Marriage Builders®
Posted By: chalkncheese Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/14/17 11:56 PM
I have been reading this site like crazy for weeks now, after having a series of D-days in 2016 which WH somehow explained his way out of, culminating in a final one at the end of our family holiday in January. It was then that I shook myself out of denial and started thinking properly. I collected evidence (including pics of genitals he sent - nice) and went all out on exposure this evening. But he is now so mad I am scared - and I don't know where to go from here. He has taken my phone, he comandeered my computer, changed all my email passwords, and spent literally hours locked in my study trying to delete the evidence I had found. He says he can't stand to see my face. We live in a foreign country so I am totally alone here, thousands of miles from any support from family or friends, and I don't know how to proceed with Plan A from here. How long can exposure anger last? How do you transition to trying to be a great partner from this? I would appreciate any advice anyone can give. The posts on this forum are such an amazing support and source of advice.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 12:00 AM
We have been together for 10 years, married for 8. Four children (three boys 7, 6 and 5, one of whom is from a previous affair, and a baby girl of 8 months). I actually think he has never been faithful for any period during our entire relationship. So not sure whether there is anything to salvage in our marriage. But he is an amazing father and I hate the idea that our kids would grow up not living with the father they love so much.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 12:07 AM
Hello C/C, welcome to Marriage Builders. If you are scared, you should leave and go to a safe place with your children. I would also make plans to get back to your home country with your family.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 12:20 AM
Thank you for the quick response Melody Lane. We are in a country where I need my husband's permission to take the children across the border, which makes the situation difficult. I think i will be able to organise to move with them by June, but I am not sure what to do right now. Is there any experience on this forum of how long exposure anger lasts?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thank you for the quick response Melody Lane. We are in a country where I need my husband's permission to take the children across the border, which makes the situation difficult. I think i will be able to organise to move with them by June, but I am not sure what to do right now. Is there any experience on this forum of how long exposure anger lasts?

It can last for 1 hour to 2 weeks. You need to get away from him.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 05:36 AM
Should i be trying to be calm and loving during this time? He is being extremely nasty and cruel and it is very hard to experience that.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 06:21 AM
I took the decision to not expose him at work, even though the affair is at work with a subordinate of his. He is the boss of a country office so there is no one above him in the country that I could alert. Is that a mistake? I am worried that because most of the people I have exposed to are not in the same country with us that there will not be sufficient pressure on him to end the affair. However, he has already signed a contract for a new job in a different country that starts at the beginning of May, so we are supposed to be leaving anyway. In the new country, he will definitely not be able to see the OW anymore. And since the new job is with the same company, I was worried that exposure might actually jeopardise this new job, which would be shooting myself in the foot somewhat. Did I make the right decision?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 08:40 AM
Is the OW married? Who on the OW's side have you exposed to? Doesn't your WH have an HR department or a boss?
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 08:57 AM
You may have to lay low and convince him, that you will be staying in your own country for some time with the children untill he is settled in his new job.

If you were to take your children back to your home country now (even if he would let you) and not bring them back to their father, it might well be considered international child abduction ans you would stand the chance of losing them.

You must get legal help, for example via your parents who could consult a lawyer, specializing in international family law. To find out what your rights and possibilities are. And you must never again put yourself and the children in a position where you illoyal husband has all the power. He is a serial cheater from what you tell us and recovery will be very difficult even in a "normal" situation.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 11:02 AM
Hi BrainHurts,

No, she is not married. She is a single mother. I have exposed to her facebook friends list through private message and I am just going through the process of receiving a fair few abusive comments back. I guess it is to be expected. A couple of the people on there work with them both. There is a local HR department for his office, but they report to him. So I would be exposing him to his subordinates and I am not sure if that would be effective in achieving the outcome of stopping the affair, especially since he has already told his whole staff that he is moving countries.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 11:14 AM
Thank you Happy Heart. Yes, the border crossing rule is specifically to prevent child abduction....which I guess is a good thing. I think, rationally, I will not be able to make a move until he leaves the country. So that will be the start of Plan B. It means a two-month long Plan A, which is going to be hard but I will try to be strong. The only other option is to try to throw him out before that, but I think that might be counter productive if the affair is not finished. I would just be giving him space to have fun.
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 12:37 PM
Don't report him locally, report him at the corporate love. From what you've described about him being company head in-country, I can tell he works for a large corporation who will likely have an Ethics & Compliance Helpline. You can go to the company's website on the internet and look for it. Call the number and tell them he is having an affair with a subordinate. Many companies will look the other way at affairs but they will not look the other way if it is a supervisor-subordinate relationship because that creates all kinds of issues for them.
Posted By: WierdSituation Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 12:41 PM
Can you post the abusive comments you got back? People may also help with how to respond. My understanding is that it should be exposed at work no matter what. I would expose to his bosses in the headquarters, people who gave him the new job, people in the workplace in the country where the new job is. This will have the best effect. Do not avoid doing it because of your fear. Shine the light on him.

Do not worry him losing a job. Worry about losing you marriage. Jobs will come and they are plenty. Your marriage is only one and it will not come back.

Even if he moves to another country he still can see OW - plenty of opportunities. The world has become small. He can even visit her under the shadow of business trips. Too easy to do. I am in the same situation - international affair from my WW. The affair is kept simmering. So, please destroy the affair with maximum power and no remorse.
Posted By: WierdSituation Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 12:43 PM
Report to all country managers and their super bosses all over the world also. Maximum effect.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by WierdSituation
Can you post the abusive comments you got back? People may also help with how to respond.
You don't need to respond to abusive comments. We don't need to see them here. This could be very upsetting for people contemplating exposure.

Some people will support you, and some will support OW. That is to be expected. Ignore any comments that are abusive.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 01:01 PM
Thank you SugarCane. Yes, I just decided not to respond. I would not gain anything apart from degrading myself by starting (or reacting) to fights with friends of the OW. Of course it is reasonable and predictable that her friends would support her, at least in front of me. The purpose of exposure was not to get people to take my side but just to bring the whole thing out in the open so that they cannot hide anymore.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 02:29 PM
It seems like the facebook exposure actually got all around their office anyway. So I think the objective was achieved. Exposure is not for the feint hearted - a very scary process - but I can see that it was essential if there is to be any future at all.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 02:44 PM
WH has been sending me extremely angry and abusive messages all day - he is at work now - and I am scared of him when he is angry. Should I lock him out of the house? But what happens then? I guess I could tell him he can send an intermediary to pick up anything he needs. I do not want any violence in front of our children. Also, should I respond to his angry remarks in any way (calm, reasonable) or just not respond at all and wait for it to blow over?

It is really hurtful that he is being so nasty. He is telling me he regrets the day he met me, etc. All because people now know what he has been doing. I guess in the fog he can never understand that it is not me who created this situation, but him. Any advice appreciated.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
WH has been sending me extremely angry and abusive messages all day - he is at work now - and I am scared of him when he is angry. Should I lock him out of the house? But what happens then? I guess I could tell him he can send an intermediary to pick up anything he needs. I do not want any violence in front of our children. Also, should I respond to his angry remarks in any way (calm, reasonable) or just not respond at all and wait for it to blow over?
You should lock him out and send the message, as planned.

Respond to any violence, including shouting and cursing, by calling the police.

Make contact with your embassy or consulate, and get their help with the situation you are in. At least be clear about your rights to leave the country with your children. Find out whether you can go before a judge to make that happen. It might not be true that you simply need to put up with this situation for another two months.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 03:55 PM
PS: how do you know that he won't agree to your leaving with the kids? Why would he try to keep you there?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/15/17 07:24 PM
Thank you so much for continuing to respond.

He came back to the house but was surprisingly calm, so my fears about violence were unfounded. I cannot emphasise enough how impressed I am at the effect of exposure - and how it is so right to tell people not to be scared of the anger aftermath. The exposure to OW's facebook friends was the absolute best thing to do. I would never have had the courage to do that without MB.

I think he will agree for me to leave with the children if this mood continues. I am responding to all his anger and nastiness with kindness and calm. I realise it is very difficult for anyone to continue to boil with anger when the person in front of them is not fighting back.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
Don't report him locally, report him at the corporate love. From what you've described about him being company head in-country, I can tell he works for a large corporation who will likely have an Ethics & Compliance Helpline. You can go to the company's website on the internet and look for it. Call the number and tell them he is having an affair with a subordinate. Many companies will look the other way at affairs but they will not look the other way if it is a supervisor-subordinate relationship because that creates all kinds of issues for them.
Did you do this?

Are you leaving with your children?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 02:46 AM
By virtue of my exposure to OW's facebook friends, a couple of whom were co-workers of WH and OW, the notification was forwarded round their entire company locally. WH called me screaming about receptionists and drivers all knowing everything and telling me it went viral (we live in a very small country, the capital city is like a village, everybody knows everybody), so the exposure objective was definitely achieved. I am very impressed with the power of exposure.

I am trying to sort out a rental house for the kids and I that we can move to ASAP. But realistically, I cannot take them to another country until the end of the school year on June 15 - but since my husband is due to move to another country on May 1, I think it might be the most sensible option for us to stay in our house and take his departure as the start of Plan B. Now that his initial anger at exposure seems to have subsided, the immediate worry of violence has dissipated.

I have a question about how to identify how destructive exposure has been to the affair, since it has an effect like throwing a whole deck of cards in the air. While before exposure, I had spy software on his phone, I was checking certain patterns of behaviour, I had access to all his social media accounts (previous FR) etc, and could see what was happening, but now he has removed the software, changed his passwords and has abandoned any attempt to pretend he is being honest with me. However, he is also hanging around the house like a bad smell, so I am wondering if that is either 1) a territorial thing now he is suddenly worried he might lose his family, 2) an aggressive thing to show me he is in charge or 3) a sign that he actually doesn't want to spend time with OW when it is not a secret pleasure anymore.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 03:06 AM
Dr. Harley recommends BW only to do Plan A for a maximum of 3 weeks. May-June is way too long. If he won't leave that job you need to prepare for Plan B. Will he leave that job now?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 03:27 AM
I am not sure he can. He is the director of a country office. He has signed the contract for the new job and arranged the transition for end of April. He is travelling from next week until mid-March to three different places - which takes him away from OW but also provides the opportunity for hours of romantic skype chats, so not really a good thing. I think there is a possibility that I could ask him to take leave from mid-March onwards, and perhaps move earlier. But at the moment he is not even at the point of pretending to be remorseful or entertaining negotiation about the way forward. The last thing he wrote to me by text message last night is that we should consider ourselves separated because of what i did with exposure. The exposure anger and shock is very raw, especially the embarrassment of all his work colleagues knowing, along with all other people the company has links to in this country (as a result of facebook exposure to OW's friends). I don't think it will last more than a day or so more, but I can't yet predict when I will be in a position to make a request like that.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 03:43 AM
A question: how do I stop enabling the affair if I don't currently have the power to negotiate to keep him in the house? Is there anything I can do? From what I can gather, the times they have been meeting up are either during the working day (8am to 6pm, although they don't physically work in the same office) or when he goes out to do a chore like picking up some bread from the store on a weekend. The rest of the time he was generally at home. He comes home every evening to eat dinner with the family and is just at home all weekend watching TV or doing stuff with the kids and I. Although I now understand affairees don't need loads of time together to establish and continue a relationship. I was giving myself a false sense of security in the past by thinking if my husband is at home every day from 6:30pm onwards, only going out on Friday nights with his guy friends, then he couldn't be doing anything. Now I know that with texts, flirting, and calls to establish an intimate connection, physical meetings don't have to be that frequent or long - and the rarer they are the more special I guess - and he can easily say he is going out with male friends but then leave them part way through the evening to meet her.

With this new perspective, I think the only way I could stop enabling the affair is to demand to know where he is 100% of the time and to actually be with him as much as possible. But how do I do that when I have a job, four kids, and he stomps around saying I am controlling him?!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 03:46 AM
It will take a big shift of his approach to life to accept that being married means accepting to do the things that currently feel to him like excessive control by his wife or limitations of his freedom. And I am not sure that will happen without a long, dark plan B - and even then I am not optimistic at this point.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 07:07 AM
Dr. Harley says to only take a husband back hat in hand. You will have to stay in plan A while respectfully asking him to end the affair. Be polite to him, but don't be complacent with the affair. And don't forget to expose to your children.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 07:50 AM
Thank you happyheart. That is such good advice. My mistakes in the past are all related to allowing him back without REAL change. This time i am prepared to go forward alone. I want my marriage, but not if it is not a real marriage.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 02:53 PM
You mentioned that you had a child from a previous affair. Was it your affair or his?

You also said he was a serial cheater. Can you give us a history of the infidelity in your marriage?
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
But at the moment he is not even at the point of pretending to be remorseful or entertaining negotiation about the way forward. The last thing he wrote to me by text message last night is that we should consider ourselves separated because of what i did with exposure.
You should not be planning to stay in Plan A until April. Dr Harley does not recommend that women put up with affairs that do not end almost immediately. He points out that this has a deleterious effect on their physical and mental health. You are not required to find inner the resources to put up with this just because you live in a foreign country. You need to find a way out of this.

He wrote that you should consider yourselves separated. Can you take him at his word, and ask him to move out?

You did not address my point about asking your embassy or consulate for advice.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he will agree for me to leave with the children if this mood continues.
And you can do this, also. Ask him to give you legal permission to leave with the kids.

We should not be encouraging you to stay with a man who blatantly conducts an affair in front of your face. You are not a prisoner in the marriage, and you need to bring this situation to an end.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/16/17 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he will agree for me to leave with the children if this mood continues.
And you can do this, also. Ask him to give you legal permission to leave with the kids.

We should not be encouraging you to stay with a man who blatantly conducts an affair in front of your face. You are not a prisoner in the marriage, and you need to bring this situation to an end.
I agree. As I said earlier Dr. Harley only recommends a maximum of 3 weeks of Plan A for BWs. You need to get him to let you take the kids and leave if he won't quit that job.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 05:30 AM
The child was from another previous affair of his. We brought him to live with us so that he could be raised with his two brothers (one older, one younger) when he was 3 years old.

He has basically been cheating on me the entire time we have been together. But he lies about everything so I only know the things I have found evidence for.

Initially, he used to say it was because he was struggling to come to terms with giving up his single life to become married; then when he got the other woman pregnant, it was because he was scared on embarking on a life with me since we are from different countries; then it was because I was angry and in pain and obviously not being fun around the house; then it was because we brought his other son to live with us and I was "too good" as a partner which made him feel bad about himself while I was also in pain and struggling with the emotions so still not fun to be around; then i had three miscarriages followed by a successful pregnancy so I was tired, gained weight, could not go out with him etc so he started socialising totally independently of me; these days the reasons seem to be a combination of 1) me being hurt and angry for all the pain he has caused me, which he says he can't stand to see in my face 2) me not respecting him as a "man" and 3) this idea of him being a "bad guy" and me being a "good guy" because the entire world can see that I am raising a child that looks nothing like me but exactly like my husband........
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 06:04 AM
I will try to do that. I am worried already that the dramatic impact of exposure is dissipating so quickly and if i don't try to move things to resolution nothing will ever get resolved.

There is no embassy in the country. It is in the neighboring country. But i will contact them now and find out about my rights.

He has now totally calmed down from the exposure anger and says he loves me and just wants to move on (while also saying he is incredibly angry about what I have done in a cold anger way) - but he is saying that while not having done anything concrete AT ALL to make sure the affair is over. He says the exposure killed it and that the OW has told him to leave her alone so i don't need to worry. I keep on pushing saying "it is not over until the opportunity is removed. You are like an alcoholic working in a bar trusting yourself to not drink". But every time i ask him to do specific things like change his phone numbers, take leave or work from home, etc, he immediately comes up with some reason why that is impossible, which causes an argument even though I am really trying to avoid AOs, DJs and be a calm as possible.

His resistance to doing anything at all to fix this situation - even after exposure - shows me he doesn't have any remorse at all. It is making me feel so hopeless. He is also extremely resistant to revealing any information about the affair, demanding that i delete all evidence from my computer ("why do you want to keep those things so you can look at them every day and hurt yourself?) and saying he thinks allowing me to ask questions is not right because I will only get more hurt.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 06:11 AM
He is doing the absolute bare minimum he thinks he can do to pacify me "so that we can just move on". So that leaves me feeling completely helpless. He is putting me in a situation where i have to constantly make demands, follow up, ask what progress has been made on xxx and yyy, and then he responds with hostility.

I think he is trying to manipulate me and the situation so that he avoids any sort of accountability. And I don't know how to respond to that in a way that changes our interactions with each other permanently. Thank you so much for all this really valuable advice. I am in a different time zone, so I know there is a delay, but I am finding such strength in reading others' experiences.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 07:16 AM
He is totally focused on getting me to delete the pictures and videos I found on his phone. As if by deleting my them, the affair would cease to exist. Have you seen that kind of behaviour before? I feel that I need to keep evidence so that I have a reality check to guard against him persuading me that everything is fine. He is very charming and persuasive so I have to make a really conscious effort all the time to tell my self "it really is as bad as you think it is. Don't forget that!!"
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 07:21 AM
Save your evidence somewhere he can't get to it. Can you do that?

Did you ask him to leave?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 07:23 AM
Read this.
Please Explain Gaslighting
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 07:49 AM
Hi Brain Hurts,

I didn't ask him to leave after he calmed down from the hot anger. Instead, I organised a weekend away for us alone without the kids doing fun stuff we haven't done in years. We are supposed to leave in a few hours. I have arranged for the kids to stay with a friend of theirs until Sunday. Was that the right thing to do? I will do my best to be a great partner. We get on well, but I feel as though he just takes that as a sign that I have tacitly agreed to ignore everything and move forward. So is it constructive?

I have saved the evidence in multiple places. He got into my computer on exposure day because I was silly enough to let him take my phone - and I hadn't put a password on it. I now changed all my passwords for computer, email and phone so even if he has my phone and computer he wouldn't be able to get in to destroy evidence. I also sent it to one of his best friends from childhood and told his family about the evidence.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 07:50 AM
This gaslighting explanation makes SO much sense!! Thank you. It is so hard to keep focused on what I know is true when someone is shifting the boundaries all the time. Thank you for the insight!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 07:52 AM
Also, what I am learning is that when your partner is having an affair you WANT to believe the best, you really want to believe that it doesn't mean anything, that everything is over, etc etc. So you are fighting against your desire to be told reassuring information as well as his desire for you to believe his version of the story. So I am fighting against both myself and him and it is exhausting. I have been reading abrrba's thread and taking comfort that he is also experiencing some of the same stuff with his wife.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Also, what I am learning is that when your partner is having an affair you WANT to believe the best, you really want to believe that it doesn't mean anything, that everything is over, etc etc. So you are fighting against your desire to be told reassuring information as well as his desire for you to believe his version of the story. So I am fighting against both myself and him and it is exhausting. I have been reading abrrba's thread and taking comfort that he is also experiencing some of the same stuff with his wife.
Don't believe a waywards words because they are all liars. Only believe their actions. Is your WH willing to end the affair and move away from the OW now? If he refuses to do this you should go into Plan B now.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 09:06 AM
My problem is he makes some concessions but not enough. Then he tells me I am not recognising all the efforts he is making.

Plan B now would mean throwing him out and us staying here in the family house. Moving country will take more time because I will have to register the kids with a new school and sign a contract on a house - but school fees are already paid up until the end of the year in mid-June.

I guess if I start Plan B now, it might actually be more effective since it will be difficult to come back from a separation where we are in two different countries 5 hours flight apart (which is what would happen if i only started Plan B when he moves to his new job).

I have asked him to cancel his three planned work trips and he says he can't. I have also asked him to work from home, only going to scheduled meetings with people after telling me who they are, what the meeting is for and providing evidence to show it is real, until the end of his notice period. He also says that is not feasible but will "try to be at home as much as possible". I don't think that is good enough. He has always been at home a fair amount and STILL CHEATING. So it is just as good as doing nothing as far as I am concerned.

He has just called me now to say he has a surprise for me, he just wants me to relax and he will be home soon. I know it is a charm offensive to get me to take off the pressure. Or, less cynically, he really believes if he is super nice we can just forget about it and go back to normal
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 09:15 AM
If he doesn't agree to cancel his work trips, should I go with him (i also have a job so that would be difficult)? Or should I just go straight to plan B and give up on the persuasion to quit the job, since it is clearly not working.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 10:10 AM
He keeps saying he is willing to work on the marriage but I have to be reasonable. He wants to negotiate everything, tries to blame it on cultural differences, tells me there is no way a man can live like that, he will go insane, etc.

How can I do plan A when what he is telling me all the time is that he wants me to give him freedom? Being the best partner apparently means giving him freedom to do what he wants. I guess this is textbook stuff, isn't it?
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 11:47 AM
Plan A is not plan doormat. Plan A is being your best self, while insisting on conditions that make recovery possible. Certain conditions are nonnegotiable.

He will be able to live like that (just like millions of other men) and most certainly not go insane. You can tell him that if he really goes insane, you might reconsider negotiating.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 11:50 AM
Plan B needs preparation. Use the time of plan A to prepare for plan B.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
How can I do plan A when what he is telling me all the time is that he wants me to give him freedom? Being the best partner apparently means giving him freedom to do what he wants. I guess this is textbook stuff, isn't it?
I'm not sure you are reading my posts. You should not be doing Plan A any more.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/17/17 01:20 PM


chalkncheese, Plan A is inappropriate, you should be going into Plan B until he leaves that job and is serious about recovery. He is obviously not serious.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/20/17 12:37 AM
Thank you very much for your advice. I will try to move into plan B today or tomorrow.

We went away for the weekend and he showed more willingness to change, but not enough. So I will move to no contact.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/20/17 07:12 AM
Asking my husband to leave has created a situation. He says he will not go. He has taken my phone again and shut himself in my study.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/20/17 01:29 PM
Now he has left the house but he has taken all of the keys, my car keys, my phone, and the cable for my desktop computer. I had done some preparation for Plan B already, so I have now locked up our gate with a chain and padlock so that he can't come back in, but I am anxious about what is going to unfold.

Does Plan B normally start with confrontataions like this?
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/20/17 01:33 PM
I don't feel I have enough insight to give the best advice.

