the disrespect. I am only being honest. I know we need to spend concentrated time together and I have asked her to go to Mexico with me but she won't go. I am so exhausted by all the talking that I have asked her if I can go alone. She doesn't want that either. All the time I have this knot in my stomach that won't go away.

It will be easier to lose that weight when she's in love with you, Indiana. You're her biggest obstacle right now. Can you start taking her on dates, 20-25 hours a week?

If you feel so bad that you can't stick to the plan, you need to see your doctor about prescribing some short term antidepressants. Let him know you are having marital trouble and that you are following a plan to improve things but that you are so emotional that it is difficult to stick to the plan, and that you need some help to even out the emotional highs and lows and help you keep rational so that you can do what you need to do for now.

As for Mexico....I can see why she would refuse to go. Why would she want to go when she knows that you will be tempted to gawk and compare? You have spoiled any possible relaxation she could have by the beach!

A long trip can jumpstart the intimacy, but it cannot replace the necessary habit of 15 hours of dating your wife every single week. Please start a proper consistent UA habit. No discussing problems on a date. Can you start this today?

Being critical is an honest expression of your true feelings. But it is still disrespectful.

Have you read the book Lovebusters?

Focus on dates for now. Try to do something active and not food related, its summer so think hiking walking, canoeing etc.

My husband wants me to lose weight and I Am. But we took a long path to this point. Unfortunately, early in our marriage, my H decided to monitor and comment on everything I ate. At the time I had a normal weight. Avoiding these critisms caused me to develop bad habits. I gained a bit of weight and eventually told him he wasnt helping me and to leave me be.

But now I had bad eating habits. When I developed some health problems, my weight skyrocketed. My husband now shows me kindness though. We go on dates all the time and I am very in love. This is so motivating because I want to meet his need for an attractive spouse. We realized for me to lose the weight, he cant be active in the process at all. He can compliment me and plan non-food dates with me but no advice. Instead, I found a specialist who deals with the same health issues and lost the weight. I was on an extreme diet to start that was carefully monitored. I've lost 30#. I'm now on a less extreme diet and still losing weight.

My points: 1. being in love is a powerful motivator for meeting the needs of the beloved. 2. My husband has to stay away from the process or it hurts too much.

None of us believe you are wrong for your PA need. You are going about getting it met in the wrong way. You are right to remove avenues for comparison such as your DVD player from your immediate area. You could also consider areas of PA that she can be successful in immediately, such as flattering clothing, hair, etc.

Your wife will find losing weight easier when she is in love again. Since you are asking for help to get your need meet, we are focusing on your behavior.

No, don't separate. Implement the MB plan fully, help your wife fall in love again, convince your wife of the value of the program so she wants to do it too.

Also, consider stopping all TV and social media. These things are envy generators making a happy satisfied life nearly impossible.

Are you saying here that you have both tried to do the program but are falling short in vaious ways? If so, I highly recommend doing theonline accountability program. Your wife will feel controlled if you are at a dead end with her and you try to use Dr. Harley's books to motivate her. Better options are for you both to have the coaching program where a 3rd party calls attention to your shortcomings or for you to do as many have stated and put the program into practice on your end, without misinterpreting or cutting corners. Marcos and Prisca have offered to take you under their wing on that. What do you think about this post?

Markos has an old post on type of DJ that may be slipping into your conversation...i will try to find it.

Indiana, don't get discouraged. Let the folks here help you get a good plan together and you're going to be completely amazed with the results

I wrote my wife this letter: I am writing to share my feelings. I am feeling exhausted from all the talking. I am feeling hurt. I desperately need some majorly pleasant UA recreational time. I have been trying to communicate this since we came home from Florida.

I am feeling terribly frustrated that weeks are going by and this need is going unmet.

Do you understand that you are NEVER going to feel the need for this to the extent I feel it? HWSW p.52-53. This pattern of waiting until YOU "feel like going" is NEVER going to be enough.

I am feeling SO angry that I have had to endure years of this practice when you have had the counsel from Harley the whole time.

I am feeling "at the end of my rope"
END OF LETTER

I need have sun and warmth and beach to qualify as "majorly pleasant" and she will not go. I need sun and warmth and a beach to treat my depression. I am asking if she will agree to me going alone. She won't. What can I do now?

You can learn to POJA and stop making demands.

You have already told this forum that you enjoy beaches because of the fit body's that get you sexually aroused. WHY ON EARTH would you expect your wife to want to go on a vacation to these locations, knowing that??? Now you are saying it is to treat your depression. There are many ways to treat depression that do not harm your marriage, and I do not believe that is your primary reasoning for wanting to frequent these areas.

Asking her to allow you to go alone is equally marriage wrecking and again she would be foolish to agree to this.

You asking her to do either of these marriage wrecking things is not going to salvage your marriage, it is going to make things worse.

Do you want to have a marriage of extraordinary care, or do you want to get your way at the expense of your wife???

People here are willing to help you get your needs met by using this program, but it seems you want to bully your wife into submission instead.

Dr Harley would not council your wife to sacrifice. He would not council either of you to spend your UA time on beaches where you oogle other women. He would not council your wife to let you go do this ALONE.

Don't use this program as a way to manipulate her.

Would you like to do Marriage Builders?

I feel I have been "doing" Marriage Builders for years. I understand that I have done some things wrong, but they were reactions to my wife's gaining weight. I initiated the UA time that we did have and at times it was like pulling teeth to get her to go with me. Now, I know we need to spend more than the 15 hours per week together but I can't get her to go anywhere with me. What should I do?

Did you read the 5+ links I posted to Marriage Builders articles?

Do you have the app yet and are you listening to the Marriage Builders Radio program, daily?

Have you seen your doctor about antidepressants, yet?

Have you done these things, yet? Especially the apology to your wife - I'd like to know if you've done that.

You mean you want to REPEAT the offense?????

Faint.

Dr. Harley doesn't recommend sun and warmth and a beach and women in bikinis to arouse you. What program are you following that recommends this.

Do you know what your wife needs in order to treat her depression? A man who doesn't look at other women.

There is nothing we can do to help you until you swear off of the bikini babes.

Your letter was demanding, disrespectful and angry -- the 3 BIG lovebusters. You may have been aware of the program for years, but you haven't actually followed it if you are still committing these 3 biggies.

You should not expect your wife to go to the beach if she doesn't want to. She shouldn't have to. It is not the only option available that will make you happy.

You are using Marriage Builders terminology to manipulate your wife to do what you want at her expense.

Your letter to your wife is an example of a selfish demand. You have your mind made up about what will make you happy and will accept no alternatives.

What in the world? What about what SHE finds "majorly pleasant??" Did you forget the other part of this equation. Such as your wife? You don't have an "emotional need" to go to the beach. No one does. Writing a demanding, selfish, rude letter is more likely to ensure you NEVER get your needs met. Just because you WANT something does not mean your wife is obliged to go along with it. My suggestion is that YOU listen to Markos and Prisca and start using the program.

If you want your wife to spend time with you, be pleasant and find something to do that you BOTH like. You seem to only think about what YOU want. That will not help her want to do anything with you.

Hello everyone. I am the wife of the man in this thread. He is encouraging me to write to get your input. Right now he has taken "Love Busters" pg. 300 where Dr. Harley talks about UA time and recommends that they go away together for two or three weeks and is saying "Dr. Harley says to go away together." I don't want to go. What is your advice?

You should always find things to do about which you are BOTH enthusiastic. Your dates and/or trips should be planned together, with no sacrificing and no compromise because the goal is to make this the most enjoyable time of your week. This article describes how decisions should be made between you: The Policy of Joint Agreement

You should brainstorm with abandon until you find something to do you both love. My H and I sit down together on Sunday afternoons and plan out our weekly dates using this UA worksheet: here. Keep in mind, the key is to find things you BOTH enjoy.

Still the wife here. We have not spent 15 hours a week together, probably 3-4 hours UA per week although we are together a lot. His work is very flexible at this point. I am honestly not highly motivated to spend much time at all even though I know I need to in order for our marriage to survive. Do you have any advice for me?

We understand you are not motivated at this time. We felt the same way at one time. Now, i look forward to our dates and wouldn't miss them for anything. Read this:

here

In other words, the KEY to being motivated is to schedule the time and start spending it together until the love is restored in your marriage. It is usually a matter of weeks until you are highly motivated if you spend the time meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs, doing things you BOTH like.

p.s. can I get you to register you own screen name and start up a thread just for yourself?

more from the UA article - being in love is a GAME CHANGER.......

Hi, Indiana's wife. Welcome to Marriage Builders. I encourage you to sign up for your own account and start your own thread and stay with us.

I think Dr. Harley would encourage you to insist that your husband stop gawking at other women and stop proposing trips to the beach with scantily clad women. I think that would be one of the highest priorities. You can always write him and ask on his radio show: mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Perhaps you could make a deal with your husband that you would be willing to start following the Marriage Builders program if he does. But he's going to have to give up all the other women, first. With his track record of wanting to be aroused by other women besides his wife, and his demonstrated total lack of understanding of what a serious problem this is, I can see why you wouldn't want to spend any time with him.

I will start my own thread under the screen name Indianaswife.

My wife and I are having a discussion concerning treatment of my depression. It was calm. However, at one point she says very intensely " YOU ARE WRONG!!" Is that an example of a disrespectful judgement?

I would focus all of your attention on your OWN lovebusters for now. You have A LOT that need to be eliminated. For example, your selfish demands that she go on vacation or you are going alone. Have you abandoned that terrible idea and stopped your selfish demands?

Do you have the book Lovebusters yet? What Harley recommends is that each of you have your own copy and go through the chapters together. You should highlight things that stand out to you and she should do the same and then exchange your books.

What is your suggestion for the treatment of depression? You need to find a solution that appeals to you BOTH. Are you doing that?

Your answer tells me that it is a lovebuster. You misunderstand concerning going alone on a vacation.This was not done coersively. It was a request for reciprocation for the last time we were apart where she went to do something that she wanted to do and I stayed home with the kids. A vacation, preferably with her but without if necessary,is my proposition for treatment of my depression. We have done it many times, always together,but when she did not want to go I simply suggested I go myself. That solution does not appeal to her, but none of her suggestions even come close to an all-inclusive Carribean resort.

Depression is long term a single vacation can't treat that. Also, it would be a violation of the no nights apart rule.

You need to start working on your own behavior and stop trying to use MB as weapon against your wife.

That solution does not appeal to her, but none of her suggestions even come close to an all-inclusive Carribean resort.


I can't believe you are still suggesting vacation ideas where there are women in bathing suits whom you are comparing your wife to. I completely understand how she might feel about that. If you are depressed, see your doctor and try using Marriage Builders to help your marriage. You have been given some wonderful marriage building advise. I hope you choose to take it.

Can you go to Alaska or somewhere where the women are covered up, instead?

Please show me where this is suggested by Marriage Builders.

Indiana, it would be disrespectful for your wife to tell you that you are wrong.

It would also be disrespectful for you to tell her that you have to have a vacation to treat your depression.

On one hand, you feel like you need a vacation. But on the other hand, you are being controlling (demanding). Can you see how from her perspective, you are using your depression as justification to bully her? So she is now responsible for your depression if she doesn't accommodate your desire for a specific solution?

Can you please respond to this?

So stop requesting it. You need to take carribean vacations OFF THE TABLE. STOP asking for "reciprocation." Find a way to treat your "depression" that appeals to you BOTH. DON'T do anything that is bad for your marriage such as separate vacations OR going to the beach to gawk at half naked women. <----take that off the table entirely.

If you are depressed due to a lack of sun, go to the tanning booth and start taking weekly doses of vitamin D. Have you checked your vit D levels?

