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It's been a long time since my last visit here. D-day was Dec 2007. For reasons that are not relevant to my question, I suddenly this past weekend began thinking about something that has been gnawing at me off and on since I found out.

Long story short, I believe that my WW engaged in certain sexual activities with OM and that she has not been open and honest with me about those activities. What's worse is that she and I engaged in these activities during her A but not since because of her refusal.

I have asked her about this directly about a year ago and she swore that I was wrong and gave a reason (excuse?) for why she will no longer do these things with me.

This bothers me for several reasons. I wonder if she is cherishing the memory of her and OM doing these things and that's why she won't do with me. I feel like she must have had a closer connection to him than she admitted to me - and I question the closeness of her feelings for me. And obviously, feeling that she is not open and honest about this, my trust in her has not been fully restored.

So my question: better to let this lie, keep it buried and deal with it? Or confront her again?

Thanks


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Hello tiredinmd, welcome back. The fact that you are still thinking of the affair 10 years later is an indication that your marriage has not recovered. When the present is happy, the mind does not wander to the traumas of the past. The goal of the MB program is to create a happy, passionate, romantic marriage. This program really does achieve this when it is used.

Have you used the program in your recovery? How much undivided attention did you give each other last week for example? Do you go out on dates?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Hi ML and thanks. There's little question that my marriage has not fully recovered. We have tried a variety of things. My W wasn't particularly a fan of MB though we did check it out at first. Also went to counseling (two different counselors a few years apart) with some success. Generally I would say that things are OK but not great. Part of that is who we each are, part is the damage from the A. It takes two committed people to fully recover, not 1-1.5.
In my case, even when things are going relatively well, and particularly when that leads to sex, if certain activities are rejected I instantly recall her A and picture her doing those things with OM. Then feel like I'm being disrespectful to myself by not calling her out on that. So this has been the cycle that I'd like to break out of, but not sure of how best to do that.


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Originally Posted By: tiredinmd
Hi ML and thanks. There's little question that my marriage has not fully recovered. We have tried a variety of things. My W wasn't particularly a fan of MB though we did check it out at first. Also went to counseling (two different counselors a few years apart) with some success. Generally I would say that things are OK but not great. Part of that is who we each are, part is the damage from the A. It takes two committed people to fully recover, not 1-1.5.
In my case, even when things are going relatively well, and particularly when that leads to sex, if certain activities are rejected I instantly recall her A and picture her doing those things with OM. Then feel like I'm being disrespectful to myself by not calling her out on that. So this has been the cycle that I'd like to break out of, but not sure of how best to do that.


I would try using Marriage Builders. It is the absolute best recovery program I have ever seen. MB is completely and totally different from traditional counseling. My H and I went through the MB program in 2007 and have had a romantic, passionate marriage since.

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Then feel like I'm being disrespectful to myself by not calling her out on that.


Bringing up the affair only brings the tragedy of the past into the present. The affair should never be mentioned again.

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if certain activities are rejected I instantly recall her A and picture her doing those things with OM. Then


Trying to guilt her into doing things with you that she doesn't want to do is a pretty sure way to create a sexual aversion. If you want her to desire sex with you, then you should only do things together that you both enjoy. If you bully her into sexual acts she doesn't enjoy, then she shouldn't have sex with you at all. You need to focus on her enjoyment.

She should always REFUSE to do anything sexually she does not enjoy. Throwing her affair in her face is a complete turn off. It is a manipulative tactic.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: tiredinmd
Hi ML and thanks. There's little question that my marriage has not fully recovered. We have tried a variety of things.


Amazingly you did not try Marriage Builders.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Continually bringing up her affair for years is a way to control and punish her. It is abuse:

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley
Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse

I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."
here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thanks ML.

MB was the first thing we "tried". My W didn't care for it and I didn't force the issue given that she was willing to try other approaches, i.e. counseling.

Sorry for being unclear about the sex. I don't throw it in her face or try to guilt her into anything. If I felt the need or urge to do that I would leave the marriage. My point is that I know she did things with OM (presumably out of enjoyment rather than guilt), that she did those same things with me during her A, and that since the A ended she will not do those things with me. Now I suppose she could have done them with OM for reasons other than enjoyment, in which case I would like to know those reasons. If she did them out of enjoyment why will she not do them with me? Again, to be clear, these are questions I've asked myself, not her. Any specific advice would be appreciated.

Last edited by tiredinmd; 10/03/16 12:00 PM.

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Originally Posted By: tiredinmd
Thanks ML.

MB was the first thing we "tried". My W didn't care for it and I didn't force the issue given that she was willing to try other approaches, i.e. counseling.


That is where you need to start. As you have learned, other approaches don't work. What part did she not care for?