The amount of control alarms me. Are you safe?

In your country, does he have the right to take your car keys and phone, or can you ask the law/police for help?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/20/17 01:40 PM
I think I am safe. The gate is locked and we have a security company so I can press the panic button if there is a problem. I don't think the police would be much help with the phone and car keys. But I would call them if there was any shouting or violence.

He took my phone after the exposure too, but he brought it back. I am hoping he will do that again.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/20/17 01:43 PM
Can you at least file a complaint? Did you call the nearest embassy for help?
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/20/17 01:59 PM
If you get your keys back, have a duplicate made. And it is probably wise to buy a burner phone.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/20/17 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Does Plan B normally start with confrontataions like this?
Does that matter?

Call the police, and contact your embassy, for heavens sake.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 07:40 AM
Thank you for the advice. I have now spoken to the embassy. They were a bit unsure how to help, given that the law prevents me from crossing the border, but they have agreed to circulate my and my children's names to the immigration officials at the border and alert the border police so that if I come to the border urgently needing to cross without permission of my husband, they might be able to help me.

He has now returned the car keys, house keys, my phone and my computer cable. I was not able to keep him out of the house last night so he broke in. But because I did not get angry, I think he is realising that this is no joke and he can't manipulate the situation. He is coming to fetch all of the bags of his clothes at 11am.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 11:21 AM
I'm sorry to read what you are going through. I went through something like this too, it isn't easy. Do you have a mother, brother or sister that can come and stay with you until you are ready to leave for good? He will not be able to manipulate the situation as easily if you have protection from another adult.

Oh and guard your children's passports and important documents as if your life depended on them. Put them somewhere really safe, preferably outside the house.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 02:19 PM
Thanks Living Well. That's good advice - I have now hidden the passports and important documents just in case.

I packed up all his stuff into suitcases this morning. He said he would come and collect them at 11am. He didn't. Then he said he would come by 1pm, didn't turn up, and then called to say he won't now be available until 5pm. I suspect he just wants to leave it late because he thinks he can get back into the house if he comes at 5pm. So I have moved them out onto the road in the rain.

I am not mad, but I feel that this behaviour really exemplifies his disrespect for me: he can move mountains to find time for dates with OW, but can't even take 10 mins out of his work day to collect his stuff when my time is involved. So his suitcases are getting really wet now.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 02:23 PM
I also spoke to the children's school to make them aware of the situation, and to let them know that I have told the children what is going on in case there are any tears at school. The school said they will implement my wishes that the children are not allowed to leave with WH, but they were worried that he might get a court order to enable him to. We are in an African country and therefore a father's rights over their children are held in high regard. To protect myself, I am now going to ask our embassy to give me written confirmation of my conversations with them so that if I was called to court I can demonstrate that I raised my concerns about the children first. Any other ideas about how I can protect the children?
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 02:41 PM
Yes, great idea to alert the school.

Best way to protect your children is to tell them the truth about what is going on. Have you done that? Every one of them except your baby needs to know what your husband has done. Keep it factual. Do not be surprised at how much they have already guessed, children are big snoopers.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 03:22 PM
Yes, i have told them. I said this: "Papa has a girlfriend and that is not allowed when you are married. I have packed up his stuff because he has not agreed to break up with his girlfriend. I love him and I want him to come back home, but he can't be at home when he still has a girlfriend because that hurts me very much."
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 03:24 PM
But he is outside in the garage right now asking the kids to choose between me and him. I am really glad I spoke to them first and emphasised how we all love him, and want him to come home to us, but that he can't do that when he still has a girlfriend because that will make me cry every day.

However, what do I do when he is telling the kids that I am telling lies about him? He is telling them he doesn't have a girlfriend. Sigh. They are so small (7, 6 and 5) so I guess they won't understand. But if I continue to remind them that I love him and I want him to come home then maybe they will get it.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 03:46 PM
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2730432
Document!
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
However, what do I do when he is telling the kids that I am telling lies about him? He is telling them he doesn't have a girlfriend. Sigh. They are so small (7, 6 and 5) so I guess they won't understand. But if I continue to remind them that I love him and I want him to come home then maybe they will get it.


So glad you told the children. They understand more than you think. If they ask you questions, answer them honestly. Otherwise let them process in peace.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 04:49 PM
Thank you Goody2Shoes - I will start documenting right now! I am so grateful for all this advice. I wouldn't know what to do without being guided like this.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 04:51 PM
Thank you Living Well. Yes, I am also really glad to have told the kids. I was really reluctant about it at first - there seems to be so much bias in society about giving children information - but I was surprised how matter-of-fact they were. And it made it so much easier to update them with developments when he moved out of the house just now and came to get his clothes. If I hadn't explained everything to them first, he would have had complete power over the situation and would have been able to manipulate them into thinking I am throwing him out - rather than him choosing to leave his family by virtue of breaking his marriage vows.
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 04:55 PM
If your children are that young, their schooling will not be affected by moving back to your base country immediately. I recently retired from a very senior position in a large oil and gas company who had country heads like you describe as being your husband's position. I also know that for your husband's company to have country heads who are expats that he works for a very large entity, as well, which means they have and Ethics & Compliance Office and an Ethics & Compliance Helpline to who you can report what is going on. If they are using company time and company resources to conduct their affairs, it is a violation of the company's Code of Conduct and it will be stopped. Also, if you contact Human Resources in the corporate headquarters and tell them what is going on, I strongly suspect they will repatriate you very quickly without any need to worry about leaving the country. These large corporations have very good relations with the local governments and will step in if your husband tries to pull something stupid.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/21/17 06:57 PM
Thanks Brits Brat, we are from two different countries with two different languages (English and French) and we work in development rather than private sector. My husband was recruited locally to the position in the country we live in now, which is foreign to both of us, and therefore does not have a repatriation package. It is very complicated actually.

I work across the border in the neighbouring country and it would be most practical for me to move the children there now that we have moved into Plan B. If I moved them back to my home country, I would not have a job to be able to support them or even to pay for plane tickets. And I am quite daunted by the idea of being single with four kids and not being able to afford house help (which is one of the benefits of living in a developing country).

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/22/17 05:28 AM
My husband came to collect all his clothes that I had packed yesterday evening. He spent an hour or so with the kids in the garage giving them his version of events, but then left quietly. I guess I am now fully in Plan B. I gave him a hard copy of the plan B letter, explaining that I love him and want him to come home if he can stop his affair and commit to a lifestyle where we eliminate risks of future cheating, but he refused to take it (I sent it by email to, to both him and his OW, so I know he has a copy though). He also made a big show of calling his parents as he was walking out the door, telling them angrily how unreasonable I am, how I am making demands he can't accept as a man, how he has apologised but I am still throwing him out, how I am making him sleep outside "like a dog" etc. I suspect his family don't agree with my course of action anymore, despite being supportive of me initially. They are firmly of the belief that a "man" should have his freedoms. But all in all, I am relieved at the calmness that has come back to our house. The kids and I have decided to pray for God to open Papa's eyes so that he changes his mind and comes back to us in addition to saying grace every mealtime. I think that helps them keep in mind that it is him that needs to change, not me.

I am really sad now, I guess I am starting my own withdrawal, but I know it is the right thing to do because he would never change if I continued to enable him. He still might not change now, but at least there is a chance.

I have also been contacted by the best friend of OW, one of the people I exposed to through facebook, threatening to make a complaint that my husband used his position at work to get sexual favours. Should I do anything about that message? My instinct is just to ignore it, but take it as a sign that exposure is having the desired effect in destabilising the OW and therefore the relationship.

My worry right now is that my husband has three week-long work trips starting on Monday, so the impact of Plan B and exposure might be less since he is essentially escaping the mess here at home. I asked him to cancel them but he refused - but I guess that shows I had no option other than to continue with Plan B since he was obviously not prioritising marriage at all.

The kids seem to be taking everything really well, so I am really proud of them.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/22/17 06:46 AM
Good job. How is your support system? When you first go into Plan B it will be emotional, but it will get better especially if you're dark and don't hear any garbage from your WH. Do you have an IM?

And make sure you are documenting everything.

Also, the comment from the OW's BF about him using his position to get sexual favours could be truthful and that is all on your WH's head. If he gets a sexual harassment complaint because of his affair is one of the consequences due to his choice of having an affair.

Have you read the parallel parenting thread that is in the Plan B thread?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/22/17 07:22 AM
Hi Brain Hurts,

Support system is OK but not great. I have a couple of good friends here, but they are the wives of my husband's friends and I have noticed that other married people tend to withdraw into themselves when one couple is going through serious challenges.

I have told my family back home what is going on, but I have been a very independent person for my whole life, so I am not sure they would know how to support me emotionally if I needed it. My husband's family were initially very supportive of me, but I think they now don't agree with me throwing him out of the house, so I might have lost that support.

At least I have a job which gives me something to keep my mind occupied and I have the kids who are such a joy.

I am getting to work documenting everything now.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/22/17 07:25 AM
PS. Yes, I have an intermediary now and yes I have read the parallel parenting thread (very useful). I have told my husband that he will be able to take the kids every Saturday, liaising with the IM about a suitable place and time where the kids can meet him. But he is travelling for the next 3 weeks and said he will not see the kids. I don't know if I should push it (by asking the IM to send him a reminder message on Saturday morning) or just leave it at that.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/22/17 08:25 AM
Just leave it at that, but make sure to document that you offered for him to see the kids but that he didn't. Don't do anything extra for him. Let him deal with everything so gets the full experience of not having his family around. Another consequence of his choices to have an affair.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 04:17 AM
I am so so sad. I have lost my best friend. This is really hard.

My friends here seem to not be supportive of Plan B or of telling the children - although my family back home do.

Does anyone have any advice for getting through this real low period at the start of plan B?
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am so so sad. I have lost my best friend. This is really hard.

My friends here seem to not be supportive of Plan B or of telling the children - although my family back home do.

Does anyone have any advice for getting through this real low period at the start of plan B?

Hi CNC!
I used to live in Africa... welcome to MB.

The best thing is to keep yourself busy with things you like. Play with the kids, paint your toe nails... whatever craft or fun hobby- good moment for it.
Do not go talking to friends and family about all of this. Believe it or not- it keeps it on your mind and hurts your heart worse.
So try to stop talking about him and just go pamper yourself as much as you can.
I even made a list on my phone of ideas to do when I felt bad and couldn't think. I made a list of my favorite things to think about other than husband as well. Puppy dogs. Flowers. Rainbows. Etc. I got a lot of those pics on my phone and would look at them!!!

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 07:09 AM
Thanks a lot Elania. Yes, I will try to keep my mind off everything. I have realised that talking to other people is a bit soul destroying. They always have different opinions about what is the "best" thing to do and can't really empathise with my situation.

I have a question about a hypothetical future: if he decides to come back hat in hand but still refuses to be honest about all the things that he has done, is it possible to move forward? Does that depend on whether or not I can accept that I will never know the truth? Or is full confession an essential part of his personal commitment to creating a new marriage for the future? I have read the article and letters on the website about Just Compensation, but knowing my husband I am not sure I will ever get the truth.

Have any other MBers moved forward with recovery without 100% honesty about the affair/s?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 07:16 AM
One more question: is once a week for a day too much or too little contact between my husband and the kids? I have no idea what is an appropriate amount of contact time. In the Plan B letter I committed to one day per week, but I am now wondering if I should keep every other Saturday for me to be with the kids myself. Otherwise I only get the chore part of looking after them, not the fun days.

It is important that he feels the loss of his family and all the benefits from marriage. But the kids love their father too. Any advice appreciated.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 10:36 AM
It deprends on the age of the child.
If Saturday does not suit you designate a time/day that is suitable for you.
You do not have to give him access for an entire day abd you can arrange the conditions in a way that makes you feel the children will be safe.

If you cannot leave the country without your husbands permission, how can you be sure that he cannot take them and has them live somewhere else?
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 10:53 AM
Honesty is bedrock essential. If he is not willing to be honest, your marriage will have no chance. Considering he is a serial cheater, your chances are not the best to start with.

Is the baby old enough to be without its mother for a full day?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 12:40 PM
Thanks Happyheart. He also cannot take the children across the border without my permission, so I know he can't take them anywhere. I have alerted my embassy of the risk, and I believe this information has been communicated to the border guards, but I will check again in the morning. I have dual citizenship for the country next door to us (the only country we border), so even if he was to cross the border with the kids through faking documents, it would be into my country (even though i do not consider it my home since i have no relatives there) and I would be able to call the police.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 12:42 PM
Thank you Goody2Shoes. This is a good reminder that if there was ever a chance for him to come back, he would have to be an entirely different person really.

No, i don't think the baby is old enough to be away from me. He could see her for an hour or so, but he wouldn't be able to cope with things like changing nappies or feeding. So I was planning just to send the three boys and keep the baby with me.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 02:19 PM
Another question: I don't think my WH has told anyone that he has moved out. I think keeping this news secret means he is not feeling the pressure that his family and friends would be putting on him if they knew. Should I be communicating this news to people, as I did with exposure (although leaving the work and OW's contacts out of it)?

Also, if my family (mum, sister, brother) wants to contact him to express their outrage at his behaviour, is that recommended if we are in Plan B or should I tell them not to and just leave him alone?
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 03:11 PM
Don't avoid he topic if it comes up, but don't contact people with this purpose. Plan B is avoiding thinking of him, so you'd better spend that time painting your toenails or watching videos of baby penguins.

And for your family, by all means, if they want to tell him how they feel about it, let them. Just ask them not to share his response with you. Ask them not to talk about him at all.

Print out labels with his new address or "return to sender", so you have as little as possible trouble with his mail. Just stick a label on it and post it once a week. Or even better, have your personnel take care of that.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 03:20 PM
Since you are just starting in plan B, it is probably not watertight yet. If he slips through and you are confronted with him, don't share personal info. You don't have time to talk because the food is in the microwave/the doorbell rang/your nailpolish needs to dry and you need to take care of that. Have some answer ready, don't be tempted to engage in conversation.

Did you already change your phone-number? Did you change your e-mail? Does he still have physical access to your house if he wants?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/23/17 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I have a question about a hypothetical future: if he decides to come back hat in hand but still refuses to be honest about all the things that he has done, is it possible to move forward? Does that depend on whether or not I can accept that I will never know the truth? Or is full confession an essential part of his personal commitment to creating a new marriage for the future? I have read the article and letters on the website about Just Compensation, but knowing my husband I am not sure I will ever get the truth.

Have any other MBers moved forward with recovery without 100% honesty about the affair/s?

I don't think you understand what 'hat in hand' means. It means making a complete 100% change and being willing to do *whatever it takes* to salvage your marriage. Obviously, if he were to come back with exceptions to this, he is not 'hat in hand' at all, and he is not serious at all.

Being honest is about more than showing a commitment to the marriage too. It is about affair proofing your marriage. You are married to a serial cheater, and if he continues to withhold information from you and is not ready to commit to radical honesty, you can never know where the threats are or how to protect your marriage both from affairs of the past and threats in the present and future.

Bottom line is, if he is not willing to agree to radical honesty (and I would even require a polygraph if it is available in your country, given his serial cheating), he is not serious at all.

But then again, this is hypothetical at this point because he is showing no willingness to do any of this.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 06:25 AM
Thanks Goody2Shoes. I guess I have to work on getting him totally out of my head. I can already feel that being in Plan B has decreased my stress so much, so I know it is the right thing to do. We don't get physical mail, so that's not a problem. But I do need to get accustomed to this new reality which seems to have come about so quickly. After 10 years of cheating and stress, it is a big change to suddenly be living in calm.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 06:28 AM
Quote
Did you already change your phone-number? Did you change your e-mail? Does he still have physical access to your house if he wants?

I will change my phone number on Monday. Just have to get to the store in the neighbouring country since I am roaming. I will change my email address now - I hadn't thought of that.

He doesn't have the keys to the house anymore or the buzzer to open the gate, so he can't get in without someone letting him in. If he came here angrily trying to force his way in, we probably wouldn't be able to keep him out. Although he seems to have accepted the no contact arrangement with smses about practical issues going through the IM, so I am no longer anxious about him trying to force his way back home. He seems resigned to what has happened now.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 06:30 AM
Quote
Bottom line is, if he is not willing to agree to radical honesty (and I would even require a polygraph if it is available in your country, given his serial cheating), he is not serious at all.

Thank you unwritten. This is an important reality check. I need to lower my expectations and just focus on me and the kids. I've done everything I can. Thank you for your advice.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 07:38 AM
When I get my new phone number, should I give it to my family in law or not? Obviously, if I give it to them they could easily give it to WH. But I feel uncomfortable about preventing them from contacting me to keep in touch with the kids, especially since I am raising a child who is biologically theirs but not mine (from a previous affair of my husband's).

I am also wondering if I should establish contact with the mother of the child now that I am in plan B. We cut off contact with her when we brought the boy to live with us. But now it is a bit complicated if I am living apart from his biological father.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 09:07 AM
It really depends on the situation. Does he see you as his mother, the relationship between you and the child, the relationship with the siblings, can you handle everything, finances, your emotional wellbeing.

For a child that is integrated in a family, it would be very hard to be ripped out of that, especially if his egoistic father is the only biological parent he could realistically be going to.

I don't know about the legal measures - did you adopt him, etc. This may be a case where you would want to contact Dr. Harley for advice, although you are the one who has to make a decision you can live with.

I suspect it may also have to do with the character of the child, because a difficult temperament can lead to resentment, even in biological parents.



Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 09:50 AM
Thanks Happy Heart. Yes, he sees me as his mother and my other children as his siblings. He has lived with us since he was 3 years old. We are close and he is a confident, loving and emotionally secure little boy. But we are different races, which does make me worry for the future.

We have been trying to finalise adoption for a few years, but it was complicated by the fact that we are living in a third country that neither my husband nor I are from. We first tried to do the adoption in my country, but because we were not living there permanently, social services could not do a "surprise" visit to check on our home arrangements. We then tried to do it in our country of residence, but we found that was impossible because we do not have permanent residence here and the child is not from here. So we have now initiated the process in the child's home country, but I have no idea how long it will take and whether it is even possible to complete if I have separated from my husband in the meantime. I guess it will depend on the consent of both biological parents. I think they are unlikely to withhold it, since he is happy and thriving with his half-siblings, and I am willing to support him both emotionally and financially until adulthood.

Thank you for the suggestion to contact Dr Harley. I will do that.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 11:42 AM
My husband is already trying to send messages saying he misses me and loves me. But I think it is too soon for there to be any actual change, since I only started plan B 3 days ago. Should I just ignore these approaches? He is not showing any concrete change (not leaving his job, not doing anything to implement extraordinary precautions, showing no inclination towards radical honesty, still prioritising his job over everything else, etc) just words, which I guess shows he is just missing the cake-eating rather than anything else. Right?
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 12:23 PM
Hat in hand, repentant and willing to implement all extraordinary precautions mentioned in your plan B letter.

Since he is sending messages to you and not your IM, he didn't get the message yet.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 12:23 PM
Don't respond.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 12:46 PM
Quote
Don't respond.

Thank you! Will maintain NC.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/24/17 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My husband is already trying to send messages saying he misses me and loves me. But I think it is too soon for there to be any actual change, since I only started plan B 3 days ago. Should I just ignore these approaches? He is not showing any concrete change (not leaving his job, not doing anything to implement extraordinary precautions, showing no inclination towards radical honesty, still prioritising his job over everything else, etc) just words, which I guess shows he is just missing the cake-eating rather than anything else. Right?

It is not Plan B to receive this fogbabble. Your IM should not even be forwarding it to you. And if it did not go through your IM but to you directly, you need to find a way to close up the holes so he has no access to you.

When you hear this fogbabble it sets you back and causes you emotional damage, which is what you are trying to prevent in Plan B. Don't just ignore this talk, fill up your Plan B holes so it never gets to you in the first place.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/25/17 06:20 AM
Thank you unwritten. He sent it to my work email account, so even though I had changed my personal email, it got through. I have now asked our IT dept to bounce back emails from his address. I am already starting to see how valuable the clarity that comes with plan B is. It really helps you adjust to the fact that he would have to move mountains in order to fix this - and there is very little chance that he has that motivation.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/25/17 07:29 AM
Good job on having his emails bounced back from your work email. Are there any other holes you can think of? Be prepared that he gets a new email address to use to get through to you.

When you get your phone number changed I wouldn't give it to anyone that could give it to him. How often do your in laws try and communicate with the children? If they don't communicate with them often you could email them and ask them to communicate with you through email?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/26/17 08:57 AM
Hi Brain Hurts,

Thanks for the encouragement. The inlaws don't normally try to communicate with the kids through me. They have always spoken to them when they called my husband before now. But since that isn't an option anymore, I thought they might try to call me directly. Although that hasn't been the case so far (one week into Plan B).

I am having quite a lot of tearful moments and mood swings. Also, thinking back over all the things that have happened the past few years and reinterpreting events in light of what I now know: that my husband is a serial cheater who just does not respect marriage at all. I feel as though I am beginning to hate him. Is that a normal reaction? My entire marriage and family life has been a complete lie.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/26/17 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am having quite a lot of tearful moments and mood swings. Also, thinking back over all the things that have happened the past few years and reinterpreting events in light of what I now know: that my husband is a serial cheater who just does not respect marriage at all. I feel as though I am beginning to hate him. Is that a normal reaction? My entire marriage and family life has been a complete lie.


Completely normal and be kind to yourself. Your brain has to remap to a different reality. That means going through every memory and changing it. Very tiring and takes time but you will emerge from this feeling at peace.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/26/17 07:13 PM
Thank you for the supportive words. This site is such a help to me at the moment and I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to advise me through this process.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 11:36 AM
This morning I had a bit of a shock. My husband's girlfriend followed me into the car park of our local mall, parked behind my car, and then started shouting at me.

She was digging her finger in my chest, pushing me and then hitting my car, shouting at me all the while. She called me a "white c**t" and when I said "why are you pushing me?" she shouted "I will do MUCH worse that that" then she bent back the wing mirror of my car and walked off in a huff.

