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You don't know if he might do something adversary before that time.

Last edited by happyheart; 03/21/17 01:08 PM.

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Thank you BrainHurts and Happy Heart. I had previously ruled out moving before June because the children's school term finishes on June 15 and they would be really upset to leave their friends. But given that being here is causing me a lot of stress, I will reconsider that decision and see if I can get them into a new school in the neighbouring country before the end of the school year.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I've just received a very comprehensive legal opinion from the lawyer I went to see last week. It lays out all the relevant legislation and discuss all issues related to children, finances, court jurisdiction, and the likely cost of divorce proceedings (including the costs of comparative assessment of the two countries matrimonial property laws). It makes pretty scary reading for someone contemplating divorce. My question is, should I share this opinion with WH or not? I am not sure whether it is a good move strategically.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Considering his actions, I would not share any of this info with him. Don't show your cards.

Move as soon as possible to the country where you have the advantage, file for divorce under the best circumstances for you. Moving will also help you avoid triggers and plan B will be much easier.

If you want to reconcile, it will have to be on your terms (and only if he is truly repentant, hat in hand!). But to be honest, after all you've told us about him, I doubt he is willing to step up and implement extraordinary precautions.

Last edited by goody2shoes; 03/23/17 08:41 AM.
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No! If you do, that may be construed as breaching the attorney client privilege and then your WH may be allowed access to more than just this about your case attorney's file. Different countries have different laws in this regard. Ask the attorney before giving him any communications between you and the attorney.

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Thank you Goody2Shoes and Brits Brat. I will keep it to myself then. I am really looking forward to being able to move and to have the security of legal protection.

Yes, I have done a LOT of reading about EPs and I really don't see that there would be any way for us to move forward unless we were joined at the hip. I would have to literally have a desk in the same office as him, sit in on all his meetings and keep his (non-smart!) phone in front of me all the time in order to feel any sense of security in this relationship. And that's in addition to spending all our non-working hours together. I wouldn't say the chances of that happening are absolute zero (i'm a pretty useful person to have around from a work perspective), but pretty close....



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I think he believes this is all a power game at the moment (I guess it is actually). When we had our plan A weekend, he did agree for me to hold his phones the entire time, taking them into the bathroom with me, so that he wouldn't be alone with them - so there was a glimpse of understanding of what it would take for me to feel secure. We ended up having a really nice time. But that was just for one weekend - and it took me being extremely forceful about refusing to leave the house unless his phones were already in my handbag for that to happen. And I can't live my life having to impose things on him like that. It is exhausting.

I think he is still 100% sure that he will be able to manipulate his way back to having his cake and eating it. I don't think the idea that he might not "win" in this situation has crossed his mind at all. I feel like I am battling not only the typical wayward fog, but also the caveman fog, the god-complex fog, etc. However, I suspect that when he moves to his new job and finds himself sleeping on his cousin's couch at age 40, while his wife and children start a new life in another country and he has to deal with questions from everyone about where we are, his might start to introspect a little bit.

Although in my heart of hearts, what I really think will happen is that he go on a womanising binge over the next 6 months or so (just because he thinks he CAN), block out any thoughts that he could possibly have been at fault, then get some 22 year old pregnant and have a nervous breakdown about what he has done with his life.....that might be the rock bottom that would cause him to really turn around. But after having been through the OC thing already, I don't think I would be willing to deal with that nightmare a second time.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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You sound like an incredibly strong person. At some point WH is going to realise that you are his rock and that he has lost the most important thing he ever had. Unfortunately that moment of realisation is going to come to him only after you have gone for ever. Until then he will think he can play you.

A 6 month binge sounds pretty familiar too.


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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he believes this is all a power game at the moment (I guess it is actually). When we had our plan A weekend, he did agree for me to hold his phones the entire time, taking them into the bathroom with me, so that he wouldn't be alone with them - so there was a glimpse of understanding of what it would take for me to feel secure. We ended up having a really nice time. But that was just for one weekend - and it took me being extremely forceful about refusing to leave the house unless his phones were already in my handbag for that to happen. And I can't live my life having to impose things on him like that. It is exhausting.