How do you all feel about Alaska? It is a beautiful state!

Reposting this from several days ago. You still seem to be focusing on a trip away instead of establishing a lifelong habit of 15 UA hours. The goal should be to finetune those dates until they are enjoyable, and as a dual track, get medical help for the depression.

It feels to me like you are ignoring all of the advice to start dating your wife. What is the obstacle to doing that?

You also misunderstand. Believe me, I know depression is long term, I live with it every day. This was not a single vacation, we did not go in December as planned (the darkest month - we live in the north) We did go to sun destinations January one week February one week March 2 weeks (March was a family vacation- not much pleasant UA time) So this is part of a regimen we have been doing for some time. Conflict and abuse are some of my triggers hence my previous question. My wife disagrees with me that this is abusive but believe me I can feel it.

When will you take your wife out on a date?
This program will not work unless you start getting 20 hours UA each week.

You cannot use the program to force your wife on a vacation she doesn't want to go on.

Drop the beach idea. She doesn't want to do it, and if you were actually following the MB program, you would respect that and try to find another solution.

When will you take her out on a date?

How has she "abused" you? So far I only see evidence that you are abusing her by trying to control her by forcing this vacation idea on her. Control is an abusive tactic. YOU ARE ABUSING HER. Drop the Caribbean vacation idea and don't bring it up again. You have no business going to beach resorts where you can gawk at women.

How is she abusing you?

What else are you doing to treat your depression other than going to 'sun destinations?'

I also live in the north and have never heard of treating long term depression this way. I feel like you are using this method of 'treatment' as an opportunity to manipulate your wife into going to beaches for alternative reasons.

You are getting a lot of advice here, and keep coming back to explain your position. Do you want to change your situation or keep it as it is? Your position on things, what you are currently doing, has wrecked your marriage. If you want to change that you need to start working this program and stop explaining why you are doing what you are doing. It has obviously not been working for you.

Do you want to change things or not?

This is why you should stay away from the beaches. Don't go anywhere where you are aroused by other women.

Take that OFF the table entirely. Look at Alaska, Grand Canyon, Charleston, the Alamo, Gettysburg or any other great vacation places. The sun shines year round in Texas, for example. You could go visit Austin, Dallas, Fredicksburg and many other places in the south. [as long as it is not a beach. You could even tour Galveston as long as you stayed away from the beach. Lots of sunshine there! How would your wife feel about any of those places?

As for the "gawking" as you put it, I think you may have jumped to some conclusions. Watching movies with sex scenes was consensual. We only did it a couple of times years ago, and when she was too uncomfortable we never did it again and I have not pushed for it. The women on the beach are just there. When you go to the beach are you gawking? Can you go to the beach and not compare your wife to anyone? So can I. The fact that I am more easily aroused there is the product of many factors of which being able to truly relax, not having to compete for my wifes undivided attention, and feeling my depression lifting are chief.As for watching the movies on my own,I apologized,and gave her the DVD player before I ever wrote to you. Maybe you would care to re-read my original post. You did answer the separation question for which I thank you

Apparently you are using the experience to get aroused by the women, AS YOU TOLD US IN YOUR FIRST POST, so that is why you should not go there. The second reason is that your wife does not agree.


I did re-read your post. And you have no business going anywhere you are aroused by the women. If you get "aroused" by the women in Home Depot, then stay the hell out of Home Depot. Its real simple.

If you need sunshine, what is wrong with the tanning booth?

Or a blue light?


Have you seen a doctor for your depression?

The goal is for you to have your wife's UA at least 15 hours during the week. What keeps your dates from feeling like a relaxing vacation?

Were you addressing me with this post when you say that I don't understand?

I do not get aroused by women on the beach. I do not go to the beach for the purpose of being aroused. My original post states clearly that it is "easier to be aroused there", that is on vacation which I explain elsewhere that there are multiple reasons why this is the case.

Ultimately it doesn't matter why you go there. Your wife is not enthusiastic about going, so you need to find an alternative that you are BOTH happy with.

Many suggestions have been made as to how you can get sunshine that she may be more enthusiastic about. What is your response to those?

You said this in your initial post:
Even so, your wife does not agree that you should go there so this needs to be dropped. Trying to force your will on your wife is an attempt to control her, which is abusive.

Go back and brainstorm with her to see if there are other places she would like to go. If not, the default position is to do nothing.

In that same post you wrote:


In other words, you get aroused by gawping at women, which harms your ability to be aroused by your wife.. The solution is to remove the source of arousal so you are only aroused by your wife.

I am trying to explain why this is bad for your marriage. But the overriding reason is that your wife does not want to go.

How does your wife feel about it?

Concerning UA when my wife became a mother UA time by Harleys definition ceased and I mean almost completely. She breast fed and practiced the family bed for 15 years. We were almost never alone that whole time. We moved to a new area where we knew no one and the closest relative lived 3 hrs away. I am not sure it would have mattered, she almost never left the children even with Grandparents when they came to visit and where do you find an affordable baby-sitter qualified to handle 5,6,7 kids one being special needs? We came across Harleys HNHN about 5 years into childrearing but knowing what he taught made no difference in her behavior. I was not able to convince her to leave the children and go out with me until she felt our oldest daughter was qualified to handle it (and after our first visit to the marriage counselor) about 10 years ago. By this time we were having major problems. For the next 5 years we probably averaged about 7 hours per week and that only happened if I initiated it. So I have been dating my wife very consistently for 10 years and I have tried for years to get it up to 15 hours. According to my calculations, in the last 10 years there were only 22 weeks we exceeded 15 hours per week and they were ALL on trips away from home! And they were ALL initiated by me. This may help to explain my strong desire to get her away: it is the only way she has ever met my need for sufficient, pleasant UA time in 25 years. I understand that the time has to be pleasant for both. It would help if both were committed to the minimum time.

If you want to persuade her to do things with you then you should stop making selfish demands, stop trying to control her and present yourself as an attractive, fun, LOVING person. Trying to FORCE her to go on a vacation with you is not the way to do it.

Sell her on the idea of spending 15 hours a week with you, but propose to find things you BOTH like.

Ask yourself if you could ever get a woman to date you based on the things you have said about and TO your wife on this thread. I know, as a woman, I would run the other way. Nothing here would attract me. Do you think you could ever get a date if you sent a woman a note like this:


So why do you think your wife would want to do anything with you? Do you think that such a self centered, demanding letter would attract any woman? It will never attract your wife.

I don't think you are going to make much headway until you figure out how to offer enjoyable time to your wife. I definitely didn't.

So are you going to take her out on dates or not?

Did I forget to mention that we are home-schooling all seven kids completely through high school? To answer someone, she has been abusing me for years by practicing her own lovebusters. Have none of you ever heard of "snowbirds?" People from the north traveling to sun destinations in the winter months primarily to maintain their mental health. There are literally millions of them. My wife's parents and almost all of her aunts and uncles have been doing this for 20+ years. As for separate reciprocal breaks from the kids, this is something we have practiced for years. We were advised by health professionals, in regard to raising a special needs child, that we get regular respite from his care. Sometimes it is just not possible for both of us to take it at the same time. This is why I requested to go alone if she would not come with me, not to try to force her. Believe me, it is in her best interest for me to maintain my mental health. Concerning "my feelings" letter, I learn from Harley that she needs me to be completely open and honest with her in a loving way. I understand that I failed on the last part.It is a consequence of feeling forced to communicate while depressed and exhausted. As I stated above,and this is not a threat it is a fact, it is not in her best interest for me to allow myself to sink into depression.

Yes, you are trying to FORCE her to accept a very bad idea, taking a separate vacation. That is an attempt to control her by forcing your ideas on her. That will have massive destructive implications on your marriage that will last for years. Don't do it. As we also told you, Dr Harley recommends that you NEVER spend the night apart. Don't do it.

Do you want to have a good marriage? Then drop this beach vacation idea and focus on being an attractive husband. So far you have given your wife no reason to want to do anything with you. You are demanding, controlling, abusive and unpleasant. YOU WILL NEVER GET A DATE THAT WAY.

Stay away from the beaches. Be an attractive person. Ask her where she would like to on a vacation, if at all.

It is in your best interest to find a way to maintain your mental health that does not harm your marriage or upset your wife.

Effective Marriage Counseling pg 112 - 113

What about Resentment?

One of the most common objections to the POJA is that it creates
resentment when it�s followed. I agree; it does usually create some
resentment. But far more resentment is created when it is not followed.
An illustration will help make this important point.

George is invited to watch football with his friend Sam. He tells
his wife, Sue, that he plans to accept the invitation. Sue objects.

If George goes ahead and watches the game, he�s guilty of independent
behavior. He is not following the POJA, and Sue will be resentful.
When George does something against the wishes of Sue, I call
her resentment type A.

If George follows the POJA and doesn�t accept Sam�s invitation,
George will be resentful. When George is prevented from doing something
because of Sue�s objections, I call his resentment type B.

Which type of resentment makes the largest Love Bank withdrawals:
type A or type B? The answer is type A, and that�s why the POJA
helps build Love Bank balances. I�ll explain.

When George violates the POJA, Sue has no choice but to feel
the effect of the thoughtless decision (Love Bank withdrawals) for
as long as memory persists�possibly for life whenever the event is
recalled. But when George follows the POJA, the negative effect is
limited in time. It lasts only as long as it takes to discover an enjoyable
alternative that is acceptable to Sue.

George lets Sue know how disappointed he is with her objection
but is willing to discuss other options. Sue wasn�t invited to watch
football and doesn�t want to invite herself to Sam�s house, so she
suggests inviting Sam and his wife to their house to watch football.
George calls Sam, he and his wife accept, and the new activity puts
an end to George�s type B resentment.

Type A resentment can last forever, but type B resentment stops
the moment a mutually enjoyable alternative is discovered. Those
with poor negotiating skills may have trouble seeing the difference
because they have not learned how to resolve conflicts. They may
feel resentment about a host of issues that have been unresolved in
their marriage. But after you teach a couple to negotiate successfully,
unresolved issues are minimized. Then it becomes clear to
them that the POJA helps build Love Bank balances by eliminating
type A resentment.

We're homeschooling 8!

Did you realize there's more to the south than beaches? We live in the sunny south, and there's not a beach in sight.

And it's still a very bad idea for your marriage.

Don't blame her for your lovebusters.

HEY.

Why should we post to you when you ignore us and don't answer our questions?

So, are you going to start taking your wife out on dates?

I honestly thought she enjoyed and felt good about going to sun destinations with me. She has willingly gone with me at least a dozen times just in the last 3 years. This has me really confused. Does not this seem the least bit odd to anyone else? To help me establish this regimen just to yank it out from under me? Does that not seem at the very least unwise? What would I be if I was not feeling hurt by this? Would anyone else out there be feeling like I am if you were in my position? I do not understand why you are asking me if I am going to start taking her out on dates. I already stated that I have been doing that consistently for the last 10 years.

So now you know she does not have any desire to go anywhere with you. I understand you might feel hurt, but you have to look at this logically. She has explained that she wants to spend no time with you at all because of your lovebusters. It is much like getting an NSF notice from the bank. It might not be pleasant to get the notice, but the alternative is much worse.

Now that you know what the problem IS, you can start working on eliminating your lovebusters and becoming an attractive, appealing partner. Stamping your feet and amping up the selfish demands does not make you more attractive. It makes you LESS because it looks like you are trying to gain at her expense.


No.

Just last summer the two of us went to Europe and I thought she had a wonderful time. She talked about how great it was afterward and even talked about going again.

You have not been taking her out on dates 15 hours a week. You stated that perfectly clear. So are you going to start?