I am worried because before this incident, I had never met her and was not aware that she knew who i was and knew what my car looks like. I reported the incident to the police but I have had to travel this afternoon, so I will have to wait until I return home on Thursday to get a reference number.

Should I inform my husband of this incident? Should I do anything more than I have already done by reporting it to the police?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 12:09 PM
Good job on reporting it to the police. What did the police say? Can you get a restraining order against her?

Start carrying a VAR on you in case she does this again.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 01:33 PM
The police didn't seem very interested. But I have made an appointment to go and follow up in person on Thursday. I will press to see if I can get a restraining order because I am honestly quite scared. She seemed very unhinged.

My husband has today demanded that I take over paying rent for the house now that he is staying somewhere else. Does anyone have any advice on how to respond to this request? My instinct is just to ignore it, since his is the name on the contract and I don't see why he should suddenly be relieved of responsibility for the housing of his wife and children just because he has broken our marriage vows while I have done nothing.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The police didn't seem very interested. But I have made an appointment to go and follow up in person on Thursday. I will press to see if I can get a restraining order because I am honestly quite scared. She seemed very unhinged.

My husband has today demanded that I take over paying rent for the house now that he is staying somewhere else. Does anyone have any advice on how to respond to this request? My instinct is just to ignore it, since his is the name on the contract and I don't see why he should suddenly be relieved of responsibility for the housing of his wife and children just because he has broken our marriage vows while I have done nothing.

Definitely get a restraining order, and file charges if you can for the threat. Exercise caution when you go out and call the police if you see her, she sounds like a nutjob crazy

Do you have a lawyer yet? If so, you should let your lawyer deal with WH and/or his lawyer about paying for the house. In the US he would still have a legal obligation to pay.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 06:04 PM
I don't have a lawyer yet. But I think it is a good idea to get one. I will investigate.

I am getting so much abuse from my husband's family. They honestly blame me, rather than him. He is having to answer questions at work and they are telling me that it is all my fault because of the exposure. None of them seem to recognise the fact that all I am doing is trying to break up his affair. HE is the one who is having the affair at work!!! So surely any consequences he suffers for that are also his responsibility not mine!!

They are phoning me and shouting and shouting. I feel so down. All I have been doing is trying to fight for my marriage. It is like they all want me to just accept whatever his behaviour is and keep quiet.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 06:16 PM
Maybe they all believe that actual cheating is not that bad compared with washing your dirty linen in public.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 06:17 PM
I would love to read experiences of anyone else who had a really bad reaction from exposure but then recovered.....it would be a big help right now.....
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am getting so much abuse from my husband's family.
[..]
They are phoning me and shouting and shouting. I feel so down. All I have been doing is trying to fight for my marriage. It is like they all want me to just accept whatever his behaviour is and keep quiet.
Change your phone nr asap. Don't pick up the phone if they call you. Don't check Facebook.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 06:57 PM
You sound very level headed and like you are thinking strategically rather than giving into emotions. I want to applaud you for that as it is not easy, and most posters here struggle to do this. But it will give you the best opportunity for recovery in the long run, whether that is recovering your marriage or personal recovery.

I would Plan B WH's family at this point too. Not everyone is going to embrace exposure, but you don't need to listen to or respond to any of the negativity either.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I would love to read experiences of anyone else who had a really bad reaction from exposure but then recovered.....it would be a big help right now.....

Everyone has at least one naysayer who tells them they are wrong for doing it I'm sure.

But many people who have recovered their marriages credit exposure for their recovery.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 02/27/17 07:01 PM
THank you Goody2Shoes. I tried to change my number this morning but the company said it will take a few days to cancel my contract and start up a new one with a new sim. Will try to follow up again in the morning.

Yes, I guess just ignoring them all is the best thing.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/01/17 07:36 AM
I am really annoyed with myself. I talked to my husband after all the abuse that I have been getting from his family. We have been exchanging angry text messages and calls.

I know rationally that he is in the fog and nothing he says is real but it is so hurtful. He tried to tell me that it wasn't his girlfriend who accosted me in the mall, he claims it was her friend (she introduced herself and I have seen enough pictures to be able to recognise this person when I see them....). He keeps telling me that I am making him live outside the house "like a dog" and that I am not this "innocent little girl" I pretend to be after what I have done (the exposure). I try to tell him that breaking your marriage vows by cheating is not the same as my actions to try to break up the affair. You can't equate those two things. Fidelity is the main agreement of marriage. You do not commit to always be under the same roof, or not to embarrass your husband when you say your vows. He says fidelity is not the only marriage vow. I also vowed to protect him and by exposing him I am breaking my marriage vows.

He has turned his whole family against me with his anger. He keeps saying he is making appointments with the lawyer and he wants to divorce. I say you don't have any grounds for divorce since i have not broken my vows. You can't just decide to get rid of your wife because she tries to prevent you from maintaining an affair.....marriage is not a game. You can't just decide to finish it and it magically disappears.

But really he just thinks he can win back control of the situation by getting an external person to tell me I am wrong. He believes that he is so persuasive that he can convince a lawyer, counsellor, anyone external, that I am completely irrational and therefore I must let him back in the house. I keep telling him, you are not married to those people so the only person you have to convince is me. THe only person with the power to let you back in your house is your wife. And I will only agree to that if you accept to implement extraordinary precautions. He then says "I agree to all those things". But he hasn't actually DONE anything, so I know it is all lies and manipulation. He always does that. Pretends to agree because he knows he can manipulate his way out of actually doing the thing when it comes down to it.

That is one of the things that has made me so resolute that I will not accept him back in the house because I know how he acts when I want to look at his phone. He says "you can look at it anytime" while holding it out of my reach with his arm and deleting everything in front of me. Saying one thing and doing totally the opposite. That is how he conducts his life.

Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to document it all. And try to convince myself that I can keep ignoring this fogbabble.

Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/01/17 10:12 AM
Why do you take his calls? Get yourself a new phone nr. today, give your nr to all relevant contacts (your work, family and IM) and DON'T turn on your phone with our current nr. again. Don't respond to fog-babble.

You just got out of a burning house, don't go back inside. You will get severely burnt.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/01/17 10:16 AM
Why did you break Plan B to talk to him? All he did was try to gaslight you and all the healing you did is back to square one?

What are you going to do to avoid breaking Plan B again?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/01/17 12:33 PM
Thank you Goody2Shoes and Brain Hurts. It was because of the girlfriend accosting me and threatening me. It really unsettled me - and I guess I just (stupidly) thought that he might have some negative opinion of her for behaving like that. And then at the same time his family were calling and shouting at me so much because he had called them to say that I had got him sacked. They consider him to be the only breadwinner of the family and so perceive the exposure to his workplace (even though I did not do it directly) as me attacking their financial stability. They fail to acknowledge that it is actually ME who sends them money every month from the salary that I EARN, so attacking me is attacking their financial stability. But reason doesn't seem to help.

I have cancelled my phone number now and get my new contract in the morning. I was doing so well with plan B frown. But I am restarting right now. He is going away for a conference tomorrow for 10 days, so that makes it easier.

Thank you for putting me back on track.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/01/17 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to document it all. And try to convince myself that I can keep ignoring this fogbabble.
You don't need to ignore it, you need to implement plan B, so you don't hear it.

Can you update on how you are going to repair the gaping holes in your plan B? It helps if you write it here, so we can keep you accountable. We are in your corner and don't want you to get yourself beaten up again.

Next time you are tempted to pick up the phone/turn your phone on, what is your plan to stop yourself from getting abused?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/01/17 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
What are you going to do to avoid breaking Plan B again?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/01/17 04:06 PM
Not only does breaking Plan B set you back, but it sent a message to him. The message is that even though you say no more contact until he agrees to your conditions, you don't really mean that. If he tries hard enough you will fold. If he has others harass you on his behalf it will work. And when you do contact him, you will entertain his crazy fogbabble and gas lighting.

In other words, it is sending the message that he is still in control. Is that what you want?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/02/17 05:08 AM
Thank you unwritten. I missed your posts somehow when I checked yesterday. I really appreciate your supportive words. I am trying to be calm and level headed. But it is a huge effort. My husband and his family are revealing themselves to be incredibly manipulative and seem to think it is normal to continually move the goalposts in a discussion in order to confuse the other person into submission. It is hard to keep a firm grip on the truth among all the gas-lighting and the continual assertions that I am a terrible wife for not "protecting" my husband from the consequences of his actions. They really seem to believe that the worst offence a wife could ever do is to put her husband outside the house. They totally ignore the fact that living under the same roof was not part of our marriage vows.....whereas fidelity definitely was.....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/02/17 05:34 AM
Thank you Unwritten, Goody2Shoes and Brain Hurts, I think my problem was the phone number. My main phone number is a roaming one from the neighbouring country (where I work), so I was not able to change it while I was at home. I bought a new burner phone with a local number last week (when my husband took my usual phone, computer cable and laptop to prevent me communicating with anyone), but since everyone still knew my roaming number, I was not really out of contact. I am now in the neighbouring country for two days and will pick up my new contract sim card with new number this morning.

The abuse I have received during the past few days has given me much needed extra confirmation that no contact with him or his family is the best possible option for my mental health. My husband has also changed his phone numbers (pretending that he is not continuing his affair) so luckily I do not know his new ones by heart.

When I arrive back at home, I will follow up on the police report that I filed against the girlfriend on Monday and try to get a restraining order. She really scared me by knowing who I was and what my car looked like and threatening me. I have also received threatening messages from two of her friends on facebook. I hope that these incidents/communications are sufficient to enable me to get a restraining order. I thought that because she was so angry it was an indication that exposure had worked to break up their affair, but my husband's insistence that it was not her that confronted me shows that he still prioritises her feelings above mine by a long way. frown

I am slightly concerned that the prevailing societal attitude in this part of the world that cheating is normal and that women should not embarrass their husbands in public, whatever they have done, will affect my chances of obtaining legal protection. But we will see.

My husband is travelling to a conference today and will be away for 10 days, which is actually very helpful for re-establishing my plan B. He has told his family and friends that he will be questionned by his boss about the situation at home, as a result of my exposure to OW's facebook friends (who forwarded my message around the local office). He has been telling everyone that I have sabotaged his career and that I want to destroy him. He told his parents that I don't want him to work at all and that I want to keep him in the house, totally dependent on me (therefore depriving him of everything that makes him "a man"). They have always been suspicious of the fact that I earn around the same as him and have an equally senior job (not that they recognise my contribution to the family or household at all), so they are predisposed to believe rubbish like that.

I do not believe that he really thinks he will get sacked - nor that, if he did, he would struggle to find something else. He is highly qualified, smart and good at his work. His family have no idea about the world of work or the industry we work in, so he can say anything and they would believe him. He also uses their ignorance to make a huge fuss about my request that he stay at home for the remainder of his time in the country rather than go to the office where the OW is. Since no one knows what the job of a manager involves, they have no idea that my request is totally feasible and reasonable. I am also a senior manager, and I know that the worst that would happen if he stayed at home would be some minor frustration in the office that he was not as available as normal - but since he is leaving anyway, it wouldn't cause any serious problems. The worst that will happen when he gets his "talking to" from his bosses is that he will get a slap on his wrist and a warning - especially since he is already moving to a new job within the same organisation in a different country at the beginning of May. If he were staying in this country, I am sure his bosses would make efforts to move him to another location before sacking him, since he has a successful track record and is good at his work.

However, no one is interested in my reasoning.....

My sister in law told me my father in law has decided to come to visit us in April to "sort out our problems". She shouted at me "why couldn't you just WAIT until April???", as if I could be in the same house as my husband every day while he is continuing his affair, waiting for an "intervention" from my father in law - which i am extremely dubious about anyway. My mother in law tells me (paraphrasing) "your husband says the affair is over - so why are you making so much fuss?", which makes me feel so powerless and depressed. Everyone believes his lies. Everyone seems to blame me. How can this situation where I and my kids are the victims have been twisted to punish me so much?

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/02/17 09:12 AM
Can his family get a hold of you now or is that hole closed?

Whatever happened with the police complaint you made about the OW threatening you?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/02/17 12:02 PM
Number changed now - phew! Hi BrainHurts, no, his family cannot get in touch with me anymore now that I have the new number. I have only given it to my work colleagues and my family in my home country and my IM. Taking this step has already lifted a weight off my mind. I also went to a sexual health clinic this morning to be tested for everything just in case.

I made the police complaint on Monday but, because it happened just an hour or so before i had to go to the airport for a four-day trip, I had to do it over the phone. The detective I spoke to told me to come in in person when I get back. I am just in the airport flying back now, so I will try to get to the police station before it closes.

I wanted to make the complaint immediately on Monday just in case they have a 24 hour or 48 hour limit on reporting incidents. I took the name of the officer and his direct line so I hope I will be able to formalise everything this afternoon.

I am not sure how the police system works here, but I will try to press charges for harassment and also use the police report to apply for a protection or restraining order. I have a lawyer who I think can help.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/02/17 09:30 PM
Good to stay on top of it.

Do you think you have all your Plan B holes closed?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/03/17 06:30 AM
Hi BrainHurts,

Yes, I think all the plan B holes are closed now. But my IM tells me that he has been calling her this week to ask where I am and what I am doing - not loads of details, but he wanted to know the dates of my work trip, when I was coming back, then called again to check I was back, and the arrangements for the kids while I was away. I told the IM that I don't mind this information being shared as far as it concerns arrangements for the kids since I want it to be clear that I am managing everything fine. But do you think she (IM) should be refusing to answer questions?

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/03/17 07:58 AM
Have you sent the IM training link, that is in the Plan B thread, to your IM? She shouldn't be sharing anything with you that doesn't pertain to finances or children. She needs to act as a SPAM filter and not let his garbage get through. She can respond to say "nothing will be sent to chalkncheeae" to any of his questions and then ignore him if he continues to try and dig for information. She will need to stay firm or she will break. She needs to know she needs to protect you.

Do you have the IM training link to send to her?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/03/17 08:29 AM
Thanks a lot Brain Hurts. I will go and review the IM training bit and send to her. Thank you.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/03/17 09:43 AM
I would like to ask advice on something that I know will happen so I want to be prepared.

My parents in law are planning to fly to see us in April to have a family conference to help sort out our marriage. Because of the cultural background of my family in law, they believe that all problems can be solved through discussion and they prioritise the husband and wife living together under the same roof. The fact that WH is outside of the house seems to be consider the worst possible act a wife could ever do - even though I keep trying to explain to everyone that it is not ME who betrayed the marriage, it is HIM. And he is outside because he refused to do what was necessary to end the affair.

So, when they come, how should I handle the situation since I am in Plan B? If I ignore them or refuse to participate in these family discussions then I would definitely be sending the message that I do not want to save my marriage (which is not true). But to engage with them would break my Plan B. Maybe it would be an opportunity to explain to them, as I wrote to my husband in the Plan B letter, that I love him and I want our marriage, but that we have to agree on a plan for recovery that includes the elimination of risk before we can discuss moving forward. Any advice appreciated.

Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/03/17 11:40 AM
Paint your toenails, watch videos of baby penguins.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/03/17 12:38 PM
laugh Thank you goody2shoes! Off to do that right now....
Posted By: apples123 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/03/17 01:09 PM
Change the locks of you haven't already. You have no obligation to meet with them.
Posted By: WierdSituation Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/03/17 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I would like to ask advice on something that I know will happen so I want to be prepared.

My parents in law are planning to fly to see us in April to have a family conference to help sort out our marriage. Because of the cultural background of my family in law, they believe that all problems can be solved through discussion and they prioritise the husband and wife living together under the same roof. The fact that WH is outside of the house seems to be consider the worst possible act a wife could ever do - even though I keep trying to explain to everyone that it is not ME who betrayed the marriage, it is HIM. And he is outside because he refused to do what was necessary to end the affair.

So, when they come, how should I handle the situation since I am in Plan B? If I ignore them or refuse to participate in these family discussions then I would definitely be sending the message that I do not want to save my marriage (which is not true). But to engage with them would break my Plan B. Maybe it would be an opportunity to explain to them, as I wrote to my husband in the Plan B letter, that I love him and I want our marriage, but that we have to agree on a plan for recovery that includes the elimination of risk before we can discuss moving forward. Any advice appreciated.

What if you tell the in laws that they should not fly in unless he has ended the affair? Basically saying nothing including the conference will be done if the affair has not ended. Can you demand that from them? Be firm.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/05/17 03:26 PM
On Friday I finalised police report against OW and then took the case number to my lawyer. Unfortunately, it seems as though my husband had already been talking to the lawyer (tiny country, and we both only know one lawyer) in an effort to get a restraining order against me (?????!!) to prevent me from sending any more exposure messages to anyone.

However, since his request was clearly unreasonable, I am a betrayed spouse with four children who hasn't done anything wrong, and I am a very calm and reasonable person, I still had quite a productive discussion with the lawyer. He advised that before applying for a court order against OW, he would first prefer to invite her to his office to make her aware of the police complaint I have filed and to make her aware that her threatening behaviour towards me is likely to leave her with a criminal record. He believes that delivering this news is the most effective way to achieve what I want: for her to leave my kids and I alone. I agreed to that because I have no desire to get people in serious trouble for vindictive reasons and what I really want is to feel safe when walking around with my kids and not having to look over my shoulder all the time.

We then had a broader discussion about the marriage issues, since my husband had already been complaining to him in a fit of rage (he had just discovered that my exposure message to OW's friends on facebook had been forwarded around his work, even though I did not directly expose to his work). Interestingly, he said that I seem like I am in a vulnerable situation and he would advise me to take power for myself my informing my husband that I will not be accompanying him in his move for his new job and will instead take the kids with me live near where I work (the neighbouring country to where we live now) - which is essentially Plan B. However, he also suggested that he try to mediate between us to establish a negotiated agreement for the way forward that 1) enables us to reconcile and 2) protects my husband's job. I explained that I love my husband and I would like to reconcile, but that I can't accept a lifestyle with the myriad opportunities for cheating that our current lifestyle involves. He said he understands that trust is totally destroyed and that no marriage can survive like that. He also asked if I was prepared to accept the outcome if my husband decides that he can't make the necessary changes, so I said yes.

The reason I feel slightly uneasy about this proposed mediation is that I think I will be pressured into agreeing that my husband must maintain some freedom in order for us to reconcile. I do not want to enter into a negotiation where my dealbreakers will be watered down into compromises - because there really can't be any compromises if we want to totally eliminate the risk of cheating for the future.

I was thinking that I should specify when the lawyer contacts me again that I will not start any discussions without proof that the affair is finished and demonstration that my husband has implemented extraordinary precautions to prevent any contact between him and OW. Do you think that would be a reasonable way forward?

I could then say (as Dr S Harley suggested in the IM school notes) that we are on the edge right now and there is a high risk of any reconciliation failing if we do not have support from an appropriate counsellor in establishing a recovery plan and monitoring how we go along. I don't think the lawyer is in a position to help us establish a recovery plan.....

We ended the meeting with the lawyer saying he would call my husband in order to discuss calling OW into the office. All in all, I am not sure how I feel about this whole thing. It is obvious that my husband is totally fogged out and that what he has said to the lawyer is based around protecting his affair at my expense. He has also told other people that I have ruined OW's reputation by exposing the affair (funny how he seems to totally ignore the fact that she is sleeping with a married man with four kids....) and that I have also tried to destroy his career (again, funny how he seems to be ignorant to the fact that HE risked his job by sleeping with a direct report at work). I think when people talk to me, then it becomes obvious that my husband's behaviour and reactions are crazy - especially since I keep telling everyone he is getting all angry and trying to divorce me essentially because I am upset about him cheating. And what wife would not be upset about their husband cheating?!!




Posted By: apples123 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/05/17 05:23 PM
You need a new lawyer. You cannot share an attorney with your husband.
Posted By: apples123 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/05/17 05:24 PM
Your lawyer is trying to help the OW. You need someone else.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/05/17 06:54 PM
Thank you for the reality check apples123. I will abandon that idea then!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/05/17 08:07 PM
Sigh. I am worried that being a truthful and non-manipulative person is a real disadvantage in this situation.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/05/17 09:18 PM
Since this lawyer disclosed your husbands strategy to you, you can be sure he will also talk to your husband about your strategy. OW will also be updated.

Look for another lawyer, who will help you with your strategy and is not acting in the best interest of OW.
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/05/17 10:04 PM
Here in the states - and in most other countries - it is a conflict of interest for one attorney to represent both parties unless the parties waive the conflict. I would have a serious time ever waiving a conflict of interest or advising a client to do so.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/06/17 04:11 AM
Thank you Goody2Shoes and BritsBrat. I have now sought recommendations for attorneys based in the neighbouring country, where I work and have dual citizenship, from a lawyer colleague of mine. I will call them in the morning. I am feeling increasingly vulnerable in this environment because I am so foreign and have a different cultural background.

I am european and my husband is African, and we live in Africa. There is a cultural approach to sorting out marriage problems here whereby the first question anyone asks the wife when she raises an issue is: "Have you discussed this with your husband? What does he say?" Even the police asked me what my husband said, and whether he knew I was at the police station, before they would agree to open a case file about the threats. Everyone I come across wants to help a married couple sit down together and (in my interpretation - as a very foreign person) persuade the wife to accept whatever her husband has done and bring back peace to the family home without asking any change at all from the man (apart from the most superficial of apologies).

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/06/17 12:16 PM
Booked appointment to meet a new lawyer for Monday. Feeling a lot better now. Thanks for putting me straight everyone! Your advice is so valuable. At least I can get him to advise on some of the complicated international aspects of this mess and protect myself and the kids just in case.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/07/17 11:51 AM
WH has been calling my nanny asking to speak to the kids before school and before bed. I feel like he is trying to break into my plan B and insert himself into our family life, so I don't feel comfortable with him calling to speak to them at all. However, I also don't want to put my nanny in an awkward situation of having to be a gate keeper or fight my battles for me - because that is not fair to her at all.

I could ask my IM to refer him back to the Plan B letter, in which I had stated that he would see the kids once a week on saturdays at a place and time arranged through our nanny, and that this calling is not acceptable. Would that be reasonable? I'd be grateful for advice.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/09/17 06:27 AM
I'm having sudden floods of realisations about suspicious incidents happening so often over the past 3 years. But I guess with the four pregnancies (three miscarriages) and the adoption of my husband's OC from another affair all happening since the beginning of 2014, I was just too occupied with other traumas to see it.

