Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#2892873 01/20/17 02:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
P
psydjsr Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
So here is the dilemma I face I believe masturbation has destroyed the sex life of my marriage. I am at the point I just don�t know what to do, I am resigned that it may never change and I simply plead to my God that I will learn to simply trust Him that he knows and that Jesus is better. How he is better I am still trying to understand. God created man with this biological/hormonal cycle that is tied to sexual release. And for some crazy reason it is tied into our emotional needs. Why I have yet to figure this out. It just is. I am clinically train and use many of HNHN in my practice. So here is the problem. And I think I stumbled on some understanding last night. I have over the course of the last 15 yearrs attempted to become the man that God has created me to be. I was never taught by my father how to meet the emotional needs of my wife and so I have actively worked to do that. I have learned how to speak and meet her needs for affection, I have turned down job opportunities in order to meet her emotional needs, I love my wife. I desire to be with her and I do not want to have any other. She is a gifted woman and loves God. She however has more intrest in serving the church than in serving her family and her husband. And I think it is a problem with balancing ministry and family. She spends out more of her energy on ministry and often has little or nothing to give her family and husband. �I cannot not number the times I have her make the statement �I have nothing left to give� and it is often the family and I who are left out in the cold.
I could live with out all of the other areas of emotional input if She was able to give me the physical intimacy I need. Now this is not to say we do not have sex. We do. When she wants. The other aspect of our sex life is she never touches me, it is always about her. She has told me the masturbation is easier that sex takes to much work. She often rejects my advances and I never push it as I want her to enjoy the sex we do have. She often has multiple orgasms when we have sex, but again she will never touch me. She allows me to touch her when we do have sex but doesn�t ever initiate, or even touch me while we have sex. So even when we have sex it is often unfulfilling for me because I feel as if she has gotten what she needs from the event. I have replaced the masturbation for her.
So I am at the point where I am so emotionally done. I am left with this I am called to be holy not happy�I am called to give and give, I am learning what it means to pour out myself and never receive, but its so hard to die to self.
So I have tried to talk with her about this, it is a big part of what I do right help people with their marriage, and I am good at it. I mean I have a success rate of like 90 percent of couples who see me stay together and thrive. If you asked her she would say we have a great marriage and she tells me all the time how blessed she is to have me as her husband. She tells me she loves me, but this one area is like off limits.
I am done and yet I cannot be, because of my position, because I have 5 children who need to know how to be followers of Jesus, and 4 boys who need to learn how to be godly me and to raise godly families� and so I am left to suffer maybe this is just the cross I must carry
I am sure there are many details I left out but I am sure i ca answer I guess just prayer for wisdom

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Hello psydjsr, welcome to Marriage Builders. I have read this 3 times and still unclear about WHO is masturbating. Can you clarify?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
P
psydjsr Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Okay so let me try to clarify. My wife until just a year or two ago masturbated from a young age. She also has hinted at the fact that her thought life in this area isn�t good. She says in order to have an orgasm she has to go to dark places in her mind.�She has never really clarified this other than some things said in passing or in conversations, she once mention rape fantasy,� She has made the statement that her masturbation has affected our sex life. When ever our sex has been more than me doing her, I mean she is engaged in any way,(again she will not even touch me, not even in non erogenous zones while we are having sex) she does hug and kiss and such when not having sex, just general affection kinda stuff. she says she feels like a whore. So again she does not like sex because it is to much work, that masturbation is easier. Now she has said she no longer does. But it has still destroyed our sex life.
So it brings us to where we are today. And My sex drive is much higher than hers. We have sex usually once a week, sometimes it is every other week, occasionally if i push it we have it twice in a week. However it is only when she wants it and so I find myself now masturbating, I try not to lust after other women and I think only of past sexual events we have had, I do not project or think if it was like this. There have been a few times when I felt she was engaged, however those again are the times she says she felt like a whore. Pretty much if it involves touching me. When we have sex it is often unfulfilling because there have only been like a half dozen times where our sex involved her pleasuring and being engaged in pleasuring. I do not like to masturbate and I try not to do it, as it is not what I desire. I desire to be with my wife.
Again whenever I have tried to share this deep need and this deep hurt with her, she always rejects, shuts down, blames me, says I just want to much sex, etc etc.

Really this all is just a way for me to vent this out there as I have no one to talk to about this because of the position I have. And just to ask for prayer and wisdom...

