SC, yes thank you. I understand she wouldn't know right away. That wasn't was I was implying. Just that I know, no matter what, she'll eventually be furious. I suspect even if she were to enter in therapy and then realize what I did was something beneficial she would still, most likely, hold that against me. Like it was a ploy to prepare to gang up on her.

I've had many a convo about my W's admittance to holding grudges, needing to keep everything a secret for sake of a false integrity etc. There are times things should remain internal to a family or set of individuals (the whole world doesn't need to know). I agree this isn't one of those times. I don't know that she would ever agree with that.

She's always said one of the biggies that causes her to lose her love for me is that she doesn't feel cared for. That I often put others before her. Meaning I share things with people (aka the MB Forum) that she doesn't want me sharing. This would be one of those situations where she would say fits into that category.

What does that mean? He's asked her to stop and she won't. The POJA states that she shouldn't have another drink since he's not enthusiastic, but she won't follow that.

MrA, the goal here is not to avoid her anger at all cost, but to save your marriage. You need to stop operating from a position of fear and cuckhood and focus on your marriage. Discuss her alcoholism with your children and then ask her to stop drinking. There is no need to talk it to death for years, just do it.

We can even help you with the right words, but you need to move this forward.

She has refused to quit, right?

You really need to stop being scared of your wife and her anger. Of course she will be angry, she is an addict. Addicts are always angry when the source of their addiction is threatened.

Stop being scared of her and start doing what needs to be done to RESCUE her.

She has refused, in the past, to quit drinking entirely. Right now the only thing she's stated she's willing to do is quit for a couple of months after the Holidays (If it means that much to me).

I'm totally aware this isn't acceptable.

Thanks Mel. I am definitely aware of where I need to focus and to stop letting fear stop me.

I will find some time to sit down with my youngest two and also call my oldest who's off to college.

The amount she consumes doesn't feel like a health and safety issue. Not yet. Maybe a 12 pack a week at most right now stretched over a 2 or 3 day period. If she's an alcoholic then eventually she will get there. It's a progressive disease right?

I need to do what needs to be done to salvage our M.

Me telling her she's an alcoholic isn't going to change her mind. She has to figure that out for herself.

I need her to quit drinking because I cannot live it. I am going to do what it takes to save our M. Hopefully she agrees to do her part.

Would you please post Dr. Harley's exact letter to you and yours to him? I know you posted his highlights, but I would like to see what he wrote you. I like to read how Dr. Harley writes his advice.

The amount has nothing to do with it. Some alcoholics are fine with smaller amounts, others with great amounts.

I get the sense you are still lost in the game of definitions.


That is the right approach. However, if she is not an alcoholic, she would just quit. That is what normal people do.

This is not something that is subject to the POJA, that was the point. Alcoholism is defined by an addiction, not by the amount one drinks. Some need massive amounts and others need small amounts.

Alcoholism is a health and safety issue, but that is beside the point.

love it!!! It is this brand of forthrightness that is necessary.

Sunnytimes, alcoholism is not "fair" to children or spouses. It is not fair that MrAlias has been robbed of his marriage due to alcohol. He has been cheated by alcohol. The kids are cheated by an alcoholic parent. Saying that an alcoholic is an alcoholic is very fair because it is true. I am an alcoholic. That is a true fact. My children have always known this.

She is very stubborn if she's being told she should do something. Her open claim to fame is that "If someone tells me what to do I normally dig in my heels and do the opposite".

So is it that she's an alcoholic or again just digging in her heels? Doesn't matter. I can't live with her inability to control the drinking.

I want to avoid any argument with her about whether or not she is an alcoholic. That's just an endless circle. She needs to figure this out. I highly doubt she'll find a therapist/doctor that would tell her she is fine to try to work a controlled drinking program. I'm hanging my hat on it. If she gets bad advice from them then it could possibly mean the end for us. Unless by some miracle she decides she wants to quit drinking for me. I don't see her doing that. The end result is something that is thoughtless behavior ... welcome to my world.

Here ya go BH.

To Dr Harley:

Hello Joyce and Dr Harley,

I need some help in resolving a problem in my marriage.