Maybe I couldn't have done anything about it even if I had had proof. Ironically, I feel in the strongest position with regards to our relationship that I have ever been in. Despite the fact he has been cheating the entire time, by bringing the OC to live with us, and working hard to create a happy and loving family environment, we have a much happier and stable home than we have ever had before. And the loss of it through Plan B is really hitting my husband hard. I just can't understand how we could have built something in the midst of him cheating all the time. It doesn't make any sense.

I understand that when this affair started, we were at a real low point - as a result of the combined traumas of all his past cheating, and the unresolved issue of the OC. But since then things have got so much better. Bringing OC to live with us has been a real success. He is happy, healthy, emotional secure and really loves the family. I just can't believe that all the time we were dealing with that situation, my husband has also been establishing a relationship with someone else. So he has built two parallel relationships? I am now worrying if the OW's child is his too.

Now my husband has accepted this job in another country that will take him away from OW. And all the plans were for us to move there as a family. But I have put a stop to all that. I hope I did the right thing.

The police just called me following up on the case I opened against OW because of her threatening me and accosting me in the mall car park.


Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/09/17 07:10 AM
I think the reason I have been absorbed with these thoughts is that there was a hole in my Plan B. I have an old email address that autoforwards to my new one. My husband broke into it and changed all the security info so now I can't get back into it. But it still autoforwards to my new account. So he sent an email to that account yesterday and it then got autoforwarded to my new account, by passing my blocking of his address.

I have now added this old email address of mine onto the blocked senders list and I hope that will prevent any future messages getting through from him.

It is amazing how much a couple of lines on an email really messes with your head.

Checked the age of OW's daughter and it definitely can't be his. She was born a year before we first moved here (and neither of us had ever been to this country before). I know it doesn't really matter, given all the terrible stuff he has done, but having been through the indescribable pain of finding out another woman is pregnant by my H before, it is the thing I am most terrified of.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/10/17 05:24 AM
What Plan B things are you doing for yourself elf? What self-care are you doing? You're doing great and I wouldn't worry about all the times he has cheated before, just know that most likely he has always had a SSL.

Now is your time to think of you and your children.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/10/17 10:12 AM
Hi Brain Hurts,

Thanks for the support. I have having a bit of a tough time focusing on self-care because of having to spend a lot of time at the police station. They told me this morning they are going to arrest the OW and take her to court on Monday. There are witnesses to what happened who corroborate my story. But the whole thing is making me extremely anxious and stressed. I am worried they will put me in front of her in court or something. My husband is away at a conference, coming back this weekend. I have no idea if he knows what is going on since I am having no communication with him.

I feel that I have done the right thing in reporting her to the police since she threatened me in a public place and has made me feel unsafe going about with my children in my home. But i have never had any dealings with police or courts before and it is a very scary process. I am also having to fight with myself to not drop the charges because I am a nice person and I don't have any desire to hurt or punish people just for the fun of it - however, I understand that she did something to me that has made me feel unsafe, so my action is justified.

You are absolutely right that he has always had a secret second life. Actually, he has got a lot better over the years though. I would say becoming married has been a long slow process of realisation for him.....lasting a decade so far.....and he still doesn't seem to get that married = one woman for life.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/10/17 10:14 AM
From reading so many other threads, I think betrayed spouses really commonly have this same dilemma that I feel now: you don't want to do something that your WH might never forgive you for, so you are reticent about being really strong in the interventions to break up the affair. But while we, as the faithful partner, feel that conscience kick in to stop us doing hurtful things, we must remember that our partners and their OWs didn't consider us for one second when they were causing all these messes.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/10/17 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hi Brain Hurts,

Thanks for the support. I have having a bit of a tough time focusing on self-care because of having to spend a lot of time at the police station. They told me this morning they are going to arrest the OW and take her to court on Monday. There are witnesses to what happened who corroborate my story. But the whole thing is making me extremely anxious and stressed. I am worried they will put me in front of her in court or something. My husband is away at a conference, coming back this weekend. I have no idea if he knows what is going on since I am having no communication with him.

I feel that I have done the right thing in reporting her to the police since she threatened me in a public place and has made me feel unsafe going about with my children in my home. But i have never had any dealings with police or courts before and it is a very scary process. I am also having to fight with myself to not drop the charges because I am a nice person and I don't have any desire to hurt or punish people just for the fun of it - however, I understand that she did something to me that has made me feel unsafe, so my action is justified.

You are absolutely right that he has always had a secret second life. Actually, he has got a lot better over the years though. I would say becoming married has been a long slow process of realisation for him.....lasting a decade so far.....and he still doesn't seem to get that married = one woman for life.
Yes you did the right thing and don't back down. I'm so Glad the police are taking this seriously. Did they tell you what to expect at court? Will the witnesses be there? Remember she is the one who threatened you. You didn't do anything wrong. Stay strong, my Friend.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/10/17 03:24 PM
Thank you. They just told me to turn up at 8am on Monday. But I have got in touch with another local lawyer, just to give me some advice about what is likely to happen. I don't know if I will have to testify or anything. They have also called the security guard witness to be at court at 8. He was kind enough to call and let me know.

I am just getting so much disapproval from so many people. As if I am the problem here. It is like exposure all over again. But I guess there is no way OW will want to come anywhere near my family after this (well, a normal, right thinking person would keep as far away as possible), so I will focus on the positive.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 03:25 AM
My husband flew back from his conference yesterday and broke into the house by climbing over the 8 ft high gate. He then strode into the house with a smirk. I think he thinks Plan B is a game.

He spent a couple of hours with the kids, which made them really happy because they have been praying every day for him to come home. He is a great father.

I tried to stay in the bedroom to start with, but then I decided to just ask him whether he had decided to end his affair yet so that he could come home.

He came out with a load of fogbabble. There wasn't any affair, I have blown it out of all proportion in my mind. He has cut contact just can't demonstrate it in the way I want. He has always wanted to come home, but my requests for no travelling and leaving his job were unreasonable, etc etc. He then asked me to stop the police action against OW, added some gaslighting about how I am lowering myself by interacting with these police here and making myself look vindictive, failing to understand that showing me that he had obviously been speaking to her about it undermines his previous claims that they are not speaking.

He asked for a specific list of things I am expecting him to do in order for us to be able to move forward. I have sent him the ending an affair checklist numerous times, but I again said: 1) end your affair; 2) put in place extraordinary precautions to ensure that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you and OW to contact each other again; 3) be honest about everything that has happened (to be confirmed by polygraph); 4) financial and technical accountability. He says he is doing all these things. I said but you have not actually DONE anything. Saying you are doing it is not the same as actually doing it. He then went into these blah blah blahs about how can I demonstrate I am doing things if you don't even let me call or email you, etc etc.

He then tried to manufacture a moral high ground for himself by saying he desperately wants to sort out our problems by getting a third party to mediate between us, and then telling me I am the problem because I am refusing to talk to the lawyer. "She is a woman. She can advise us. What problems cannot be solved by talking?". He then did a bit of stomping around saying I am the one who doesn't want our marriage to work. I am just building a case against him so that I can leave. (I always find it funny when he says this: he got another woman pregnant and has been cheating on me for 10 years. Why would i need to "build a case" against him in order to justify leaving?!) I said I will not talk to anyone while his affair is still ongoing. Doing all the things on the list above - and more - is a prerequisite for any kind of discussion about a future for us, if there is one.

He was trying his best to get me to commit to allowing him back in the house when he returns from his final work trip next week. I refused to commit to anything without a demonstration that he is actually serious about saving our marriage. He does not seem at all serious at the moment. Or at least he still thinks that he can manipulate his way out of the situation without having to actually implement any real change at all.

He kept on saying that when he comes back from travelling he will come and sit in the house until he is due to leave the country for his new job at the end of April. He says he will give me his phones, so that I see absolutely all communication. He will give me all his passwords to everything, etc. And he will submit to the polygraph. But the problem is, my eyes are open now. He is very good at agreeing to do things at some indeterminate point in the future because he is totally confident that he will be able to manipulate his way out of ACTUALLY doing the thing when push comes to shove. He used to always tell me "you can look at my phones whenever you want" and made sure I knew his passwords to give me a sense of security. However, at the point when a suspicious message would arrive, and I would make the request to see it, he would be holding the phone above his head with one hand (he is taller and much stronger than me) rapidly deleting stuff with one hand while holding me off with the other, all the while saying "you can have the phone, I am giving it to you, I am just waiting for you to calm down".

The only positive aspect of the whole incident was that he left at 7pm without a fight and went to stay at his friend's house. He is leaving for another week-long work trip today, so at least he will not be in court this morning.

I am really starting to see how manipulative and controlling my husband is - and how totally confident he is that he will win any battle of wills. Oh well, on with Plan B.

I just have one question about fogbabble. Can the fog be a sign of wanting to protect his SSL just as much as it is a sign of continued addition to the OW? I get the feeling that there is no great love here (apart from his evident love for himself) but that his manipulation and attempts at control are more about guarding his potential for having affairs whenever he wants rather than protecting this specific one. He is leaving the country for good in a month and a half. And I really think he will not look back after that point. But wants to make sure that in the new country he has the same freedom he has always enjoyed.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 03:50 AM
Is it actually possible to ensure no contact with smartphones, apps, and all manner of ways to contact people through the internet?! Just saw a notice on whatsapp saying that now you can send messages that will automatically delete themselves after 24 hours - and felt really depressed. The world we live in today seems to be actively promoting SSLs for everyone.
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 03:57 AM
Change the locks so he can't get in the house.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 04:26 AM
Thanks Brits Brat. I did change the locks already. It was 4pm in the afternoon and we live in a house that has a compound - so it is surrounded by a wall with a large motorised gate. He managed to scale the 8ft gate, which has spikes on top of it, to get into the compound. The kids were playing outside and our doors were open since it was the afternoon. That is how he managed to walk right into the house. I will ask the landlord to put additional barbed wire on top of the gate.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He is a great father.
A great father doesn't have multiple affairs. A great father doesn't hurt the mother of his children.

He is a lousy father.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 09:03 AM
Thank you Goody2Shoes. It is good to have things put in perspective. You are right.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 09:08 AM
I spent 2 hours at the police station this morning. It turns out my new lawyer (a friend of a friend) is the former Director of Public Prosecutions so she helped enormously. The OW turned up without any legal counsel and with a stinky attitude. My lawyer had told the investigating officer in advance that we did not wish for her to have a criminal record, so she received a formal warning to stay away from our family - although if there is even the hint of anything happening again she will be in court straight away. The police implied that she has been in trouble before (One of them said "what has she done NOW?"). I am so angry at my WH for bringing this person into our lives.

I was worried my husband would mysteriously appear. But he didn't. Phew.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 12:36 PM
It has just been confirmed to me that my husband and OW are still obviously in daily contact. WH called our nanny to ask who was the lady I was with this morning (my lawyer). I know he was not around to see me himself, so the only person that could have told him that I was with a lady was OW, who saw me at the police station.

Was I naive to think that the nuclear exposure, employment scrutiny, legal action against OW and throwing WH out would have ended the affair? Maybe the fact that he has been travelling for the past 3 weeks has insulated him from the effects of not living at home. Maybe the legal action against OW has given them a reason to keep talking. Or maybe because they know he is leaving the country for good in 6 weeks anyway, they see no reason to stop now.

I just don't know what to think now. If he is moving to another country at the end of April, and I am planning to take the kids to another (different) country in June, what hope could there ever be that we would manage to sort this out? Even if the affair dies a natural death in the few months after he moves, he will probably just start a new one in his new location. I'm starting to think there is no solution at all.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 01:34 PM
He has lived a SSL for so Long he is obviously still thinking he can gaslight you. You need to get into a dark Plan B to protect yourself. Can you make sure the doors are locked at all times?

And yes it's obvious he is still in contact with the OW. He hasn't ended his affair. And I'm sorry to say he is probably already looking for the next OW. He is a serial Cheater with a traveling job and has many, many opportunities for a SSL.

Protect yourself.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 02:52 PM
Thank you BrainHurts. Our landlord is installing more barbed wire on top of the gate tomorrow morning. And yes we will try to keep the doors locked from now on.

It is really depressing to go through this sudden realisation that I am married to such a deceitful and selfish person. I have loved him so much for so long. But it is better to have my eyes open than be blind.
Posted By: Allan_Tweed Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/13/17 03:05 PM
What about getting a guard goose? Better than a dog.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/14/17 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
It has just been confirmed to me that my husband and OW are still obviously in daily contact. WH called our nanny to ask who was the lady I was with this morning (my lawyer). I know he was not around to see me himself, so the only person that could have told him that I was with a lady was OW, who saw me at the police station.
Don't share personal or legal info with your nanny. Instruct her not to answer those questions. If you don't give her this info, she can tell him she doesn't know.
Quote
Was I naive to think that the nuclear exposure, employment scrutiny, legal action against OW and throwing WH out would have ended the affair? Maybe the fact that he has been travelling for the past 3 weeks has insulated him from the effects of not living at home. Maybe the legal action against OW has given them a reason to keep talking. Or maybe because they know he is leaving the country for good in 6 weeks anyway, they see no reason to stop now.
Exposure speeds up what would happen anyway. If the affair would die, it now dies sooner because of the turmoil. If he repents and wants to recover the marriage, you will have suffered less then if you didn't expose. You won't be the wreck you would be if this abuse would have gone on for longer.
Now work on your personal recovery. If at any moment he truly repents, you will still have the strength you need for recovery of your marriage. If he doesn't repent, you will be better of without him.
Quote
I just don't know what to think now. If he is moving to another country at the end of April, and I am planning to take the kids to another (different) country in June, what hope could there ever be that we would manage to sort this out? Even if the affair dies a natural death in the few months after he moves, he will probably just start a new one in his new location. I'm starting to think there is no solution at all.
Could you be married to a man who has affairs? If he refuses exclusivity in your marriage, you don't stand a chance anyway.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/14/17 12:24 PM
Thank you Goody2Shoes. I really appreciate how you get me to put things in perspective. You are right. I have done everything I could reasonably have done and will just focus on myself and the kids.

I have an appointment with an international marriage/divorce lawyer on Friday and was thinking of asking him to draft a formal separation letter that specifies how much money my husband should be sending to me for maintenance of four children and spousal support. However, I am wondering about the enforcement of financial agreements across borders - and I was thinking that it might be sensible to inform his employer of his financial obligation, since he works for an international organisation and they sometimes have rules about staff being in good financial standing with no judgements against them. Do any of the lawyers here, perhaps Brits Brat, have any advice in that respect?
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/14/17 11:57 PM
Without knowing the countries or the employer involved I couldn't give you any suggestions. Also, since I'm not licensed in those countries, I certainly wouldn't be authorized to provide legal advice.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/15/17 04:29 AM
Thank you for the reply BritsBrat. I will see what the lawyer has to say.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/20/17 10:38 AM
Just an update since I haven't posted in a few days. On Friday last week, I travelled to see a lawyer in the neighbouring country where I plan to move with the kids at the end of their school year in June. He was very helpful in laying out my options and rights, despite the international dimensions of our problems.

There is no such thing as a formal separation here, but there is the possibility of applying for a maintenance order if WH starts to become financially unreliable.

The lawyer also suggested that if I am focused on reconciliation he could write me a letter laying out the extremely high costs of all aspects of an international divorce, which I could then share with WH if he starts talking about D (but not before). I am glad to have the facts now, but not sure whether it is advisable/desirable/strategic to attempt to scare WH away from divorce? Any advice appreciated.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/20/17 10:43 AM
WH travelled to his home country, where his new job is also based, on Monday last week to do some recruitment of new staff. I took the opportunity to do some additional exposure with his extended family in that country because I knew he would be meeting them. Although afterwards I hit a real low point because I feel that I have got to the end of the active interventions I can make. It is now just a question of focusing on Plan B, the kids and self-care - but I am trying to do that while sitting in a country and town where i am surrounded by terrible memories and triggers everywhere. Can't wait until June when I can move the kids away from this place and we can start work on a new life for all of us. It is going to be a tough few months.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/20/17 04:17 PM
I've been reading a lot of old threads to give me strength for my Plan B and I noticed that IndieGirl was advised to send a couple of love notes/memories of good times to her WH during plan B. Is that something that the forum still advises?

Since I didn't really do a plan A (well, one weekend), because WH refused to finish his affair after exposure and was quite aggressive, I wonder whether it might help remind him of what we have built together.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/20/17 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I've been reading a lot of old threads to give me strength for my Plan B and I noticed that IndieGirl was advised to send a couple of love notes/memories of good times to her WH during plan B. Is that something that the forum still advises?

Since I didn't really do a plan A (well, one weekend), because WH refused to finish his affair after exposure and was quite aggressive, I wonder whether it might help remind him of what we have built together.

I would not advise that in your situation. Primarily because your WH is a serial cheater who has probably been cheating for the entire length of your marriage. He has an entire SSL on the side and does not seem to be at all interested in ending it any time soon. His long term serial cheating is a far greater hurdle to overcome, and as it stands right now, I do not have much hope for your marriage. I know you do not want to divorce, and that is your choice, but I do not see a couple love notes or Plan B doing anything to get your WH to change his lifestyle.

In Indie's case, her husband was not a serial cheater. He had a garden variety affair with a mutual friend.

Even with that in mind, I do not remember Indie being advised this and have not seen any other person in Plan B advised to break their no contact. The advise in Plan B is to have NO contact to protect yourself, and if you are sending notes to the wayward this completely contradicts this.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/20/17 07:32 PM
Thanks a lot Unwritten. Yeah, I am also not exactly hopeful....I guess it just takes some time to adjust to thinking that we probably won't be together in the future.

Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/20/17 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thanks a lot Unwritten. Yeah, I am also not exactly hopeful....I guess it just takes some time to adjust to thinking that we probably won't be together in the future.

Of course it does! You have done so well in the short time you've been here. Just continue to protect yourself in a tight Plan B. You will feel better once you have no more contact with WH and are not hearing about his every move.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/20/17 07:55 PM
Thank you. I already do feel a lot better - NC is very therapeutic! And I can really see how important it is for the kids. We have our calm normal family routines and that helps us all deal with the huge changes.

I am not really hearing from him - it's just we are in a bit of limbo since he has been travelling for three weeks on three separate trips (pretty much since the start of plan B) and is due to arrive back tomorrow, so I am apprehensive about what might happen and how things will change with him in the country rather than occupied elsewhere. Last week he had a day between coming back and leaving again, and used that time to break into the house pretending everything was normal.

He called our nanny a couple of days ago asking to speak to the kids just before dinner, but I asked her to tell him no. I don't mind him seeing them when he is in the country but only outside the house where he can't attempt to disrupt the calm we have worked hard to establish without him. I feel that even phone calls from him will have a destabilising effect on our home so I prefer if he just keeps away. I guess when he moves to his new job in his home country we will have to work out a regular skype call time for the kid's sake. But for now, I think it is OK to refuse impromptu calls. He's the one that refused to cancel his trips when I asked, after all.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/20/17 08:33 PM
As long as your nanny tells you he calls, your plan B isn't watertight.

Can you give her instructions not to tell you if he calls? And give her clear instructions to be a firewall and not give him any info that isn't relevant.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/20/17 08:45 PM
I am no expert on international divorce. I do know something about international marriages, but not in your country. Get educated on custody rights in your situation. It might be important to file for divorce in the "right" country. Since you have options, understand what the pro's and cons are when you file for divorce in every possible country.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/21/17 05:39 AM
Yes you should seek out a lawyer that is specialized in international fivorce. Since you and your husband are from the same country, it depends on where you married an sometimes on where you live and how long you have lived there to even know which country's divorce laws apply to your marriage. It may have been set in the marriage contract.
You cannot be sure that a regular local lawyer knows that. In some cases (mine) if I start living in another country, after half a year, laws of the country of residence would apply.
You have to consult with an international lawyer and not waste time with incompetent lawyers who tell you how to save your marriage according to their cultural beliefs.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/21/17 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
As long as your nanny tells you he calls, your plan B isn't watertight.

Can you give her instructions not to tell you if he calls? And give her clear instructions to be a firewall and not give him any info that isn't relevant.

Thank you Goody2Shoes. I hadn't thought of that actually. I will tell her not to tell me from now on - especially now that we have worked out the main logistics of when and how visits with the kids will be arranged.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/21/17 06:32 AM
Thank you Goody2Shoes and Happy Heart. The lawyer I saw on Friday is an international divorce lawyer and he was extremely helpful. He was even able to advise on the enforcement of financial obligations across borders. My H and I are from different countries (from each other), we live in a third, and we will soon be moving in June - me to the neighbouring country and he to his home country. He advised that it is best to wait until I am resident in the neighbouring country before doing anything formal because the law there is extremely protective of women and children and there are numerous avenues available for ensuring compliance with financial obligations, even across borders. So while I am quite a weak position where I am currently, I am hopeful that the situation will be a lot better come June.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/21/17 07:15 AM
Is there anyway you could move to your neighbouring country sooner than June?
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/21/17 07:08 PM
You don't know if he might do something adversary before that time.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/22/17 07:04 AM
Thank you BrainHurts and Happy Heart. I had previously ruled out moving before June because the children's school term finishes on June 15 and they would be really upset to leave their friends. But given that being here is causing me a lot of stress, I will reconsider that decision and see if I can get them into a new school in the neighbouring country before the end of the school year.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/23/17 01:57 PM
I've just received a very comprehensive legal opinion from the lawyer I went to see last week. It lays out all the relevant legislation and discuss all issues related to children, finances, court jurisdiction, and the likely cost of divorce proceedings (including the costs of comparative assessment of the two countries matrimonial property laws). It makes pretty scary reading for someone contemplating divorce. My question is, should I share this opinion with WH or not? I am not sure whether it is a good move strategically.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/23/17 02:40 PM
Considering his actions, I would not share any of this info with him. Don't show your cards.

Move as soon as possible to the country where you have the advantage, file for divorce under the best circumstances for you. Moving will also help you avoid triggers and plan B will be much easier.