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
A couple of things really stand here. First off, in order to desire sex a woman must a) feel an emotional attachment to the man and b) have the prospect of enjoyment. What typically happens is the wife falls out of love and when that happens, she no longer desires sex with him. It is rather appalling to have sex with someone with whom you are not in love. I am sure she "loves" you with a caring love, but I seriously doubt she feels romantic love. <-----that is the problem.

The next important point I want to make is that it takes 15 hours per week of undivided attention to maintain romantic love and 20+ to create. Those should be on 4 - 4 hour dates meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. If you aren't doing that, then this program not only doesn't work, but you can't possibly sustain the romantic love in your marriage.

if you could sell her on this program by showing how she could benefit, you could have a great marriage. Dr. Harley says that in 99% of the cases if he resolves the marriage problems, the sexual problems resolve themselves. If you can't sell her on that, I would strongly suggest enlisting Dr Harley at his radio show [it is free] to see if he can help persuade her to create a great marriage.

I would start here: The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by psydjsr
Again whenever I have tried to share this deep need and this deep hurt with her, she always rejects, shuts down, blames me, says I just want to much sex, etc etc.

It probably makes her feel guilty, because she doesn't desire sex with you. The more she has sex under those conditions, the more averse she becomes. The solution is to create desire.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
P
psydjsr Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
Okay I will try one more time to clarify as I am not sure that you are understanding. 1. I am marriage counselor who uses this material hense PsyD. So I understand how this program works. I am sure she still feels romantic love, I date her every week. And she does say she likes the sex we have and has said...that was good, I needed that, she has multiple orgasms when we have sex. When it comes to the 4x4 she would tell you it is excellent. She tells me she loves me.
Again I am not sure this is about creating desire becuase she is getting enough to meet her needs. Her emotional needs are being met. She will even admit this is true. I was hoping maybe to hear from someone who has had a little more exsperince with that aspect relating to how masterbation and such would affect a woman. Who is having her needs met.

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
I is not easy to understand what you are saying. Is it that your wife would rather masturbate than have sex with you? That her masturbation has adversely affected your sex life?

As a therapist, I'm sure you know the solution is for her to stop. Her fantasies are creating a terrible contrast effect with you.

This is what Dr Harley wrote to the wife whose sex life was ruined by her husband's masturbation:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
I have consistently opposed masturbation in marriage because, as you've noticed, it can make a fulfilling sexual relationship much more difficult to achieve. Your husband's experience helps prove my point. When pornography is used, images of physical perfection become the norm and a spouse's body is unfairly compared. But even without pornography, the fantasies and techniques used when masturbating can make a marital sexual experience seem like a lot of work and humdrum in comparison. And it can be so enjoyable that can often become addictive. From the sound of it, your husband's habit of masturbation is probably an addiction, and getting rid of it may be quite a challenge.

One of the best ways to overcome an addiction is to be completely transparent and accountable. Ask him where he masturbates, and how he goes about doing it. Whenever he is overcome by temptation, he should tell you how it happened. I know that it offends you terribly, and your reaction may turn out to be similar to the one you'd have if he were unfaithful, but you are in the very best position to help him overcome this bad habit.

I would also encourage you to make love to each other at least three times each week. It will not only meet your emotional need for sexual fulfillment, but it will also make masturbating less tempting for him. If your husband can eliminate masturbating entirely, he may find himself much more willing and able to make love to you.

But there may be more to the story. Is something going on when you make love that makes the experience more work for him than necessary. Are you lovemaking techniques good for you but bad for him? Apparently you have already discussed these barriers with each other, and have tried to eliminate them. But now that you have discovered that your husband had been dishonest with you about masturbation, you may also discover that he has been dishonest with you about these other issues as well.

Your goal is to have a healthy and fulfilling sexual relationship, and your new insight may help you achieve that objective once and for all.
In a nutshell: she needs to stop masturbating altogether, and she needs to tell you what she needs to make having sex with you enjoyable for her.



BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
Quote
I date her every week
How many hours? Doing what?


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
Originally Posted by psydjsr
I do not like to masturbate and I try not to do it, as it is not what I desire. I desire to be with my wife.
You need to stop it as well.


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
I don't think you understand. Emotional needs, in the context of marriage, is a need, that when met, creates romantic love. It is not a "need" like air or water. Obviously, masturbation does not create romantic love because it is done alone.

