I need to start by saying I am with her and for her and love her very much. I fully agree that we have struggled with communications a lot in our married life. This has not been a Merry Christmas nor a Happy New Year so far for either of us. I am very guilty of saying "I feel the same way" because I do. I know that she is hurting and a lot of my hurt is that she is hurting. I really don't know how to help her when I am hurting so much too. I keep saying "let's work together to help each other stop hurting" In fairness to her, she doesn't hear me because of her hurts and I get frustrated because I can't seem to get her to hear what I'm actually saying. I'm really glad that we are talking to someone else because I have thought for some time now that our problems are bigger than the two of us and we are unable to really help each other when we are both so hurt. She thought I would be angry when she told me that she was posting here. I was apprehensive a bit at first because I wasn't sure what she was saying on here. She told me at around 2 this pm about posting. By the time I got home from work shortly after 4 I was happy that she started posting even though I didn't know what she said in the posts. Just the fact that she reached out, gave me great hope! I read all the posts and was not surprised by anything she said. I have a different prespective on some of the things she said. I have always had trouble expressing myself in a way that she doesn't "feel judged" or "not valued". My problem is I haven't had the ability to say things in a way that she hear what I intend. She hears belittling when I have no intention of being belittling. Don't get me wrong, I have said many belittling things to her along with many other hurtful things in the midst of a disagreement. Many times when I say I'm sorry (with no "buts" after the apology) she won't accept it, saying I'm just trying to get out of it and I am not sorry at all. This bothers me a lot because I know I'm wrong a lot and am mostly - at least sometimes- willing to admit it. When Sugercane asked "why are you both stressed, given you are so close to retirement?" I ask the same question. Maybe after years of children, foster children, running a farm that we had to give up, being defrauded in another business venture, and going through bankruptcy along with our marital issues and issues regarding faith, as well as the fact I am an alcoholic - I quit drinking 3 weeks before our wedding but had several slips over the next 7 years and then none until 7 years ago when I drank 1 beer - maybe we are not used to having no external stresses and now are being affected by things that may have been overshadowed in the past. I think our present issues were always there somewhat and maybe are surfacing more now. All I want is your advise on how to bring out the best in each of us. Sorry for going on - that's another problem I have. I can tend go on. I will address some of the other things in future posts. Thank you so much for listening.

Welcome to MB, and thank you for signing up. The fact that you did so is a very good sign that you care about what is going wrong in your marriage, and you are willing to work to make it better.

Your wife raised a few issues, but the ones that stood out for me are about your attitude to church attendance and church activities, and your attitude to "your money" in general. I'm sure you read my reply to your wife about these issues.

What do you know about the Policy of joint Agreement? How do you think you could use it in decisions about money and church activities?

I will address my prespective on both these matters in the next two days. I am aware of the POJA and hope to use it in both these areas.

.I said I would address my prespective on ''church'' and ''money''. First on church. To me it is not ''church''. It is faith in God and how I express it. I was born and baptized a Catholic. My parents live practice their faith and taught it to us much better than I have. On the issue of attending Mass on Sundays, one of the commandments of the Catholic Church is to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation - these include Christmas and New Years. As a Catholic, I very seldom go to Mass on Sunday because I am obliged to although my church teaches that it is a serious sin to miss Mass through my own fault. I must say I noticed quite a number of disrespectful judgments in the responses to Barigirl's posts. You were telling her how I felt, what I was thinking, what I was willing or not willing to do. I think that should be for me to do. For me to not follow the commandments of my church and call myself a Catholic is like people here not following POJA but saying they are following the principals of MB. I have not asked my wife to join me at Mass due to our history on that subject. I need to go to ask God's forgiveness for my failings and to get the graces He offers through Mass and Communion in order to have the strength to try to follow Him for the following week. I admit, I do a poor job of that a lot of the time. Yes I am very lonely in the fact my wife does not share my faith with me. I did ask her within the last two weeks to hold hands with me and say the following prayer with me on a daily basis as I see it as containing all the main principals of MB. It was given to us 38 years ago at the end of our marriage preparation course.
It goes: We thank You, Oh God, for the love You have implanted in our hearts. May it always inspire us to be kind in our words, considerate of feelings, and concerned for each other's needs and wishes. Help us to be understanding and forgiving of human weaknesses and failings. Increase our faith and trust in You and may Your prudence guide our life and love. Bless our Marriage Oh God with peace and happiness and make our love fruitful for Your Glory and our joy both here and in eternity, Amen.
To me it pretty well sums up all the principals of MB. She is not at the place to do that and I accept that. Maybe I should have asked her years ago. We did say it together for quite a while in the early years but it fell by the wayside. I started saying it again about 3 months ago. Yes my faith is very important to me. Growing up my mother had a picture in the bathroom that said JOY, Jesus, Others, Yourself. I saw that many, many times over the years. It had influenced me a lot.
I keep my "church" activities to almost the bare minimum out of respect for my wife's feelings about it. I was asked on several occasions to join the Knights of Columbus but declined, not because I wanted to but to respect my wife's wishes. I used to read at Mass and serve Communion. I no longer do that. There are many other ways I might be involved in my church and in parish life but I choose not to and tell the people when I am asked that my marriage must come ahead of all but the bare necessities of my faith. One thing I do do is take my Mom and Dad to Mass most Sundays. I feel very privileged and honored to do that as I watch them at 90 and 96 going hand in hand to honor God. I recognize that going to Mass when my wife doesn't enthusiastically agree is independent behavior. Hopefully we can POJA that but in the same way that there is not a whole lot of wiggle room in using the POJA, I feel there is not a whole lot of wiggle room for me not to be able to attend Mass on Sunday. It may be a few days before I address money.

I think what you re saying is that there are some things concerning your religion that you are going to go ahead and do, regardless how those acts make your wife feel. Would you agree with that assessment?

I think that this is the heart of your marital problem.

POJA gives you the solution to the unhappy and unfulfilled aspects of your marriage that each of you has talked about. POJA ensures that you never do anything that your wife is not enthusiastic about (and vice versa). If you do not do things that make her unhappy, she won't be unhappy.

What you've just told me is that you will not abide by that principle; so what now? How do you intend to rescue your marriage?

Here's a show on POJA.
Radio Clip on POJA
Segment #2

I apologise for the DJs. It would be good if you could tell us how you feel, and so on.

In your account today, I saw some areas in which you are not willing to take your wife's feelings into account, and these are areas that are making your wife unhappy.

I believe POJA will work as well as we are willing to work it and I'm willing to work it. I do have much to learn.

Did you listen to these?

Barigirl and I listened. Makes sense

I feel very disrespectfully judged and represented in the above post. The situation is also poorly stated. I really hope W clarifies this situation. I really don't know how many more selfish demands, disrespectful judgements,angry outbursts etc. our marriage can take. I truly love her but l feel I need to at least totally withdraw as much as it hurts. I would also appreciate if responders asked for more information before assuming I am being demanding and disrespectful.

I recognize and accept her feelings. However it doesn't negate my feelings and it doesn't remove the situation. I feel we need to be able to deal with situations maturely as they arise. We went to our son's house. My parents, 95 and 90 were there for about an hour. Enjoyed seeing their grand children and great grandchildren. Absolutely, nothing said to offend anyone. Mother was not critical, demanding, or controlling. I really don't know what else to do. There will be family situations in the future. How do I handle them? Am I expected to stay away from our son's home when he invited his six siblings an their families and W and I and his grandparents. Does W bear any responsibility in making the best of a situation?

That is a disrespectful judgement.

If your wife doesn't like to be around your mother for whatever reason, you shouldn't see your mother until you can negotiate a solution.

However, if you are demanding or disrespectful, negotiation cannot happen.

The default of POJA when you do not agree is to do nothing. That means not seeing your parents. If you want to change that, you will need to respect your wife's perspective and take it into account.

BG,

When Dr. Harley sees a couple he doesn't counsel them in the same room because fights tend to happen, and that makes the marriage worse.

In the same way, when a husband and wife both post here on the forum, we usually ask that they post on separate threads so we can avoid those fights. That's what was asked of me and my wife when we first came here, and I'm passing it along to you.

