Hi, I will try to keep this short. What I am asking are your thoughts on what has recently transpired between my FWH and a potential inappropriate relationship.

I survived on this forum between 2003 and 2005, maybe longer. My H and I made it though recovery, and all had been well until 2014. I'm not sure why my initial login name is different now.

Brief background. We have our own business which I manage. I have total access to his cell phone records, texts, email, and client records because I need to be able to communicate to our clients on his behalf.

We met the potential OW when she registered for a class he was teaching. She went on to schedule an appointment with him because she needed help beyond what she learned in class.

Nothing unusual until 2015. I started seeing a change in tone in their email exchanges. Not everything in the emails were copied into her client file by him and I became alarmed at the enthusiastic banter that seemed to be ongoing that wasn't showing up in her file.

I confronted my H and told him that I was having flashbacks to his 1st affair because he seemed to be relaxing his boundaries with her and letting her in emotionally. Side note - his favorite celebrity body type is Kelly Ripa. This client isn't glamorous, but she is very lean like Kelly Ripa.

He responded beautifully the best I could hope for and said he would stop that kind of communication with her. He saw her periodically with months gaps between their appointments. Yet every time after an appointment a lot of email exchanges with enthusiastic emotions/banter.

I didn't say anything deciding instead to watch things unfold closely. In 2016 her appointments became more frequently because her cat was getting sicker. In 2017 he saw her for a late appointment that he has never done for anyone else, and he didn't charge her.
He had a story blah, blah, blah. More frequent phone calls,cat gets sicker. During one evening phone call I sat down nearby and watched him. He became uncomfortable and when he hung up I had a meltdown.

No proof, so there was nothing to confront. I came to realize that most of my problem is that I was so blindsided by the 1st affair, that I lost faith in my instincts to see reality.

My question to all of you is, do you think I have reason for concern, or am I over reacting.

Lastly when it was time to euthanize her cat, I knew he would do it, but I was shocked to find out he agreed to do it in a house call. I freaked out again; major flashback from previous affair. The housecall was 2 days ago. He's been acting strangely since then, but he did move her file to inactive status.

There is no reason they should be in contact going forward, and I have seen no evidence they have been in communication.

My plan is to take a wait and see approach; but I am flipping from relief she might be out of our life, and panic that she might not be. It's disturbing to see him acting sad/depressed, yet trying to put on a show of "all is well".

Ugh, this isn't so short after all. Any perspective is greatly appreciated.

Welcome back to MB (I'm sorry to say!)

You don't need a reality check; you need proof. I'm sorry that you didn't handle this better when he was in open contact with this woman. What you should have done months ago is ask him to stop having anything to do with this woman: not because you were having flashbacks to his first affair, but just because. If you are uncomfortable with your husband's interaction with ANY woman, you need to ask him to stop interacting with her, and he needs to agree.

He shouldn't have had anything to do with her after you asked him to stop the banter, in 2016. If he had done that, the house call would never have taken place. Since he's acting 'sad/depressed', it is clear that something went on.

You already have access to his email, so he won't use that channel of communication. You need to get hold of his phone and put spyware on it, and you can also hide a voice-activated recorder somewhere in the car, where he might have phone conversations with her.

In future, and for anyone else reading this, a spouse needs to ask for all contact with someone that makes them uncomfortable to stop, completely. Do not wait and watch your spouse, testing to see where things go from the first stages of banter. We are not trying to catch them when it happens. We know that all of us would have affairs if we allow ourselves to be in risky situations. We need to prevent the affairs by removing the risky situations - i.e. private conversations and private meetings.

Hi SugarCane, thanks so much for your advice. It didn't occur to me to ask for a no-contact with her at that point in 2016. I will do so now when we get together this evening.

What if he says no?

Just asking will help me feel like I am getting my personal power back. I have been a puddle over this. Normally I am resourceful, resilient, and tenacious.

I have access to all call/text logs business and personal cell. I check them often and her number doesn't show up.

I have email logs of their emails all the way back to 2014, but I want to save them to a back up.

He doesn't know/understand call logs; he's not tech savy and it has always bored him since I handle that part of our business.

Thank you again for being here for me. No one can possibly understand like Mbers can. Blessings to you.

STOP. Do not ask him this now. If you do, you will put him on alert and he will hide whatever evidence the "affair" that exists.

I know I said you should have asked for this last year, but that was before it was clear that something had happened. Now it is clear that something has happened, and this is because of his making a house call - something that sounds as if it is unusual - and his appearing to be depressed about something.