Do you own Lovebusters?
Are you going to eliminate demands, disrespect and angry outbursts?

Not really.

Will you go on antidepressants?

Is that supposed to be an answer to my question? Because I'm not seeing an answer there. I'm just seeing a bunch of your thoughts.

How does your wife feel about the beach?

You mentioned in your first post that you had read the book His Needs Her Needs years ago.

You need to be aware that HNHN is really just one half of Dr. Harley's program.

The other half is in the book Love Busters, and, friend, YOU NEED IT! Love Busters is the key to learning why your wife doesn't want to do this program with you. If you would like to get her to follow the program with you, you need to figure out the material in that book and put it into practice. You will probably also need the help Dr. Harley offers each day on the radio, so do you have the app installed, and are you listening, daily?

She does not want to go to the beach.I will go on anti-depressants. I took vitamin D all winter and I do everything else on my daily regimen faithfully. When she broke up the regimen by refusing to go with me as planned in Dec.(a crucial month for me) this started a downward spiral that I have not been able to reverse and consequently we have had a rough winter (this is why it seems not in the best interest of our marriage to me). I have a Dr. appointment scheduled for the 16th. Yes I have, and have read, and am giving my best effort to following the counsel in LoveBusters. I explained above that my wife has not been committed to 15hrs/wk UA time since before we had our third child. I have been trying to reach that level for years but the ONLY time we reach it is when I can get her away from the house and kids for at least 1 overnight. Yesterday we planned an overnight trip for Mon-Tues. doing something she wants to do but it involves kids on the other end so it probably will not reach the goal. What she will commit to the rest of the week I do not know. She does not follow through with the weekly UA schedule thing.

Your wife does not want to spend time with you because of the constant lovebusters. 'Giving your best effort' is not enough, you must eliminate them completely.

Even the above post comes across to me as selfish and demanding, and seems to blame your wife for your depression, not being enthusiastic about what you want her to be enthusiastic about, and not following through with UA time....which she is not going to want to do if you make it unpleasant for her, who would???. If I get that feeling from a simple paragraph, I can only imagine what a whole date night is like.

Last night we had a big fight and now this morning she is demanding I move out today. I already apologized first thing this morning 2x. Should I comply?

ij, if you want your wife to follow this program, you need to start SUCCEEDING at following the Love Busters part of the program, IMMEDIATELY. I would get an email out to Dr. Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com RIGHT THIS MINUTE describing the situation to him and asking him for help to eliminate your own Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts. If you can't stop these or won't stop these, you aren't safe for your wife.

You have got to make some progress on this program right now and stop whining about what your wife is or isn't doing. She is not motivated to follow this program because you are not following this program - you are demanding, disrespectful, and angry.

The fights are like nuclear warfare - everybody loses. Most especially you. You have got to learn how to never have another fight with her again as long as you live no matter what she does.

You did not answer my question. Are you saying you will let Harley answer it? Should I move out?

I am sitting next to markos, and he wants me to tell you that NO, he did not answer your question. He gave you vital information that you need to act on immediately. Will you?

I see no indication of you avoiding lovebusters at all. You commit several lovebusters in this post by attempting to blame her for your depression because she would not go on a trip with you in December. Then you pick a fight with her by not letting her sleep alone. What in the world??


Given the lovebusters that you commit and the way you employ the MB program as a baseball bat over her head, this is not surprising. You must start using the program yourself if you expect her to want to be with you.

Did she also tell you that even though I never lost my temper and was not loud or threatening throughout the argument and never laid a hand on her that night (and never have) that she shoved me backwards when we were 3/4 the way up the stairs? Probably not. Thank God He kept me from falling. If I had been seriously injured who would be providing for her and my kids? I am sitting on the toilet as I type this because my gut is wrenching. Should I subject myself to anymore of this pain? Or any pain she may inflict in the future? Believe me I understand the whole not being attracted issue. That is the core. I started out asking you if I should separate from her for exactly that reason. Now here we are, full circle. Her behaviors are not attracting me to her enough to want to stay near her anymore. I understand my behaviors are bringing this on myself but the reality check of a separation may be necessary for protection of my health.

From your perspective it was "just a trip". From my perspective it was far more, as I explained above. To you, I am blaming her for my depression; to me, I am holding her accountable for not following through on an agreement that treats my depression. When she refused to go she behaved like I did not exist and that LB has had major consequences.

Not used to typing on the phone lost a long post. Please read this this morning and every day, I am too. The Conversation is Boring

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html

And listen to the radio show. Let Dr. H talk you down from this and build you up. Not that you want to read my mess I was in your W's position. But I wrote to Dr. H twice and he gave me great advice that helped me in many situations.

There is hope let these folks guide in turning this around! You don't ever need to feel like this again!

Can anyone explain to me why Harley allows for separation on grounds of persistent and long-term neglect of emotional needs for women and not for men? Are not the effects just as devastating to the marriage?

Have you written Dr. Harley and asked him?
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Yes, you were threatening when you followed her into the other room and forced yourself on her. You picked the fight by demanding [once again!] that she sleep with you. *YOU* are not a safe person. Dr. Harley would tell you to stop lovebusting her and work on your marriage. Of course she doesn't meet your needs, you have PUSHED HER AWAY WITH YOUR LOVEBUSTERS.

If you want your wife to use the MB program, then you need to use it yourself. All you have demonstrated to her are selfish demands and disrespectful judgements in the name of Marriage Builders.

Do you want to have a great marriage? Then start by eliminating YOUR OWN lovebusters. Stop whining and start using the program.


Reality is that the only person hurting your health is YOU by stubbornly insisting you have to go to the beach and not looking for solutions that are good for your marriage. If you want your wife to go on trips with you, then you need to smarten up and STOP lovebusting her!

Because he believes men are tougher and usually when they get on board with the program, they can lead their marriage out of the ditch. In your case, you have never used Marriage Builders [other than to demand that your wife use it which is a violation of MB rules] so you have a great opportunity to fix your marriage if you will stop lovebusting your wife and focus on ATTRACTING HER.

If you were a woman being asked out on a date would you go out with the man you see on your thread? You are demanding, selfish, disrespectful, whiny and make unflattering comments about your wife. What woman would be attracted to that?

Indiana, you see what she does that hurts you, but you are blind to what you are doing that is killing her. You don't realize how bad you poke bully her with your arguments and gaslighting. When you verbally bully her she has no way to protect herself. You entice a conversation in the guise of Marriage Builders and slap her around with warped interpretations. Don't think for a minute that it isn't abuse and control. She is in a powerless position, trying to cry foul, but you keep poking her. It is Coercive, manipulative and abusive of power. She has tried the accommodation route and it's killing her. I have not seen one statement in any of your posts that shows even a hint of thoughtfulness, goodwill, acceptance, or consideration toward your wife or her perspective. There is a lot of hope for you both if you, Indiana, can learn how to correctly apply Marriage Builders principles.

Please let Dr. Harley help you both. There is hope..

POJA allows for your wife (or yourself) to change her mind. Her changing her mind is not a LB but an opportunity for you to try to find a solution that you are BOTH enthusiastic about.

You holding her accountable is the LB here (Selfish demand and Disrespectful Judgement). Even if she was enthusiastic at one point, she can change her mind and should not be afraid of repercussions from you.

Please contact Dr. Harley. His input would really help you get started.

Many people offered other suggestion for a trip that would be a sunny destination, that would not be at a beach. I do not believe you have responded to those. You keep saying that it treats your depression, yet stick to the need to go to a beach and do not respond to other suggestions that involve sunny destinations but not a beach. Tell me, how does a *beach* treat your depression? You told us in your very first post why you choose to go to the beach, and it has nothing to do with treating your depression. It is because you get more aroused there. So let's drop this whole beach treating your depression idea because you cannot manipulate the board into believing that you must go to the BEACH to treat your depression. Drop it. We don't buy it.

Are you familiar with the POJA? How have you attempted to negotiate a solution to this with your wife? Have you offered any other suggestions that she might be enthusiastic about? All we see here is you trying to control and manipulate her into continuing to go to a BEACH vacation with you, which she is not (understandably) enthusiastic about.

With regards to the POJA, Dr Harley does not state that if an agreement is made it cannot be changed. Certainly, anyone can change their mind at any time about what they are enthusiastic about. Even if your wife was enthusiastic about this decision at one time, she is not now. That is NOT a lovebuster or abuse. She is simply no longer enthusiastic about it. Using the rules of POJA you would need to renegotiate a new solution that you are BOTH happy with, not strongarm her into doing something she is now unenthusiastic about.

IJ, can you state the steps for finding joint agreements here, from memory?

No, you don't get to twist Marriage Builders terminology to manipulate your wife into just doing what you want. Won't work here.

Your wife refusing to do something she doesn't want to do is not independent behavior, and it is not a lovebuster.

Would you like to actually learn how to use the program?

As of now, I see no reason your wife should stay with you.

She doesn't have to meet your emotional needs until you stop the love busters. It's that simple.

ij, I didn't see an answer to this, so I don't think I'm going to waste any more time here.

A few more facts may help to clarify how I have been using MB for years. I have been self-employed from our home since the arrival of our second child and have lived virtually debt-free from that time. So in terms of her needs being met: 1)Affection- we maintained regular contact throughout the day almost everyday and I would touch her affectionately. For years now I have given cards, flowers and gifts for every occasion. Just on Mothers Day I arranged a BBQ at our sons house and gave her a nice card. I bring tea to her in bed almost every morning. 2)Conversation- I was available and took the time for regular conversation almost daily. She could touch base with me anytime she felt a need. 3)Open-Honesty- she always knew what was going on in my life. There was no opportunity for a secret life until most recent years. 4)Financial- she never lost sleep over finances. Our house was paid for, we never moved. She does the books for our business so she always knew exactly where we were at with money. Everything financial was carefully considered jointly. We always maintained a substantial emergency fund. 5)Family- we took regular family vacations yearly, often for a month at a time. In 1999, with 6 children in tow, we camped and traveled around the country 10 months and did a similar trip some years later for 2 months! I fully participated in the home-schooling of our children in ways she approved. Regular family meals were the norm, usually 3x per day. However, in terms of my needs: 1) Sex- for many years it was infrequent, only at night, most often in the dark, "don't wake the baby", always initiated by me. It has improved a lot in recent years, but to this day her behavior regularly communicates sex "is not even on the radar". 2) Rec. Comp.- this has suffered immeasurably. The goal of 15 hours of truly private UA time is so rarely breached. 3) Attractive- enough said. 4) Domestic- for the most part excellent. 5)Admiration- she is not big on communicating this. She does express it once in a great while. Is anyone else perceiving an imbalance here? On top of this severe, long-term imbalance, my wife denies that she is practicing any LB. I assure you she does, she can be very demanding! As I stated in my original post, my LB set in after years of neglect and abuse as a means of protecting myself. Now she has a burnt-out, sleep-deprived, depressed husband who experiences anxiety reactions at the sheer thought of having a conversation with her. You have said that the man is the stronger one, but I am not sure it is true in our case. Call this whining if you want, but the fact remains, as much as I have tried to be, I am no longer attracted to my wife. She has taken too much at my expense for too long. For my health, I feel I need to get away from her.

Have you tried to write you feelings down in a letter and give it to her?

Be Nice, Honest cordial, no love busters in the letter and give it to her.

You loved her once and you can love again. Many people fall out of love and get back together with an even better relationship. I myself am going through a difficult time with my wife and she is having an affair and I'm trying to pull out all the stops to keep this thing together!

I pray for you indianajordan to have wisdom guidance and understand from the Lord.

I'm in no position to give you advice on what to do, but, I have to wonder, why do you keep saying the same thing over and over expecting a different response?