As far as disrespectful judgments, most men who show up here couldn't tell a disrespectful judgment from a hole in the ground. I certainly couldn't when I first came here. I thought I was following this problem perfectly and my wife just mysteriously didn't respond and hated me.

The truth was I was a disrespectful jerk and needed a lot of training to learn to recognize and eliminate disrespectful judgments.

The same is true of you. You went on to call your wife immature. That's really disrespectful. Please start keeping a written record of the times you learn you are disrespectful to your wife so you can start to learn to recognize and eliminate this.

We don't need to ask for more evidence - unless your wife is completely lying about what happened, she is describing you being disrespectful. So add that to your list, too. Telling your wife how to feel or what she should do is disrespectful. Anytime you express yourself with the word "should" you are being disrespectful.

Nobody should put up with that in marriage. If you want your wife to feel love for you you are going to have to do the same thing I did: learn what you are doing that hurts her and learn how to stop it. Being defensive isn't going to help that process at all (trust me; I learned the hard way).

Thank you. Sorry about not responding sooner. I was unaware about posting on her thread. Had the posts moved to here. We talked this morning about the love busters and how we use them too much. We also are recognizing that situations are not the problem so much as how we deal with the situations i.e. Love busting. Where do I go from here? I have situations that I feel need to be addressed. She suggested that I post the situations here rather than her and I trying to address them. Is that a good idea? I think it is. Do you agree?

Situation: my posture is a love buster to W. The way I walk, sit, (slouch) stand (hunched shoulders) etc. is a love buster for her. She says I am lazy and don't care that she feels this way. My genetics are not great in this area. I admit I don't work on my posture enough. I do try to stand tall and sit up straight for her but fail more than I succeed. It is a real love buster for me when I am standing in my best (to me) posture and she comes up to me and corrects the way I am standing. All my family lock their knees when they stand and most have varying degrees of humped shoulders. I am admitedly one of the worst. I love bust her by my posture and she love busts me when she points out that my posture is bad. What do we do?

If there are situations/issues I need help with from you guys and I feel discussing them with her is unsafe, is there a place I can do this because I don't want to hurt her?

You need to learn to NEVER engage in the abusive love busters of demands, disrespect, and angry outbursts. They should never happen. It's not that they happen "too much." If they happen even once a year, that is too often.

What you can do is post to the forum for guidance on how to address a situation, but be respectful in how you post. Don't use the forum to vent about your wife, or as a chance to disrespect her.

In other words, practice talking about the situation respectfully, and invite people to point out to you when you have failed.

Fully agree, any is too many, thanks. We are progressing, slowly, but progressing! Will await any insights on other issued raised

Do you have a medical reason for the hump shoulders? (i.e. scoliosis ...). If not, then this is a habit you can change. You will need to practice over and over until it is second nature to you to stand straight and tall.

Is this the complaint that is most important to her? Above everything else? You should find that out. Work on the top 3 complaints, because that is where you will get the most benefit from your effort.

I have told your wife, and now I am telling you, that since the two of you have a history of lovebusting, you should stick to the forms to make your complaints. Don't complain to each other face to face right now. Write down the complaints you have, and spend time editing them to remove emotion and any value judgements. Exchange your forms once a week, and spend the rest of your time in enjoyable conversation.

I'd like to unpick why you find this a love buster.

Is it that your wife uses words that you find insulting? For example, when she tries to get you to change your posture, does she say that you are lazy? Criticising you by using words like that would be wrong.

Is it that you find complaints in themselves love busters? If you wife says something like "give me some eye candy!" - an attempt to complain pleasantly, would you still find the complaint to be a love buster?

Do you find all complaints to be love busters? If so, why? Do you feel that your wife should be more accepting of you as you are?

Eye candy is definitely the most acceptable. She's not sure posture is in the top 3. I appreciate kind comments from her. That being said, the same comment can be helpful or hurtful, depending on how I'm feeling at the time.

Could you try and answer the specific questions I asked? I'm trying to find out whether you object to complaints per se. Are you willing to work on whatever complaints your wife makes? (Not when she complains disrespectfully - just complaints per se.) When she expresses dislike of something you do, do you see that expression as a love buster in and of itself? How do you feel about working to correct your annoying behaviour, in general?

If my questions annoy you, I'll stop.

I'd like to unpick why you find this a love buster.

Is it that your wife uses words that you find insulting? For example, when she tries to get you to change your posture, does she say that you are lazy? Criticising you by using words like that would be wrong.

Is it that you find complaints in themselves love busters? If you wife says something like "give me some eye candy!" - an attempt to complain pleasantly, would you still find the complaint to be a love buster?

Do you find all complaints to be love busters? If so, why? Do you feel that your wife should be more accepting of you as you are?

________________

Not all complaints are LBs. Very dependent on the wording. Pleasant is fine. I don't think she "should" be more accepting, but it would be great if she was! I accept that different things are annoying to different people i.e. what doesn't annoy me at all can greatly annoy her.

[/quote]

And by the way, Sugarcane, you are not annoying me. Thanks for your time and effort. It is most appreciated!

Do you understand the concept of the love bank?

What do you understand would happen to your wife's love bank if she were more accepting of things about you that she finds annoying?

Yes, I understand the love bank. That's why I don't think she "should" change. I know if it's a love buster for her, then it is, no matter how I may feel.

Well, from that understanding, are you willing to work until you have stopped doing the things she complains about?

To the best of my ability. I am 63 and genetically predisposed to rounded shoulders but I can and will try to sit up better. I will also try to be more accepting of her "reminders"

You see, it sounds from this as if her pointing out that your posture is a love buster annoys you. You say that " she love busts me when she points out that my posture is bad."

The fact that you refer to what you see as your genetic predisposition to bad posture suggests that you think she should leave you alone on this, because you are genetically predisposed to your posture and can do nothing about it. It sounds as if you think she is being unfair to complain about something that is genetic, and not your choice. Is that an accurate assessment? Have you generally felt that she should stop complaining about this, because you believe there is little or nothing you can do about it?

Have you so far tried to correct this to the best of your ability? have you so far assiduously worked on correcting your posture, all the time?

Not ''all'' the time. Not even most of the time. We are talking here and feel we have more important things right now. Gong to work on this but enough said on this issue for now. Thanks

The top 3 love busters, SD, DJ, and AO are our main issues. We really want and need to stop them. We need a sign for each other to cut these off immediately. Any tips on how to do that without hurting each other?

I'd like to point out that , in fact, I'm not actually dealing with the issue of your posture. I'm dealing with the issue of how you respond to your wife's complaints.

What I've seen since your wife first came here is that she has complaints about things that are affecting her feelings for you. It is both the issues themselves that make her unhappy, but also, and perhaps more importantly, the way you respond to her complaints. My understanding is that often you attempt to negate her complaints by sending the rejoinder that she isn't perfect, either. Sometimes you tell her words to the effect that she needs to grow up, which is how you responded yesterday about the mother-in-law issue; sometimes that she should be grateful for what is good about you.

Your responses have been making her unhappy. The complaint she came here with yesterday showed that she felt worn out and despondent at your refusal to respond positively to issues that she brings up; yesterday, it was the issue of how you do or do not support her when your mother is rude to her.

You blazed in here, really angry at her complaint, and put it off limits for discussion. Do you do this in person with her - react so angrily that she realises that she'd better shut up about the issue?

I was shut down when I posted to you before, and it is apparent that, although some areas of your marriage have improved, the issue of how you respond when your wife tells you she is unhappy about something has not improved very much, if at all.

If a husband shows his wife that he is annoyed at her annoyance, and that he is not willing to do much, if anything, to improve as a response to her complaint, it makes the wife feel unhappy with the marriage.

Responding positively to a spouse's complaints is a way of eliminating love busters, which has a positive effect on how much she loves you - the love bank balance. Responding by working assiduously to eliminate the source of the complaint is the way to create a happy marriage for yourself. If a spouse bullies (for that's what it is) the other spouse into submission about their complaints, the feelings of complaint and dislike do not go away. They simply create resentment that has a terrible effect on the happiness of both.