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Sorry for being unclear about the sex. I don't throw it in her face or try to guilt her into anything. If I felt the need or urge to do that I would leave the marriage.


That is not what you said above:

Quote:
In my case, even when things are going relatively well, and particularly when that leads to sex, if certain activities are rejected I instantly recall her A and picture her doing those things with OM. Then feel like I'm being disrespectful to myself by not calling her out on that. So this has been the cycle that I'd like to break out of, but not sure of how best to do that.


Quote:
My point is that I know she did things with OM (presumably out of enjoyment rather than guilt), that she did those same things with me during her A, and that since the A ended she will not do those things with me. Now I suppose she could have done them with OM for reasons other than enjoyment, in which case I would like to know those reasons. If she did them out of enjoyment why will she not do them with me? Again, to be clear, these are questions I've asked myself, not her. Any specific advice would be appreciated.


If she enjoyed those things, she would do them with you, wouldn't she? Most people who are high on heroin, crack, alcohol or an affair, do creepy things they would never dream of doing while sober.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Why was your W unenthusiastic about MB? Was there a specific part of the MB program she did not like?

The advice you will receive is to use the MB program to recover your marriage. There really is a very narrow path to recovering from an affair and most marriages fail at this. Many of the people who post here have tried different tactics and counseling, before eventually committing to this program. That is why we post, because it has worked to transform our marriages in a way that would never have been possible with another program and we want to pay that forward.

To answer your question about sex, if you create a great marriage TODAY you will stop thinking about and comparing your marriage to the past. At that point, you can work together to have a sex life that is great for both of you. Dr Harley often advises people who have issues in their sex lives to fix their marriage first in other ways, and that subsequently also creates a more passionate and fulfilling sex life. So the answer you are looking for is not really about sex, but about repairing your marriage as a whole.

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When you have a WW that will not be honest and answer all your questions about her affair then you will not able to leave the affair in the past.

Because those unanswered questions on D day will still be haunting you over 30 years past D day with the BH still those needing answers.

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Originally Posted By: TheRoad
When you have a WW that will not be honest and answer all your questions about her affair then you will not able to leave the affair in the past.

Because those unanswered questions on D day will still be haunting you over 30 years past D day with the BH still those needing answers.


Oh hell no. He has all the basic facts about the affair and is suspicious about specific sexual acts with the OM. He trots this out to punish her when he is not satisfied in bed. That is NOT what Dr Harley means when he says to get the facts. He needs to drop it.

No more affair talk. NONE.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ML - Thanks again for your reply. However, you seem to be reading things in my posts that I have not written.

You highlighted, as evidence of me throwing this in my W's face, my point about being upset with myself for not calling her out on this, without acknowledging that I wrote that I don't and haven't called her out on this point.

You then repeat this charge ("he trots this out to punish her") without any basis.

As to the "get the facts", do you understand that to mean all of the facts or only what you deem "basic facts"?

TheRoad - Thanks. It seems that you get my point. Much appreciated.


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Thank you Unwritten. I know what you wrote to be true. In practice though this has proven to be very difficult for my W and I.


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Originally Posted By: tiredinmd
ML - Thanks again for your reply. However, you seem to be reading things in my posts that I have not written.

You highlighted, as evidence of me throwing this in my W's face, my point about being upset with myself for not calling her out on this, without acknowledging that I wrote that I don't and haven't called her out on this point.

You then repeat this charge ("he trots this out to punish her") without any basis.


The reason I wrote that is because I thought you WERE throwing that into her face. So, if you are not, that is a good thing.

Quote:
As to the "get the facts", do you understand that to mean all of the facts or only what you deem "basic facts"?

TheRoad - Thanks. It seems that you get my point. Much appreciated.


Getting detailed sexual FACTS years after D-Day is NOT what Dr Harley has in mind. I assure you Dr Harley would tell you not to bring it up again. The affair should never be brought up again and certainly not for the purpose of discussing sexual positions because you feel cheated in your marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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So you said right here that you did throw this in her face so I am really confused:

Quote:
I have asked her about this directly about a year ago and she swore that I was wrong and gave a reason (excuse?) for why she will no longer do these things with me.


You are 9 years out and the affair is still being brought up. That is a huge problem.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: tiredinmd
I feel like she must have had a closer connection to him than she admitted to me - and I question the closeness of her feelings for me.


I think this comment hits the nail on the head. The problem IS her closeness to you. But focusing on her affair will not change that, it will make her less close to you. The way you create an integrated, romantic marriage is to use this program. Asking sexual details about her affair will create the opposite effect.

Passion and romance does not happen by accident, it happens by design.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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**EDIT**

moderator's note: familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders material before posing on these threads!