The wonderful people here have told you exactly what to do and instead of saying "thank you for your advice, I know you all have done this and now have wonderful marriages" you are saying "but...but..." excuses will get you nowhere in MB. No one is going to tell you it's ok to leave your wife, they are going to continue to say the same thing: clean up your side of the road before you worry about anything else, because that's what the MB program tells you to do.

I hope that you will start listening to them so you can have a marriage as wonderful as those who have replied to you.

He did write an awful letter full of love busters, LMG. He seems to think it is okay to be cruel to get what he wants.

IJ, you are not using Marriage Builders. Focus on your own behavior because that is in your control. Stop brow beating your wife.

HNHN is only half the program. You need to learn to eliminate Lovebusters.

You have also not answered questions of the board, which tells us you aren't following the program. You are trying to use a perverted POJA to force your wife to let you ogle other women. I asked what are the steps for POJA because you are blatantly ignoring step 2 as well as he instructions to do nothing without your spouse enthusiastic agreement.

You are a classic example of someone who has a bad marriage because he cherry picked the program. You feel you meet the need of conversation by saying "I was available for conversation daily." This is not a need that is met effectively by being in the same house together and "being available." It is met effectively out on dates where you have each others undivided attention for a block of time, ie: 2-4 hours. You seem to approach this as a check the box exercise and don't concern yourself with effectiveness. We can see your approach has not been effective.

But the bigger issue is that you lovebust her so badly that none of this has any effect. You have lovebusted her terribly in front of us and here is what she had to say:


So you may have been working hard, but not smart. Your efforts have clearly FAILED. Do you want to be successful or do you want to blog about your poor lot in life? If so, then stop typing long whiny posts about what you have done and start listening to us. YOU NEED TO CHANGE YOUR APPROACH.

Are you ready to get to work?

IJ, I hear that you feel your efforts have outweighed your wife's.

I hear you saying that because you have provided so successfully and been a model father, that you are entitled to have her meet your needs in an equally perfect way.

I hear you when you say that it's not fair that we hold you accountable when she is the one out of line here.

I hear you that this imbalance is causing you to feel so neglected that you should abandon your family as a last ditch effort to motivate her to meet your needs.

I hear you that you have tried multiple ways to convince and motivate her. And I hear you trying to convince us.

Is that what you want me to hear? Is there anything else I am missing?

You are so busy explaining to us how you have effectively met all of your wife's needs IN YOUR PERSPECTIVE. But this is the problem, meeting someone's needs is not about your perspective at all. How have you met her needs in HER perspective?

Even if you are meeting her needs 100% (which, she would need to tell us, not you), if you continue to rampantly lovebust, it doesn't make a difference. For every love unit you are putting in the bank, you are taking out ten with your disrespect and manipulation. She is telling you that. WE are telling you that. I don't understand for the life of me why you want to continue to debate, instead of using information that both your wife and the board are giving you to fix the problems that you yourself came here to fix. Do you want to fix your marriage or not???

This is NOT an excuse to lovebust. There are men on the SAA board right now, whose wives are actively and blatantly engaged in affairs. These men are being abused in the most painful of ways. Yet they are making the choice to NOT lovebust their wives regardless of how they are being treated. Lovebusting is a choice. You can choose to do it or not to do it. You are choosing to do it.

He's not serious about this.

None of this means anything when you lovebust her and do not spend the minimum of 15 hours dating her. You have set everything you have done back to zero.

Indianajones, you would really benefit from a discussion with Dr. Harley. He can help you get what you want. Send him your phone # and he may call:

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I posted this to you 3 days ago and you just ignored it.

You may think you've been making all these LB deposits, but even if you were doing a good job you drained them all with all the Love Busters you've committed. Sorry sir, but you've created a HUGE hole in her lovebank.

I agree with this. Your first post here addressed Dr. Harley. If you want his direct response, the radio show email address is the way to go.

The forum advice is from people who understand Dr. Harley's concepts and program. Many of us have worked directly with him to solve problems similar to those in your marriage.

Don't waste another minute. Write Dr. Harley. How often can you get help for free, directly from the author of the book? Unheard of. But it's true.

Have you tried listening to the show?

DQ- I will reply to you point by point. 1)I am not gauging this assessment on feelings, rather on measurable behavior. 2)Do you think healthy marriages are balanced? Harley talks about this concerning conversation. We both employ LB so that is balanced. But in the area of meeting each others needs...? I have not approached this from a sense of entitlement and I am not expecting perfection but I do feel it is reasonable to communicate a desire for greater balance.3) No- I do not feel it is unfair. Holding people accountable is your purpose, I accept that.4)No. While it is true I am feeling neglected and abused, if you refer to my original post, I have no desire to abandon my wife or family. Suggesting a time-limited,agreed upon separation that guarantees 15 hr UA time during a cordial conversation was simply brainstorming possibilities. I thought we were both honestly trying to get a second opinion.It was her idea to ask this forum whether it would be an acceptable plan, in fact, she typed it. 5) I am trying multiple times to respectfully communicate to all of you.

Indianajones, you would really benefit from a discussion with Dr. Harley. He can help you get what you want. Send him your phone # and he may call:

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Will you email Dr. Harley?

I think this is your best option.

Thanks for clearing that up.

We keep suggesting that you email Dr. Harley. And you aren't. I don't get it. Why not, praytell?

I am embarrassed to admit my tech. illiteracy. My wife taught me how to reply on here, that is about all I know. I do however know what the book says, and this may help to clarify things further. HW/SW p.28-" If a couple can agree that a mutual short-term sacrifice for each of them can achieve a mutual long-term advantage for both of them, such a plan can actually be helpful to their marriage as long as basic emotional needs are being met during the time of sacrifice." This was my basic proposal; we were seeking your opinion. A more accurate opening title would have read," Should We Separate?" I feel like markos may have jumped to some conclusions when he began to comment on my post without reading it in its entirety. If that is true,it certainly has not been helpful. It has added a lot of stress to an already extremely stressful situation.

To respond to a specific post, just click the quote box at the bottom of that post.

So are you telling us that your situation was dire enough to warrant a separation but not an email to Dr. Harley?

Indianajordan,

Why won't you answer this question?

When your wife says NO, you should drop it. Nowhere does Dr Harley say to keep demanding your wife bend to your dictates. That is what has brought stress into your marriage. You have used very abusive tactics with your wife. Don't blame Markos.

Will you email Dr. Harley and get his advice? You seem to be so fixated on your own agenda that you are not listening to us. Hopefully he can get through to you.

You are quoting that out of context. It is not a recommendation to spend nights apart.

Sure seems that way to me too, Mel.

Jordan, please listen to us. Your wife's goodwill is running out. Her desire to spend any amount of time with you is gone. You are very confused about some things, and thank goodness you came here.
This is an emergency. Your family is drowning, and you are arguing because you are too proud to get help. How sad.

Cmon Jordan. Are you pulling our legs here with this whole story?

I think the problem is that you are a jerk who ignores your wife's feelings and emotional needs just like you ignore the people trying to help you. I can tell you are not serious about Marriage Builders and His Needs Her Needs at all, because if you were you would JUMP at the chance to talk personally with the author.

We've been active in this program for years, Buddy. We know what it says. We know it inside out. And it doesn't recommend a separation the way you are describing it.

You are misunderstanding and misusing the program, and it's driving your wife away.

CONTACT DR. HARLEY! He's a nice guy, and easy to talk to.

I think Indiana is trying to say that he does not understand HOW to email Dr. Harley.

Indiana, If I am correct - do you have an email account? If so, start a new email to bradio@marriagebuilders.com. That will email Joyce Harley who will work with Dr. Harley to get an answer to you. Make sure your phone number is included in the email, and check your email account for an answer.

If you don't have an email account, ask your wife to help you set one up and show you how to check it.

mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

the "m" dropped off your reply anywife.

I myself and many other posters have explained many, many times on how to email Dr. Harley.

I assure you I am not pulling any legs. Just ask my wife, she can verify anything you wish to know. Believe me, I know this is a dire emergency, my gut continually reminds me. I wish you would not refer to me as a jerk. I do not think that is helpful. If I wanted to suffer name calling I would go back to grade school. I described above how much I care about my wife's emotional needs. I think I said in my last post that I do not know how. My wife handles all business communications. I use my cell phone to talk and text,that is it. I know we have an email account but I never use it. On top of that, I never learned to type. My wife typed the original post but I have been on my own since. It can take me up to 3 hrs to compose some of these longer posts. I have been waking 4am. to go on here before I start my day. The thought of having to start all over again feels impossibly daunting. Is there any possible way just to get Joyce to read this stuff? I cannot endure this any longer,I am ready to quit.

Why dont you copy and paste a couple posts into an email?

Do you see in the bottom right corner of each post where it says Email Post?

You can click on that and send those to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Well, the first step is to identify the problem, and the second step is to solve it. The way you treat your wife hurts her terribly. We have raised many many issues on this thread listing ways in which you hurt your wife, and I haven't seen you invest any effort in proposing solutions for her issues. You talk about yourself but not her and demonstrate no understanding of the things you are doing that make your marriage bad for her.


It's not how you feel that will help your wife - it's what you do. It's not like television where all a couple needs is to each realize that the other really cares, and then everything is okay.


This really isn't that hard. The message you are sending is that your wife isn't worth it to you, your marriage isn't worth it to you, and you are not that interested in figuring out how to make Marriage Builders work in your marriage if it involves any effort or change on your part.

You don't have to start over. You can copy and paste your initial post into an email, add your phone # and ask them to call. Do you want to solve your problems or not?

In the time it took for you to defend yourself, you could have had an email off to Joyce.

Since she was willing to help you with your first post, she would surely be willing to show you how to address an email, post the text, and press "send".

What is plan after hearing Dr. Harley's direct advice?

Good job Jordan!!

That was an act of goodwill toward your wife and your marriage for you to go on the show. You did a great job.

As you listen to the show over the weekend, make sure to listen to the part directly after you hung up as well.

Hopefully you and your wife can eliminate your lovebusters and work on UA time.

Are you going to approach your wife to schedule 15 hours?

ij, want to check in and tell us what you think? Dr. Harley and Joyce are very helpful, aren't they?

Here is your show.
Radio Clip of Indianajordan's Show

It has been a week since we had sex. She is being apparently told that this is a productive thing in our relationship. I don't know who is telling her that. She thinks that when I invite her for UA time she can raise conflicts. That ends up very unpleasant, and even though I've done my part, to try to ask her out, she still won't have sex. What do I have to do to get sex?

Indianajordan, try Marriage Builders. The plan works great!

What are your wife's complaints about your marriage? Respond to them. Eliminate the love bank withdrawals you are making, start making massive love bank deposits, and your wife will be in love with you, and then sex will not be a problem.

Should you separate? OF COURSE NOT.

If you go ahead and make huge decisions without her then she won't WANT to have sex with you. If you make decisions that hurt her, she will feel miserable with you. Why should she have sex with you when you treat her like that? The goal is for her to DESIRE sex with you. You are not creating that environment by making decisions without her.

Remember that everything you do impacts your wife. Decisions about your son should be made jointly and not in a fit of anger. I would go to her and apologize for acting against her wishes. Then I would figure out a solution you both agree to. Keep in mind that when you do IB, you need to fix that as part of the solution. When she is opposed to something, take that idea off the table and come up with some other idea that accomplishes the same goal, but doesn't ruin your wife's desire to be with you.

As a sidenote-
Unilateral decisions are the first step to a downward spiral. That is why they are called lovebusters. It seems like more work to find something that your wife can feel good about. But taking a shortcut is a mistake. Your marriage is in a bad place right now. Do what Marco said to get it out.