A little background. I've been an MB follower for a long time. I love the principles and believe in them entirely. Making them work in my marriage is another story. My wife and I are in our early 50s, been married 27 years and have three beautiful children ages 14 to 19.

A few years ago my wife and I did some counseling with your daughter Jennifer. We read HNHN, LBs and FILSIL. Worked the assignments assigned to us and seemed to make a bit of progress while in sessions with Dr Chalmers. We've had our good moments and bad over the years. We get along well, never really argue and certainly do not have angry outbursts of any kind. Probably just the opposite, we hold stuff in and let it fester. My wife says her mantra is it is what it is and you just suck it up. I believe what the good Dr states; complaints are good for a marriage if delivered respectfully. Mind you I believe in these tactics but sometimes struggle on delivery.

On to the current dilemma. After having counseling we didn't follow through to the letter and backslid. To add to the struggle maintaining a romantic relationship my wife is and always has been a heavy drinker. Over the years I've changed from being one myself to one who drinks only a little.

After several incidents where my wife drank too much and I felt embarrassed I decided it was time to approach her. She said she would change. She didn't. I became more withdrawn to the point where about a year ago I'd had enough and contemplated a separation. I told her something needed to change, that I felt she was an alcoholic and that I'd like her to quit drinking. She had done some reading and felt she was an alcohol abuser. I, with some doubts, agreed to support her in her efforts to control the drinking. She did quite well for a few months.

I'm sorry to say that things have taken a bit of a turn. Despite my wife's honest attempts to control her drinking, in the last couple of months, she has started to slide back into some her bad habits. Drinking more, drinking faster and more frequently. Nothing as bad as before but still enough where I feel triggered.

This week I told her I can't live like this anymore. That her drinking is ruining it for me, That I'm triggered every time I see her drink.

I've informed her that I see the only solution to resolve this would be for her to commit to stop drinking entirely. She feels she should just continue to try to control it. I've also asked that she seek a professional's help on the matter.

Outside of me communicating that to her, getting myself to Al-Anon, is there anything else I could be doing? Is it recommended to get others involved or, at least, communicate to some of the important ones that her drinking has become a problem?

Do I need to separate?

I'd love to hear your recommendation for next steps.


From Dr Harley:
The solution to problem drinking is to give it up entirely. As you've noticed, "controlled drinking" simply doesn't work. If she goes through a treatment program, make sure that they are known for their effort to keep marriages together. In my experience, many couples divorce after going through treatment because they tend to advocate rules that keep a person sober, but ruin marriages. Read my article "Why the Codependency Movement is Ruining Marriages." I would not separate, but you might want to consider an intervention that would involve your children.
Dr. Harley

It is not a matter of being "stubborn," it is a matter of being addicted. All alcoholics dig in their heels so she is no different. You don't have to argue with her about whether or not she is an alcoholic; she doesn't have to agree. But she does have to agree to stop drinking.

Just make sure that you and your family are not supporting her denial by avoiding use of the term alcoholic. You shouldn't enable her.

Maybe not, but not saying it isn't going to change her mind either. It only serves her DENIAL. You don't need to help her in her denial.

Thanks Mel,

I've been trying to find resources in my area that I could direct my W to.

There is a local chapter of AA in our hometown. It is the same building I went to when I went to Al-Anon meetings a few years ago. It is not a single sex AA facility but it is open to the public.

I don't see any way to contact them other than showing up.

Would you recommend I attend a meeting and ask for some support there?

AA usually has a hotline # in the phone book. I would call them and ask for a list of meetings in the area. Ask if they have any all female meetings and/or open meetings in the area. Ask also for the # of a female sponsor that your wife can contact if she agrees to join AA.

If you can't find a #, then yes, it would be a good idea to just go there and see if you can get some help.

Most AA people, while well meaning, don't really understand how damaging AA is to marriages so don't get discouraged if you hear objections to the all female meetings idea. Co-ed AA meetings are pick up joints.

Thanks again Mel.

Co-ed AA meetings are pick up joints.

In that case would it be a good or bad idea for me to go to these meetings with my wife? If they're open to the public.