Quote
When it comes to the 4x4 she would tell you it is excellent.

So what did you do on your dates this week? How many hours? Where did you go?

Quote
I was hoping maybe to hear from someone who has had a little more exsperince with that aspect relating to how masterbation and such would affect a woman. Who is having her needs met.

What you will hear from Dr Harley is that you should stop masturbating and get sexual satisfaction from each other exclusively.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,527
Likes: 9
Originally Posted by psydjsr
I am sure she still feels romantic love, I date her every week. And she does say she likes the sex we have and has said...that was good, I needed that, she has multiple orgasms when we have sex. When it comes to the 4x4 she would tell you it is excellent. She tells me she loves me.
Again I am not sure this is about creating desire becuase she is getting enough to meet her needs. Her emotional needs are being met. She will even admit this is true.
If sex is excellent, then what is the problem? I am having trouble understanding the issue. If she has multiple orgasms when you have sex, and she says that she "needed that", in what way is your sex life inadequate?


BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
Do you watch porn?


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Everything you describe reflects a wife who has fallen out of love. She is not interested in affection or sex with you and clearly has no desire. When a woman is in love she wants all of those things. I am unsure what makes you think she is in love?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,433
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,433
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by psydjsr
I am sure she still feels romantic love, I date her every week. And she does say she likes the sex we have and has said...that was good, I needed that, she has multiple orgasms when we have sex. When it comes to the 4x4 she would tell you it is excellent. She tells me she loves me.
Again I am not sure this is about creating desire becuase she is getting enough to meet her needs. Her emotional needs are being met. She will even admit this is true.
If sex is excellent, then what is the problem? I am having trouble understanding the issue. If she has multiple orgasms when you have sex, and she says that she "needed that", in what way is your sex life inadequate?
Nobody knows how another person feels, and to claim so is disrespectful. The way your wife acts indicates that she is not feeling romantic love. You need to do those things that create romantic love. But if you don't want to face that reality, you can continue as you are and stand by your position. Then, of course, nothing will change.


me-65
wife-61
married for 40 years
DS - 38, autistic, lives at home
DD - 37, married and on her own
DS - 32, still living with us
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
P
psydjsr Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
okay to answer some of the questions.

how often/ time spent we spend on average 15-20 hours in each others company, more if you count family/ church time. we have at least 1 3-4 hour date outside the home each week.

Porn- No

If the sex is great what is the problem- The sex is great for her. As stated by her.

Again I believe that the problem is not unmet emotional needs on her part. As she has stated that her emotional needs are met. (I am not assuming, I make those claims based on her words.)
She states she is lucky to have me as her husband, she loves me, she is glad I am her husband, she says she knows all of her friends wish that their husband were as loving, engaged, etc as I am.

And maybe I need to restate the issue or where I am looking for insight and offer a few more details.

She suffers from hyperthyroidism, and can often be up and down emotionally, (yes there is a medical plan in place, but it often doesn't work) She complains of fatigue all the time.

the problem with the sex is that while she likes the sex(as stated by her) she doesn't touch me, doesn't initiate sex by touching me, she will come to bed naked indicating we are having sex that night, but I feel as described by many women (with men who have sexual addictions etc)that the sex is all about her, her pleasure, etc she doesn't like me to see her change or naked and does and has struggle with her weight and issues of self image.

She has stated that her masturbation from earlier in life has ruined our sex life. I am going to have another attempt at conversation tonight about this to lend clarity from her to me about what is going on..


Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 65
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 65
From what you described, my feeling that sex for your wife is just a chore and she gives you her body for sex to put a tick in her to do list.

Did you ask her why she doesn't want to touch you?

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
Originally Posted by psydjsr
okay to answer some of the questions.

how often/ time spent we spend on average 15-20 hours in each others company, more if you count family/ church time. we have at least 1 3-4 hour date outside the home each week.
What are you doing in those 15-20 hours?
The time with family/church doesn't count.
What do you do on your 1 date?

Quote
Porn- No
Have you ever, in the past?

Quote
the problem with the sex is that while she likes the sex(as stated by her) she doesn't touch me, doesn't initiate sex by touching me, she will come to bed naked indicating we are having sex that night,
I believe that would make my husband's day.

The problem is she doesn't want to have sex the way you want to have sex?