There have been couples who have done this, lived a life of extra extraordinary precautions due to serial cheating, in order for their marriage to survive. So it can be done, IF the serial cheater is 110% on board which yours is not and probably never will be. However, I also can personally not imagine living life this.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he is still 100% sure that he will be able to manipulate his way back to having his cake and eating it. I don't think the idea that he might not "win" in this situation has crossed his mind at all. I feel like I am battling not only the typical wayward fog, but also the caveman fog, the god-complex fog, etc. However, I suspect that when he moves to his new job and finds himself sleeping on his cousin's couch at age 40, while his wife and children start a new life in another country and he has to deal with questions from everyone about where we are, his might start to introspect a little bit.

Although in my heart of hearts, what I really think will happen is that he go on a womanising binge over the next 6 months or so (just because he thinks he CAN), block out any thoughts that he could possibly have been at fault, then get some 22 year old pregnant and have a nervous breakdown about what he has done with his life.....that might be the rock bottom that would cause him to really turn around. But after having been through the OC thing already, I don't think I would be willing to deal with that nightmare a second time.

Speculating as to what he is or is not thinking now or in the future, or speculating over what might or might not make him hit rock bottom and come to his senses, is really not good for you. In Plan B you should not be concerned about his thoughts or whether he is hitting rock bottom or not.

The reality is that he has lived an entire life of brazen infidelity (even an OC with multiple affairs after that). His family seems to think he is entitled to that lifestyle. I really don't see anything making him hit rock bottom. The wayward mentality is so ingrained in him, and he seems to feel completely entitled to live as he has been, I don't see there being some kind of wake up call from that. Be prepared mentally and operate as if he will NEVER hit rock bottom or take responsibility for his lifestyle or regret his decisions or even regret losing you.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Since I didn't really do a plan A (well, one weekend), because WH refused to finish his affair after exposure and was quite aggressive, I wonder whether it might help remind him of what we
have built together.

I've been trying to read through your thread today, so if this was addressed later, sorry to be covering it again.

A "stellar" Plan A does not help in the case of a serial cheater. A serial cheater does not cheat because of unmet needs or a bad marriage.

They cheat because they like to get their ENs met outside of the marriage (often by many people) and they do not care that it hurts their BS.

When I learned of my WxH's first affair/s, we came to MB and recovered (really, a false recovery) but we went through the online program and our M was probably the best it had been besides the honeymoon period. Yet he cheated, again. Dr Harley told me that he had read through our questionnaires, etc, and my WxH had no complaints about our M and his ENs were being met.

So please do not beat yourself up that you could have done x, y or z to change this situation. The only thing that could have helped was if your WH had zero opportunity to lead a SSL and interact with women, basically.

I'm sure I will have more to add...

Last edited by SusieQ; 03/23/17 06:59 PM.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He called our nanny a couple of days ago asking to speak to the kids just before dinner, but I asked her to tell him no. I don't mind him seeing them when he is in the country but only outside the house where he can't attempt to disrupt the calm we have worked hard to establish without him.

It might be wise to allow him a window of time to speak to the kids every day. It would be a good question for your lawyer. Here in the US, parents are basically discouraged from blocking access to the kids via phone calls/texting etc.


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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My question is, should I share this opinion with WH or not?

You realize that you would not be communicating anything to your WH besides issues related to visitation or finances that are absolutely unavoidable?

For instance, if he was to break into the house again and start yelling at you about the OW, do not discuss her, the D, EPs or anything like that with him anymore. Go to your bedroom and shut the door. In fact since we are discussing it, do you have a plan for what you will do if he breaks in again? Are the locks changed?