If you want to reconcile, it will have to be on your terms (and only if he is truly repentant, hat in hand!). But to be honest, after all you've told us about him, I doubt he is willing to step up and implement extraordinary precautions.
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/23/17 02:41 PM
No! If you do, that may be construed as breaching the attorney client privilege and then your WH may be allowed access to more than just this about your case attorney's file. Different countries have different laws in this regard. Ask the attorney before giving him any communications between you and the attorney.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/23/17 04:08 PM
Thank you Goody2Shoes and Brits Brat. I will keep it to myself then. I am really looking forward to being able to move and to have the security of legal protection.

Yes, I have done a LOT of reading about EPs and I really don't see that there would be any way for us to move forward unless we were joined at the hip. I would have to literally have a desk in the same office as him, sit in on all his meetings and keep his (non-smart!) phone in front of me all the time in order to feel any sense of security in this relationship. And that's in addition to spending all our non-working hours together. I wouldn't say the chances of that happening are absolute zero (i'm a pretty useful person to have around from a work perspective), but pretty close....

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/23/17 04:45 PM
I think he believes this is all a power game at the moment (I guess it is actually). When we had our plan A weekend, he did agree for me to hold his phones the entire time, taking them into the bathroom with me, so that he wouldn't be alone with them - so there was a glimpse of understanding of what it would take for me to feel secure. We ended up having a really nice time. But that was just for one weekend - and it took me being extremely forceful about refusing to leave the house unless his phones were already in my handbag for that to happen. And I can't live my life having to impose things on him like that. It is exhausting.

I think he is still 100% sure that he will be able to manipulate his way back to having his cake and eating it. I don't think the idea that he might not "win" in this situation has crossed his mind at all. I feel like I am battling not only the typical wayward fog, but also the caveman fog, the god-complex fog, etc. However, I suspect that when he moves to his new job and finds himself sleeping on his cousin's couch at age 40, while his wife and children start a new life in another country and he has to deal with questions from everyone about where we are, his might start to introspect a little bit.

Although in my heart of hearts, what I really think will happen is that he go on a womanising binge over the next 6 months or so (just because he thinks he CAN), block out any thoughts that he could possibly have been at fault, then get some 22 year old pregnant and have a nervous breakdown about what he has done with his life.....that might be the rock bottom that would cause him to really turn around. But after having been through the OC thing already, I don't think I would be willing to deal with that nightmare a second time.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/23/17 06:25 PM
You sound like an incredibly strong person. At some point WH is going to realise that you are his rock and that he has lost the most important thing he ever had. Unfortunately that moment of realisation is going to come to him only after you have gone for ever. Until then he will think he can play you.

A 6 month binge sounds pretty familiar too.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/23/17 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he believes this is all a power game at the moment (I guess it is actually). When we had our plan A weekend, he did agree for me to hold his phones the entire time, taking them into the bathroom with me, so that he wouldn't be alone with them - so there was a glimpse of understanding of what it would take for me to feel secure. We ended up having a really nice time. But that was just for one weekend - and it took me being extremely forceful about refusing to leave the house unless his phones were already in my handbag for that to happen. And I can't live my life having to impose things on him like that. It is exhausting.

There have been couples who have done this, lived a life of extra extraordinary precautions due to serial cheating, in order for their marriage to survive. So it can be done, IF the serial cheater is 110% on board which yours is not and probably never will be. However, I also can personally not imagine living life this.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/23/17 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he is still 100% sure that he will be able to manipulate his way back to having his cake and eating it. I don't think the idea that he might not "win" in this situation has crossed his mind at all. I feel like I am battling not only the typical wayward fog, but also the caveman fog, the god-complex fog, etc. However, I suspect that when he moves to his new job and finds himself sleeping on his cousin's couch at age 40, while his wife and children start a new life in another country and he has to deal with questions from everyone about where we are, his might start to introspect a little bit.

Although in my heart of hearts, what I really think will happen is that he go on a womanising binge over the next 6 months or so (just because he thinks he CAN), block out any thoughts that he could possibly have been at fault, then get some 22 year old pregnant and have a nervous breakdown about what he has done with his life.....that might be the rock bottom that would cause him to really turn around. But after having been through the OC thing already, I don't think I would be willing to deal with that nightmare a second time.

Speculating as to what he is or is not thinking now or in the future, or speculating over what might or might not make him hit rock bottom and come to his senses, is really not good for you. In Plan B you should not be concerned about his thoughts or whether he is hitting rock bottom or not.

The reality is that he has lived an entire life of brazen infidelity (even an OC with multiple affairs after that). His family seems to think he is entitled to that lifestyle. I really don't see anything making him hit rock bottom. The wayward mentality is so ingrained in him, and he seems to feel completely entitled to live as he has been, I don't see there being some kind of wake up call from that. Be prepared mentally and operate as if he will NEVER hit rock bottom or take responsibility for his lifestyle or regret his decisions or even regret losing you.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Since I didn't really do a plan A (well, one weekend), because WH refused to finish his affair after exposure and was quite aggressive, I wonder whether it might help remind him of what we
have built together.

I've been trying to read through your thread today, so if this was addressed later, sorry to be covering it again.

A "stellar" Plan A does not help in the case of a serial cheater. A serial cheater does not cheat because of unmet needs or a bad marriage.

They cheat because they like to get their ENs met outside of the marriage (often by many people) and they do not care that it hurts their BS.

When I learned of my WxH's first affair/s, we came to MB and recovered (really, a false recovery) but we went through the online program and our M was probably the best it had been besides the honeymoon period. Yet he cheated, again. Dr Harley told me that he had read through our questionnaires, etc, and my WxH had no complaints about our M and his ENs were being met.

So please do not beat yourself up that you could have done x, y or z to change this situation. The only thing that could have helped was if your WH had zero opportunity to lead a SSL and interact with women, basically.

I'm sure I will have more to add...
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He called our nanny a couple of days ago asking to speak to the kids just before dinner, but I asked her to tell him no. I don't mind him seeing them when he is in the country but only outside the house where he can't attempt to disrupt the calm we have worked hard to establish without him.

It might be wise to allow him a window of time to speak to the kids every day. It would be a good question for your lawyer. Here in the US, parents are basically discouraged from blocking access to the kids via phone calls/texting etc.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My question is, should I share this opinion with WH or not?

You realize that you would not be communicating anything to your WH besides issues related to visitation or finances that are absolutely unavoidable?

For instance, if he was to break into the house again and start yelling at you about the OW, do not discuss her, the D, EPs or anything like that with him anymore. Go to your bedroom and shut the door. In fact since we are discussing it, do you have a plan for what you will do if he breaks in again? Are the locks changed?

Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I think he believes this is all a power game at the moment (I guess it is actually). When we had our plan A weekend, he did agree for me to hold his phones the entire time, taking them into the bathroom with me, so that he wouldn't be alone with them - so there was a glimpse of understanding of what it would take for me to feel secure. We ended up having a really nice time. But that was just for one weekend - and it took me being extremely forceful about refusing to leave the house unless his phones were already in my handbag for that to happen. And I can't live my life having to impose things on him like that. It is exhausting.

I don't think there is a power trip happening. He is incredibly entitled, with a wayward mentality that is so deeply entrenched because he has gotten away with it for so long that it is going to be hard to turn this around, chalkncheese.

Did anybody link the serial cheater threads for you? I can't remember.

I ask because I'm not getting the sense that you realize how much of an uphill battle recovering with this type of cheater will be. Even if he realizes that he wants you and his family more than his SSL and promises everything under the sun to make you happy, serial cheats are notorious for backsliding into bad habits (SSL, IB, flirting, etc) over time.

He would have to agree to a job where he is basically at home working with you and has no opportunity for a SSL or affair to exist...you spend all of your free time together, he does not so much as run errands without you, etc. That's what recovery for you will come down to.

Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
However, I suspect that when he moves to his new job and finds himself sleeping on his cousin's couch at age 40, while his wife and children start a new life in another country and he has to deal with questions from everyone about where we are, his might start to introspect a little bit.

My WxH was on his parents' couch and basically devastated and told my IM that it was "killing him" to not be able to speak to me. A few weeks later he had moved on to OW4 and with a very short time after that, moved in with her.

So...I would not hold out too much hope that this will help your situation. With a first-time cheater, yes. Serial cheater who has never not cheated, no.

Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 01:27 AM
Given your WH's history of cheating the entire marriage and having an enabling family who is basically attacking you (this was my WxH as well), I have to tell you...I think divorce and personal recovery would be the definition of success for this situation.

Not every marriage is meant to be saved.

I'm sorry frown


Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 01:31 AM
As SusieQ recommended Serial Cheaters

There are some radio clips at the end of the thread.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
You sound like an incredibly strong person. At some point WH is going to realise that you are his rock and that he has lost the most important thing he ever had. Unfortunately that moment of realisation is going to come to him only after you have gone for ever. Until then he will think he can play you.

A 6 month binge sounds pretty familiar too.

Thanks Living Well. I guess that is one of the few things (strength) I can thank WH for!! Along with the beautiful kids.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 06:21 AM
Quote
Speculating as to what he is or is not thinking now or in the future, or speculating over what might or might not make him hit rock bottom and come to his senses, is really not good for you. In Plan B you should not be concerned about his thoughts or whether he is hitting rock bottom or not.

Thank you for the reality check Unwritten. It is so good for me to hear this stuff so that my wishful thinking doesn't get the best of me.

Quote
Be prepared mentally and operate as if he will NEVER hit rock bottom or take responsibility for his lifestyle or regret his decisions or even regret losing you.

I think I will print this sentence out and stick it to the wall behind my desk. It's hard to change a habit of loving someone for so long, but I really do understand that it is better for me and the kids to move on with a separate life.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 06:29 AM
Quote
My WxH was on his parents' couch and basically devastated and told my IM that it was "killing him" to not be able to speak to me. A few weeks later he had moved on to OW4 and with a very short time after that, moved in with her.

Thank you for your valuable input SusieQ. I have actually been reading your recovery thread and I wondered what happened because I could see that there were some parallels with my WH. I saw that your signature says divorced but the recovery thread stopped some way before that point.

I guess I should just be thankful that this has all come to a head at a time when we can quite easily move to different countries and I have a good job so can support myself and the kids with no trouble. The really big worry for me about the future (pre-crisis) was that in order to move with my husband to his new job I would have had to give up my job, and that would have left me in a really vulnerable position with no independent income in a foreign country where I don't speak the language that well, surrounded by people who share my husband's sense of entitlement to philandering. To be honest, it is a bit of a relief to feel like there is a different future to look forward to now.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
As SusieQ recommended Serial Cheaters

There are some radio clips at the end of the thread.

Thanks a lot Brain Hurts. Yes, I've read the thread and listened to the clips several times. What Dr Harley says totally matches my instinct from living with a guy like this: there is no way I could ever be secure in a relationship with my husband unless we were together 24/7, we worked together as if we were one person, and if I had to do something on my own ever (like going to the hairdresser, for example), then I would have to ensure that he was in sole charge of the kids during that time and that he had no access to a phone. Any random interaction with women in any context whatsoever is a risk.

I have been living with this fear for such a long time now that the calm I am now experiencing as a result of plan B is amazing. And I feel that each day I am insulated in my plan B takes me one step further away from ever wanting to experience that kind of insecurity again. Since it has only been a month now, I still have some yo-yoing backwards and forwards because there are things i miss so much about our life together. But I know that will fade as time passes.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 06:47 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
When I learned of my WxH's first affair/s, we came to MB and recovered (really, a false recovery) but we went through the online program and our M was probably the best it had been besides the honeymoon period. Yet he cheated, again. Dr Harley told me that he had read through our questionnaires, etc, and my WxH had no complaints about our M and his ENs were being met.

I can really empathise with this. My husband has always told me - and shown me - that he is "so happy" with our marriage and family. To all intents and purposes, it seems as though we have /had a great relationship. The kids are happy and secure, we have lots of fun together, our home has always been happy and calm - except for my constant fear of his phone and niggling anxiety that he is not all-in with me, even when I had not seen any evidence to confirm fears.

The weirdest thing for me has been that the past four years or so have been the time when we have really stabilised ourselves as a family, after the trauma of the OC and the challenges of establishing an international marriage while still moving around between countries, dealing with visas, etc. We really did manage to navigate our way through the OC situation successfully. We now have total NC with the mother and I am adopting him. I thought we were happy. But what I have now learnt is that being happy doesn't actually have any impact on my husband's behaviour at all. It is just so sad.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 06:52 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
It might be wise to allow him a window of time to speak to the kids every day. It would be a good question for your lawyer. Here in the US, parents are basically discouraged from blocking access to the kids via phone calls/texting etc.

Thanks SusieQ. I will check with the lawyer what the recommendations are. Once he moves for his new job, he won't be able to see them very often (since it would require him paying for a pretty expensive plane ticket each time) so I know we will have to schedule calls from then onwards.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 06:57 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My question is, should I share this opinion with WH or not?

You realize that you would not be communicating anything to your WH besides issues related to visitation or finances that are absolutely unavoidable?

For instance, if he was to break into the house again and start yelling at you about the OW, do not discuss her, the D, EPs or anything like that with him anymore. Go to your bedroom and shut the door. In fact since we are discussing it, do you have a plan for what you will do if he breaks in again? Are the locks changed?

The locks are changed. When he broke in, he climbed over the 10ft high front gate in the middle of the day when we had the doors of the house open because the kids were playing outside. I have asked the landlord to put barbed wire over the top of the gate to prevent it happening again - although I know my husband had a scheduled knee operation a couple of days ago, so I think the likelihood of him being in a condition to scale the gate again in the next few weeks is minimal.

When I saw him walking inside last time, I did run to the bedroom and lock the door - but then I came out and asked him why he had broken in. It was a pointless discussion full of fogbabble and gaslighting that just left me feeling really depressed. So yes, if there is ever an incident like that again, I know the right thing to do is to go into the bedroom and stay there until he is gone.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/24/17 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
You just got out of a burning house, don't go back inside. You will get severely burnt.

Hi Goody2Shoes, I am just reading back through the advice people have given me since the start of the thread and I wanted to say that this sentence you wrote had a real impact on me. I repeat it to myself frequently throughout the day and it has helped me firm up my plan B and stay focused on what I need to do. Thanks!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/30/17 11:34 AM
Just a small update since it has been a week or so. I am quite happily in Plan B now - and getting less and less keen on the idea of ever speaking to my husband again. I guess that is the beneficial effect of Plan B.

He went in to hospital for an elective knee operation yesterday and has been bombarding all our mutual friends and family with messages trying to get sympathy for his "pain". As a result I have been fielding calls and messages from several people asking why I don't care about my husband. I have tried to repeat over and over to everyone: I love my husband. I want him to come home. But he has not broken up with his girlfriend and I refuse to accept for him to have a girlfriend and a wife. If he breaks up with his girlfriend and can prove to me there are precautions in place to prevent them ever contacting each other again, then I would welcome him home with open arms. But so far, he has done absolutely nothing to show me that.

It is frustrating that these messages have broken into my plan B calm, but at least they are not coming from him directly.

He is due to leave the country to start his new job on May 1, so I now think it is time to get my lawyer to contact him with respect to a parenting plan and maintenance payments from May onwards. It would be better to sort that out before he leaves so that the children are protected.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/30/17 11:36 AM
The amount of effort he seems to be putting in to try to manipulate everyone around him to support his efforts to get back into our house are impressive. If only he could direct that effort towards actually changing his lifestyle then we might get somewhere. Sigh. He still does not believe fidelity is non-negotiable, I think.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/30/17 05:53 PM
I'm sorry to say it does not sound like you are in Plan B yet. It is not Plan B when you know what he is doing day to day and regularly have 'friends' calling to tell you his fogbabble and speak on his behalf.

You will feel so much better when you are really in Plan B.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/30/17 11:23 PM
You need to tell these people that you don't want to hear anything about your WH. What can you do to close these Plan B holes?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/31/17 12:13 PM
Thank you Unwritten and Brain Hurts. I will tell everyone to stop telling me about him. After I changed my number, it was all quiet for a while. But he started this campaign of trying to get people to get to me when he went into hospital this week.

I know from reading other threads that it is common for WSs to keep on saying "how am I supposed to prove that I have changed if she won't talk to me?" - and I am getting that message from people a lot. I feel like I should respond so that I emphasise that if he can demonstrate that he is ready for NC with OW and has implemented extraordinary precautions then we can talk. And that the reason there is no contact between us is because he has done nothing at all to show any sign of change. But I guess these interactions do undermine plan B.

He is leaving the country at the end of April. And when we move to the neighbouring country next month, everything will be a lot easier to manage.

One question: I want to establish a parenting plan and maintenance arrangement for the children (these are legal steps that accompany separation in the country we are moving to) and get it agreed in writing before he leaves at the end of April. My lawyer will initiate the communication with him via email, but should I make clear when I start the process that I do not want to see or talk to him directly? I am wondering if it will be possible to avoid.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 03/31/17 05:54 PM
Didn't you write in your Plan B letter on what he needs to do?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/01/17 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Didn't you write in your Plan B letter on what he needs to do?

Hi Brain Hurts, yes. I followed the template plan B letter. But he is determined to ignore it. I have also sent him the checklist from SAA for ending an affair several times. The last time was after he broke into the house (after the start of plan B) trying to get me to agree that he would move back in after he completed his last trip abroad for work.

Since I threw him out on February 21st, he has been trying everything possible to manipulate and regain control. Although he was travelling for four weeks so I am only really seeing the manipulation up close from this week. He refuses to honor the arrangements set out in the plan B letter - especially with respect to the kids. For every boundary I set, he tries to evade/ignore it. I said he can see the kids once a week on Saturday and that he must arrange a time in advance with our nanny who will bring the children to him. He did that once, on the first Saturday. But then he started coming at random times (always with reasons - in between his travelling), then he unilaterally decided Sunday was his day for seeing the kids not Saturday, then he tries to call to speak to them at random times (when I had told him I find it too painful for him to disrupt our family home life in that way). He tells everyone that he doesn't know what he is supposed to do in order to come back home. He says if I won't talk to him he can't show that he has broken up with OW. And coerces people to act on his behalf to berate me and wear me down - all with the aim of getting back into the house. I have told people not to pass on these messages. But he just gets different people to contact me.

He seems so desperate to come home, but too arrogant/entitled to exhibit a hint of remorse for what has happened or willingness to demonstrate change (he is happy to say "I've changed! You just can't see because I'm not in the house"). He is acting as though he is waiting for ME to try to win HIM back - and that is a message others acting on his behalf have reinforced. It is really a bizarre situation and I would appreciate any advice from anyone that might have come across this type of personality before. I am just standing my ground, being like a broken record about ending the affair and no contact with OW, and sending the SAA checklist to all of these people who keep asking me what he is supposed to do. I don't know if it will ever sink in though.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/01/17 09:03 PM
Sorry, I have just realised the question related to the parenting plan comment. Yes, I wrote about contact with the kids in the plan B letter - but the arrangements only apply to the situation we are in now where we are both in the same country. When he moves to his new job at the end of this month, he will be a four hour flight away. And i am concerned that without a legal agreement that specifies that he is supposed to actually continue to see the kids regularly, he will make a unilateral decision to fly to see them very infrequently - which would be a terrible shock for the kids who are used to living with two parents full time and would leave me being a single mum of four. I do not want to give him the opportunity to just abandon his responsibilities like that.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/01/17 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He seems so desperate to come home, but too arrogant/entitled to exhibit a hint of remorse for what has happened or willingness to demonstrate change (he is happy to say "I've changed! You just can't see because I'm not in the house"). He is acting as though he is waiting for ME to try to win HIM back - and that is a message others acting on his behalf have reinforced. It is really a bizarre situation and I would appreciate any advice from anyone that might have come across this type of personality before. I am just standing my ground, being like a broken record about ending the affair and no contact with OW, and sending the SAA checklist to all of these people who keep asking me what he is supposed to do. I don't know if it will ever sink in though.


He sounds very like my WXH. I wonder if this is something all serial cheaters share? My XH has invented a different version of reality where he is the victim. Indeed he tells everyone that I 'abandoned the family'. Luckily the children are older and completely ignore him. In the court room he has contradicted/yelled at the judge and been escorted out at gunpoint. And yet he is a successful businessman.

I recommend you not expect him to have a sudden blinding moment when it hits him that either he changes or he loses you. He is going to try everything else first. You might want to write to Dr Harley and get his take on this.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/02/17 04:36 AM
You should tell these people that you gave him the road home and it's all in the letter you gave him and he knows that. Then tell them that you're trying to heal from all of his affairs and SSL that you would appreciate them to respect your wishes and not to talk about him with you again. When will your lawyer be putting a parenting plan together and send to him?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/02/17 04:43 AM
chalkncheese, what are doing for your self-care? Being a BW and a Mother of four is very stressful, so what are you able to do? What plans do you have?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/02/17 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
You should tell these people that you gave him the road home and it's all in the letter you gave him and he knows that. Then tell them that you're trying to heal from all of his affairs and SSL that you would appreciate them to respect your wishes and not to talk about him with you again. When will your lawyer be putting a parenting plan together and send to him?

Thank you Brain Hurts. After I wrote the replies yesterday, WH contacted my sister and again repeated that he doesn't know what he is supposed to do. So I took the decision to send him a direct mail with the subject "Here is what we need to do". I just don't want this crazy circular arguing with so many people involved to go on any longer - and there is a slight concern in my mind that perhaps he really didn't understand the specific actions required by reading the SAA checklist since English is not his first language, and the checklist does require a bit of thought to translate into really specific actionable steps.

In my email, I made clear that I will not accept to reconcile with him unless we affair proof our marriage. I explained that means totally changing our lifestyle so that we eliminate risk of cheating. I included a list of example extraordinary precautions that we would need to implement in order to affair proof our marriage because I know he would never make this leap by himself. He does not even nearly understand that total, fundamental lifestyle change is what is required.