Quote
She has stated that her masturbation from earlier in life has ruined our sex life.

If she is happy with sex, why would she say it is ruined?


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
P
psydjsr Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
P
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 5
The 15-20 hours can be spent many ways, some times it is just sitting talking, other times it is us working together on a project that she or I are engaged in at any given time, about every three months we will get away for a day or two sometimes I surprise her other times she will surprise me, for instance for her birthday I surprised her by taking her to an expensive hotel where I had prepared a spa night for her. I created all the creams, masks, wraps, etc. she soaked in a hot tub, along with a Full massage and dinner via Room service. all with the fireplace going and the view over the lake from the penthouse room. so I attempt to create atmosphere for her and I that says I love you. I know her love language and attempt to speak it to her multiply times a day, Our weekly date is usually us going to a restaurant or spending time together talking. we don't have smart phones and sport on tv really don't interest me, so when we are out we do have actual conversations.

Did I ever look at Porn. Yes, I have seen pornography in my life. However it has never been a habit of my life, and I do not seek it out, We do not have TV connection or cable in our home as I do not want one of our children to stumble across it. Our internet has filters, and are only used in common areas.

It is not so much that she doesn't want to have sex ever. It is just the fact that she will not touch me. Again she feels like the sex is good. She has said so. Does she have sex the way I would like? No. I am not sure I can explain it very well. I mean after we have had sex she will kiss me, she will say she loves me. But I feel like I am just there to bring her pleasure, to that my pleasure is just a side product of getting her off. I mean I do enjoy pleasuring her I do like sex with her, I just wish she was more engaged in it.

I think she might feel that way because she told me one time masturbation is easier and sex takes to much work. She has also told me in the past that sometimes in order to have orgasm she has to go to "dark places" in her mind. She admitted to a rape fantasy about 10 years ago. Again I don't think it is so much about her emotional needs being met, but if because of her past masturbation and fantasy she trained her mind to get off in a certain way, much like the guy who uses porn. So because she is trying to not go to "dark places" in her mind, she avoids sex. Also at work is the fatigue and she doesn't feel like she "has anything left to give"
So again I really think there are deeper things at work her and its not about me admitting that there is not romantic love, etc. There is something else going on with her that I am trying to figure out.
So again as I am attempting to process and put together why would she not want to touch me, or be more engaged or active in our sex life, why would she make a comment like masturbation ruined our sex life. I am going to try to have a conversation with her about this tonight, to see if I can get clarification form her. After that maybe it will be more clear.




Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by psydjsr
The 15-20 hours can be spent many ways, some times it is just sitting talking, other times it is us working together on a project that she or I are engaged in at any given time,

Is all of this time done outside of the home - with no children or family around - meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment? It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you just happen to be around each other at home in your home setting.

The big miss is that if you aren't getting 15 hours per week of UA time, then your wife won't be in love with you, the key ingredient in desire. Not even Dr Harley and Joyce spend their UA time at home because the quality is lousy. And don't you have children?

Are you familiar with the policy of undivided attention?

Originally Posted by psydjsr
Again I don't think it is so much about her emotional needs being met, but if because of her past masturbation and fantasy she trained her mind to get off in a certain way, much like the guy who uses porn. So because she is trying to not go to "dark places" in her mind, she avoids sex. Also at work is the fatigue and she doesn't feel like she "has anything left to give"
So again I really think there are deeper things at work her and its not about me admitting that there is not romantic love, etc. There is something else going on with her that I am trying to figure out.

First off, you don't spend enough time together to effectively meet her emotional needs. And secondly, her masturbation, and associated fantasies, creates a contrast effect that has you failing in comparison. The solution is to stop the masturbation and have you meet her SF needs exclusively and to spend enough UA time to create passion and romance.

I would emphasize that Dr Harley says his program does not work without the policy of UA. As someone who has been through his program and has a romantic marriage, I will attest to this.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362
Likes: 3
1. Get out of the house for 4, 4 hour dates a week.
2. If she has stopped masturbating, then don't discuss it anymore.
3. You may request that she have sex with you the way you want, but don't demand it. If she doesn't want to do what you are wanting her to do, drop it. She must have sex with you in a way that SHE enjoys, or you risk a sexual aversion.


Markos' Wife
FWW - EA
8 kids ...
What to do with an Angry Husband

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,116 guests, and 67 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5