I think you need to find out what happened, and you DON"T want to put him on alert that you are on to him - not now. Use a VAR to find evidence. Even if you ask him to do this now, I highly doubt that he will never contact her again, just because the cat is finally no more. There is a lot more to this than a dying cat.

You need to go into secret spy mode. Put a keylogger on his phone and computer because he is likely contacting her in a way that won't show on the phone records or bills. Messages in apps won't show up if he erases them.

You already know he went too far with this woman. Now you need to find the evidence. Snoop.

Also, why didn't you go on the house call with him?

Lucky, these forums have changed greatly since you posted here regularly, over 10 years ago. What has changed is that advice is given only in accordance with what we've learned from Dr Harley - from his books and articles, from listening to the daily radio show, and from the advice he gives in the private forum for those who have done the online course.

If, all those yeas ago, you had been given the advice we now insist on, about extraordinary precautions, you would have insisted on a transparent marriage from then on, and if your husband had refused this, you would have separated from him. There is no way he would have been able to have email banter with this woman right under your nose, because the moment you saw this happening you would have asked for no contact. If he had refused (to answer your earlier question), you would have shown him the door.

This forum focuses a great deal on the prevention of affairs through having an integrated, transparent marriage. No area of one spouse's life is allowed to be secret for the other, and that includes working relationships. That isn't to say that affairs, including workplace affairs, are impossible, but it does mean that a spouse cannot drift into an affair that starts as a friendship, as almost all affairs do.

It is unusual (in my experience) for a spouse to have had the open access to emails that you had, and for an "affair" still to have developed. Workplace affairs usually flourish because one spouse does not know that these emails (or lunches of coffee meetings) are taking place. In your case, it seems that you did not feel that you could follow through on your discomfort and ask for the contact to stop altogether.

Here is some advice from Dr Harley, who posted to a woman the private forum. She was unhappy with her husband's justification of his allegedly platonic friendships with women:


As you can see, your feeling of discomfort should have been enough for him to have terminated this contact immediately. As I said, for those reading along, you need to ask explicitly for an end to any relationships that make you uncomfortable. You do not need to be logical and rational about it; your discomfort should be enough for your spouse to act - because they care about you - and if it isn't, you need to act on this - i.e. separate from him or her.

Wow you all have written some powerful stuff. Reminds me of how much H and I have forgotten. This is a good wake up call. The 1st affair D-day happened 2003 when he could no longer live with the dishonesty/guilt.

He sat me down and told me everything about his affair. He had previously found one of Dr. Harley's books in the waiting room of a doctor's office, read some, then bought his own copy. He knew what he had to do. That's why he came clean on d-day. He said, "I will do whatever it takes to save our marriage".

I read Dr. Harley's book that he had, bought all the rest of them and my whatever it takes was counseling with Dr. Harley. We went through all of it. Dr. Harley guidance saved our marriage and made it better.

We continued working Dr. Harley's program for several years until we felt we were doing it naturally, so no need for a formal structure.

Now I see how far we've fallen. You're all right in what you're saying. It resonates with me; it's all coming back.

I won't ask for no contact SugarCane, I see your point. I believe the place for us to start is extraordinary precautions. Bless you SugarCane for posting Dr. Harley's article. I now remember it well.

You're right, there's more to this than a dying cat. He has great need for admiration; that came out when we first filled out emotional needs. We learned that he needed to be aware of his unrealistic need for admiration because that leads him down the wrong path.

We also learned that the more successful he is, for some reason the greater his need was for admiration. His need was beyond what one person (me) could give him naturally. A black hole that couldn't be filled from the outside from other's admiration, but instead needed to be filled from the inside of himself.

And when a pretty woman gives him admiration it's addictive.

This came up not long ago in a different context. He won a big contract that will be life changing. He asked me to help him deal reasonably with his emotions, because we both remember that a past big success in 2001 intertwined with his first affair.

What I didn't connect until today with all of your help, is that it's his need for admiration that partly at the root of this.

To answer apples123 question, he actually did invite me to come. I declined. He also said her mother would be there.

I am so grateful to all of you. I am feeling some peace knowing I have a sense of direction. I think this current story will come out during the extraordinary precautions discussion.

I am going to give this a few days then open extraordinary precautions discussion with him. I agree with SugarCane, I don't think he will be in contact with her - but there might be a next person and a next time if we don't get back on track with our MB work. I still have my notebook.