Marriage does not work as an adversarial relationship. To have a good marriage, you have to function as a partnership.

So, have you really done your part? It doesn't sound like it to me. It sounds like you feel entitled to sex, and are willing to do a few things by way of compromise to get it.

We are all students of Marriage Builders, so let's approach this as a learning experience. In your own words, what started the present conflict? How would MB principles have led you to handle that differently, and how would these same principles have you handle a resolution?

ij, Dr. Harley is a big believer in the need for men to pursue their wives. When love bank balances are low it is usually up to the husband to bring those balances up. The strategy you are using of waiting for your wife to go first is not what Dr. Harley recommends, because it doesn't work.

Get your balance in your wife's love bank up - get her in love with you. THEN see how she feels about meeting your emotional needs.

If this is too emotionally difficult for you, then see your doctor about antidepressants.

I encourage you to email Dr. Harley about all this.

ij, Dr. Harley says that love busters shouldn't be tolerated in marriage. Do you agree with Dr. Harley that your wife shouldn't tolerate your unilateral decisions (independent behavior)?


If you follow the plan your wife will eventually feel attracted to you and will want to spend time with you and meet your emotional needs.

Your wife is probably telling you about the things you are doing that are making her not want to spend time with you. Pursue and win her by addressing her complaints.

The present conflict actually started 4 years ago when our 14 yr. old (then) home-schooled son reduced the academic portion of his schooling to barely completing 1 subject and also became very uncooperative with the manual part. I wanted to follow the advice we got from a counselor but my wife would not accept the part of it that clearly laid out the consequences of not completing his agreed upon tasks.I used the POJA and agreed to her version on the try it you may like it temporary basis. Several times over the intervening years I attempted to revisit negotiations when it was clear from my perspective that his performance was far from what he seemed capable but my wife would not budge from her position. Let me make it perfectly clear that I was not enthusiastically agreed to these terms. In my wife's account she left out the details that we both agreed he should help with the garage and it was actually her that originally requested him to help. But, like many times over the years, he simply refused and went to his room. Then, before addressing him, I made a final attempt to negotiate new terms with my wife. After 4 years of this I simply lost patience. I am not happy with the way he treats us and I feel he is taking our provision for granted most of the time. I also feel he has not received the best training we could have provided had we been able to negotiate agreeable terms. So did I do my part?

I am sure Dr. Harley would be happy to help you and your wife find something you can do about your son that you are both enthusiastic about.

You did not do your part to find a solution your wife would be enthusiastic about. You simply did what you thought was best even though she was not enthusiastic. By the way, just because a counselor recommends something doesn't mean the counselor is right and your wife is wrong.

If you want to start having a love relationship with your wife again you are going to need to invest a lot more effort in finding solutions that she can be enthusiastic about.

You're going to have to be more patient than that if you want your wife to be in love with you.

Am I right in saying that your relationship with your wife is more important than what happens to your son?

NO. My suggestion would be to try using Marriage Builders and stop making unilateral decisions. You want your wife to desire you? Then stop being so undesirable. Making unilateral decisions upsets your wife and makes it less likely she will want to have sex with you.

Agree with markos. I would point out that you are not married to the counselor so her "opinion" might not work for your marriage.

Thanks for writing your thoughts here. You did some of your part by accepting that there was a problem and looking for a solution.

The most important part of your part is this:


The minute something doesn't work for her, you need to let that idea go and start looking for an idea that will work for her. One that works for you at the same time.

Becoming impatient and IGNORING that your wife FELT HORRIBLE about your proposed solution was a huge mistake.

Whether you think your idea is right or wrong doesn't matter.
The "principle" of your son defying you doesn't matter.

In the whole scheme of things, what matters most is that you show respect for your wife's feelings. Otherwise, you are going to end up alone, all to teach your son a lesson.

The idea that the husband must be the one to pursue the wife does not come out strongly in the books so that is news to me. I figured that both should be concerned about their own LB balances if they want to insure against risk of an affair. However, I will add this to my new understanding along with what I hear you saying about my recent IB.

Listening to the radio show really helps. Are you doing that daily? Have you read the article about how a husband can get the sex he desires?

Just wondering, is this your passive aggressive way of threatening an affair? Because that is the message that I got. And if I were your wife, I would feel even LESS motivated to have sex with you when you talk that way.

Dr. Harley says that the husband should win his wife over. That is true.

You are the one who caused a big problem by doing independent behavior. There is no room for ego or pride here.
Put down your weapons, Jordan, if you want your wife to feel safe with you. If you don't know how to do this, then contact Dr. Harley.

I have also repeatedly received the impression you are threatening an affair.

Yes, I get that vibe from you too, indianajordan. You may not intend it, but it sounds like you are hinting that if your wife doesn't meet your needs you'll have an affair. Saying that would be a massive love bank withdrawal, of course!

It's important to understand that even though the tagline of HNHN is "building an affair proof marriage," Dr. Harley does not say that unmeet needs lead to affairs. On the board we clarify it with this "equation":

met emotional needs + extraordinary precautions = no affair
unmet emotional needs + lack of extraordinary precautions = affair
(so far so good - very clear)
met emotional needs + lack of extraordinary precautions = affair (see that?)
unmet emotional needs + extraordinary precautions = no affair

For most unfaithful spouses we see on this board, there is a betrayed spouse at home whose emotional needs are not met and who still did not have an affair. Food for thought.

Yes, meeting emotional needs helps "insure" against an affair, but it is not a necessary or a sufficient condition. Be careful not to imply that unmet emotional needs lead to an affair.

Peace and Goodwill by Dr. Harley

How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage? By Dr. Harley

"My position on conflict resolution in any romantic relationship is that whenever a couple has a conflict, their choice should not be between doing whatever he wants or whatever she wants (win-lose), but rather doing what they both want (win-win). They could avoid all of the unpleasantness I've been describing by simply accepting this basic premise.

My goal for husbands who want to make their wives happy is for them to limit their choices to win-win solutions to all marital conflicts. And I put a great deal of effort into helping them learn to achieve that objective. Why just husbands, you may ask? Why not put equal effort into helping wives? Well, I'd like to be able to put equal effort into helping both spouses, but I usually find myself focusing most of my attention on husbands because they're the ones who resist finding win-win solutions the most. Women usually seem to see the wisdom of it almost immediately, while it usually takes men a while longer to catch on."

From How to Make Your Wife Happy by Dr. Harley

Great post Apples!!

I certainly am not threatening an affair. I was simply saying that from the materials I have read the concept of democratic equality (equal voice, equal commitment, equal representation,) seemed to be the standard, therefor both should be concerned about LB balances, risk of affair and both should pursue the relationship. As I now read the above this is being clarified. I love my wife very much and am on here because I am committed to learning how to express that to her. However, I do hear you saying that an unintended message may be coming thru to her and I think this is true. In an argument many years ago I did make that threat and although I did not mean it then and have never repeated it and have never had an affair, that is what she is still hearing. What do I do now?

People can see through fabrications like that, you know.

If your objective is to have a romantic relationship, then you are defeating yourself. Even the most obtuse indirect references to affairs is a sure fire way to withdraw love units. Your wife is well aware of what is up with you and to imply otherwise is a disrespectful judgement.

If your objective is to win the debate, then you are going to have to build better arguments. Marriage Builders principles make poor talking points for winning from the perspective you are advancing.

I would focus all of your attention on wooing her back instead of pushing her away. Instead of telling her she MUST have sex with you, you need to focus on being so pleasant and attractive that she will desire you.

1. Apologize. The plan is designed to affair proof your marriage. But saying that to your spouse may sound like a threat "do this or I will have an affair." Instead, talk about wanting to build a safe, romantic marriage. Safety= affair proof = EPs,but is a much more palatable way to express it.

2. Plan a great date you will both enjoy. Work on the UA plan for this weekend if you haven't already. This will help you create good will. But you need to enjoy this date too so you will feel in love and have good will. ( My H and I will ride go-carts this weekend and go truck shopping so we can take our kayaks out more. You dont have to go on a dinner date to have fun.)

3. Then Review POJA steps. Focus on trying to understand her position about the issue with your son. Then brainstorm to find a win-win solution. If you dont Choose a solution during the first conversation, that's okay. Dr. Harley revommends people carry a little notebook in their pockets so you can write down ideas throughout the day. Then you can explore those ideas together. Some people are helped by having a scheduled time (not UA) to discuss problems.

Concerning the conflict over our son, I am suggesting that we contact Dr. Harley for help finding a win-win resolution before we do anything. My wife is insisting that I must agree to do whatever it takes so that our son will return home,including agreeing to maintain the previous arrangement (about which I never grew enthusiastic) and then try to find a win-win. I never asked or suggested our son leave, only that he comply with his parents request that he help out with the garage or forfeit some priviledge. The decision to leave was his own. What do you suggest I do?

Contact Dr. Harley. Do nothing until you hear back. Do nothing doesn't mean maintain the status quo; it literally means do nothing.

It may help the two of you to get into the coaching proqgram.

Well, "do nothing while negotiating" applies when there is no enthusiastic agreement about a course of action. However, when an independent course of action has already taken place, the recourse is to revert to the situation before the IB occurred, and negotiate from there.

The IB in this case seems to have been for you to depart from the previously agreed strategy for disciplining your son. His leaving the home was not your IB, but a consequence of it.

Jordan-
I recommend that you apologize to your wife for unilaterally taking away son's laundry and shower privileges because it wasn't jointly agreed to. I would also suggest that you offer to your wife the idea of giving those privileges back until a new agreement is made about how to handle this in the future.

I also recommend that you apologize to son for acting unilaterally and let him know that even though you were disappointed in his behavior, that you and mom are going to get on the same page and he can be sure that future decisions will be united.

Believe it or not, saying that very thing will teach your son that in the future, mom can't save him from decisions made. He will know that you stand together.

Ask wife if she will agree to that plan along with an appointment to negotiate solutions to the resentment you are feeling about son's situation.

What do you think?

You're fine with the son coming home, right? Let her know that.

Remove the consequences that you imposed unilaterally and tell your wife you will never impose consequences unilaterally again. Tell her from now on all parenting steps will be taken with joint agreement.

And contact Dr. Harley ASAP. Go ahead and write him, don't wait for your wife; she can go ahead and write him, too.

By the way, since your wife wasn't enthusiastic about your son cleaning the garage, don't call it your son's "parents'" request. It was your request. It didn't come from both of you.

[Don't debate me on this; just trust me that your wife was obviously reluctant about this whole deal, not enthusiastic.]

BTW, Dr. Harley told me that if husband and wife can't agree on parenting then "let the kids run wild." I know that's hard to swallow, but it works. It ought to work a lot easier for you than for us, because your son is grown and can't be disciplined any more anyway and is going to live his own life at this point whether his parents like it or not.

I apologized to my wife for my IB, unilateral decision and for hurting her feelings. Yes I never wanted my son to leave, I am fine with him coming home. I took him out for dinner last night and apologized for my behavior and for hurting his feelings. I invited him to come home and restored his privileges. If he will come home he did not say. A couple days ago he asked if I would speak to a spiritual counselor from our church with whom he has already spoken and I met with them after our dinner. He is soon to be 19, has his own phone,car, full-time job with a promise for license training,a fair bit of money saved from his earnings and a girl friend. The place he is staying is closer to where she lives. On the phone he tearfully told me he loves me very much and expressed concern for my happiness and worry over his mother separating from me. If he decides he is ready to leave I would understand. He did not speak specifically about how uncomfortable he is at home due to our marital struggles. Concerning planning a great date for this weekend, a couple days ago she told me she "can't stand to look at my face". Yesterday I asked her how she would feel about spending time with me and she replied that she thinks we are "past that". We are heavily scheduled with family commitments already and as I have said before it has felt to me for a long time that they are a priority over UA time for her. I am not motivated for doing the hours of city driving and all the tasks her mother needs done when I feel like she really does not care about me or that I feel unappreciated. My stomach churns just thinking about it. What should I do? How do I tell her that I am not mutually enthusiastic about this weekend when there is no promise of anything pleasant in it for me without her feeling pressured or controlled/manipulated? Especially when I am anxious about merely the thought of trying to have a conversation with her about it?