Here is the list I put together:
[START OF QUOTE]
We need to be together 24/7 - at least until we build some trust.
We never spend a night apart ever.
We need to work together (either we start our own business or you employ me in your office in New Job City) and travel together to work in one car.
We need to spend our leisure time together doing things we both want to do.
It means never having friends who are women and never spending any time one-on-one with a woman - regardless of whether it is for work or not.
It means not going out without me. If you want to drink with men, you invite them home so that you are with me at the same time.
It means NEVER being alone with a phone so that you have the freedom to make a call to a woman in private.
It means deleting all contacts of women from anywhere (especially Current Home Country) and changing all your numbers so they can't find you.
It means not having a smart phone. No whatsapp, no facebook, no other types of messaging. Calls only. With the itemised phone bill emailed to me.
It means giving me access to all your email accounts (after changing ALL your email addresses so that no women you already know can contact you), skype and anything else.
It means me being able to see every single thing you write to anyone ever, hear every conversation, and monitor all your internet usage.
It means we only have one bank account and I can see all money you spend on anything ever.

And these are just what I can think of off the top of my head........we would need to sit down and systematically think of all the possible risky situations that could lead you to develop an inappropriate friendship with a woman that could lead to an affair and then develop a specific plan to address that risk. We would need to do that for all aspects of life, all our time, and all hypothetical situations from now until the end of our lives. And get a good marriage counsellor to guide us through the recovery process after we have secured our marriage from risk.
[END OF QUOTE]

So now that I have sent this mail, and know he will now be aware of how extreme the changes he needs to make are, I think he might back off a bit and focus on his move at the end of the month. And that will give me the peace and quiet to look after myself and the kids better. (Or else it will prompt another round of abusive calls and messages from his family and friends telling me how unreasonable I am not to give my serial cheating, pathologically lying husband freedom.....)

I haven't been great with self-care to be honest. I try to stay in the house as much as possible to avoid any contact with OW or people that know her. After the police incident, I know she can't do anything physically to me, but it is still not a nice experience to think I might have to see her. We live in a tiny place and it is impossible to go to the one supermarket without bumping into four to five people I know. It is indeed extremely stressful. So I am putting all my efforts into trying to plan for our move to the neighbouring country in mid-June. Looking for houses, planning for activities the kids will be able to take up, thinking about nice ways to decorate my new home, etc. I feel in limbo, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. And after my husband moves at the end of this month, stress will be considerably reduced.


Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/02/17 09:32 AM
PS. I have an appointment with my lawyer on Thursday to discuss the parenting plan and maintenance order. I think I will then need to find a social worker to liaise with my husband and I. I just hope they will be able to do the liaison speedily so that we get things sorted before my husband moves country.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/02/17 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
He sounds very like my WXH. I wonder if this is something all serial cheaters share? My XH has invented a different version of reality where he is the victim. Indeed he tells everyone that I 'abandoned the family'.....
I recommend you not expect him to have a sudden blinding moment when it hits him that either he changes or he loses you. He is going to try everything else first. You might want to write to Dr Harley and get his take on this.

Thanks a lot Living Well. I went to read your posts because your experience sounds similar. It's so reassuring to realise I am not the only one dealing with such weirdness. I know for sure that he will continue hanging onto his SSL unless it becomes clear to him that he has been backed into a corner. On the few occasions where I have managed to "win" a battle of wills, it has been because I have put my foot down so hard and refused to accept his manipulations. (One example was when I took him away for my weekend of Plan A. I refused to depart the house without him leaving one of his phones at home and me keeping the other one in my handbag. It was a 3 hour battle with him screaming and shouting and stomping around. But he eventually agreed. And we left and had a nice weekend) So I know he can give in, and that when he does he is suddenly transformed into a calm and nice person, but only if I fight with everything i have. And how can I do that every day for the rest of my life?!

Like your XWH, mine also does not want to leave his marriage at all. He doesn't see any reason why he should - but then why would he?! It has always been a great life for him! I also don't want to divorce. I love him very deeply. But I have reached the point now where I am not prepared to accept anything less than fundamental change. So if he is not going to do that - and all the signs now are that he isn't - then I will just focus on my new life alone with the kids and let him move on with his. I won't close the door on him should he ever wake up at some point in the future. But I am not holding out hope (I'm trying not to at least....)
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/05/17 10:45 AM
Could someone please advise me on what to do when WH does not respect boundaries in Plan B? I am struggling because we need to exchange documentation with regards to movement across the border, visas and medical information for the children, but he does not respect arrangements made with the IM for delivering his part of the documentation - and this behaviour really disturbs me just when I am starting to feel calm.

Here's an example. I asked IM to contact him to request that he delivers a letter giving me permission to take my baby daughter to be vaccinated (a requirement for me to get across the border to the clinic; he needs to do a new one each time). He replied saying yes he will. Yesterday, he told the IM he will drop the letter at the gate of our house in the evening. He did not turn up. Then he sent another message saying he would come today, but not giving a time. So now I have been in limbo since yesterday wondering when the letter is going to arrive and worrying if he will try to break into the house again - which totally ruins my sense of peace and calm. Every car sound outside the house is making me anxious.

How do I deal with this situation? He does not respect appointments at all and does not respect that this is messing up my time. Or maybe he does understand that it is messing me up, and he is just trying to control a situation he has no control over. When I packed his clothes and threw him out, he did the same thing: saying he would come at a certain time and then not coming, eventually turning up at a random time with no warning. But at least I had the power to leave his suitcases out in the rain as a consequence of him not coming when he said he would. In the current situation, I need him to bring the letter, so I don't have any way to enforce boundaries at all.

Maybe there is no way around it until we move to a new place and he can't just turn up because he won't know where we live.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/05/17 02:14 PM
Do you have a lawyer yet? You might have to go through your lawyer and I know unfortunately it will cost you more, but your WH is such an entitled WH that he isn't going to respect your requests until he needs something.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/07/17 10:44 AM
Hi Brain Hurts, yes I have a lawyer. I went to see him yesterday and then had an appointment with a social worker afterwards. Because of jurisdictional issues, the lawyer cannot do much until I move with the children to the neighbouring country. However, the social worker was extremely helpful and is going to draft a contract governing financial issues and visitation and will do the liaision between my husband and I. I feel a lot better knowing that there is a clear route to sort things out.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/12/17 08:06 PM
Just got served a summons. Apparently OW has filed a civil suit against me for defamation resulting from my exposure letters to her facebook friends - which were quite innocuous private messages to 20 or so people using the template here. She really is crazy. I already have a criminal case against her because she assulted me in public. So on the advice of my lawyer, I will go to the police tomorrow morning and show them the summons, explaining that her harassment of me is continuing and asking them to set a new court date for that case...and then see if she still thinks it is a good idea to try to take me to court for defamation (which would result in a whole lot more embarrassment for her and WH as all the details and evidence of the affair would be exposed).
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/12/17 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
So on the advice of my lawyer, I will go to the police tomorrow morning and show them the summons, explaining that her harassment of me is continuing and asking them to set a new court date for that case...and then see if she still thinks it is a good idea to try to take me to court for defamation (which would result in a whole lot more embarrassment for her and WH as all the details and evidence of the affair would be exposed).
Tell her lawyers to bring it on!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/12/17 08:17 PM
I feel really frustrated that doing nothing to anybody - just standing up for myself when attacked from multiple directions - somehow makes me into the bad guy. I can't understand how OW manages to get people to think she is a victim. I just can't work it out. I guess she has way better skills at manipulation than I could ever hope to have.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/12/17 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Tell her lawyers to bring it on!

Thanks SugarCane! To be honest i am quite exhilarated at the thought of being able to present all the evidence in court! laugh
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/12/17 08:47 PM
I think you should sell tickets!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/12/17 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
I think you should sell tickets!

Hahaha! I am making a looooong witness list (all the people who have ever told me they thought something was going on - his workmates, his beer drinking buddies, her friends who have been sending me abusive threatening messages, etc etc), which I guess will have a similar audience-boosting effect smile
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/13/17 06:28 PM
So what are you going to do?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/14/17 11:49 AM
I spent the day yesterday at the police and with lawyers. I asked the police to reopen the criminal case against her for threatening me, so she will now be going to court for that. We have to respond to the summons for the civil suit she has launched within 14 days and I have instructed a lawyer to do so. There really is no case at all since the exposure letters asked for support for my marriage rather than insulting anyone, and she (OW) seems not to be aware that I only sent 18 private messages and that any additional circulation of those messages was done by her friends not me. She also does not seem to know that two of her "best friends" responded to the messages confirming the affair. But anyway, I am quite happy to have the opportunity to go to court about it.

My lawyer advised me to call my husband to inform him that he will be a witness in this case and that spousal privilege prevents him from saying anything against me. I asked to meet him on her (my lawyer's) advice. But after trying to evade the question of when we could meet for a little while ("i'll call you back", "i have to check my calendar", "i will send an email to the IM", etc, anything to avoid being put on the spot) he hung up! He is such a control freak that he cannot even accept for me to suggest a meeting without him being able to control everything about it.

He then requested the phone number of my lawyer from my IM, and then he called my lawyer to blame the entire situation on ME!!!! Apparently he went into a tirade of fog babble about how i am victimising OW, how I reported her to the police, reported her to the nursing council, etc, totally ignoring the fact that she assaulted me. He then told my lawyer there is no way he would be contributing to my cost of the legal action (brought against me by OW) since it is all my own fault. He told her that I was involving OW in our personal issues and that we should just meet and discuss divorce if that is what I want. He seems to keep on trying to make me divorce him, but not doing anything to indicate he wants to divorce me.

It was quite depressing and hurtful to hear how deep in the fog he is. I suspect that he has given OW the money she needed to launch the court action.

Since I have already instructed a lawyer in the neighbouring country to draft a financial agreement and parenting plan, I am focusing on getting that sorted out by the end of next week to make sure the kids and I are protected - and to make my husband wake up to the fact that when he leaves the country at the end of this month he will be going ALONE. He still doesn't really get that we are separated. I get the impression he is waiting for me to beg him to come back...and he thinks because he is leaving the country at the end of the month that I will somehow cave in and allow him to come home while keeping his girlfriend and SSL.

I have also contacted a new school for the kids and found a house to move to in June, but I can't sign contracts before we have agreed on the financial arrangement. The social worker I found is a trained mediator and will liaise between us to get an agreement. Even in his deep fog, my husband still seems to be willing to support the family and kids so I hope we will be able to get it signed before he changes.


Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/14/17 11:58 AM
I do think I need a better plan for what to do if my husband refuses to pay the amount in the new financial agreement. It is going to be difficult and expensive to enforce the agreement with him in another country. And he might refuse to fly to where we live to avoid being served a summons at the airport, which would mean he won't see the children.


Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/14/17 12:08 PM
Anyway, I think a lot of things will become clearer/easier once my husband has left the country and spent a few weeks away from OW. He is very deep in the fog right now and lying to everyone, not just me.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/14/17 12:29 PM
I am really shocked at how exposing the affair suddenly reveals all this disgusting ugly behaviour of my husband. How can he have been pretending to be a normal person all this time before i found out about the affair? He did quite a good job of pretending to care about me and the kids, despite the fact that the affair has been going on for more than 3 years.

So if the fog babble is SO bad now, how was he able to hide it before? Has he just stopped trying to pretend? Has the addiction got stronger now that I am fighting it? Is it just that I know how to interpret fogbabble now thanks to MB? Or is it the act of bringing the affair into the light that exposes the ugliness and delusion of the whole situation so it has seemed to get worse so that it can get better?
Posted By: markos Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/14/17 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
And he might refuse to fly to where we live to avoid being served a summons at the airport, which would mean he won't see the children.

That can be a very peaceful and helpful thing for the children.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/14/17 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am really shocked at how exposing the affair suddenly reveals all this disgusting ugly behaviour of my husband. How can he have been pretending to be a normal person all this time before i found out about the affair? He did quite a good job of pretending to care about me and the kids, despite the fact that the affair has been going on for more than 3 years.

So if the fog babble is SO bad now, how was he able to hide it before? Has he just stopped trying to pretend? Has the addiction got stronger now that I am fighting it? Is it just that I know how to interpret fogbabble now thanks to MB? Or is it the act of bringing the affair into the light that exposes the ugliness and delusion of the whole situation so it has seemed to get worse so that it can get better?

I think you know how to identify it now. But more importantly, he had control of everything before and now he has lost control. That makes way wards a tad bit crazy. So you now have wayward fogbabble + crazy to deal with.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/14/17 03:07 PM
I just want to commend your attitude about OWs frivolous lawsuit. Most BS's hear the word lawsuit and panic, and want to stop exposure or cower to the crazy way wards to keep the peace. Your *bring it* attitude is refreshing. You are a strong woman!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/15/17 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
I just want to commend your attitude about OWs frivolous lawsuit. Most BS's hear the word lawsuit and panic, and want to stop exposure or cower to the crazy way wards to keep the peace. Your *bring it* attitude is refreshing. You are a strong woman!

Thank you unwritten! That's a nice compliment! I have spent the past two years being sued and threatened by crazy people for work (i took over a failing company and had to terminate a whole lot of dubious supplier contracts), so I am not scared of being put on a witness stand - actually, I like having the opportunity to demonstrate my integrity and good character smile...and I find calmness and lack of fear of threats makes crazy people look and act a thousand times more crazy.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/15/17 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am really shocked at how exposing the affair suddenly reveals all this disgusting ugly behaviour of my husband. How can he have been pretending to be a normal person all this time before i found out about the affair? He did quite a good job of pretending to care about me and the kids, despite the fact that the affair has been going on for more than 3 years.

So if the fog babble is SO bad now, how was he able to hide it before? Has he just stopped trying to pretend? Has the addiction got stronger now that I am fighting it? Is it just that I know how to interpret fogbabble now thanks to MB? Or is it the act of bringing the affair into the light that exposes the ugliness and delusion of the whole situation so it has seemed to get worse so that it can get better?

I think you know how to identify it now. But more importantly, he had control of everything before and now he has lost control. That makes way wards a tad bit crazy. So you now have wayward fogbabble + crazy to deal with.

Yes, I think that makes sense. He spent the whole of yesterday night telling his friend from home (who then told me) that he really wants to talk to me to show how he has changed. I said to the friend that I don't believe a word of it. But if he really has broken up with OW and changed, then it should be easy for him to show me the evidence. I said if he has the evidence to show he has done what I have asked (from the SAA checklist for ending an affair), then I will be happy to meet him and talk.

So has he made any attempt whatsoever to contact me?! No. I had to wait 3 hours this morning for him to pick up the kids. He can't even make the effort to drag himself off his friend's sofa for his one day a week with them. And not a single indication that he has any intention of talking to me/apologising/demonstrating any change whatsoever.

I think he wants other people to believe that I am the one refusing to meet him. Or he still thinks it should be ME begging him to come home. Or some combination of the two. I am married to the most egotistical, selfish, entitled man that has ever existed.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/15/17 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
And he might refuse to fly to where we live to avoid being served a summons at the airport, which would mean he won't see the children.

That can be a very peaceful and helpful thing for the children.

Thank you Markos. Yes, I will try to think of it like that.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/15/17 07:34 PM
His actions definitely don't show any kind of remorse and Dr. Harley says WHs should show remorse as "hat in hand" or they aren't really remorseful at all. I think your WH falls in this category of not being sorry at all and that you'll need to stay on this path.

I agree with unwritten that you are doing great with all the class that you show.

Also, I worry about all the holes in your Plan B when others try and talk to you about your WH. What can you do to tighten this up?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/17/17 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
His actions definitely don't show any kind of remorse and Dr. Harley says WHs should show remorse as "hat in hand" or they aren't really remorseful at all. I think your WH falls in this category of not being sorry at all and that you'll need to stay on this path.

I agree with unwritten that you are doing great with all the class that you show.

Also, I worry about all the holes in your Plan B when others try and talk to you about your WH. What can you do to tighten this up?

Thanks Brain Hurts. I really understand Dr Harley's point about serial cheaters having to reach "rock bottom" before they can change. My WH is definitely far from rock bottom, and I don't know if he will get there.

Yes, it is true my Plan B seems to have lots of holes. I think there are a few reasons: 1) we live in a really small country with about 200 international people, so I can't really go anywhere without someone trying to update me on what he has been doing; 2) he has been doing such an active campaign of telling mutual friends that he wants to come home that they feel they are "helping" our marriage by trying to talk us both into sitting down together; and 3) all this police and court stuff has been quite dramatic and, since we are in the peculiar situation where he is the boss of the person who is threatening me, the to and fro of information about these incidents and consequences has been impossible to avoid.

He is leaving the country to start his new job in another much larger country at the end of this month, so things will be a lot easier from then onwards. And I think it has also now become clear to our friends and relatives that when WH says he wants to come home, he doesn't really mean it since he is clearly not prepared to put in the tiniest bit of effort to change anything (and, on the contrary, he expects me to run around apologising and begging him to come back....).
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/18/17 01:50 PM
OW's lawsuit seems to have provided me with an ideal opportunity to extend my exposure at their employer (which didn't seem to do much before apart from creating gossip - WH was too good at explaining himself). Since I am an accompanying spouse of an expatriate employee, the employer has a legal and moral duty of care towards me and our children, since we are only in the country because of his work and have no right to stay here otherwise, and we are being harassed by a member of their staff (OW). Since my WH is the boss of the country office, and has failed to take appropriate action to follow up on my reports of threats and harassment by his team member (OW), even going so far as to deny that she was involved in the incident she was arrested for, I have asked my lawyer to write to the company highlighting this breach of duty of care and asking that the escalating harassment be properly investigated and dealt with. When WH and OW suddenly find themselves having to face a disciplinary hearing because of their treatment of me, I think it might put a stop to the harassment by lawsuit - and may have the added benefit of shaking them both up a bit.

The best form of defence is attack!

Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/18/17 02:00 PM
You are doing a great job.

Your WW is following the text book script by the way. I hope you have some savings because the next chapter is called 'How to get back control by cutting off support'.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/18/17 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
You are doing a great job.

Your WH is following the text book script by the way. I hope you have some savings because the next chapter is called 'How to get back control by cutting off support'.

Thanks Living Well - it is so reassuring to know he is textbook. It really gives me the strength to work through it all. I have already preempted the cutting off support thing by getting a social worker to draft us a parenting contract and financial support agreement, which should be ready to sign by the end of this week. He might not sign of course, but that will just provide more evidence of neglect to submit to his employer and present in the court case laugh. I have all of our joint savings in my bank account and all of our joint assets are in my name (if I was the evil person he is telling everyone I am, why would he have trusted me to handle ALL our finances for so many years?!), so all good on that front. I also earn a good salary so will be able to support the family with or without his income - although I really hate the idea that he will be free to have fun with his salary while I am stuck with four kids and a full time job.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/18/17 02:15 PM
He really has zero power in this situation AT ALL. But somehow still seems to act like he is one with the control?! I think my being so nice to him all these years (because that is what you do when you love someone) has made him way too big headed and he has forgotten what kind of woman he married. I am not trapped here. I chose to stay married to him. I chose to forgive him for his past behaviour. And I chose to build a future with him. I was silly enough to think that what we had been through in the past would help us avoid the same problems in the future. But thanks to MB i now understand the opposite is true. We are still suffering now because I did not insist on EPs, I just assumed that the terrible experience of the OC would scare him into never cheating again. I really wish someone had pointed me in the direction of this site 7 years ago!!! But at least I am here now.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/18/17 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by living_well
You are doing a great job.

Your WH is following the text book script by the way. I hope you have some savings because the next chapter is called 'How to get back control by cutting off support'.

Thanks Living Well - it is so reassuring to know he is textbook. It really gives me the strength to work through it all. I have already preempted the cutting off support thing by getting a social worker to draft us a parenting contract and financial support agreement, which should be ready to sign by the end of this week. He might not sign of course, but that will just provide more evidence of neglect to submit to his employer and present in the court case laugh. I have all of our joint savings in my bank account and all of our joint assets are in my name (if I was the evil person he is telling everyone I am, why would he have trusted me to handle ALL our finances for so many years?!), so all good on that front. I also earn a good salary so will be able to support the family with or without his income - although I really hate the idea that he will be free to have fun with his salary while I am stuck with four kids and a full time job.

PS. And the rental income from our property we rent out also comes straight to me smile
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/18/17 06:31 PM
awesome
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/19/17 05:34 AM
My WH is really stepping up the pressure on mutual friends to convince me to allow him back in the house - without doing anything from the SAA checklist or agreeing to EPs. I spent 3 hours last night fending off messages from one of his school friends who says that because WH has deleted his facebook account (2 months after I asked him to) and changed his phone number that he is a changed man. He (the friend) says WH is "tired of separation". He has an amazing ability to totally ignore the fact that I am currently facing a court case brought by HIS GIRLFRIEND and that just four days ago he phoned my lawyer to shout at her about how the whole thing is my fault and that he wouldn't "allow" me to use any family money to defend myself against the charges.

Is there any example of a man who is so selfish, arrogant and entitled ever waking up and realising the pain he has caused his wife? I just can't imagine it happening. It would require an entire personality transplant.

Also, can someone for whom lies and misdirection are a way of life ever learn to be honest? How would he go about learning that if he has no experience of telling the truth about anything ever?


Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/19/17 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Is there any example of a man who is so selfish, arrogant and entitled ever waking up and realising the pain he has caused his wife? I just can't imagine it happening. It would require an entire personality transplant.

Also, can someone for whom lies and misdirection are a way of life ever learn to be honest? How would he go about learning that if he has no experience of telling the truth about anything ever?

My WXH did in fact wake up and realise the pain he had caused me. It happened when I confronted him after discovery. It lasted about a week

Then he steadily moved himself back into his false belief safe zone where everything was my fault and that I had 'abandoned the family' (his words to the court).

I believe that he could not live with the feeling of guilt. His self worth depended on his needing to believe he had done nothing wrong.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/19/17 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Is there any example of a man who is so selfish, arrogant and entitled ever waking up and realising the pain he has caused his wife? I just can't imagine it happening. It would require an entire personality transplant.

Also, can someone for whom lies and misdirection are a way of life ever learn to be honest? How would he go about learning that if he has no experience of telling the truth about anything ever?