There aren't words to express my gratitude to all of you.

That's not what I said! I said the direct opposite:

It's my tortured British English - that was a double negative. I am saying that I feel strongly that he WILL be in contact with her - hence my advice to stop asking question but definitely to spy, instead.

Hardly anyone ends an affair cleanly. There is always lingering contact. She will be upset, and will keep calling to see if she can get him back...or something else will be happening. This has not ended yet - not with things coming to a head only two days ago.

Are you going to place a keylogger on his phone and VAR where he may be speaking to her?

Ooh, I see what you said now. I think I read what I wanted to read as well. I will do spy mode and I will stop asking questions.

I really thought this would be a dead issue once the cat was gone. There is no reason for legitimate contact now. My thought that day was to watch his behavior behavior after he got back. He was not normal, nor has he been since. I've had that kicked in the stomach feel.

One more flashback. I forgot how count-intuitive this process is.

I don't feel out of control anymore.

How did you counsel with Dr Harley? he doesn't normally do direct counselling. His son Steve does the telephone counselling, while Dr Harley oversees what in your day would have been the course after the Weekend Seminar. Did you go on the Seminar?

I only advised you not to ask for no contact today, because you need to spy on him instead, and you don't want to put him on alert. By no means did I intend for you to drop that demand altogether. You need to ask for this, but later down the line.

Who told you this? Did Dr Harley say it directly? I'm a bit surprised, as he tends not to judge emotional needs as "unrealistic". They just are. Was it, perhaps, other posters on the forum that told you this?

Perhaps Dr Harley did say that to you back then, but didn't he also say that this was a need that you, his wife, should try to meet, and that your husband needed to be aware...not so much of his unrealistic expectations, but of his vulnerabilities, and that he needed to keep his defences high?

This is what he needs to keep his defences high against. However, I don't think this demonstrates an excessive need in your husband. We are all wired for affairs, and we can all have them if another person successfully meets our most important needs - whatever they are.

And most of us would love to be flattered and admired. We don't have to have an excessive need to be vulnerable to that.

It's not his emotions that he needs your help with, but his personal extraordinary precautions. He needs to let you see every aspect of his interactions with other women. He wouldn't flirt with another woman right in front of your face, would he? Well then: if you are there, and watching, even when you are not there (as it were), he won't do things that hurt you.

One more thing SugarCane - you said

"Hardly anyone ends an affair cleanly. There is always lingering contact. She will be upset, and will keep calling to see if she can get him back...or something else will be happening. This has not ended yet - not with things coming to a head only two days ago."

That was the case in the 1st affair. We sent Dr. Harley's no contact letter and she ignored it. Dr. Harley gave me the go ahead to contact her directly by sending her a letter. In it I told her that if she did not stop trying to contact WH, I would send a copy of the no contact letter to her mother.

I have this person's mother's name as well if I need to go that route. It worked with the 1st OW.

Do you think you could find an old thread with you story on it, and link it here, please?

CSue's old thread

Is this you?

I see your post. It was Steve Harley we worked with, phone counseling. I thought Steve had a PhD.

"Who told you this? Did Dr Harley say it directly? I'm a bit surprised, as he tends not to judge emotional needs as "unrealistic". They just are. Was it, perhaps, other posters on the forum that told you this?"

Unrealistic was my word. It felt unrealistic to me.

"Perhaps Dr Harley did say that to you back then, but didn't he also say that this was a need that you, his wife, should try to meet, and that your husband needed to be aware...not so much of his unrealistic expectations, but of his vulnerabilities, and that he needed to keep his defences high?" Yes exactly you are correct

"It's not his emotions that he needs your help with, but his personal extraordinary precautions. He needs to let you see every aspect of his interactions with other women. He wouldn't flirt with another woman right in front of your face, would he? Well then: if you are there, and watching, even when you are not there (as it were), he won't do things that hurt you."

We had a similar discussion before the cat died after I was sitting listening to his end of the conversation with her. In essence I told him my hope was that he would treat OW the same as he would like other men to treat me. And the way OW treated him is how he would like for me to treat other men.

You say it better.

Apple123 Yes it sure is! Wonderful

OMG I am going to cry. There it is. Thank you.

Hi Apples, is there somewhere on this site that tells how to do this? What is a VAR?

I'm ready to read about it; not sure if I'm ready to do it.

Apples, thank you for the gift of my previous self. I wonder where the rest of the posts are. Wow