Prisca gave you the very best advice on how to avoid those 3 love busters:

She was talking about complaints here, but you need to apply the same advice to ANY situation that gives rise to those love busters.

For example, if you need to discuss an "issue" such as attending a family event where your mother will be there, you know that this is going to be contentious, and is likely to end with angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements. You need to discuss the problem by email, editing your words carefully to make sure you don't tell your wife to deal with the issue "maturely", or that she bears a responsibility to make the best of the situation. First, she doesn't bear any such responsibility, and second, for you to tell her how to feel or behave, especially when you imply that she needs to grow up and suck it up, is condescending and disrespectful. Don't say that to her face, and don't say it in writing!

Ultimately, angry outbursts need to be dealt with by self-control. You need to learn to calm down in the face of annoyance, and relax. Have we spoken to you about anger management techniques yet?

During the argument about going to the family gathering, did you tell your wife she needs professional help?

If so, what kind of professional help do you think she needs, and what for?

Have you been telling her this for years?

When I referred to getting help, I was referring to how she handles stress. She became very stressed as soon as she found out that our son invited MIL to his house. A couple of hours later she brought this up to me. I said MIL would only be there for about an hour and that most likely, there would be no issues. We POJAed without too many love busters and I assured her that I would be at her side if anything happened. That was the end of that. The problems with the DJs and AOs happened later. I thought things were resolved but we didn't let it go and move on. One thing led to another to create a very stressful evening and night. Neither one of us can recall why things got so bad but they did. I am very concerned about her stress level. She has health issues that are compounded by stress. I at no time during this event told her to suck it up or to grow up. I did say she need to seek help to handle her stress because it is so harmful to her health and to our marriage. She hears grow up and suck it up. That's not what I said. She blames me for the stress. Any time I have suggested help to her it was always for handling stress. I never asked her to "change" because I wanted her to. I have said that I know I can't change her and that she is the only one who can change. She says many times that it is impossible for her to change and that she shouldn't have to change. That is her option, I know but it is very hard on her health and our marriage. The way things affect her at times is scary to me for her health. I've suggested to her for years she had physical health issues and that I wished she would seek help. Finally she was diagnosed with B12 deficiency and later RA. She is finally being treated. I did not tell her to suck up those issues and I am not telling her to suck up her stress issue. I'm saying that when an issue come that stresses her it is harmful to her and if it results in where we are now to our marriage also. I really admit that I don't always say things in the right way. We have an appointment we have to attend to. Thanks for any insights you have

Bariguy, I can tell you from experience that if I told my wife she needed to get help to learn how to manage stress better, she would feel very disrespected.

Bariguy, I can tell you what happened here and how you can avoid this in the future.[in addition to avoiding lovebusters] When you and your wife found out your son had invited the MIL to the house, the solution was to un-invite her or find a way to have her over about which your wife was enthusiastic. I suspect there was no condition that would make your wife enthusiastic. Your wife probably RELUCTANTLY agreed, which is always a mistake. ALWAYS. Just know this simple truth: your marriage will pay dearly for every reluctant agreement so you should avoid them at all cost. Getting your way at her expense, and vice versa, will always cause great damage to your marriage.


Win/lose decisions always lead to resentment. Sure, you have to learn to eliminate lovebusters, but you also need to eliminate completely unnecessary stressful situations by using the POJA: never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse.


It is important to start using the POJA and avoid any situation that causes her stress. As you have observed, the stress is very hard on her health. So stop putting her in stressful situations. The POJA is an amazing stress reducer in marriage.

And Mrs Bari needs to avoid reluctant agreements at all cost. My husband has a lot of anxiety about having company over, so we always carefully observe the POJA. NEVER do I force reluctant agreements on him. You are right that stress that can cause health problems, my H had a heart attack in 2007 because of stress.

But it is what you said. You said it here:

The "maturely" statement implies "grow up". The "am I expected to stay away?" rhetorical question and the "does W bear any responsibility in making the best of a situation?" rhetorical question imply "suck it up".

So is it because it is "stress" that is the problem Markos? If you asked your wife to get medical attention for a sore on her arm or a bad lung infrection would she feel disrespected. When W tells me to take my medication should I feel disrespected? I'm asking here to learn not to be unaccepting of your reply

Sugarcane can you suggest a better way to phrase those statements so there is no disrespect because there certainally was none intended

It's not just a question of rephrasing the statements so that you can say the same things. The point is that, with some things, you should not be taking your approach at all.

The "maturely" statement: using that term implies that you think your wife is being immature. Instead, you both need to be able to discuss issues without DJs, SDs or AOs.

The "am I expected to stay away...? question:

You are expected to use POJA in all your decision-making. You are expected to respect your wife's point of view, and accept her word on how she sees things. If she tells you (and I expect she has told you for years) that you mother is rude, in one way or another, to her, you need to accept her point of view and take it seriously. If she tells you that because of her rudeness she does not like being around your mother, you need to ask what she would like to do; is there a way she could feel comfortable in your mother's presence? If there isn't, then you don't ask her to be in your mother's presence. If you had done this years ago, your mother might have seen the need to treat your wife with respect, the way the mother of her grandchildren deserves to be treated.

Your response when she posted here was more or less to call her a liar. You implied that there was no truth in her point of view. How very insulting that was. If that's how you've been responding to your wife's complaints about being with your mother for several years, you have made things horrible for your wife, and terrible for your marriage. Had you been on your wife's side, you would not be in this hole where she dreads going within 100 yards of your mother, and you fight about the issue.

You should have accepted your wife's view that your mother was rude to her (whatever that meant), and you should not have taken your wife into your mother's presence unless your mother was prepared to treat her with respect. If she wasn't prepared to do that, you should have stopped visiting your mother until she WAS prepared to treat your wife with total respect.

Additionally, POJA means that if you cannot agree on a course of action about which you are both enthusiastic, you DO NOTHING until the issue is resolved to the satisfaction of both. That means that you should have not have been in your mother's presence that weekend unless your wife was enthusiastic about being there.

If you had put the care and protection of your wife at the top of your agenda all these years, you would not have created a resentful wife who has been forced to make sacrifices for you, and who now hates doing so (over some things, at least). If you had been enthusiastic about POJA since you discovered MB, you would never have asked her to "make the best of a situation". If you had put her first above your mother and children, you would have been rewarded with her feelings of love for you.

So, it's not just about rephrasing what you want to say, but without DJs. When it comes to decision-making, it is about using POJA, even if you have to do your negotiations by email. It is about only taking a course of action about which you are both enthusiastic, and if you cannot find that course of action, doing nothing while you continue to brainstorm, even if that means missing the event.

The analogy would be that you have hit her on the arm and caused the sore, or forced her in some way to get a bad lung infection, and then begged her to seek medical attention to deal with the resultant illness. Of course she now needs treatment for the illness, but what she really needed in the first place was for you to have never caused the sore, or the lung infection, in the first place.

You are causing the stress in the way you deal with her opinions and her complaints. If she has told you about your rude mother, and you have brushed her off and told her first, to deal with it, and second, that it's not a big deal and that your mother isn't really rude, you have caused the stress in the first place - and I suspect that this has been going on for years. You should always have listened to her perspective and accepted it, and not tried to either change it or force her to do something about which she is unhappy. If you had done those things, she wouldn't, today, have these stress reactions to those situations.

It seems as if you have been belittling her perspective and rejecting her complaints, and telling her to just get on with things, for years, and then, as things got worse, you have pretty much told her that she is mentally ill and needs a doctor.

That is so cruel, to have caused the pain and then said that, that it takes my breath away.

We are asking you to stop causing the stress. Lets say you hit your wife in the face and she SCREAMS. Is the solution to stop hitting her or would it be to send her to a doctor to get help for her screaming problem?

Stop causing her stress.

Are you the self appointed arbiter of maturity? here

Do you?

There's no "should" about it. Either you feel that way, or you don't. And it has nothing to do with whether or not your wife feels disrespected.

Telling your wife that she should get help makes her feel disrespected. It just does. And you will need to change the way you talk and interact with her to avoid making her feel such disrespect again.

