But it is what you said. You said it here:

The "maturely" statement implies "grow up". The "am I expected to stay away?" rhetorical question and the "does W bear any responsibility in making the best of a situation?" rhetorical question imply "suck it up".

So is it because it is "stress" that is the problem Markos? If you asked your wife to get medical attention for a sore on her arm or a bad lung infrection would she feel disrespected. When W tells me to take my medication should I feel disrespected? I'm asking here to learn not to be unaccepting of your reply

Sugarcane can you suggest a better way to phrase those statements so there is no disrespect because there certainally was none intended

It's not just a question of rephrasing the statements so that you can say the same things. The point is that, with some things, you should not be taking your approach at all.

The "maturely" statement: using that term implies that you think your wife is being immature. Instead, you both need to be able to discuss issues without DJs, SDs or AOs.

The "am I expected to stay away...? question:

You are expected to use POJA in all your decision-making. You are expected to respect your wife's point of view, and accept her word on how she sees things. If she tells you (and I expect she has told you for years) that you mother is rude, in one way or another, to her, you need to accept her point of view and take it seriously. If she tells you that because of her rudeness she does not like being around your mother, you need to ask what she would like to do; is there a way she could feel comfortable in your mother's presence? If there isn't, then you don't ask her to be in your mother's presence. If you had done this years ago, your mother might have seen the need to treat your wife with respect, the way the mother of her grandchildren deserves to be treated.

Your response when she posted here was more or less to call her a liar. You implied that there was no truth in her point of view. How very insulting that was. If that's how you've been responding to your wife's complaints about being with your mother for several years, you have made things horrible for your wife, and terrible for your marriage. Had you been on your wife's side, you would not be in this hole where she dreads going within 100 yards of your mother, and you fight about the issue.

You should have accepted your wife's view that your mother was rude to her (whatever that meant), and you should not have taken your wife into your mother's presence unless your mother was prepared to treat her with respect. If she wasn't prepared to do that, you should have stopped visiting your mother until she WAS prepared to treat your wife with total respect.

Additionally, POJA means that if you cannot agree on a course of action about which you are both enthusiastic, you DO NOTHING until the issue is resolved to the satisfaction of both. That means that you should have not have been in your mother's presence that weekend unless your wife was enthusiastic about being there.

If you had put the care and protection of your wife at the top of your agenda all these years, you would not have created a resentful wife who has been forced to make sacrifices for you, and who now hates doing so (over some things, at least). If you had been enthusiastic about POJA since you discovered MB, you would never have asked her to "make the best of a situation". If you had put her first above your mother and children, you would have been rewarded with her feelings of love for you.

So, it's not just about rephrasing what you want to say, but without DJs. When it comes to decision-making, it is about using POJA, even if you have to do your negotiations by email. It is about only taking a course of action about which you are both enthusiastic, and if you cannot find that course of action, doing nothing while you continue to brainstorm, even if that means missing the event.

The analogy would be that you have hit her on the arm and caused the sore, or forced her in some way to get a bad lung infection, and then begged her to seek medical attention to deal with the resultant illness. Of course she now needs treatment for the illness, but what she really needed in the first place was for you to have never caused the sore, or the lung infection, in the first place.

You are causing the stress in the way you deal with her opinions and her complaints. If she has told you about your rude mother, and you have brushed her off and told her first, to deal with it, and second, that it's not a big deal and that your mother isn't really rude, you have caused the stress in the first place - and I suspect that this has been going on for years. You should always have listened to her perspective and accepted it, and not tried to either change it or force her to do something about which she is unhappy. If you had done those things, she wouldn't, today, have these stress reactions to those situations.

It seems as if you have been belittling her perspective and rejecting her complaints, and telling her to just get on with things, for years, and then, as things got worse, you have pretty much told her that she is mentally ill and needs a doctor.

That is so cruel, to have caused the pain and then said that, that it takes my breath away.

We are asking you to stop causing the stress. Lets say you hit your wife in the face and she SCREAMS. Is the solution to stop hitting her or would it be to send her to a doctor to get help for her screaming problem?

Stop causing her stress.

Are you the self appointed arbiter of maturity? here

Do you?

There's no "should" about it. Either you feel that way, or you don't. And it has nothing to do with whether or not your wife feels disrespected.

Telling your wife that she should get help makes her feel disrespected. It just does. And you will need to change the way you talk and interact with her to avoid making her feel such disrespect again.

Absolutely she would feel disrespected. My wife is a grown woman and doesn't want me to talk to her like I talk to my children or to tell her what to do. She doesn't want to be enlightened with my superior perspective.