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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he believes this is all a power game at the moment (I guess it is actually). When we had our plan A weekend, he did agree for me to hold his phones the entire time, taking them into the bathroom with me, so that he wouldn't be alone with them - so there was a glimpse of understanding of what it would take for me to feel secure. We ended up having a really nice time. But that was just for one weekend - and it took me being extremely forceful about refusing to leave the house unless his phones were already in my handbag for that to happen. And I can't live my life having to impose things on him like that. It is exhausting.

I don't think there is a power trip happening. He is incredibly entitled, with a wayward mentality that is so deeply entrenched because he has gotten away with it for so long that it is going to be hard to turn this around, chalkncheese.

Did anybody link the serial cheater threads for you? I can't remember.

I ask because I'm not getting the sense that you realize how much of an uphill battle recovering with this type of cheater will be. Even if he realizes that he wants you and his family more than his SSL and promises everything under the sun to make you happy, serial cheats are notorious for backsliding into bad habits (SSL, IB, flirting, etc) over time.

He would have to agree to a job where he is basically at home working with you and has no opportunity for a SSL or affair to exist...you spend all of your free time together, he does not so much as run errands without you, etc. That's what recovery for you will come down to.



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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
However, I suspect that when he moves to his new job and finds himself sleeping on his cousin's couch at age 40, while his wife and children start a new life in another country and he has to deal with questions from everyone about where we are, his might start to introspect a little bit.

My WxH was on his parents' couch and basically devastated and told my IM that it was "killing him" to not be able to speak to me. A few weeks later he had moved on to OW4 and with a very short time after that, moved in with her.

So...I would not hold out too much hope that this will help your situation. With a first-time cheater, yes. Serial cheater who has never not cheated, no.



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Given your WH's history of cheating the entire marriage and having an enabling family who is basically attacking you (this was my WxH as well), I have to tell you...I think divorce and personal recovery would be the definition of success for this situation.

Not every marriage is meant to be saved.

I'm sorry frown




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As SusieQ recommended Serial Cheaters

There are some radio clips at the end of the thread.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by living_well
You sound like an incredibly strong person. At some point WH is going to realise that you are his rock and that he has lost the most important thing he ever had. Unfortunately that moment of realisation is going to come to him only after you have gone for ever. Until then he will think he can play you.

A 6 month binge sounds pretty familiar too.

Thanks Living Well. I guess that is one of the few things (strength) I can thank WH for!! Along with the beautiful kids.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Quote
Speculating as to what he is or is not thinking now or in the future, or speculating over what might or might not make him hit rock bottom and come to his senses, is really not good for you. In Plan B you should not be concerned about his thoughts or whether he is hitting rock bottom or not.

Thank you for the reality check Unwritten. It is so good for me to hear this stuff so that my wishful thinking doesn't get the best of me.

Quote
Be prepared mentally and operate as if he will NEVER hit rock bottom or take responsibility for his lifestyle or regret his decisions or even regret losing you.

I think I will print this sentence out and stick it to the wall behind my desk. It's hard to change a habit of loving someone for so long, but I really do understand that it is better for me and the kids to move on with a separate life.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Quote
My WxH was on his parents' couch and basically devastated and told my IM that it was "killing him" to not be able to speak to me. A few weeks later he had moved on to OW4 and with a very short time after that, moved in with her.

Thank you for your valuable input SusieQ. I have actually been reading your recovery thread and I wondered what happened because I could see that there were some parallels with my WH. I saw that your signature says divorced but the recovery thread stopped some way before that point.

I guess I should just be thankful that this has all come to a head at a time when we can quite easily move to different countries and I have a good job so can support myself and the kids with no trouble. The really big worry for me about the future (pre-crisis) was that in order to move with my husband to his new job I would have had to give up my job, and that would have left me in a really vulnerable position with no independent income in a foreign country where I don't speak the language that well, surrounded by people who share my husband's sense of entitlement to philandering. To be honest, it is a bit of a relief to feel like there is a different future to look forward to now.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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