Absolutely she would feel disrespected. My wife is a grown woman and doesn't want me to talk to her like I talk to my children or to tell her what to do. She doesn't want to be enlightened with my superior perspective.

Here's a broadcast where Dr. Harley and Joyce discuss this subject - I encourage you and your wife to listen to it together and then discuss how she feels about it and pick a way to handle the situation that your wife feels enthusiastic about:

http://marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=09493

Firstly, thank you all for your input here. It is very helpful in teaching me I was using the wrong words and wrong approach in communicating with W. When I said mature, I meant without AO, DJ etc. I fully understand what she heard was disrespectful on my part. I have much more to learn. We move forward!

When determining if something you said was disrespectful, what you meant isn't relevant.

It's not that what she heard was disrespectful - it's that what you said was disrespectful. Almost anyone would feel disrespected if you start bringing words like "mature" into it. "Mature" is a value judgment about character. Don't include negative value judgments in the things you say to your wife, because such value judgments are disrespectful.

Listen to the radio clips in here.
Anger Management 101

If I understand this correctly, there are various issues that when they arise, cause your wife to become distressed. The way your mother has treated you wife is one of those issues. Your wife now becomes very distressed at the thought of being in the presence of your mother.

Rather than care for your wife, which would have meant NOT asking her to tolerate a situation that distresses her, it seems that you respond to her distress by telling her to see a doctor.

I can see from your wife's post that she was so distressed that she could no longer consider going to work, and she could not speak to her boss coherently.

Why do you continue to ask your wife to be in your mother's presence when the very thought of doing this causes her to break down?

Where do I start? The reason she couldn't speak coherently to her boss is that I broke every MB rule in the book on Tues. am, 20 minutes before it was time for us to go to work. We both work at the same place. The MIL issue started Saturday. It was POJAed and resolved to, I'm pretty sure, to both our acceptance. The DJs and AOs continued on both parts, but to be fair,and she may disagree, I tried much harder than she did, to move away from. Anyway they didn't stop. I think we both would agree that the rest of the evening's problems were not about MIL but probably more about who was love busting who and we both just kept doing it. Sunday and Monday were excruciatingly terrible for both of us . By Sunday night I made up my mind that I was leaving until she agreed to counseling other than this site. By Monday morning I decided not to because of my unconditional love for her. My like for her was at an all time low. By 4:00 Tuesday, I was again sure I would be gone by the end of the day for both our sakes if we didn't talk and at least start the path to resolving our issues. The unconditional love was not and is not gone. I asked her how she felt about phoning in sick and staying home to try to move forward. She said something like "but we have to drive"(we car pool) I said "but honey, our marriage is much more important than work or car pool or anything else. She wouldn't agree to stay home so I said POJA and I don't want us to go to work. The ensuing half hour was not good. That's when she talked to her boss. I know it was cruel but I also knew it would be more cruel not to force us to talk. She was scared and didn't feel safe. I guarenteed I would do whatever it took to make her feel safe. We did talk and spent most of the day on this site. Thank you all for being there. This morning was not very pleasant due to love busters from her but we did wish each other a good day as we parted at work. I emailed her later to thank her for the way we parted. I will try to address your comments and suggestions in future posts. Sorry for the length of this. If you got to this point I thank you for your patience!

I believe we are both now aware (she before me) that love busters are the real problem here. MIL may be the issue, but how we addressed the issue is the real problem. I am guilty of wanting to resolve the issue without being careful not to love bust W.

The ensuing half hour was not good because you were trying to force your will on her. That is abusive and completely antithetical to the POJA. And to add insult to injury you lectured her about what was or wasn't important like she was a dumb child. What you describe here is very alarming.

Another concern is that she is being forced to be around your mother, which stresses her immensely. The solution to avoid your mother for now until this situation changes. I can tell your wife is in the habit of making reluctant agreements probably after being badgered and lectured like a child. That is a very abusive tactic on your part.

POJA doesnt mean you get to keep her in a conversation that has become unpleasant. As soon as the it is unpleasant, the conversation ends.

If you're going to actually use this system properly, you need to actually use POJA correctly. POJA is a not club but a shield. You need to commit to protecting your wife from decisions that would hurt her. I have yet to see you offer to "do nothing" regarding your church, budget, or mother until you have your wife's enthusiatic agreement. Unless you agree to do nothing until a mutually enthusiastic agreement is reached, you are not doing POJA.

The issue With you mother was not resolved be cause your wife did not enthusiastically agree.

Having trouble with POJA?

W just came and asked what I meant in my email to her when I thanked her for the way we parted this morning because I added "it was probably more than I deserved" I replied that I said that because I had hurt her so badly. She then asked what I thought of what I was reading here. I replied quickly that I thought it was all good stuff. She said you guys were saying what she was trying to say for years. She wanted to know why I think it's good coming from you guys and not from her. I replied that I think in part it is from independent third parties and there are no love busters involved. She said 'they can't love bust us" I said I know. She walked off saying she hoped for more...............not sure what she means

She probably means she hopes you really will learn MB and start living everyday by the concepts and to truly have a romantic marriage that last a lifetime.

And do stop all your love busters.

Have you read this?

No but it's on my to do list.

I think you're mistaken. When you have an enthusiastic agreement, you won't have to keep revisiting the issue. Your wife is far from enthusiastic.

Did you listen to the radio show I posted about this?

What have you got that's higher on the list?

Yes, this sounds pretty straightforward and understandable.

Yes, you can't demand your wife talk! If you don't believe me, ask Prisca!!!

MIL is a real problem, too. Don't dismiss your wife's perspective on this, because dismissing her perspective is a love buster (disrespectful judgment). MIL is a very, very real problem for her, and until you find a solution to it together that your wife is enthusiastic about you need to quit seeing your parents because it will be a constant offense to your wife.

You really need to stop saying the word "both."

You can stop love busting, unilaterally, and you need to.

All those sentences that say "both" are disrespectful judgments - you are blaming her and trying to make your own love busters look better because "she did it, too, we both did it, she was worse."

It won't help you at all to post a diary of all of the love busters and a complete back and forth. That's worse than useless.

What will help is when you learn to view your own love busters IN ISOLATION from her behavior, and learn to stop them NO MATTER WHAT she does.

Are you keeping a list of your love busters? Is your wife giving your worksheets?

You need to have serious concentrated time of studying your love busters so you can learn to eliminate them. During that time you need to not be looking at her love busters at all.

This is a very disturbing account of the way you treated you wife over those days, but especially on the day you thought it acceptable to use the term POJA to justify your cruelty in forcing her to stay at home and talk to you, making her into a nervous wreck. This treatment: "I know it was cruel but I also knew it would be more cruel not to force us to talk" was in fact so cruel that I don't really know where to start.

I gather that you intend to talk to Dr Harley soon. I suggest that you relay the above account to him, and see what problems he pinpoints.

There is the issue of misusing a MB concept (POJA), to justify bullying your wife and reducing her to tears. There is the issue of insisting that she gets counselling. There is the issue of unconditional love - which you seem to think allows you to treat your wife badly because you won't leave her. In fact, unconditional love is a very bad thing in marriage, as it leads to abuse such as you describe here.

From your other posts, there is the issue of how you treat your wife when she makes a complaint about you, or expresses her desire not to do something that makes her unhappy, such as being in the presence of your mother in certain situations.

Your wife seems to be in a desperate state, and this seems to stem from how you have treated her when you want to get your way. Your marriage needs the direct help of Dr Harley, urgently.

Listened to all 4 parts.

And?

Here's your show.
Radio Show of Barigirl and Bariguy

Did you get a chance to do your assignment that Dr. Harley gave you?

Hi
This is a new issue. W says that if I have a different perspective on something it is a DJ to her and that I believe her perspective is wrong. I don't think that at all. I don't think hers is wrong, I think it's different. I think we can learn from our different perspectives and appreciate how each other sees the same situation. Once she explained her perspective on some things I was able to see it from her point of view but I'm really struggling with not being able to share my views on things without her taking it as a DJ. Dr. Harley said I am to apologize to her for past hurts -which I have done and keep doing- and to ask her to help me get back into her good graces -which I continue to do. Do I just agree with whatever she says even if I see the facts differently. She agrees that I am doing better in not using LBs. She states that if I say something and she sees it as a LB then it is whether intended or not. I asked her to let me know when this happens so I can try not to repeat it. Thanks.