My WXH did in fact wake up and realise the pain he had caused me. It happened when I confronted him after discovery. It lasted about a week

Then he steadily moved himself back into his false belief safe zone where everything was my fault and that I had 'abandoned the family' (his words to the court).

I believe that he could not live with the feeling of guilt. His self worth depended on his needing to believe he had done nothing wrong.

Thanks Living Well. That does sound similar to how I believe my husband reacts too. I know people have said on my thread in the past that there is no point trying to analyse what WSs may or may not be thinking, but i find it so useful on this journey where I am learning so much about how human beings (myself included) behave to hear others' observations and experiences. It is as if I am just learning to make sense of life after 38 years in the dark. Thank you for sharing.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/19/17 04:01 PM
So what are you going to differently when someone tries to talk with you for 3 hours about your WH? How can you fix these holes in your Plan B?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/19/17 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I spent 3 hours last night fending off messages from one of his school friends who says that because WH has deleted his facebook account (2 months after I asked him to) and changed his phone number that he is a changed man. He (the friend) says WH is "tired of separation".

Why on earth would you engage in a 3 hour conversation with someone about WH's fog babble???

Really, you yourself are responsible for your own boundaries. If a 'friend' tries to engage you in conversation about WH, ANY conversation about WH, you politely say "I'm sorry, I do not wish to discuss WH as it is too painful for me. If you insist on discussing him, I will have to end this conversation." And follow through. End the conversation. Walk away, hang up the phone, stop texting back, block that 'friend' from your phone if you need to.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/20/17 06:26 AM
Hi Brain Hurts and Unwritten, thank you - I guess you are totally right. I didn't think of it like that. I suppose I just wanted to respect the fact that this guy is trying to help us. It is kind of him to give his time and energy to trying to help us solve our problems and bring us back together, so I wanted to show him courtesy and respect by explaining why I don't agree with his perspective that closing a facebook account only demonstrates change, emphasising again that fidelity means actually not cheating (not just saying you are not going to cheat and hiding it), that communication and trust is impossible with a pathological liar and serial cheater, and reinforcing the message I wrote in my Plan B letter (that when WH can provide evidence that the affair is over and that it is impossible for him and OW to contact each other, then we can talk about how to recover our marriage including extra extra EPs).

The conversation went like this:
FRIEND: WH has really changed. He wants to come home. There is no OW. He is alone.
ME: Great. If there is no OW, it should be easy to provide evidence, as I have asked him for many times.
FRIEND: How can he show you he has changed if you won't talk to him? Communication is the essential first step of everything.
ME: Communication is pointless with a pathological liar because his words mean nothing. I am not looking for behaviour changes, I am waiting for actual hard evidence that the affair is over.
FRIEND: What evidence can he show you?
ME: As i have said a thousand times, he needs to close all social media accounts, change all phone numbers (and not give the new ones to OW), change all email addresses including work, get rid of his smart phones, close his bank accounts and open a new single joint account, give me his bank statements and phone records so that I can see how much money and time he has spent on OW, make a plan for never being apart from me overnight, etc. This is not a check-box exercise. The idea is to actually make it impossible for him to have an affair.
FRIEND: But you can't treat him like a child. No man would accept that.
ME: That's fine if he doesn't accept that. That is his choice. I am telling you the only way I could conceive of being in this marriage is if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to cheat.
FRIEND: But he says he has changed. I really believe he is not with that woman. How will you know that if you don't talk to him?

ETC ETC ETC. Round and round and round.

But I guess I have already said all this stuff so I don't need to repeat it again. I will tell him to stop messaging me.

It's funny that even though I love my plan and feel that I am going in the right direction, it is so easy to get pulled away and start wandering off the path. I really appreciate that you guys help keep me focused on put me back on track. Thank you!
Posted By: markos Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/20/17 01:59 PM
That's a very giving thing to do but I can't imagine that in your present emotional state it feels good to give three hours of your time to try to change someone's perspective. It's just going to make you more miserable and is not likely to affect him. Don't sacrifice your Plan B in an attempt to try to save someone from an inferior perspective. Plan B doesn't work if you follow it, and three hours of triggers and reminders about the pain your husband is causing you are definitely not following Plan B!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/20/17 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
It's funny that even though I love my plan and feel that I am going in the right direction, it is so easy to get pulled away and start wandering off the path. I really appreciate that you guys help keep me focused on put me back on track. Thank you!

What is notable to me is how easy it is for "friends" to be so cavalier about your life when it is not their ox getting gored!! Hang in there, chalk!! You are doing great. smile
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/20/17 04:40 PM
So what are you going to do to close the holes?
Posted By: apples123 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/20/17 07:17 PM
Time to change your phone number.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/21/17 06:47 AM
Thank you Markos, Melody, BrainHurts and apples, you are all right. I have been letting way too much stuff get through to me. I think my husband has been stepping up the pressure because he is leaving the country in 9 days. After that point, he will be very far away from us and it will be a huge relief.

He got yet ANOTHER lawyer to phone me yesterday (I feel like i now know all the lawyers in the country) - not on my own phone, on my nanny's number - to ask me to come and sit in a room with him to sort out our problems. I again explained clearly that there is no problem to "sort out". My husband is having an affair and I have said very clearly I will not see or speak to him until he can prove the affair is over and that he has put in place precautions to ensure that it is impossible for he and OW to contact each other.

I then forwarded her (the lawyer) the Plan B letter and two additional emails I had sent through our IM with the SAA checklist and a draft list of EPs (sent when he was telling everyone he didn't know what I meant when I said "impossible" for contact to happen).

He wants other people to tell me I am wrong. That I can't keep him outside the house. That it is unreasonable for a wife to demand bank statements and phone records from her husband. It is really fortunate I am a stubborn person (and that MB makes so much logical sense) because I have been under such sustained pressure change my stance that I have had to really interrogate the approach. But it just serves to strengthen my resolve.

Once this legal stuff is over and my husband is gone I will change my phone number again.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/21/17 07:39 AM
WH just brought police to the house! To tell me I am not allowed to not let him in because he is my husband.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/21/17 09:19 AM
I think he paid them. I am now going with my lawyer to get a restraining order since he threatened me in front of the police - and actually had them convey the message to me that he will be forced to take the law into his own hands if I continue to refuse him entry to the house (i am not refusing him entry, I am just asking that he pick the kids up at the time he says he will, not 3 hours later....). This is the most bizarre turn of events. WH and OW keep on providing me more and more opportunities to take action against them.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/21/17 12:06 PM
We went to the police to hear the story but they seem set on organising a "mediation" between my husband and I this afternoon. The deputy police commissioner (who seems to be a drinking buddy of my husband's new flatmate, a doctor friend) believes he has a talent for saving marriages. My lawyer advised that we do not argue with him and instead just let him feel like he is solving the problem and it will give my husband a chance to demonstrate to everyone why he is unable to prove the affair is over and why he is refusing to implement EPs.

The reason he bought the police to the house to start with is because he believes i have no right to ask that he picks up the children at the specific time that he said he was going to pick them up - and further believes that I have no right to keep him outside of the house while he continues with his affair (or continues to refuse to prove it is finished, which is the same thing).

I have no idea what he thought it would achieve: so if the police say he must return home, what kind of relationship with his wife would be waiting for him? That i would stay married and agree to his supremacy in the family because the police said so? And I would give up trying to make him behave better?

It is as if he believes I do not have free will. Or that I do not have the right to make decisions about my own life.

He told the police that I have a secret plan to divorce him and that I am gathering evidence. It is so bizarre that he thinks the fact that he got another woman pregnant and that I am raising that child was not MORE than sufficient evidence for anyone anywhere that he has not been the best husband. If I wanted to divorce him, i would have run away years ago. I just want him to be a better man. Although it looks extremely unlikely that that is a plausible outcome of this saga......i feel my lovebank balance draining really low now....
Posted By: markos Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/21/17 01:07 PM
Wow this sounds incredibly abusive on the part of the police. I think with the police against me I'd move out of that town.

I bet anything that police commissioner with a "talent for saving marriages" is a wayward himself and will be happy to tell you junk like the idea that marriages require people to trust without verifying anything.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/21/17 03:36 PM
Wow so sorry chalkncheese.

When will you be moving?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/21/17 04:54 PM
***EDIT***
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/21/17 10:48 PM
Move to a hotel for the next nine days, or stay with a friend.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/22/17 12:29 AM
I am feeling very concerned about your safety. It is not the job of the police to mediate your marriage, I am unnerved that they would be involved in this way.

I can see your WH's desperate attempts to control ramping up as the countdown to his leaving begins. Scary stuff.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/22/17 02:56 AM
Thanks Markos, BrainHurts, HappyHeart and Unwritten. The "mediation" served to make my WH look like an idiot in front of the police and my lawyer - so I guess that was a positive outcome. His fogbabble was obvious and incriminating, so now I have zero worries about the defamation suit since he has given us all the material we need to get it thrown out. It was quite traumatic to have to sit opposite him and hear him spouting this stuff about how I am "manipulative" and retell the stories of all the "awful" things i have done (collecting evidence of the affair from his cell phone, exposing the affair, reporting assault to the police, reporting OW to the nursing council for her threatening behaviour, etc).

I don't want to say what country I am in because it will immediately identify me to anyone that might be reading (and i have been recommending this site to people). Suffice to say that is generally how the police works in smaller African countries. It does sound bad, but I would like to emphasise that it is possible to use the systems to get justice, you just have to be able to draw on local relationships and understand that the way procedures are implemented depends on both visible and hidden factors. Even in corrupt places, people do still have to officially pretend they are not corrupt (because otherwise enemies could use their corruption against them for political gains) - and if you are someone who has nothing that can be held against them at all (as I am) it is quite difficult for an official not to do what they are supposed to. Corruption feeds off the idea that both the corrupter and the corruptee are doing something wrong, so are partners in crime. I am not a partner in crime.

I have kept my lawyer (who is really good) with me at all times and documented everything. Since the police commissioner was trying to tell me in front of her that I had to talk to him because my husband was threatening "to take the law into his own hands", which would obviously confer some responsibility on the police to protect me, I feel that I am relatively safe from their abuse, although still not comfortable staying here.

I have contacted my husband's employer, an American non-governmental organisation, and provided them with a detailed timeline of all events and asked them what they are going to do about it. I have a lot more confidence in the internal policies and procedures of a US government funded organisation than I do of the legal system here. Since I now have this documented evidence that I am asking for their support and protection as an expatriate spouse with four small children who has been subjected to escalating harassment and whose husband is leaving the country in a few days, I think they will step up their protection of me, especially now that my husband has been replaced as the local country director by an American lady.

My resident's permit here is under the US embassy, so I am also considering writing to the security officer to make them aware of the situation now that the police are involved. They might be able to give me an embassy security guard for my home.

We are unfortunately stuck here in the country until June, although once my husband has left (by next week) I think my life will be calm again.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/22/17 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by markos
Wow this sounds incredibly abusive on the part of the police. I think with the police against me I'd move out of that town.

I bet anything that police commissioner with a "talent for saving marriages" is a wayward himself and will be happy to tell you junk like the idea that marriages require people to trust without verifying anything.

EVERYONE is wayward here! Hence extremely high HIV rate. Although I have been interested to find out that there is still a sort of "code among thieves" so people generally believe that if a spouse finds out about an affair then it must stop, and the wayward spouse should be appropriately grovelling and remorseful, even if everyone accepts that affairs happen all the time (and believe there is nothing you can do to prevent it).

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/22/17 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by happyheart
Move to a hotel for the next nine days, or stay with a friend.

Hi HappyHeart, my WH today shouted at the police that "I WILL come into my house tonight!!!" so I think leaving might just mean I am giving up my and the kids sanctuary since he would be able to come home unimpeded. At least if I am at home I can keep him out and call the police, security firm and my lawyer if he tries to get in.

I find it so bizarre that he wants to force himself back into the house rather than just grovelling to his wife to make me want him to come back! This is the ultimate in entitlement!!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/22/17 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
I am feeling very concerned about your safety. It is not the job of the police to mediate your marriage, I am unnerved that they would be involved in this way.

I can see your WH's desperate attempts to control ramping up as the countdown to his leaving begins. Scary stuff.

I tried to tell the police commissioner that it was not a police matter but he seemed offended and went into a rant about how the entire focus of policing was on prevention of crimes and since my husband has told him he intends to "take the law into his own hands" it is his responsibility to see that no crime is committed. He also seemed hugely offended that I was not grateful for his PERSONAL intervention, emphasising that he could easily have referred us to the conflict resolution department, but since he had been made aware of the issue by his drinking buddy (my husband's friend who is a doctor here) he was taking a personal interest. He is quite a comedy character and, according to my lawyer (everyone knows everyone here), has been appointed way above his competency level for political reasons.

After explaining that he was a saving marriages expert, he then said he was recently widowed and wanted to find an English wife like me rotflmao
Posted By: WierdSituation Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/22/17 03:16 PM
***EDIT***
Posted By: WierdSituation Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/22/17 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
After explaining that he was a saving marriages expert, he then said he was recently widowed and wanted to find an English wife like me rotflmao


Very simple. His message is clear. He is expressing interest in you. He likes you. He will capitalize on the situation to try to win you. Forget about him being offended. Even forget he is trying to help. He is after you but approaching you from a different angle. He is not there to help your WH. He sees opportunity. He will sleep with you given a chance ...even marry you even though he maybe married to someone. The doctor has told him your situation.

He also says he is a marriage expert wanting to make you think you will buy that he is good for a marriage and accept him later on. Seducing you he is. Be aware of this approach because it exists. I am not saying you should not fall for it. That is your decision.

Sorry vets. I am not a vet but I thought I should chime in on this one.
Posted By: WierdSituation Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/22/17 08:51 PM
***EDIT***
Posted By: WierdSituation Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/22/17 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
EVERYONE is wayward here!

Exactly the reason everyone there is not sympathetic with you but with WH. Stand your ground. They will wish you would rule their country one day because you bring good values and discipline. hurray
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/25/17 05:53 AM
Update from the weekend: WH forced himself in the house on saturday, took keys, padlocks and gate remote, and sat himself on the sofa declaring that he was not leaving his house. I called the police (who didn't turn up), activated the emergency security alarm, and called all three lawyers we have been dealing with. His lawyer managed to talk him into going to her office for another "mediation" so we both left the house in separate cars and then spent six hours in her office.

WH spent the entire time telling her that I am refusing to talk to him, that I don't understand how problems are resolved in Africa, that my friends are evil and giving me bad advice, and that my demands for evidence that his affair is over are unreasonable. I spent most of the time crying because I suddenly now find it traumatising to be in the same vicinity as him and his lies.

At the end of the 6 hours, his lawyer returned the keys and padlocks to me and said we must all go back to the house and she would leave us to talk (she was actually quite supportive of me since she is in recovery in her own marriage after her husband's cheating put her in a mental institution in 2014). So I again had to state that there had been some misunderstanding that my participation in this "mediation" was in no way an indication that I would let him back in the house and that there is no way I am willing to compromise on him having to provide evidence of honesty, openness and no contact with OW before we can move forward at all. He is trying everything possible to avoid any kind of evidence. It depresses me so much. But at least the situation ended with him leaving us alone and me back in the house with the kids, feeling safer since I had made it so widely known that he had forced his way in. If he does it again, i will apply for a restraining order.

The whole weekend was really difficult and my plan B is in tatters. But just a week or so left before he leaves the country.....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/25/17 10:03 AM
WH seems to be running scared today because OW has been arrested and fingerprinted. He has been phoning my two lawyers saying that he will talk to her to drop the civil case against me if I can stop the criminal case for threats against her. Since I showed leniency before and she continued to harass me, i can't really take that route again. The police would think I was an idiot and wouldn't help me again in future if I had more to complain about. But am quite heartened to see that they are finally feeling the pressure. And provides yet more evidence that they are definitely still in contact!!!

He tried to call me just now but I didn't answer. He can put whatever he wants to say in an email in writing so that I add it to my evidence file.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/25/17 10:23 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Update from the weekend: WH forced himself in the house on saturday, took keys, padlocks and gate remote, and sat himself on the sofa declaring that he was not leaving his house.


I'm so sorry you are going through this. It happened to me too.
Stay strong, soon this will be a distant memory.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/25/17 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Update from the weekend: WH forced himself in the house on saturday, took keys, padlocks and gate remote, and sat himself on the sofa declaring that he was not leaving his house.


I'm so sorry you are going through this. It happened to me too.
Stay strong, soon this will be a distant memory.

Thanks a lot Living Well. I am so grateful for the support of this forum. But the events of the weekend have already been overtaken by the new craziness of this week. My husband is now running around like a headless chicken calling everyone he can think of to try and get OW out of trouble (although he only tried to call me directly once ;)). He seems to be acting as intermediary between her lawyer and mine, and is begging everyone to let him talk directly to me - but my lawyer is just batting him away. Amazing how he suddenly knows how to put in effort to achieve things when he has been pretending he doesn't know what effort is when it comes to me and the kids. A single phone call has been way too much effort for him every Saturday to arrange a time to take the kids out. I am so glad for the knowledge of the addictiveness of affairs because otherwise I would be REALLY hurt.

There is no way I am letting these two court cases go now that they have been brought to me - and my previous good natured leniency thrown back in my face. I want the opportunity to claim my costs and damages!!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/25/17 01:55 PM
My father was an alcoholic who died of cirrhosis at age 56. I can absolutely see from my husband's behaviour that an affair generates the same kind of characteristic actions and deception that my family and I lived with my whole childhood and young adult life from my father. It's amazing that only Dr Harley has described affairs in this way.
Posted By: armymama Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/25/17 02:00 PM
Affairs are a way of life for your husband. He has used deception as a means to maintain and enhance his secret second life for years. He's a "headless chicken" now because it is public knowledge that he is not the man he pretends to be.

I hope you are able to move and end the craziness soon.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/25/17 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
Affairs are a way of life for your husband. He has used deception as a means to maintain and enhance his secret second life for years. He's a "headless chicken" now because it is public knowledge that he is not the man he pretends to be.

I hope you are able to move and end the craziness soon.

Thanks Armymama. It is so clear to me now that I can't understand how I believed his rubbish for so long. Although he is an impressively good liar and manipulator. Even my lawyer is impressed.

We will move in June but at least my husband will be gone from the country by the end of this month. That will only leave OW and her friends to deal with!

Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/25/17 04:43 PM
Can you move NOW instead of in June? I am very worried about your safety. WH has lost control and is ramping up his behavior, and the police don't even respond. Others force you to sit down face to face with him for 6 hours for 'mediation.' Is everyone in this whole country in a fog??? It is as if nobody believes that you have free will and control your OWN life. I would take your kids and get the heck out of there asap!!!!
Posted By: markos Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/25/17 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Can you move NOW instead of in June? I am very worried about your safety. WH has lost control and is ramping up his behavior, and the police don't even respond. Others force you to sit down face to face with him for 6 hours for 'mediation.' Is everyone in this whole country in a fog??? It is as if nobody believes that you have free will and control your OWN life. I would take your kids and get the heck out of there asap!!!!

Me too!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/26/17 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by unwritten
Can you move NOW instead of in June? I am very worried about your safety. WH has lost control and is ramping up his behavior, and the police don't even respond. Others force you to sit down face to face with him for 6 hours for 'mediation.' Is everyone in this whole country in a fog??? It is as if nobody believes that you have free will and control your OWN life. I would take your kids and get the heck out of there asap!!!!

Me too!

Thank you Unwritten and Markos for your support. Unfortunately, OW has now submitted an additional application to court that I must pay a surety of around 20 000 dollars because I am foreign and might leave the country before the civil lawsuit she brought against me is finished. So, I actually can't leave the country. My lawyer is contesting it, but I have to wait until it is done. She was arrested and held in custody yesterday, and we were in court this morning for her bail hearing, but her lawyer (who might be related to her, according to my lawyer) told the judge he is launching additional actions against me and the police that arrested her. Next court date set for May 9. Nothing more from WH today so far.

I definitely feel that no one thinks I have control of my own life. I am only just starting to understand the systematic oppression of women in this context. You can't see it until you try to fight against it. And then everyone I come across is pressuring me to do the opposite of what I know is right for me and my children. If I did not have a good job and the education to use official systems to protect myself, I would not be able to defend myself against all these attacks. But I am OK for now. And now that OW has finally got to court, we are on the home straight. WH is leaving the country at the end of the week.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/26/17 02:19 PM
Sorry I just noticed in my post above that it seems like I am saying my lawyer was arrested. That is not the case (although I guess we can't rule anything out in this saga!). OW was the one arrested again yesterday.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/28/17 06:25 AM
Progress at last! OW has been suspended by the Nursing Council (she is a nurse) - probably pending the outcome of the criminal case. Seems like she had the nursing council disciplinary hearing immediately after the court appearance on Wednesday morning. Ironically, I found out through a friend who saw it on facebook - so I guess my exposure letters, sent to a handful of people via private message, somehow don't seem so bad now...

I have also had a call with global HR for their company after I contacted them about the ongoing harassment and legal stuff. They were very supportive of me and the kids. They will help cover our costs of moving out of the country, said they will provide support if I need any emergency assistance in case of security issues, and I also requested that they cancel any plans WH has to return to the country after leaving this week. They seemed to think that was a reasonable suggestion.

WH sent me a cease and desist letter yesterday saying me contacting his employer is a breach of his dignity. laugh Bring it on!

I hope that other BSs can learn from my experience DO NOT BE SCARED WHEN PEOPLE THREATEN YOU WITH LEGAL STUFF! As long as you are always calm and professional in your communications, and the information you share with other people is always clearly intended to protect your family rather than be nasty, you have nothing to worry about.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/28/17 01:38 PM
So nice to hear this positive outcome thus far. Way to stay strong, my friend.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/28/17 02:48 PM
Dignity definition: the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect. Nope, sorry WH you do not fit into that description right now.

But you do chalk, and he has trounced all over that with his endless cheating.

He himself has damaged his own dignity, by acting dishonorably. You just told the truth.

crazy
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/28/17 04:07 PM
So glad to hear that you are getting support and that things are looking up.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/29/17 06:07 PM
Thanks BrainHurts, Unwritten and Justthe3ofus. Unfortunately, the positive patch didn't last long. Another violent and angry incident by WH today - but at least he has now left the country. I guess it was one last effort to "win" in what he thinks is a power struggle against me and my "stubborness" (translation: refusing to give in to allow him to continue his relationship and SSL while having a lovely family and the facade of being a great guy).