UA time is not for discussing conflicts. It is for kicking up your heels, laughing and having fun together.

However, if there is independent behavior, disrespect or demands during UA time complaints can and should be made.
If the invitation includes demands or disrespect, it can and should be addressed.

You've spoken about two very separate things here:

I think you have done all you could to try and reverse the situation to what it was before your independent behaviour. Obviously, your son has free will, and therefore has the ultimate role to play in whether things can go back to where they were, allowing you and your wife to renegotiate about how to deal with him on the occasions that he is uncooperative.

How does your wife feel about how things went at and after the dinner?

You should never have become scheduled - heavily or lightly - with family commitments that you were not enthusiastic about. Making reluctant agreements creates resentment in the reluctant spouse, and the result is a loss of love. You need to learn not to make these agreements.

You need to tell your wife today that you are not enthusiastic about the arrangements that you've made, and that you'd like to discuss what can be done about them. Only you know whether you do not want to do tasks for her mother at all, or whether you might be enthusiastic under certain conditions. You could explore other ways or getting the tasks done, or perhaps not doing them all this weekend.

The point is that you must be honest about your response when your wife makes a proposal. Do not agree to do things that you really do not want to do, and if you have already agreed, withdraw from that agreement.

Before any more of you reply I need to add the following I just received.I left red roses and a nice card expressing how sorry I am for the hurts I have caused her on the table for when she came downstairs this morning.(We no longer share a bed.) She thanked me for the flowers and all the sentiments expressed in the card. Then she informed me that she is actively looking for a place for herself to move to for the summer. She wants to pursue "healing and reconciliation". She plans to evict tenants of ours for the fall and move to that location later. She is also planning to look for a job to replace the income loss. This information will probably affect your responses. I calmly listened to all she had to say and have given her no response. So how should I respond and how does this affect the weekend?

Well, giving her no response wasn't the greatest move. Why didn't you tell her how you felt about this plan? What is she to make of your silence?

I would seriously commit to signing up for the coaching program if she would be willing. A big issue is eliminating lovebusters and you aren't addressing her complaints (until last night) in a caring way. You argue and blame her for complaining at the wrong time. You guys need serious accountability and support to turn this around.

She needs to see that you are willing to learn how to respect her and treat her better. Are you willing to do that? The online program is a year commitment. They focus on one thing at a time starting with the worst problem.

Btw, I don't work for mb. Did the online program, which is why I suggest it.

Agree. That was a chance to tell her that you are willing to change the way you go about things and that you care about her.

Which you do, or you wouldn't be here. Don't withhold that point from her.

I understand that you were probably silent to avoid making a mistake. But it is okay to tell her that you would be disappointed if she left.

You are correct. I was silent mainly because I was afraid of making a mistake. I had to make sure I could stay calm first. After a while I did explain(calmly) why I was silent but addressing that plan seemed too overwhelming in the moment. Instead I brought up the subject of this weekend and asked if there was any possibility of spending any UA time with her if I go. As of yet I have received no commitment. I explained that I was waiting for some guidance from this forum. I understand that UA time is for the purpose of having fun, not discussing conflict and that building love is the priority over resolving conflict. Since April we have spent literally hundreds of hours discussing our conflicts and falling woefully short of spending 15-20 hours of true UA time each week. Almost every time we have gone out she raises some conflict and invariably the conversation gets unpleasant. I broke down in tears when I explained that I could not take riding in the car for hours this weekend discussing conflict issues. It is killing my love for her. How do I help her understand how important it is for us to go out to have some FUN JUST THE 2 OF US?

ij, my guess is that she can't enjoy UA time because the conflicts aren't resolved. If you would use what you can learn here to start to find solutions to these conflicts that she is enthusiastic about, she could probably begin to enjoy spending time with you again.

I suspect that she brings up a conflict to you and it gets discussed but a solution is never adopted that both she and you are enthusiastic about. So the conflict persists. Meanwhile, new conflicts get added. Eventually there is a pile that is crushing her so hard that she can't stand it and wants to escape from it.

Scheduling a time to discuss conflicts may help. You may need more frequent appointments at first, perhaps twice per week. If everyone knows conflicts will be addressed shortly, enjoying the moment is usually easier.

Yes I am willing to learn to respect her and treat her better, and eliminate LB. We spoke about the coaching program and I think she is willing. We did go together on the weekend and spent some pleasant UA time as agreed. The driving time went well. Toward the end I brought up a schedule conflict. The discussion went ok. We are still brainstorming. One possibility involves spending 4-5 days/nights apart. Is that too risky at this point?

I don't understand - why are you contemplating spending a week apart? What scheduling conflict is requiring this?

Is this connected to your wife's plan to separate from you? Is this a suggestion for the separation to be part-time?

Indianajordan, if your wife is telling you "You can't live here until you can stop being demanding, disrespectful, and/or angry" then yes you should leave until you can stop those behaviors. (And you should stop them immediately so that you do not have to leave.)

Otherwise, you should not leave your home. If your job is telling you to be away from your home then either take your wife with you or find another job. If your wife is telling you to leave your home, you should be eliminating the problem that is making her need to be away from you rather than trying to schedule things.

There is no reason to leave if you are willing to protect your wife from your unpleasant self. Let go of your "man pride". It doesn't serve your marriage. Stop being disrespectful. Stop being disagreeable. Stop arguing. Stop taking your frustration out on her and throwing digs at her to to keep her off balance.

If she agrees, then YOU call and get signed up for the program immediately. Do your homework every week. Focus on listening to your wife's complaints. Write them down. Figure out a way to change that situation.

If you do these things then over a few weeks, your wife will feel safer with you and won't need the separation. You will start to notice her goodwill toward you.

No it is not about part-time separation. We live near my wife's family, not mine. She can see her sisters regularly. Her mother is a widow, still in her own home. My closest immediate relative lives a twelve hour drive away. My only brother(whom I try to see whenever I can, but it has never more than once a year) lives nearly across the country but will be visiting other relatives I have not seen in a long time 12 hours away this 4th of July weekend. I believed we had agreed months ago to make the trip to see them. However, my mother-in-law (whom we spend time with many times each year) is on a waiting list for heart surgery that will probably be scheduled with very short notice and my wife wants to be available to help care for her afterward, whenever it might occur. My mother-in-law has retired sisters and sisters-in-law that live very close by, 2 other daughters and grandchildren that can help. So what do we do? She is not enthusiastic about our original plan and I am not enthusiastic about changing them. I don't want to come across that I do not care about her feelings in this but I am seriously disappointed. She says major surgery for her mother (and her feelings) should trump other family endeavors (my feelings). So should we each just do our own thing?

No, you should not do your own thing. The default position is to do nothing until a new agreement is reached about which you are both enthusiastic. That means that you do not see your family on 4th of July and she does not make herself available to help her mother.

You might want to email Dr Harley and ask for his assistance in brainstorming a solution.

And you need to look for a solution that your wife will be enthusiastic about.

How can you find a way for your wife to be able to provide care for her mother surrounding her surgery in a way that you will be enthusiastic about? Find a way for your wife to WIN that is also a WIN for you.

My wifes love busters and unpleasant ways of speaking to me lately, as you may surmise from her posts, have left me feeling un-attracted to her and I have retreated to a safe distance emotionally because opening myself up to be affectionate with her or engaging in intimate conversation feels unsafe. I know this program gives gender specific advice and my wife tells me that you advise her not to have sex with me unless she "feels like it". Is this true?( we have not had sex in a week and I have not expected it under the circumstances) If so, would you advise me to show affection to her when I don't 'feel like it'? She spent days denying her disrespect and IB and at the same time says she is feeling miserable about our relationship because of the way I am treating her. Is it always up to the husband to make the first moves back toward intimacy ( which I did do when I left her a nice note immediately after her IB ) and how do I judge the proper timing (do I begin those moves though it still feels unsafe due to unrecognized LB)?

A nice note does not 15-20 hours of UA make. Indiana, I'm rooting for you guys, but to be honest you're not giving me much to root for here!

The are like really basic things, what have you don to become aware of the MB program?

Have you read the Basic Concepts? The articles on sexual aversion? It's super important for you not to push for SF, because that's how aversion gets created.

And it is critical for you to up your efforts in affection, IC, and RC, since you aren't making SF attractive to her right now. 15-20 hours. Did you plan this Sunday? It's Tuesday, man, time to get to work. You can do this!

Are you listening to the radio show? What is your program to save your marriage?

Indiana, in reading your wife's posts, one strong feeling I've had is that your UA time is probably suffering, and it's doubtful that you are having planning meetings to schedule heavy chunks of UA time. Without UA, goodwill suffers. Without goodwill, the downward spiral begins.

Am I correct about the UA being off track? Task/work planning should come after UA. Focus on 4 hours, of Recreational companionship and fun, positive, Intimate conversation, and the Affection and Sex environment gets back on track.

Keep in mind also that Dr. Harley tells us not to "punish" our spouses. So when you think about how to treat her, ask yourself, "Am I showing goodwill? Am I punishing? Hopefully she will do the same. Each of you is personally responsible for this.

He also says not to reward lovebusters. Doing UA time is not rewarding lovebusters, It is an act of goodwill, a basic necessity for the relationship. I like to think of it as food. Without it you slowly starve. I think heavy doses of proper UA helps us get back on track after such situations.


I know that doesn't exactly answer your question, but does it help at all?

Yes it is. See Dr. Harley's article on sexual aversion.


Yes. When the system has broken down, Dr. Harley advises that somebody needs to "prime the pump" to get the marriage working again. The main burden of pump priming usually falls on the husband.

See:
Should the Policy of Joint Agreement
Be Violated When Trying to Meet Your Spouse's Emotional Needs?


When your wife denies her love busters, you don't solve the problem by arguing with her about it for days. That kind of back and forth is murder for your marriage. The love bank withdrawals will be tremendous. This is the very definition of being in a hole and needing to stop digging.


Well, she IS miserable about your relationship because of the way you are treating her.


A lot of the time, yes.


First stop arguing with her and trying to get her to agree with you.

Then start trying to spend enjoyable time with her again. She may decline at first. Let her decline. But keep coming back and trying again. Show over time that if she will start spending time with you again she will not end up in an argument with you.

Read this article for the importance of your wife not having sex with you unless she is aroused and feels emotionally connected to you:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.html

We have not been arguing about it for days. I did not want to talk about it at all in order to protect my love bank balance. I was hoping she would go on here on her own and ask you guys but she only did that after I suggested it to her in a discussion that deteriorated badly, but for which I apologized minutes later. You guys did point out her LB to her right away but I did not sense a recognition of it coming from her until finally yesterday. So from my perspective, I have not been punishing her or rewarding her IB, I have simply been hiding out since her IB in an emotionally safe place, waiting to sense from her that the "coast is clear" and it is safe to come out of hiding.

Indiana, I couldn't agree more with what Marcos said.

We are ALL blind at times to our lovebusters, you included.

It doesn't help to go into hiding and stop feeding the marriage until the other person admits guilt. That seems demanding to me.

I know that it doesn't seem fair to play by the rules when she isn't. Don't let that keep you from priming the pump.