Here's another issue that we are struggling with. I only have 2 first cousins on my mother's side, Donna and David. They are half siblings who live in Jacksonville FL. My family are the only family they have. David is single and in poor health. Donna's husband died a few years ago and her adopted son was killed in a car accident at 18 years old a few years before that. She has one adopted daughter and one grandchild. I went, with my sister, to their mother's funeral about 3 or 4 years ago. That was a major IB. I couldn't get over how much Donna and David appreciated us being there and feel I did the right thing.

Now W and I drove from PEI Canada to Florida 2 weeks ago for 5 weeks total away from home. We planned to stay with a first cousin on my Dad's side for a couple of days on the way down. He lives in Bradenton FL. That fell through. I thought about Donna then and knew she would really appreciate a visit and also thought it would save us $100.00 or more for a hotel if we stayed overnight. Long story short this did not go over very well with W. I suggested that at least we go to eat with them and spend an hour or so. We finally POJAed that we would not contact Donna on the way down but would ask for advice from the forum on how to POJA on visiting her on the way back. I have since capitulated that we will not visit her at all but I feel terrible about it. What am I supposed to do?

1. How do you introduce your different perspective?

2. It would be capitulation for your W to stay with family she doesn't want to see. Not visiting this family member was proper POJA.

3. What is a successful POJA to you?

Bariguy, I don't feel you did the right thing if you provided care for people at the expense of your wife's feelings. She has to come first - that's what marriage is.

Refraining from behavior your wife isn't enthusiastic about isn't what Dr. Harley calls capitulating. Capitulating would be if your wife agrees for you to see relatives she isn't really enthusiastic about you seeing.

I would tell your wife you won't do anything she isn't enthusiastic about and won't do anything she is reluctant about and ask what forms of care and friendships she is willing for you two to provide for the cousins.

If these relatives have been disrespectful to your wife at some point she might not feel good for you to see them at all until they have apologized to her and offered assurances that it won't happen again, and you probably need to confront them and let them know.

POJA to me is win win, not win lose which this is to me.

1.How do you introduce your different perspective?
When I did introduce one perspective, I believe I did it kindly and factually without LBs. I have since been made aware that to give any perspective is a DJ so I haven't given any others.

2. It would be capitulation for your W to stay with family she doesn't want to see. Not visiting this family member was proper POJA.
I did suggest we stay, but when W didn't want to, I suggested maybe just go to eat.
So you are saying it was not capitulation on my part to agree to not visit? I'm trying to understand.

3. What is a successful POJA to you?
My understanding of POJA is that we both state what we feel on a subject and do nothing until we come to a solution that we both enthusiastically agree on.

Did you get a chance to do your assignment that Dr. Harley gave you? [/quote]

Sorry so long in replying.

Yes, I have been working on it daily, with some success!

Dr. Harley talks about two types of resentment in marriage, and this is what would be going on in this situation. Here is a thread for you to check out about this:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2550250#Post2550250

Read through that thread and listen to the linked radio shows and see if it helps point you in a direction on this. If not, I suggest you contact Dr. Harley directly on the radio show and see what he says.

If you want to have a happy marriage, you have to avoid gaining at your wife's expense at all costs, even if that means going without something for awhile until you find an alternative you are both enthusiastic about.

Capitulation is doing something.

Not doing something is not capitulation.

Let's say my wife feels reluctant about me drinking alcohol, but I want to drink alcohol.

If she tells me to go ahead and drink anyway even though she feels reluctant about it, that would be her capitulating - agreeing to us doing something she doesn't like.

But if I stop drinking alcohol until and unless we find a way for me to do it that she feels enthusiastic about, that is not what Dr. Harley calls capitulation, because that is me NOT doing something, not me doing something.

Dr. Harley makes an important distinction between doing something and not doing something.

What did you say, exactly? How did you act?

Following the Policy of Joint Agreement
When You're VERY Incompatible

You admit it was a major IB on your part, but you defend your IB as "the right thing."

Chances are, because of that, your wife will never feel enthusiastic about seeing this cousin. When you do an IB, it is up to you to reverse the IB as best as you can without expecting your wife to overlook it. Expecting her to have dinner with your cousin would be expecting her to overlook it.

Consider this letter Dr. Harley wrote to another poster on this subject:


Of course it didn't. You put your cousin before your wife, and defended that as the right thing to do. It would offend most women to have to then go stay at your cousin's house.

You are expecting her to just overlook your IB.


More suggestions that she overlook your IB.

Find something else to do that you would both enjoy. She will not enjoy seeing this cousin. Find something else.

Is seeing your cousin the only thing in the entire world that will make you happy? There is absolutely nothing else that you could do with your wife on this trip that you would enjoy?

If POJA is win-win, why are you trying to force your wife to be the loser?

You are in the habit of IB and you must break that habit to save your marriage.

[quote=markos]Dr. Harley explains his very important concept, Type A and Type B resentment:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3274

I listened to this segment. Our situation was not covered. He referred to a spouse doing something even though the other does not want the spouse to do it - IB. The spouse's resentment in not doing it is type B and the other's is type A. I get that when IB is involved. In our case there is no IB because we are not going to visit the cousin. W is being told on her thread that she is right to refuse to spend an hour or so with someone I would like to see if she doesn't want to. She stated she doesn't even know them as she has only met them once or twice years ago. She provided no reason or explanation as to why she cannot enthusiastically agree to visit for an hour or so and feels I don't deserve either. She makes 95+% of the decisions in our life. That's fine by me as I am probably in enthusiastic agreement at least 50% of the time, in agreement 20%, and capitulate 25-28% of the time. I have told her repeatedly that something has to be really important to me before I even bring it up. I fought with myself for at least 3 days before mentioning a visit to this cousin. I only brought it up because of the policy of radical honesty. I knew that I would be very resentful if I said nothing. Even though the visit won't happen, I at least feel I did my best. In most of our past, I was not even honest, let alone radically honest. I mostly said nothing and carried the resentment that follows. I guess I will be told my resentment is type B and that I'll get over it and I will. Is there situations where there can be type A or B for both spouses?

POJA does not require reasons. The fact that she doesn't want to is enough. You are looking for ways to invalidate her. Stop.

Type A & B resentment does apply to your situation. Type B resntment can be overcome by doing something else enjoyable. So start looking for a new activity for the time in question. T

I don't see the IB here. We are not visiting my cousin because she doesn't want to. How is that IB on my part? Please explain. I am not trying to force her to lose at all. I am loosing and I accept that for the good of our marriage.

That's what we will be doing. Thanks

If you end up doing an activity that is mutually enjoyable, how are you losing?

You are looking at this as you losing if you don't get your way (to see the cousin).

I said you are used to IB, not that situation is IB.

You say you want win-win agreements, but you seem to really want her to accept losing this time and you will lose at another time (what most people consider compromise). POJA requires a higher standard. No one is to gain at their spouse's expense.

You also seem to expect your wife to explain her feelings to you. POJA has no requirement for someone to prove they have a good reason for not wanting to do an activity. A spouse is not a child.

In the future, If you propose an activity and your wife says she is not in enthusiastic about it, the only appropriate rejoinder is "are there any circumstance in which you would be enthusiastic?" If the answer is "no," you need to drop it immediately and pursuit other plans.

You need to stop trying to correct you wife. Have you read Lovebusters yet?

I'm sorry, I don't EXPECT or WANT her to lose anytime on anything. I certainly don't look on this as keeping score. I want to find a way - come to a conclusion we are both happy with. I want only to understand POJA and what it means for both of us and how to be able to use it properly on everything we do. I need to ask questions in order to learn. I now accept that reasons are not required. She has told me this for a long time so she was right. I still don't understand why a spouse would not WANT to give a reason to help the other understand why a request or idea is being rejected but I do accept that in MB reasons are not part of it. Thanks.
I also appreciate the rejoinder you referred to '' is there any circumstances in which you would be enthusiastic'' and if the answer is no then drop it. That will save a lot of discussion time for us. This is how I learn. Thanks

As I stated before, I am not trying to invalidate her feelings. I accept her and her feelings. If I disagree with something she says or feels or if I feel differently on a matter is that an invalidation of how she thinks or feels?