Here's a broadcast where Dr. Harley and Joyce discuss this subject - I encourage you and your wife to listen to it together and then discuss how she feels about it and pick a way to handle the situation that your wife feels enthusiastic about:

http://marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=09493

Firstly, thank you all for your input here. It is very helpful in teaching me I was using the wrong words and wrong approach in communicating with W. When I said mature, I meant without AO, DJ etc. I fully understand what she heard was disrespectful on my part. I have much more to learn. We move forward!

When determining if something you said was disrespectful, what you meant isn't relevant.

It's not that what she heard was disrespectful - it's that what you said was disrespectful. Almost anyone would feel disrespected if you start bringing words like "mature" into it. "Mature" is a value judgment about character. Don't include negative value judgments in the things you say to your wife, because such value judgments are disrespectful.

Listen to the radio clips in here.
Anger Management 101

If I understand this correctly, there are various issues that when they arise, cause your wife to become distressed. The way your mother has treated you wife is one of those issues. Your wife now becomes very distressed at the thought of being in the presence of your mother.

Rather than care for your wife, which would have meant NOT asking her to tolerate a situation that distresses her, it seems that you respond to her distress by telling her to see a doctor.

I can see from your wife's post that she was so distressed that she could no longer consider going to work, and she could not speak to her boss coherently.

Why do you continue to ask your wife to be in your mother's presence when the very thought of doing this causes her to break down?

Where do I start? The reason she couldn't speak coherently to her boss is that I broke every MB rule in the book on Tues. am, 20 minutes before it was time for us to go to work. We both work at the same place. The MIL issue started Saturday. It was POJAed and resolved to, I'm pretty sure, to both our acceptance. The DJs and AOs continued on both parts, but to be fair,and she may disagree, I tried much harder than she did, to move away from. Anyway they didn't stop. I think we both would agree that the rest of the evening's problems were not about MIL but probably more about who was love busting who and we both just kept doing it. Sunday and Monday were excruciatingly terrible for both of us . By Sunday night I made up my mind that I was leaving until she agreed to counseling other than this site. By Monday morning I decided not to because of my unconditional love for her. My like for her was at an all time low. By 4:00 Tuesday, I was again sure I would be gone by the end of the day for both our sakes if we didn't talk and at least start the path to resolving our issues. The unconditional love was not and is not gone. I asked her how she felt about phoning in sick and staying home to try to move forward. She said something like "but we have to drive"(we car pool) I said "but honey, our marriage is much more important than work or car pool or anything else. She wouldn't agree to stay home so I said POJA and I don't want us to go to work. The ensuing half hour was not good. That's when she talked to her boss. I know it was cruel but I also knew it would be more cruel not to force us to talk. She was scared and didn't feel safe. I guarenteed I would do whatever it took to make her feel safe. We did talk and spent most of the day on this site. Thank you all for being there. This morning was not very pleasant due to love busters from her but we did wish each other a good day as we parted at work. I emailed her later to thank her for the way we parted. I will try to address your comments and suggestions in future posts. Sorry for the length of this. If you got to this point I thank you for your patience!

I believe we are both now aware (she before me) that love busters are the real problem here. MIL may be the issue, but how we addressed the issue is the real problem. I am guilty of wanting to resolve the issue without being careful not to love bust W.

The ensuing half hour was not good because you were trying to force your will on her. That is abusive and completely antithetical to the POJA. And to add insult to injury you lectured her about what was or wasn't important like she was a dumb child. What you describe here is very alarming.

Another concern is that she is being forced to be around your mother, which stresses her immensely. The solution to avoid your mother for now until this situation changes. I can tell your wife is in the habit of making reluctant agreements probably after being badgered and lectured like a child. That is a very abusive tactic on your part.

POJA doesnt mean you get to keep her in a conversation that has become unpleasant. As soon as the it is unpleasant, the conversation ends.

If you're going to actually use this system properly, you need to actually use POJA correctly. POJA is a not club but a shield. You need to commit to protecting your wife from decisions that would hurt her. I have yet to see you offer to "do nothing" regarding your church, budget, or mother until you have your wife's enthusiatic agreement. Unless you agree to do nothing until a mutually enthusiastic agreement is reached, you are not doing POJA.

The issue With you mother was not resolved be cause your wife did not enthusiastically agree.

W just came and asked what I meant in my email to her when I thanked her for the way we parted this morning because I added "it was probably more than I deserved" I replied that I said that because I had hurt her so badly. She then asked what I thought of what I was reading here. I replied quickly that I thought it was all good stuff. She said you guys were saying what she was trying to say for years. She wanted to know why I think it's good coming from you guys and not from her. I replied that I think in part it is from independent third parties and there are no love busters involved. She said 'they can't love bust us" I said I know. She walked off saying she hoped for more...............not sure what she means