Remember when you first turned a corner and how it affected her?

Go back there. Submit to each other. You will both win in the end.

You are correct that our UA time has been a bit short but we have been having planning meetings regularly. Her mothers slow recovery from open heart surgery has demanded extra time lately and harvest is a very busy time every year. Fitting it all in has been very difficult. In years past we have tried to equalize it later by taking some 7 day vacations after all the winter preparations are complete. Getting through the crunch however is always a strain.

How many hours per week do you spend on undivided attention? What do you do on your dates?

You are correct that this is a murderous pattern in our marriage. You are also correct that we are all blind at times to our own LB and I do include myself. However, this goes beyond occasional blindness to deep denial with blame-shifting and severe disability to admit mistakes. I was undoubtedly the person of my generation closest to my father-in-law (God rest his soul) and over the 30+years I knew the man he NEVER admitted fault, even when confronted in my presence with the abuse (including physical) of his daughters. Once I personally received the blame for him hurting himself. My mother-in-law was too afraid to confront or separate. This is the parental example my wife witnessed. When she asked you concerning her recent IB she used words like "impossible" because she actually really could not accept or admit to herself or anyone else that she had done anything to hurt me. Then you will find in her posts her attempt to shift the blame to me, she is the one being hurt by me. She should separate from me because my actions are the ONLY reasons we have a poor marriage. Call all of this DJ if you like but I know my churning gut,sweats, sleeplessness, and depression are not lying to me. This last go-round is just an example of the countless circuits through the desert outside the promised land in the last 33 years. If she leaves now it is probably for the better, I don't think my health can take any more.

Stop trying to make her admit blame and focus on being a pleasant, loving husband. No one wants to live with a scold who tries to force admissions of guilt. LEad by example!

Even if all of this were true, it does not prevent you from being constructive about the situation instead of destructive.

Your selfish instincts led you to vomit this garbage out because your stomach is churning. But knowingly DJing your wife here and threatening to leave are destructive ways of satisfying your taker.

This is the messy pattern you both repeat. Trust me that I know from experience, that when you follow the program things will change over time. You will feel much better if you stop trying to solve the irrational past by arguing to prove fault. This applies to your wife as well, but don't you tell her that. No counselor needed. Firm up your relaxation skills and

MOVE FORWARD!



"Honey, I'm sorry that we disagreed. I would love for us to move forward. I would love it if you would go out to dinner with me tonight?"

She says you had an AO. That is the ultimate punishment.

Your disrespect of your wife is scathing. What are you doing about that?

Okay, so do this:

Equalizing UA later works about as well as "I'll sleep when I'm dead." I don't recommend it at all. This is like trying to run an engine when the oil is old and half burned up and gone from leaks, without changing the oil.

UA time is the oil for your life.

Okay, so do this:

From here

From here

From here

From here

From here

She told you I had an AO but I am certain she did not admit to you her AO because this is the main issue over which she is in denial. I have not been calling it AO for so long I just now realized I have not been using that title with you either. Above I described it as her "unpleasant way of speaking to me". For so many years now I have received such firm denial and reprimand for the slightest hint that she was having an AO that I stopped using the word to describe her behavior. I guess it's a habit. I can assure you that her IB last week was the action of an AO, but she mostly chooses verbal attack. During our "discussion" before she stormed away she got loud, repeatedly interrupted me while I was speaking, and used words and phrases like "impossible" and "this is stupid". When the children were smaller she would sometimes yell at them so loudly I could hear it 30 yards from the house. Loudly interrupting me with phrases such as "YOU ARE WRONG" and just this past Sunday " A BIG FAT LIE" when she is clearly angry is an AO to me no matter how many years she vehemently denies it. But wait, that's not all. In the past she has thrown books and kitchen utensils across the room and onto the table, slammed doors and punched me in the arm and chest clearly while angry. I am not telling you this to bad-mouth my wife, shift blame or justify my actions. I have plenty I of personal work to do. I am simply giving you information so you have full knowledge from which to counsel me. This may help explain things.

So, what are you going to do about your disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts? What is your plan?

Okay, now that we have the full picture, this is what you need to do:


This is what you need to do to bring your marriage back from this situation.

I am not sure what to do about my lack of respect for her. I believe that, to a degree, respect is earned. A few pages back in my post I asked you guys about my wife showing up late for an agreed upon time whether this is disrespectful to me and someone said that it is. This recent go-round was just another example in a long history of this practice. It is part of this "murderous pattern": tell my husband I agree to..../ not follow through with what I say/ blame my husband or someone or something else for not not following through. I could not tell you how many plans for weight-lose I have graciously agreed to/supported/agreed to pay for that were ineffective over the last 20 years and she is still over-weight. This ingrained behavior does not earn respect with me. What do you suggest?

Writing disrespectful posts like this is not likely to motivate her to want to do anything. Do you want her to be enthusiastic about your marriage? Because your approach will not be very effective.

Am I remembering correctly that Dr. Harley asked to drop the weight loss issue because the request was unreasonable?

First of all I am not writing this post to her I am writing it to you and secondly from my perspective carrying extra weight for 20+years for a time breaching the obesity threshold is a health issue. The healthies and longest living people in the world are those who are not over weight. I made this case to Dr. Harley in an email and never got a reply . This issue will almost undoubtedly affect our marriage in the future and it is a situation to which I have never been in enthusiastic agreement. Thirdly I was merely using the weight loss issue as an example of the pattern. I have not mentioned weight loss to my wife since the broadcast

Dr Harley told you to knock it off. Your wife reads here so you need to stop it. All you do is aggravate the situation.

I make it a point never to read my wife's posts and I expected the same in return. We had a discussion not long ago about protecting our LB balance from unintended withdrawal. I believed this was a safe place to look for help openly and not lose love units. I realize now that is not the case. I wish she would have told me. Yesterday morning I asked if she would like to schedule UA time for the remainder of the week and she said she does not want to spend any UA time with me. What do I do now? I have already apologized for my part of what happened the day before and shared some of my perspective on it. She said she felt punished and abused and that my LB balance is seriously depleted. How do I build it back up when she is unwilling to invest UA time?

Also if UA time is for the purpose of meeting all the identified top emotional needs and SF is one of them and you recommend 3 to 4 hours UA time 4 times a week is it reasonable to expect to receive SF on each date even if my LB balance is low?

Found somewhere on the internet:

Grab a plate and throw it on the ground.
-Ok, Done.
Did it break?
-Yes.
Now say sorry to it.
-Sorry.
Did it go back to the way it was before?
-No
Do you understand?


On thinking DJ's, in several radioshows I heard Dr Harley advise against thinking DJ's. If you let your mind DJ, how will you be able to stop lovebusting?

If you want her to go out with you, then you should focus all of your attention on wooing her back instead of pushing her away. You can "apologize" all you want, but it does not erase the memory of your poor treatment. The only thing that will erase that bad memory is a pattern of good treatment.

Pretend like you are single and you are trying to persuade a woman to date you. How would you act? Would you expect to get a date if you insulted her?

I would focus on building up her lovebank so she will go out on dates with you again.

Also, have you completely eliminated porn? Are you looking at females?

This would be how to create a sexual aversion, you've already asked this and markos already answered it.

When you consistently change your behaviors into wooing your wife back, you will lose these unrealistic expectations and enjoy the time you get together.

When was the last time you looked into the MB coaching? Do you feel like this is something you have been effective at working alone?

I had the same thought.

Jordan, please double check that this bad habit is buttoned up tightly.

The first step is to stop the bleeding. You can't lovebust her repeatedly and then try to compensate by meeting needs.

LOVEBUSTERS BUST UP LOVE.


1st step:

Put your wife in a "bubble".

Have you heard Dr. Harley talk about this? It really helped my husband to hear how to do this.

I have heard nothing of putting my wife in a bubble or not thinking DJ. I believe I am making great progress. To think that 10 months ago I had never even read the LB book nor did I know how to access the Internet. I think I have learned a lot and implemented many changes. Breaking so many 25+ year old bad habits while simultaneously surviving major family/life stressors has been tremendously difficult and exhausting.

IJ, your wife won't even go out on a date with you so no, this is not great progress. Did you see my suggestion to your wife about signing up for the professional program? When do it yourself does not work, you might want to consider hiring professionals. You will get real results. My husband and I went through the program in 2007 and it really does work.

I do not really know what to make of this question. Of course I see females they are everywhere. I do not live on Dr. Harley deserted island but I do have almost extreme extraordinary precautions in place and have always had our entire marriage. I have never had nor do I currently have a porn habit. As I said on the radio I am simply struggleing finding my wife attractive due to LB. And I am sure she is struggling to find me attractive as well

This very harsh quote:


does not square with this reality, which DidntQuit based on information you previously provided about her height/weight:


It seems like you have no appreciation for the drastic changes she allowed her body undertake to in order to provide your seven children. Many things about her body will never be the same due to the child bearing she did.

When I started reading your thread I was under the impression your wife had gained an enormous amount of weight. Imagine my surprise when one of your posts stated you married her when she was 160 pounds and now she weighs 185 pounds.

Also, your thread started with your demanding to go to a beach vacation so you could ogle women and become aroused so you could tolerate sex with your "overweight" wife. And if she didn't want to come along for that party, you wanted to go by yourself.

You clearly have a contrast effect going in some way. When you see other women when you go about your daily life, do you muse about them in terms of their sexuality? Do you still look around for attractive women so you can visualize them while you have sex with your "overweight" wife?

Your mind is a powerful force. If you are not currently looking at other women for sexual arousal, you are clearly remembering back to something "better" than your wife and contrasting her to it IF you are unappetized by sex with a woman who is 15 pounds heavier than on her wedding day. After bearing 7 children for you.

It seems like you need to discipline your mind much better and purposefully distract yourself when these thoughts come back or when you see an attractive woman. You can use strategies like repeating some phrase over and over in your mind until the thoughts leave. Also, instantly deflecting your eyes from the source of attraction.

I know men with beautiful wives who still need to do this, and they purposefully train themselves to do so. It seems you were purposefully indulging in these trains of thoughts and habits. To eliminate the contrast effect, you need to discipline your thoughts, behaviors and actions better.

I agree that you have put in effort and made progress. I think that you BOTH would benefit by getting direct help from a MB coach and Dr. Harley. Consider the coaching program. They can help you sort things out and prioritize. They will shelter you both from each other's brutal honesty and help you stay on track.
They are kind and patient. Not judgmental.


Our situation had many similarities to yours, and our best efforts weren't working. We needed the structure and order of the program. We needed the coach and Dr. Harley. Now, 5 years from crisis, I am posting because the program works. And after paying for it, I still feel indebted to MB.

What would you say about doing the coaching course? If you do your part, (and I have faith that you will), it is totally worth it.

Yesterday I told my wife through tears that I am afraid to talk to her. This morning at 7 am I warmly said good morning and touched her tenderly. She then asked whether I have been taking my mood supplements to which I replied no. Then she said " I think you should take your supplements". Cue: gut tightening. Very first thing in the morning. I replied that sounded DJ to me and that I could not continue the conversation. As she continued to speak about how wrong I was I suggested she ask you guys. She eventually left the room without saying anything further and I proceeded to force some food down into the turmoil going on in my gut. After breakfasting alone and in silence I took her a coffee fixed just the way she likes it at 8am. She said thank you without making eye contact and once again I touched her tenderly as I left the room. Now I am afraid again what will happen next. Do I open my mouth to speak with the very real possibility of receiving more abuse? If I do not speak, I am then accused of punishing and ignoring her. I went about my business and she finally left for work at 11am. I was working in the backyard by now and she informed me, not coming close but from the driveway, that she was leaving. I was too tense to bring myself to go to her to say good bye. My gut finally began to settle down after she left. I do not know whether she contacted you or not, but I wanted to give my perspective. This may speak to the problems I am having being attracted to her. Other than a single no eye contact thank you she has said nothing warm, has not come close to me or touched me.