It is ok to feel differently, but what would you possibly disagree about unless you are trying to force her into your will? For example, you can't disagree when she is or isn't enthusiastic about something. My H and I quite feel differently about which restaurant to choose, but we don't disagree, we brainstorm until we find a restaurant we both like. Here is something i wrote a few years back:

Bariguy, the point is that it doesn't matter if you disagree because that misses the point. The point of the POJA is to find solutions about which you are both enthusiastic. Once you get into this habit it becomes 2nd nature. My H and I had a terrible time learning this rule, but if we can learn it, anyone can.

My wife usually doesn't want to give a reason because I had a long standing habit of being a disrespectful jerk to her about her reasons.

Bguy, I think it's important for you to understand that in order to have a happy marriage, you have to change in response to your wife's complaints. You can't get to a happy marriage by talking her out of her complaints.

Don't try to persuade her to see things differently.

Bariguy,

In all seriousness, are you going to continue to abuse your wife?

She's not happy because you are abusing her.

I have been there.

Have you read Lovebusters yet? You are making a number of selfish demands and disrespectful judgements. Stop!

This is what I meant when I said you are acustom to behaving independently and having your wife capitulate. Now you have to consider your wife. If you can't graciously accept her perspective, you need to do nothing. This is not capitulation. It is supposed to be uncomfortable to encourage brainstorming mutually enthusiastic solutions.

If you are having trouble with POJA, SD and DJ, re-read them daily until they sink in. To get up to speed quickly, purchase access to the radio archives and listen to segments on these topics. I listened to about 3 hours a day when I first started. Think of each segment as a case study for MB concepts. This is the test of a lifetime, Start cramming!

Also, on vacation, it is normal to act as if the whole thing is UA time, but y'all need to still set aside 20 hours at least in which you focus on fun, meeting intimate emotional needs and having no relationship discussion.

I don't understand why, as a married couple, we cannot converse. If she complains that the car is dirty and wishes I would wash it, I just go and wash it even though I just finished doing just that?? That's what I'm hearing you say here. W thinks I'm disagreeing with you guys. I'm not. I'm trying to understand. Maybe I'm stupider than the average bear. Would saying ''Honey, I just finished doing that'' be trying to talk her out of her complaints or trying to persuade her to see things differently?

I want to ask if MB thinks different personality types react or respond to the same issues differently? Do different personality types think differently? Do couples have struggles due to differing personalities?

What is her specific complaint?

Of course. Adults learn to respond well. You are responding poorly. Stop the AOs. When is the last time you studied the love busters?

Dr. Harley gave you an assignment. You are supposed to be wooing your wife out of stage 2. What are you doing for this goal?

Dr. Harley also have your wife an assignment, to complain when your behavior bothers her and to not make reluctant agreements. She is completing her assignment.

Did you say these things to your wife?

"He insists that if he wants to do something and I don't, then doing nothing is him capitulating. He wants me to have "goodwill" and do this thing that is "so important to him". "

This is not about washing the car. This is about your wife not wanting to see your relatives. She's not enthusiastic about it, but you are giving her consequences for not agreeing to go see them.

You can converse. Y'all can discuss a trip to the beach, whether Pluto is planet, your likes/dislikes about the last movie you saw together, a Mars colony and whether you could/would live on it, cute things your kids/grandkids did lately, dream vacation, should DW's sonic screwdriver be added to the dictionary...

You cannot converse if it includes demands disrespect and angry outbursts. If you begin to get upset, say "I need a break" and go cool off. Demanding to visit family is a selfish demand.

Go get 2 journals and a small flip notebook. One journal is for your wife to write her complaints. The second journal is for you to document what you l arm from the program, including quotes and thoughts on the reading, your assignments, and key advice on from the forum. You may also want to copy over your wife's complaints. Write out any concepts you are struggling to learn, like friends and enemies of good conversation, steps of POJA, etc.

The small notebook you should keep in your pocket to jot down ideasas you have them, like good conversation topics or possible solutions for POjA.

Remember, priority #1 is no angry outbursts.

Is it okay that she thinks the car is dirty and needs cleaning even if you "finished doing just that?"

"Honey, you shouldn't feel that the car is dirty, and you shouldn't be asking if I would clean it, because I just did that."

Of course. Adults learn to respond well. You are responding poorly. Stop the AOs. When is the last time you studied the love busters?

Dr. Harley gave you an assignment. You are supposed to be wooing your wife out of stage 2. What are you doing for this goal? [/quote]

The wooing was proceeding with some success. We hit a road block(a result of what I thought was radical honesty - maybe but misguided) and the next two weeks have been rough and I admit my wooing has not been great. Not due to lack of effort. Some of it was probably misguided and I feel some of it was rejected. We are presently not in a good place. I think it improved at least a bit in the last four hours. There have been some misunderstandings concerning posts. We just finished reading all of our posts since April 12 together and discussed them. Some things were clarified. We were both hurting so much we were hardly talking. I asked at supper what I could do to get back into her good graces and that got us talking again. I will be asking her each morning from now on the same thing. I'm trying to listen and learn. W keeps telling me I'm not 100% committed. I do have questions but agree with MB principles. Thanks for this question.

What are the AOs you refer to?

If she asks you to do something you don't want to do, for whatever reason, just tell her you are not enthusiastic. Then, don't do it.

I discussed this with W. We both agree, the words were said, but not in the context that would be taken from the way they are written above. The first part, ''He insists........'' was said as part of a discussion on capitulation. Goodwill was something I said was necessary for POJA not something to be used to force W to do something.

So...how is that different from what your wife wrote? It sounds that her statement is accurate.

You haven't answered my questions about your reading/studying.

Educating your spouse is a disrespectful judgement. Stop it. It is not a part of MB.

Well, is it?

It is different in the way that it was part of a discussion on capitulation. I was not demanding she do anything. I was saying that if one wants to do something and the other doesn't and there is no POJA possible, then nothing is done. I said one of us would be capitulating. I was since instructed that doing nothing is not capitulation. This was only an example used in a discussion, not an actual situation. Two weeks ago it was decided that we would NOT be visiting my cousin. Many of the posts from you guys appear to be of the understanding that I am still demanding that we visit my cousin. I am not demanding anything since we POJAed that two weeks ago.
Also on the goodwill part, it was also part of a discussion. I stated that for POJA to work, goodwill on both parts is required. I was definitely not saying that if she had goodwill towards me, she would visit my cousin or do anything else I wanted her to do that she didn't want to do. Please ask her if this is incorrect.

POJA is always possible though. The 'do nothing' is not the resolution, it is the default until you reach a resolution.

If you want to visit your cousin, for example, and she does not, you do not visit the cousin (do nothing)... but you continue to POJA until you find an alternative you are BOTH happy with. The fact that you defaulted to the do nothing but did not continue to POJA to find a resolution that made you both happy, does not mean that you capitulated.

I am reading and studying to a point far beyond what I thought I would be doing while on vacation because my marriage is more important than vacation.

Can you define what you think 'goodwill' means? If a spouse demonstrates goodwill in POJA situations, what does this mean to you?

If I understand correctly, when you said this, your wife felt disrespected, because it certainly did sound like you were saying she did not have goodwill toward you (and if she did she'd be doing something different, such as for example visiting your cousin).

So the problem is you need to not talk like this because it's a disrespectful judgment and a love buster.

Don't say anything that sounds like you are telling your wife how she does or doesn't feel (e.g., has goodwill or not). Don't say anything that sounds like you are educating your spouse.

To me, in reference to POJA, it means each spouse working towards a solution that both are enthusiastic about and not wanting the other to have to sacrifice to achieve it.