Last edited by Denali; 10/03/16 06:48 PM. Reason: TOS non MB advice
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This thread has got completely out of hand. People are now understanding your wife to have trickled truth, and to have lied, when in your first post there was no evidence of any of that - just your belief that the answer she gave you was not the truth. The problem is, if you are determined to believe that she is lying, how can she prove that she isn't? How can she prove that the reason she gave you for not doing the sexual acts is the truth?

The only way she can ever prove that she is telling the truth is to confess to all the suspicions and suppositions that you have made over the years. If she tells you anything else, she is lying. She is on a losing wicket with that attitude, and so, my friend, are you. You will never have the recovered marriage you could have if you are determined to harbour resentment because your wife has not confirmed what you believe.

You said:

Originally Posted By: tiredinmd
Long story short, I believe that my WW engaged in certain sexual activities with OM and that she has not been open and honest with me about those activities. What's worse is that she and I engaged in these activities during her A but not since because of her refusal.

I have asked her about this directly about a year ago and she swore that I was wrong and gave a reason (excuse?) for why she will no longer do these things with me.

This bothers me for several reasons. I wonder if she is cherishing the memory of her and OM doing these things and that's why she won't do with me. I feel like she must have had a closer connection to him than she admitted to me - and I question the closeness of her feelings for me. And obviously, feeling that she is not open and honest about this, my trust in her has not been fully restored.


"I believe..."

"She gave a reason (excuse?)"...

"I wonder if..."

"I feel like..."

And on the basis of those beliefs, feelings, and suspicions of excuses, you disrespectfully judge your wife - and come here and get validation for that from a poster who believes that, if the betrayed spouse wants the unfaithful spouse to describe every sexual act, then that is what the unfaithful spouse must do. Without it, there will be no recovery, he claims - contrary to the view of the expert, Dr Harley, under whose umbrella you post.

You first posted on this board at a time when Dr Harley's Marriage Builders programme was rarely discussed, and even more rarely understood. Betrayed spouses, especially betrayed husbands, believed that the faithful spouse had the right to exact any kind of revenge they wanted, short of beating up their unfaithful spouse. They could demand sex, they could demand kinky sex, they could demand the exact same sex that was practiced during the affair, they could demand that degrading sex be given with enthusiasm, and they could demand a blow-by-blow account of the kinky, degrading sex that was given with enthusiasm during the affair.

How it was thought this would ever create romantic love, and a happy marriage, is beyond most of us posting today.

Even if you know nothing about Dr Harley's recovery programme, ask yourself why you would EVER want your wife to carry out sexual acts that she does not want to do. Why would you want that? What do you think that will give you? Do you think that it will make you feel better? More of a man? Like a better man than OM? Like a man who your wife will love? What?

What are you hoping to achieve by it?

I can tell you what you'll achieve by it; you'll get a wife who will hate you for degrading and punishing her. In fact, she won't do the acts but she'll hate you anyway for pressuring her to do them, and for not believing her when she told you why she did not want to do them - and indeed for asking her about the affair 10 YEARS after it finished and 9.5 years after the details should have been allowed to rest.

If you know who this man was, know how and when the affair was conducted (e.g. at the workplace, or at parties), know that you exposed the affair to your families, including your kids, and to OM's wife, know that you moved away, that your wife changed job or you both did whatever was necessary to ensure verifiable no-contact, and worked on building a romantic, accountable, integrated marriage in which there was no room for secret trysts - on Facebook, in person or on the phone...

...if you've done all that, and rebuilt romantic love, then why would you ask your wife to do what she did during the affair? Why would that matter?

Maybe you are both ruining recovery. Maybe your wife has never shown you transparency, and you don't know she is not in contact with any other man. Maybe she goes on dates with her girlfriends. Maybe she has angry outbursts. Maybe she isn't doing much to rebuild romantic love, and is committing many love busters.

But if you are focusing and thinking about why she won't do sexual stuff with you, and you are asking her about it as recently as a year ago - years after the affair ended - then you are right there, ruining your own recovery.

Surely you can see that this is no way to live, and long past time to move on from the affair.


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I see we already explained all this to you.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane


If she enjoyed those things, she would do them with you, wouldn't she? Most people who are high on heroin, crack, alcohol or an affair, do creepy things they would never dream of doing while sober.



This is really all the advice you need. It's quite obvious that she doesn't enjoy the activities if she only did them during an affair. I'm sure you noticed how it changes the personality.

She is years out from the affair now, which means she is her own self again. Most importantly she trusts you enough to be candid about her real sexual preferences.

So it seems the best course of action is to thank her for trusting you and to live up to that trust.

Her speaking to you in this way IS a sign of closeness. Going through the motions to do a sexual act she feels she cant refuse you is not any kind of close.

Last edited by indiegirl; 03/11/18 12:45 PM.

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