You did a great job of not punishing her lovebusters with more lovebusters. A fantastic step forward!

Also, you did a great job of pursuing her. She may not have said anything, but women notice actions like this. After a number of interactions like this, she will feel safe to start dropping her guard. She needs to come to the place where she can trust that this is the new you. And you need to be careful to not give her any reasons to doubt that.

It feels gut wrenching to you now, but you are taking the most logical actions to restore your marriage.

It would be best not to call her out like this, but to simply say that comment bothers you. If she is discussing it in a way that feels disrespectful to you, you can say that you would like to discuss her complaint at a later time. If she continues on, you can leave the room.

But do come back to the complaint when you feel calmer. Don't use this as a tactic to avoid addressing the complaint or else the problem will simply grow.

Did you feel that the mood supplements were ever helpful to you?

This is all beyond what we are equipped to deal with. I would strongly suggest you sign up for the online professional program. Did you see the post I made to your wife?

I cry a lot, relative to other men.

I don't recommend crying while complaining to your wife.

I agree with your wife that you need to be taking something for your mood. Most women are not equipped to deal with a husband losing it emotionally. Some of us do, especially if things are bad, but if you want things to become better, you have to work the plan that will fix things, regardless of how you feel.

I don't have time to review your thread tonight, but if memory serves I've made a number of comments to you about pieces of the plan that you aren't following.

Well I did what Dr Harley said would be very difficult for me to do I eliminated angry outbursts now 6 months. Now my wife is separating from me because she says she is feeling increasingly unsafe. What is going on?

You are asking the wrong person. Did you ask her what is going on?

You were having angry outbursts 2 months ago, in September.

Selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts on your part.

Have you been listening to the radio show daily all this time so you can be learning how to eliminate these?

I did ask her what is going on. She told me she is feeling increasingly unsafe. I am not sure what you are referring to for SD DJ and AO. The one I can remember I apologized for immediately as recommended and I thought that was forgiven. How is 1 in 6 months that was handled as recommended translate into an increase when in the past they were more often? When I asked her this she said the AO have stopped but the anger has morphed into other behaviours silent treatment and physical restraint. The last time we discussed the coaching program I told her I was willing and her response felt like her blaming me that I had not done it yet and that now it was too late. She does not think the program will work. She is of the opinion that we tried the program and it does not work. My perspective is that we were clearly not following the program enough to receive enough of the benefits.

What is meant by "physical restraint?" And what about the silent treatment?

What have you been doing to attract her back?

Can you tell us more about the physical restraint?

Do you recognize that you really blew this, or are you under the impression that it's her fault?

If YOU start following the program now, unilaterally, you can probably win her back.

Your anger is your enemy. Angry Outbursts are the biggest Lovebuster. Have you really eliminated them for 6 months? Do you have an angry or belligerent attitude? Can you be kinder, no matter the feedback?

If YOU start following THIS prgogram NOW, you CAN probably get your wife back.

It was evening and we had agreed to spend some UA time in our room for SF. Our relationship has been tense with conversation over conflict but this evening has been better and I was looking forward to the intimacy we had been missing for days. We are in bed together with our bodies totally intertwined when her phone sounds a text message. She instantly moves to retrieve her phone but I am so enjoying the moment I am reluctant to let her go,but I do let her go after a second. After attending to the text she told me that what I did bothered her so I apologized immediately. After a brief discussion where we each got to give our perspective, we resumed our love-making and slept in the same bed all night. In the morning however, it seemed to have completely changed. She said she was feeling increasingly unsafe and told me she was leaving me.

About 10 days prior I had taken her to a nice hotel in the mountains for 3 days 2 nights UA time away from it all. On the morning we had to leave she brought up a past failure of mine. I did not recognize it for what it was in the moment, I only recognized that something bothered me. We talked about in during the drive home but I still could not put my finger on it. We slept in the same bed that night and things seemed ok. I knew that if I could get some time alone and allow my thoughts to wander it would come to me what had bothered me. So next day she busied herself with something I do not recall and I sat reading. After a couple hours she came and sat next to me on the loveseat making body contact and we watched some TV. That helped relax me and sure enough that evening it dawned on me what had bothered me. We spent the evening visiting with family and slept in the same bed that night as well. Next morning I was ready to share with her what had come to me but she seemed in a very foul mood which frightened me out of bringing it up. Instead I did what I could to make a pleasant day for her, choosing to wait for a better opportunity. Finally, after another day I opened it up to her as pleasantly as possible but was not received cheerfully. She accused me of giving her the " silent treatment for days " keeping her shut out of my life and never meeting her need for intimacy.

She gave you valuable information when she told you those things. She told you the things that were bothering her in the marriage, that were keeping her from being in love with you. What did you do to address her complaints?

She is demanding a 1 year separation with 3 months no contact. Only contact allowed is via text message and only concerning the shared care of our special needs child and business decisions (we jointly run 2 small businesses). What does following the program unilaterally mean under those conditions? I have been listening to the program, not every day but regularly, and I heard Dr. Harley a few days ago warning that these types of separations are "very risky" and I can understand why. Do you recommend this for couples where their has been no affair? I remember hearing about Motel 8 therapy but this seems too severe. She tells me I should use this time for Personal Spiritual Healing which sounds to me like more DJ.

So what are you doing with this valuable feedback? She has complained about the silent treatment before so it doesn't seem it is being addressed.

Is this the physical restraint that you referenced?

Have there been other times you've physically restrained her?

Everything in red is not a helpful response to someone's pain from the past, or even their complaint in the present.

My guess is that what you consider to be a "past failure", was in fact, something that was currently happening and she was bringing it to your attention.

Assuming that my guess is correct, then your response was actually dismissing her remarks and turning to a defense mechanism to protect yourself. This defense mechanism, is the practice of becoming silent, turning your thoughts inward, and focusing on that fleeting idea of that thing SHE was doing to bother you. Please see all of the things above in red. I, I, I. Me, me, me.




What exactly was the past failure which she addressed, and is it possible that it was occurring in the present? Have you properly and constructively addressed that yet? It sounds like when she complained, you may have changed the subject to how she was hurting you. "Oh yeah? Well you do XYZ thing that bugs me!" this may not have been intentional. But is it possible that she perceived it that way? That, coupled with you holding her back from checking her phone, could have been her last straw.

As a sidenote: Considering your family dynamic, your wife would want to check her phone. I can empathize with you too. Finally you are getting the sex you want. Forcing her to comply, however, was selfish and not respectful. Did you ever apologize for that? If not, I think that you should.

I received that valuable information and I made a commitment to her that I would in the future, when I felt I needed some alone time to think, tell her beforehand that I need some time to think and that my quietness has nothing to do with her and that I am not pulling away from her or trying to shut her out of my life in any way.

Yes that is the restraint I referenced. That was her choice of words not mine. I can recall no other times when she has complained about this.

Was either of those posts a response to mine? I can't really tell.

Giving her "the silent treatment for days" does not become acceptable just because you warn her you are going to do it.

Why on earth do you need "time alone to think"? Can't you think while you're in the bathroom?

Your quietness has everything to do with her, and you are indeed trying to shut her out of your life for the length of time that you "need some time to think and to be quiet". If what you do is stay away from her, or, alternatively, stay in the same room as her but refuse to interact because you want to "think" - which means not to talk to her - then that is directly about her. It's insulting and unpleasant.

Has it occurred to you that you need to be pleasant to live with, if you want your wife to be in love with you and meet your needs? How does needing to be silent when she wants to interact with you count as being pleasant?

Good grief.

Have you ever physically restrained her prior to this?

Your wording indicates this is something you do but she hasn't complained about it before.

Yes I have physically restrained my wife before this. I remember distinctly back when we were dating her having to leave and me holding on to her because I did not want those times to end either. For me that feeling is still there and if anything it is stronger than it was then. Somehow it was received differently then.

I understand what you are saying about my quietness affecting her because it is unpleasant for her. I also see it now as a selfish demand. There was no negotiation beforehand how we would spend the day. I just decided I needed some quiet time. I can see that clearly. That was definitely selfish on my part.

The past failure she brought up was watching women on TV for the purpose of being aroused. I had gone outside for an early morning walk while she slept. When I returned she awoke and went into the washroom. I undressed and climbed into the warm spot in the bed to warm up. I put the TV on and then put my hands between my legs under the covers to warm them so they would be warm when she returned. When she came out of the bathroom she saw me sitting in bed with my hands between my legs watching TV, the home improvement channel if I remember correctly. After her comments I pulled back the covers to show her I was not aroused and had no erection. Clearly she did think it was truly happening in the moment but I showed her that I was not aroused and I truly was not watching for the purpose of being aroused. We did discuss the incident on the drive home and it was pleasant enough and I believe constructive. Only after the discussion I still had a nagging feeling that something was bothering me. It is definitely possible that she perceived my reply as blame shifting, but that was not my intent. Regarding checking her phone, I already stated that I apologized immediately. Also, we had prior discussions about not responding to the phone during UA time. Is that not what the U in UA time is all about?

Any woman would feel unsafe if a man physically restrains her.
It doesn't matter how quickly you apologize.

This is not a problem of the past -- you triggered her, and it is a problem that is very real in the present for her.

I thought you said this happened in the PAST? The way you describe, it had just happened? Did this happen years ago or am I reading you wrong?

Have you had issues with porn?

You are reading me wrong. This was a recent incident but it triggered her in her mind to an incident of the past where I actually was watching women on TV for the purpose of being aroused. The point is that this recent time I was not. Yes she was triggered but what she saw that triggered her was not actually happening. It looked like it might be happening but she was mistaken. I think Dr. Harley teaches not to bring up past failures, particularly during UA time does he not?

No, you are very wrong. She addressed a CURRENT event, not a PAST event. She saw your hands under the covers and addressed it. It doesn't matter if it wasn't happening, she thought it WAS. So this was not in the PAST. And you should stop trying to shut her up. WE KNOW WHAT DR. HARLEY TEACHES, SIR.

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This event was not in the PAST in relation to her comments. We do know the difference between past and present.

She is not motivated to follow Dr. Harley's teachings.

If you want to save your marriage, you're going to need to start following them.

One thing you need to do is quit explaining why you believe she should feel different. That's the heart of disrespect, and is a complete violation of everything Dr. Harley teaches, and she can smell it a mile away.

Do you want to turn this around and save your marriage, or do you want to try to compile a list of your wife's faults?

Indianajordan, with that history and because watching TV triggers your wife (brings your past into her present), why watch it at all?

Every time you watch TV she is likely wondering if you are comparing her to any woman who appears on the screen. You have unfortunately been quite hurtful in the ways you have let her know that she does not arouse you like other women do. Every time you watch TV, all of that is likely recalled into her present.

Can you stop watching TV? You could read or find a hobby to keep you occupied during your down time.

Yes I very much do want to save my marriage. I asked above what applying the program unilaterally looks like under the conditions of our separation.

I would try using the program to attract her back. I wouldn't use the program to get her in line, but start using it yourself.

IJ, do you have a todo list of things written down from this thread that we have suggested that you do?

Yes I believe I could stop watching TV. We lived a couple years without a TV before we had children and after the children started arriving we lived 15 years without one and we only got one then because our oldest went out and bought one. Even then it was mostly used for games. I much prefer reading or other activities.

I hear what you are saying. I will use the program only for myself. Clearly I am more than enough for me to handle. Thank you

Update: Soon to be divorced.