This was not the case here. Please ask her. The "visit" has been off the table for over two weeks. I was not saying she would visit my cousin if she had goodwill towards me. I was repeating, during a discussion with W on POJA, what Dr. Harley said. For POJA to work, there needs to be goodwill on the part of both parties. I may or may not have referenced the "visit" in that particular discussion. If I did, she was fully aware that it was as an example only and not a suggestion that she would go if she had goodwill toward me.

Did you do this?

Is this a broadly accurate description of how some of your days have been, while on vacation? Have you been cold and silent to your wife on some days, and have you told her (words to the effect) that she has caused the problem by bringing up MB?

Did you do this?

Have you said (words to the effect) that when you want to do something, and your wife does not want to do it, that doing nothing is an act of capitulation on your part?

Have you asked your wife more than once to do the thing that she has already said that she does not want to do - the thing that is so important to you?

Even though visiting your cousin seems to have been taken off the table, have you been silent and cold to your wife as a result of that decision?

If not as a result of that decision, why have you been cold and silent, if indeed you have?

For Marriage Builders to work you have to stop telling your wife how the POJA works. Do you understand this? Don't educate your wife, because it's a love buster. Your goal is to top off your balance in your wife's love bank, not drain it into the red.


Please stop getting hung up about the visit.

When you told your spouse how POJA should work it was a love bank withdrawal. I have given you one example of why she might have seen it that way. Quit arguing that the example is wrong. It doesn't matter if the example is right or wrong. It was a love bank withdrawal. You are an abusive lecturing husband who is going to lose your marriage if you can't start looking for the ways we are right rather than trying to debate every point.


Was it a love buster or not, Bariguy?

Are you making your wife miserable or not, Bariguy?

Take a good look at her, and when you are ready to learn how to make your wife happy instead of miserable come back and LISTEN because we can help you with that.

So, cut it out.

"I didn't abuse my wife this way, I abused her that way."
This is, essentially, what you are saying.
The nitty-gritty details are not important. What's important is that you've abused your wife. And she's scared of being honest with you.

So, cut it out.

This was a discussion. It was not an effort to educate!

What I meant was she was unaware that I just finished cleaning it. What I was saying was that presenting facts as a response to a complaint is NOT disagreeing or refusing to accept the complaint. You were saying if she complains I am to act on it with no questions asked. I'm saying if there are facts she is unaware of I need to be able to state them.

I'm sorry, cut what out? I wish you were here to have heard the conversation. I was NOT lecturing her or educating her, we were talking about POJA and how it works. She made statements, I made statements. Please ask her if you want further explanation.

No Bari we aren't saying to act with no questions asked. This program bring the best wisdom of both of you that is how it's successful. I don't know the details of the car cleaning but for example if she says she is uncomfortable it was dirty then that is a good opportunity to show her you care about her, and talk about what is clean for each of you.

It will get so much easier and become second nature as you fall in love again. I can imagine it feels weird at the moment. Hang in there! Feelings follow actions.

Regardless of what you call it it was a large love bank withdrawal, and this marriage recovery plan will never work if you don't stop doing it.

If you can't learn to recognize your own abusive behaviors it would be best for her wife if she would separate from you until you can recognize and eliminate them.

Bariguy are you listening to Dr. Harley's daily radio show? You're having a lot of the same problems I had when I came here - you are very disrespectful to your wife and don't realize it because you don't recognize that your behavior is disrespectful.

Your wife is going to be a lot happier when you learn to recognize and eliminate your disrespectful behavior. You need to be aware that Dr. Harley considers disrespectful judgments to be marital abuse. Like me, you have arrived at this site as an abusive husband and don't yet recognize it.

You need to get every chance you can to learn to recognize your DJs - listen to the radio show!

So is it okay that she thinks it's still dirty even though you already cleaned it?

Is it okay that she, like most women, would see you "presenting the facts" as being disrespectful?

Who said to do that? If someone said that, you should click notify on the post and tell the mods about it. We are only allowed to teach Marriage Builders here, and that is not part of the program.

Is it possible you were being told something deeper, and you missed the point because you are getting caught up in the details of the particular conversation you had with your wife? It really does seem like you are trying to set us all straight on the details instead of listening to what we are saying that holds true regardless of what she said vs. he said.

Stop telling her what Dr. Harley said. Stop explaining how POJA works. She's a grown woman who can read. She doesn't need you telling her.

You may not call it educating her, but you are educating her. It is disrespectful. I don't need to hear the conversation to know that -- all I need to know is that you told her what Dr. Harley said.

Fall in Love, Stay in Love, page 110
https://books.google.com/books?id=S...QKHTF5BNEQ6AEISDAH#v=onepage&f=false


Love Busters, page 88

Yes, I'm caught up in the details. I think details and words are important because I believe it is important to understand and accept intent. I heard one person state he tries not to take offense where no offense is intended. I also accept that what W hears and feels is more important than my intent. Therefore I will not be responding to details anymore. I will try my best to look at MB principles only. I admit I'm a tough nut to crack. Thanks for your time and efforts.

Your wife cannot change how she feels about your words, no matter how well she understands your intent.

If certain phrases are a love buster it is up to you to understand that they are a love buster and filter them out of what you say, if you want your wife to be happy in your marriage.

We have helped dozens of people understand this and we would like to help you, too, but we need you to listen to us when we say something is important, rather than debate us and tell us why you think it is the other way around. You're not the one who knows how to have a good marriage, here - if you were, you wouldn't be here.

That's cute on paper, but it doesn't work in marriage. Not if you want your wife to be in love with you.

If the stuff you've heard before led to a good marriage, your wife wouldn't be unhappy, and you wouldn't be here.

Learn something new - learn Marriage Builders - it works!

If you wanted to live by that, it would be fine. Although I doubt you will have much success, because feelings cannot be controlled.

However, it would be disrespectful to expect your wife to follow that rule. Don't tell her how to feel. If you want her feelings to be different, act different.

I believe the scenario Bariguy is trying to ask about is this:

The car was dirty and they both knew it.
BariGuy cleaned the car, but only he knew he had done that.
BariGirl was not looking at the car thinking it was still dirty, she was simply unaware that it had been cleaned and said something like "the car is dirty, would you clean it?"

Bariguy is very literal and is asking if saying "I just cleaned it" would be considered arguing, or simply letter her know it's taken care of.

I'm not an MB expert but I believe in that scenario that yes, of course you would inform your spouse that it was already done. Of course you would inform them cheerfully as opposed to in a martyred or exasperated tone - like "I already did!"

And if you want to make love bank deposits you might ask you spouse to check it out and let you know if you missed anything. And if you THINK you said "I just cleaned it" in a nice way but your spouse takes offense anyhow, accept that she found the way you said it disrespectful and don't argue with her about that. If she's used to being the subject of DJs and unwanted "education" from you, she's going to be hyper sensitive until she feels safe again. And that will take time.

Re the POJA/good will discussion - I suspect Bariguy, that you thought you were just discussing the concept in general, you had an epiphany - "If I had built more good will with you, you might be naturally enthusiastic about visiting my family, so I can see how over time the POJA will not only keep us from hurting each other with selfish demands, but due to the good will we will build, knowing something is important to each other might actually make us feel enthusiastic about doing something we wouldn't naturally want to do. But we will also know that if we aren't genuinely enthusiastic we won't do it and there will be no recriminations. Or if we do it once enthusiastically and don't like it, we know there will be no demands to do it again."

But based on the history of DJs and educating your wife, she understandably heard "if you had good will toward me you would have wanted to do it" which = "you don't care about me and what is important to me and I guess my life just sucks now..."

That's okay. Clarify and move on. But there's no need to argue with her or the forum about what you meant. No one thinks you're the devil. You're just a typical person who is becoming aware of how his wife feels when he says and does things that feel innocent/natural to him but horrible to her. You have the opportunity to change all that. Many men never get chance and never understand how they are hurting their wife. They just find she turns bitter and then one day she is gone.

Hang in there!

Anywife, you are missing what we are trying to teach Bariguy, which is more important than the details of the car story.

I know what Bariguy is asking. What I want is for him to actually answer the question: Is it okay that she thinks the car is still dirty even though you already cleaned it? And, is it okay that she felt disrespected?

Thank you Prisca. I understand now.

I do not consider myself obtuse but I have been told by many people that I am too literal when reading emails & posts. And unnecessary misunderstandings seriously destabilize my mental health.

I did get your bigger point that you were asking if he considered something clean and she considered the same thing dirty, would that be okay with him?

But every time I read that question "is it okay that she think's it's dirty even though..." I couldn't get past the "that she thinks" part and I kept wanting to have an AO and shout: but she doesn't think it's dirty, she has no idea he just cleaned it! He was asking if it would be disrespectful to give her that information..."

Of course it's ok in both cases.

Okay, so if you know she's upset because she feels disrespected, and that she also has a very different point of view from you, what would you do about that?

I would ask her, respectfully, to point out what areas I missed and I would redo them.

So I'm back and in trouble We went through some great times and some rough times since my last post. This past weekend and this week are the roughest of all. W ended up so stressed that she is staying someplace since Sun. There were at least 3 unfortunate misunderstandings that lead to love busters and stress and more love busters and more stress. I did accuse her of using love busters more than once in a love busting way. In my hurt, I failed to consider her hurt. We are conversing by text and email. I want to paste an email exchange and have you critic my parts of it to let me know how I could have said it better. Here it is.

From her:

The plan was to lessen my stress. I left so that I did not have to endure you inflicting pain on me.
I hoped that you would love me enough that you would finally do all the things you have promised to do re MB. I hoped this would be a final wake up call.
I see that I was misguided to retain that last bit of hope.

From me:
Honey I do love you enough and more than enough. I am working on the things. It took me over half an hour just to get back onto the MB website last night as Bariguy. My password wouldn�t work. I had to email to get a new one and then I tried to post but either the web site or my iPad kept screwing up because it kept jumping to a different area and then would reload. Then I tried again to the same result. If you want me to take the day off tomorrow to go through all the rest of the posts and then start posting again I will gladly do that. Don�t ever doubt my love for you. It will always be there. I am not blaming you for the love busters I use. I know I have love busted you and I take full responsibility for them. I am sorry and like I said, I will be listening to our program on a weekly basis so I keep my assignment in the forefront. When you say you were misguided to retain that last bit of hope, please know that you certainly were and certainly are not misguided. It�s only that I don�t know where you are at. I don�t know what you are thinking. I will not say anything else about your decisions and just wait for you. I am sorry if what I did already say caused stress. It�s the last thing I want to do.

I Love you and always will

From her:
I don't know where you are at, in your head.
The email you sent me yesterday was good to read. But I still am struggling greatly. I feel in limbo, not knowing if anything is happening on your part.
If I am to have any hope at all, I need an action plan from you. I need communication about progress being made.

From me today:
I don�t know where I am in my head. I am very confused and concerned. I go from just wanting to hold you close and love you to wanting to set conditions for us getting back together. Sometime I am so sad and sometimes I am so mad. All I know is my heart is aching for you and the hurt you are carrying. I am also very hurt by your abuse of me but I am willing to endure it if it helps relieve your stress. I told you last evening that I am through most of the posts. My iPad was acting up again last night. I thought it was the internet due to DS18 (our 18 year old son) watching Netflix but I powered off the iPad and then it worked better. Between that, reading my previous posts on MB with the view of learning from them, and talking/listening to DS18, I did not get to post anything. DS18 is not in a good place about this. You will have to be patient with him. I have to send another email to Dr. Harley and I may be ready to post something tonight. That�s about all I have for now.

I Love you

From Her:
I don't know what to do with your anger. It sounds like you want to give up.

From me:
Where, oh where, do you see anger in there, W. There is only heart break for you, hurt for me, and confusion. There is no anger. I am not angry with you, W. I suppose when I said I was sometimes mad, you took as anger. It is hurt. If it fits you better to call it anger then that�s fine. I will never give up. I will always hope. All I have is hope.

Love you

From her:
If you would be open to it, the forum could help you with your emails so that I don't hear anger, blame and guilt tripping. It certainly doesn't "fit me better".

Hugs,

From me:

That�s where I can start then. I will post this and ask for their help. Thanks.

So there you have it. I need help getting the anger, blame and guilt tripping out of what I say to her. I thought she was asking how I was feeling - where I was at in my head.

What happened that caused her to leave?

Your email does sound very angry and you even say: The underlined sentences are very concerning. Your wife is so stressed out that she felt the need the leave and you tell her that you are being "abused" and that you want to "set conditions" for her coming back. That is throwing gasoline on the fire and I am not sure how that is supposed to help.

Then when she points out it sounds angry, you deny it and say "if it fits you better call it anger." She is trying to tell you how you come across and you are slapping her for it.

Your emails don't seem to reflect any understanding or acknowledgement of the reasons that caused her to leave. Instead they are all about your "hurt."

What were the rough times?

She asked where I was at in my head. That's what I responded to. I asked google to define anger. It said it is a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility. I always though anger was about hostility which I don't think I am. I am displeased for sure so then yes, I am angry. W accuses me of being the woman in our situation. Maybe I am. I am struggling severely with my feelings. Dr Harley said it might be a good idea for the time being to encourage W to teach me about her perspective and how I affect her, while I do what I can to adjust my behavior to accommodate that perspective. I will be working on that. I appreciate your help in pointing this out. I will not express any negative feelings from now on.

Have you read this and listened to the radio clips in here?
Anger Management 101

What did you get from this?

Have you read this and listened to the radio clips in here?
Anger Management 101

What did you get from this?
It's been a while. I will listen to it again tonight.

What happened that caused her to leave? That's a pretty significant issue.

What happened that caused her to leave?

We were working on the HWSW workbook on the sex issues. I snickered when the issue of nightie vs pajamas came up and that POJA would say she should wear nothing. It seamed to trigger something in her and we handled the issue poorly. This ruined our UA time that was scheduled for that evening. The next afternoon and evening I thought were pretty good. Not great but I thought pretty good. Sunday a couple of other issues came up that were handled poorly. mostly not on purpose by either of us but resulted in both of us being stressed. At that point I did not recognize her stress in the way she needed me to. Blinded by my hurt, I failed her in her need. I failed to follow the assignment Dr. Harley gave me - to get back into W's good graces. I was there for the previous 2 weeks. but I failed miserably to put her needs ahead of mine which caused stress for her. Bottom line, I failed to care for her in the way she needed.

Have you read this and listened to the radio clips in here?
Anger Management 101

What did you get from this?
It's been a while. I will listen to it again tonight.
I listened to it again. I guess I recognize myself a bit more in it especially when he says I want people to agree with me. He also said that I and only I have control over my anger. Is this also true for stress?
He said when I am frustrated, I can choose anger or solutions. I need to recognize this and look for solutions. I also see that anger doesn't only mean cursing or throwing things. It can also be in how I reply to the things W says.

It doesn't sound like you "failed to put her needs ahead of" yours but that you lovebusted her so badly that she felt she needed to leave.

What were the lovebusters?

"Blinded by my hurt" sounds very dramatic. Can you be specific about what you mean?

It doesn't sound like you "failed to put her needs ahead of" yours but that you lovebusted her so badly that she felt she needed to leave.

What were the lovebusters?

"Blinded by my hurt" sounds very dramatic. Can you be specific about what you mean?

I don't know what the love busters were. All I remember now is that she was hurting and saying she couldn't handle the stress and that I was pushing her away and causing the stress and I couldn't figure out how I was doing this. I was trying to explain that things were great 2 days ago, and wondering what happened rather than just accepting she was stressed. I was also very confused by how fast everything could go from so great to so bad so quick. I was baffled. But mainly I wasn't hearing her. On top of all this I was becoming more hurt by the second because we were going in the wrong direction at lightening speed. Things were so great and went to so bad. She seemed unconsolable and no matter what I said about moving on and not letting this glitch get the better of us, she just kept saying how much stress I was causing her and that she couldn't handle it. I don't know any more than that. I don't know what love busters I used. I did have abrief AO when she was getting in the car to leave. I believe she would say I used DJ also so I must have.
My hurts run deeper that I can express here. I will be emailing Dr Harley.