Called lawywers, police, and his country office again. But now that everyone is aware of the situation, it is much easier to mobilise support.

He thinks he is leaving the country with the intention of coming back to move out properly in June. But now that I have connected with the global HR office of his company, we are trying to make sure there is no legitimate work reason for him to return. I will also see whether it is possible for them to request that his visa is cancelled, now that his contract in this country has ended. I think they would do it right away if I reported the violence. But I am worried about the implications for him ever being able to get a visa ever again - and I might want him to come and see his children.

Some textbook fogbabble on emails today since he got on the plane. Everything is my fault. He tells me he hopes i wake up from my nastiness (?!) "Leave OW out of it. It is between me and you" - what is between us? You having an affair and refusing to break up with her? We didn't even have any problems in our relationship that I am aware of. We were happy.

I also found proof this afternoon that WH definitely paid for OW to sue me. I guess it doesn't make any difference. It is no worse than all the other things he has done. And he wasn't making any secret of the fact that he thought she was right to do so. So I guess it makes sense. Oh well, I will just get my lawyer to request those incriminating bank statements and we will present them at the trial. I guess he will be paying my damages too.....so I will make them sufficiently large....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/29/17 06:39 PM
It is so hard to see how addicted he is to OW. He is destroying absolutely everything in his life - his job, his family, his marriage. Why? And she is such an awful person! I know he never felt like that about me. Is affair love so much more powerful than normal conventional love when you meet and date without cheating on other people?!
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/29/17 08:18 PM
They all 'affair down'. The OW in my case was overweight, single and desperate with a criminal history. With someone like that he could feel both powerful and in control. To him it felt as if he was getting unconditional admiration.

Although serial adultery is about the chase/conquest, they do from time to time get addicted to their victims. Is it more powerful than conventional love? Interesting question, I think the secrecy heightens the adrenaline. But the lack of domestic chores helps to keep the mistress relationship enticing. Nothing particularly sexy about dirty socks on the floor.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/29/17 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Another violent and angry incident by WH today - but at least he has now left the country.


I hope you and the children are ok. This is not good.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I will also see whether it is possible for them to request that his visa is cancelled, now that his contract in this country has ended. I think they would do it right away if I reported the violence. But I am worried about the implications for him ever being able to get a visa ever again - and I might want him to come and see his children.

I'll let the others chime in on this but my instinct is that you should report the violence.
Posted By: armymama Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/29/17 10:29 PM
My question is, "Why would you want someone who has violent and angry incidents to be able to come see your children?". I would report the violence. If he doesn't get to see the children, it is a consequence of his actions.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/29/17 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by armymama
My question is, "Why would you want someone who has violent and angry incidents to be able to come see your children?". I would report the violence. If he doesn't get to see the children, it is a consequence of his actions.
I so agree.
Posted By: markos Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/30/17 12:53 AM
Violence should always be reported.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/30/17 04:58 AM
Thank you everyone. You are all right (of course!). I don't know what I was thinking not to report it - I guess it is the remaining bit of BS fog I am struggling with. I will do the report today and I will also file for a restraining order. Even though he has now left the country, he could easily fly back and I would feel safer if he was not able to come to the house.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 04/30/17 05:08 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
They all 'affair down'. The OW in my case was overweight, single and desperate with a criminal history. With someone like that he could feel both powerful and in control. To him it felt as if he was getting unconditional admiration.

Although serial adultery is about the chase/conquest, they do from time to time get addicted to their victims. Is it more powerful than conventional love? Interesting question, I think the secrecy heightens the adrenaline. But the lack of domestic chores helps to keep the mistress relationship enticing. Nothing particularly sexy about dirty socks on the floor.

Yeah, my WH definitely likes these women who depend on him for money and are impressed by flashy cars, clothes and watches. He has ultimate power over them if they need him for money - which I don't. I met him when he was a student and had nothing. I have never cared about status symbols. But he has always been frustrated that people look at us as a couple as ask him how he managed to get a wife like me. Even his lawyer said that to him last weekend during our 6 hours of "mediation". I didn't realise how angry it made him until these past couple of months. He's got such an enormous ego he can't stand the idea that people think he is not worthy of me (which he obviously isn't!!!!). He thinks I should be grateful that he has allowed me to bear his children (and raise another one that is not mine). And that I should be grateful for that and keep out of the rest of his life so he can get the adoration he believes is his right.

I have been pregnant and/or breastfeeding for basically the entire past 3 years. Three miscarriages at 3 months, followed by a normal pregnancy, then 10 months of breastfeeding....I have definitely not been fun or sexy. I've barely been awake. But my baby daughter is so beautiful, lovely and calm, so I can't regret the time and effort it took to bring her to the world even if it gave WH an extra excuse to treat his family like rubbish.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/01/17 11:39 AM
Just found out WH told his employer that I have post-natal depression (I don't) and that I have gone crazy and imagined the affair......so that explains why the initial work exposure didn't get very far.....

Thank goodness for all the police and court stuff - at least now I have documents and evidence to prove this is not all in my mind!

And if he was so concerned about my mental health, why would he leave the house and let me raise four kids alone?!?!?
Posted By: Elaina7 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/01/17 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thank you everyone. You are all right (of course!). I don't know what I was thinking not to report it - I guess it is the remaining bit of BS fog I am struggling with. I will do the report today and I will also file for a restraining order. Even though he has now left the country, he could easily fly back and I would feel safer if he was not able to come to the house.

AS a woman who has have violence against myself- the violence you don't report always seems to come back later and hurt you over and over and over.... even if it is in a lost chance with legal stuff.
If you report it- it is just the truth and you can't think about what might happen to him. He should have thought of that before he hurt you!

Please please tell me that you reported this!!!

And- I am so so so sorry that it has happened to you.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/02/17 05:14 AM
Originally Posted by Elaina7
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thank you everyone. You are all right (of course!). I don't know what I was thinking not to report it - I guess it is the remaining bit of BS fog I am struggling with. I will do the report today and I will also file for a restraining order. Even though he has now left the country, he could easily fly back and I would feel safer if he was not able to come to the house.

AS a woman who has have violence against myself- the violence you don't report always seems to come back later and hurt you over and over and over.... even if it is in a lost chance with legal stuff.
If you report it- it is just the truth and you can't think about what might happen to him. He should have thought of that before he hurt you!

Please please tell me that you reported this!!!

And- I am so so so sorry that it has happened to you.

Hi Elania, Thanks a lot. I am going to the police station this morning with a friend of mine to do the report and then go and get a restraining order. There were quite a few witnesses so I will get them to confirm the report too. I don't know why I haven't been reporting it before. I guess I have just been so used to protecting him from the consequences of his actions - but i don't know why I started doing that in the first place. Anyway, not anymore! Its no good for anyone (him, me, the family) if I cover things up.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/02/17 11:40 AM
Police report done. Filed for restraining order. Obtained copy of police report about OW's assault on me and sent it to their employer as requested. I will also send a copy of the restraining order when it is ready. Thanks for the motivation everyone!
Posted By: markos Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/02/17 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Police report done. Filed for restraining order. Obtained copy of police report about OW's assault on me and sent it to their employer as requested. I will also send a copy of the restraining order when it is ready. Thanks for the motivation everyone!

hurray
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/03/17 10:54 AM
Now that WH has left the country, the next thing on the list is to prevent him from coming back.

He booked a return ticket that his work paid for, but I have spoken to the country office here and established there is no legitimate work reason for him to come back and that the return was supposed to enable him to move his family out of the country.

Since I have now informed them I will be moving with the kids on my own, I think I will ask them to cancel his return ticket when I send them a copy of the restraining order. Surely if a wife tells you one of your employees is abusive and threatening towards her and her children (with evidence of a restraining order), and requests that you don't finance him to come back to the place where he is likely to repeat the abuse, they will listen, won't they? No company would want to take responsibility for enabling domestic abuse if it could easily be avoided.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/03/17 10:58 AM
He has left his clothes and our car at a friend's house. Should I go and reclaim that stuff so that he can't come into the country to collect those things without me knowing about it? I think he might have taken the car key with him, but I could get a tow truck to bring it home.

Or maybe I should just wait until I have the restraining order. I don't want his friend to alert him to my plans to keep him out of the country.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/05/17 02:29 PM
Today I sent a copy of the restraining order to WH's employer, asking them to cancel his return flight back here and cancel his resident's permit. If he wants to come back into the country he is going to have to apply for a visa and get an invitation letter from OW.

I have also spoken to my lawyer about hiring a PI. I suspect WH has been channeling money to OW and I want to find it so that I can claim suitable damages in my alienation of affection counter-case against her defamation suit.

Things are moving forward.....
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/05/17 04:00 PM
How are you doing with all this? And the kids?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/06/17 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
How are you doing with all this? And the kids?

Hi Brain Hurts, thanks very much for asking. I am OK when I am actively doing things and planning how to take things forward, but when things get quiet it is really tough. My nanny, who lives with us, has gone away for the weekend and it has really made me realise how much I have been depending on her for companionship and emotional support. I feel so alone right now with four kids and no one to talk to. I have some friends, but there's only so much of this continuously exploding drama that i feel i can offload onto them. After the first incident with the police, then I found that people started to react to me as if I had officially exceeded the bounds of "normal" and stopped being able to relate to my experience.

I also struggle with the fact that everyone seems to think I am totally crazy to be fighting so hard. I don't know what they think they would do in my position - maybe they don't imagine they would ever be in my position. But I find it a bit addictive: now that I have started uncovering lies and seeing opportunities for damaging the affair and WH's SSL, I want to keep on going until ALL the lies are exposed. I want to know what has really happened in my life during the past 10 years. If it takes court cases, private investigators, subpoenas of financial information and forensic accountants, then I will do all that and I won't stop until I know the truth. Luckily, I have been gifted this opportunity of OW suing me, which will enable me to pass my costs on to her and bring out information about WH that I might not have had access to otherwise.

Once you have spent a few months obsessively reading threads on this forum, and educating yourself about affairs and the wayward mindset, you begin to see how ignorant most people are of the situations they are in in their marriages. And how little we all know about how to truly take control of our lives and relationships. I am so grateful for this knowledge and I am doing everything possible to put it into action. I just wish I could help other people to open their eyes too. But I don't seem to be able to do that yet.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/06/17 04:18 AM
The kids are doing totally fine - amazing even. They were a bit upset when WH was so aggressive and threatening last weekend, but they have bounced back right away. I thank my patchy plan B for that and, of course, exposing to them. Getting him out of the house when I did was the best thing possible for shielding the kids from conflict and drama. As a result, they have just carried on with their normal routines - school, playdates, normal family meals, bathtime, bedtime, etc - and because i have been insulated from drama too, I've been able to be pretty normal with them as well.

They don't even ask if he is coming home anymore. They accept that he has got a girlfriend and that he doesn't live with us. I don't know why we are all so reluctant to expose to children. It makes everything so much easier and less confusing for them and us as parents.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/06/17 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I don't know why we are all so reluctant to expose to children. It makes everything so much easier and less confusing for them and us as parents.
You should add this and your experience to the Exposing to Children thread to help others when they aren't sure.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/06/17 08:43 PM
I also found that there are some friends/family that haven't been through what we've been through and they have a difficult time on what to say or do for us. To me it shows that until you've been through it there really is a lot of ignorance out there when it comes to infidelity and what to do to protect our marriages. Make sure you're taking care of yourself, my Friend.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/07/17 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I don't know why we are all so reluctant to expose to children. It makes everything so much easier and less confusing for them and us as parents.
You should add this and your experience to the Exposing to Children thread to help others when they aren't sure.

Thanks Brain Hurts, I'll do that. I am so thankful to have this forum to turn to for advice. There is no way I would have been able to maintain strength and focus for this fight without it. Thank you to everyone.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/09/17 07:47 AM
Back in court this morning for OW's remand hearing. Apparently they will set a date for the full hearing later on today.

She has launched a suit against the police for unlawful arrest. The investigating officers came and told me while laughing to themselves. Apparently her aunt is a suspended police officer, so there is some background between her family and the police. They keep saying she is "naughty", giving the impression they have known her and seen her behaviour before. But haven't provided details.

Meeting a PI this afternoon. Will get him to investigate OW's background and find any evidence of financial support from my WH so that I can use that in my counter suit to calculate damages for alienation of affection/dissipation of marital assets. I am learning so much through this process!

My landlord emailed last night to say WH has not paid the rent since February. Since his company pays him a housing allowance, I have made him aware that not paying the rent is FRAUD and I will report him to his employer (again) if he does not pay. I am really beginning to understand this idea of letting WSs experience the consequences of their actions....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/10/17 07:13 PM
My WH served me with ANOTHER summons today! For apparently refusing him access to the kids. But I have never refused. He just doesn't turn up. And since he left the country he hasn't even mentioned them. Oh well. What's another court case.....now i have three....
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/10/17 09:58 PM
If I were you I would report him to the company rather sooner than later. Just google "stalking through the courts" and you will know that you are not alone.
Sadly, court cases can be misused in this way.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/11/17 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by happyheart
If I were you I would report him to the company rather sooner than later. Just google "stalking through the courts" and you will know that you are not alone.
Sadly, court cases can be misused in this way.

Thanks Happy Heart. I hadn't even thought of telling the company about this one - but yes, it makes sense because it shows the escalating harassment though legal channels. Thanks for the advice.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/11/17 10:33 AM
My landlord just told me WH has paid at least some of the outstanding rent now. Phew! So I guess he does understand that not-paying makes him look really bad.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/13/17 04:47 AM
It seems as though WH has been thinking that the time between me throwing him out on Feb 21, and him leaving the country to start his new job on April 29, was some kind of holiday where he got the freedom to continue his affair without the inconvenience of my snooping and having to face my trauma. Ultimate hall pass. I wish I had understood the wayward mindset better at the start.

He is now out of the country and trying to contact me, requesting that I behave "like an adult", that we "need to discuss" the family move, and that we should make decisions "in the best interests of the family".

He left the country with one suitcase. Expecting that he would come back and take sofas, beds, a TV, etc from the family home apparently. He has also hidden the car somewhere, believing that he would come back and use it. So I have now told him no. He doesn't get to take anything from the family home. I have a restraining order preventing him from coming to the house anyway. And I am not going to help him leave his family and establish a new life alone - why would i?!

My next job is getting a maintenance order sorted out so he understands his new life will not be all fun and games rolling in money, and using a private investigator here to find evidence to justify a court order to freeze marital assets and access financial information from WH and OW so that I can track down how much of our family money has been used to fund this affair (which I will subsequently claim in damages in the alienation of affection lawsuit).

One thing I have recently learned through these court dramas is that while court cases take forever to come to resolution, in the short term you can use urgent court orders and subpoenas very effectively to access information about finances to provide evidence for negotiation of maintenance and/or divorce settlements and prevent marital assets being used for affairs/hidden by your spouse. At least you can in my context here in Southern Africa. But it requires you to do the thinking yourself and suggest these options to your lawyer because they will probably not be thinking of the big picture on your behalf.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/13/17 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
requesting that I behave "like an adult", that we "need to discuss" the family move, and that we should make decisions "in the best interests of the family".
How do you know this? How are getting this information? Are you using your IM?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/14/17 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
requesting that I behave "like an adult", that we "need to discuss" the family move, and that we should make decisions "in the best interests of the family".
How do you know this? How are getting this information? Are you using your IM?

frown my plan B is still patchy. WH contacted me directly on Friday using a new number to discuss access to the children, the day after I was served with the summons for access. I corresponded with him over whatsapp for 2 hours during which he told me everything is my fault and that I have spent the past 8 years not respecting him and not showing the world that I am proud of him. He told me I should have been randomly turning up to bars when he is out drinking with his male friends to show everyone that "he is my man". Conveniently ignoring the fact that I have been pregnant or breast feeding for most of the past 8 years. I just didn't respond to any of it - no AOs, no DJs. Its all rubbish anyway. He suddenly seems very keen on sending me to a counsellor. I think he believes he will find someone to tell me I am wrong.

My IM is my sister, but she got really angry with him a couple of weeks ago because of his ridiculous fogbabble and blaming me for everything. She is still willing to do the role, but wanted to have a break from him so that he could calm down a bit. He did seem a bit less crazy yesterday than at any time during the past few months, so maybe distance from OW is having an effect, although it has only been two weeks since he left the country. The court date for the summons he served me last week is May 25. But I am doing everything I can to prevent him from returning to the country so that he can keep a distance from OW. My lawyer is going to request a postponement.

We have now agreed that he will Skype the children every evening at 7:30pm, so I will go back to zero contact now that I cannot be accused of preventing him from talking to the kids and have the whatsapp conversation to demonstrate the arrangement.

Thank you for keeping me on track with Plan B. It will be so much easier when we move and all the current loose ends are tied up.

He is trying to talk to me about taking furniture from the house (which I won't allow), the kids visiting him in his new country (which I also won't allow due to security concerns - my government warns against travel to his country), and the ongoing mediation we are engaged in to sort out maintenance. He is refusing to meet with the mediator because I got a restraining order against him (he emailed the mediator to say so, cc'ing me). He says he will not meet with her unless I retract the restraining order. I won't do that - and refusing to meet with the mediator just makes him look bad anyway. If he doesn't engage with the mediation process, I will just go to the maintenance court to get a maintenance order directly without his input.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/14/17 03:34 PM
Good to know you'll be tightening up your Plan B. I figured you had direct contact with him because your usual calm demeanour seemed shaken. I feel for your Sister to have to deal with your WH, but can she handle it now? Can she act as a spam filter? Do you need to try and find another IM?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/15/17 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Good to know you'll be tightening up your Plan B. I figured you had direct contact with him because your usual calm demeanour seemed shaken. I feel for your Sister to have to deal with your WH, but can she handle it now? Can she act as a spam filter? Do you need to try and find another IM?

Thanks Brain Hurts. Yes, he REALLY disturbs me! Just seeing his name or reading his wayward logic makes it so hard for me to deal with the rest of life. I am so thankful for the advice of this forum to go into Plan B back in February. Even though I had trouble cutting off all contact, it made such a huge difference to my ability to be able to keep the family routines for the kids and do my work (at least a little bit, work has really suffered to be honest).

Now that WH has left the country, he has calmed down from peak crazy, so I think my sister will be fine with him now. She is a strong person who doesn't take rubbish from people, so she didn't hold back in telling WH what she thought of him - and when he went through several weeks of messing around with time for visits to the kids (saying he would come at 10am, not turning up until 3 hours later, refusing to give another time, etc) she lost patience. But I've told her to be on her best behaviour and ignore everything apart from facts we need from him, so I think we can reestablish the communication in a more controlled way now.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/15/17 02:19 PM
Better day today. I met with the PI and he says he can definitely get phone records for both WH and OW going back 3 years by the end of the week, and will work on the other info I have asked for.

I also reported our car - which WH has hidden somewhere - to the police as stolen (its in my name and now that WH is out of the country there is no way anyone else can justify hiding it from me). I know a doctor friend of WH knows where it is, but he was really evasive on the phone this morning when I asked him directly, so I think it is better if the police deal with it.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/15/17 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I also reported our car - which WH has hidden somewhere - to the police as stolen (its in my name and now that WH is out of the country there is no way anyone else can justify hiding it from me). I know a doctor friend of WH knows where it is, but he was really evasive on the phone this morning when I asked him directly, so I think it is better if the police deal with it.


Perfect :-)
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I also reported our car - which WH has hidden somewhere - to the police as stolen (its in my name and now that WH is out of the country there is no way anyone else can justify hiding it from me). I know a doctor friend of WH knows where it is, but he was really evasive on the phone this morning when I asked him directly, so I think it is better if the police deal with it.


Perfect :-)

I'm learning.....:D
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I'm learning.....:D


You are doing really, really well. I had a full time job with three tiny children too. I was the breadwinner because XH was involved in a start-up. It was so hard. My XH probably started his first affair when my youngest was a newborn, at least that was the first one he admitted to. I knew there was something wrong but life was so tough that I just did not go there. My error led to many more affairs.

I hugely admire the way you are handling this.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I'm learning.....:D


You are doing really, really well. I had a full time job with three tiny children too. I was the breadwinner because XH was involved in a start-up. It was so hard. My XH probably started his first affair when my youngest was a newborn, at least that was the first one he admitted to. I knew there was something wrong but life was so tough that I just did not go there. My error led to many more affairs.

I hugely admire the way you are handling this.


Hi Living Well, Thank you very much for the encouraging words. Your experience sounds so much like my situation. WH was a student when we got together and we got married when he was just starting out as a consultant so had insecure income. I was already established in my career and quite successful, and then had to juggle increasingly senior positions, tiny children and travelling between countries all the time as WH's short term contracts kept him moving. The OC was conceived when my oldest son was 2 months old.

The fact that I have been able to provide the security for the family alone all along, and got used to being the one holding everything together, gave WH the freedom to use his money and success as he became established in his career to create a pleasure-seeking SSL for himself while I just carried on working full-time, producing children, cooking, looking after him constantly and trying to sleep when I could. I think because I was so used to things being hard, I just got used to it - and I hadn't really woken up to the fact that WH has been enjoying life and money a whole lot more than I have until just now. I now see how many mistakes I made to get to where we are now. My errors also allowed WH to have many more affairs, and get much better at hiding them from me. But I was just too busy and tired to look more than 2 steps in front of me.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[
The fact that I have been able to provide the security for the family alone all along, and got used to being the one holding everything together, gave WH the freedom to use his money and success as he became established in his career to create a pleasure-seeking SSL for himself


Oh yes, that resonates. My WXH had Admiration as his top emotional need. Looking back on it, by holding everything together alone, I failed to meet that need. That of course left him vulnerable to getting that need met outside the marriage where he looked hugely successful.

On reflection, it would have been better for him if I had done less.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[
The fact that I have been able to provide the security for the family alone all along, and got used to being the one holding everything together, gave WH the freedom to use his money and success as he became established in his career to create a pleasure-seeking SSL for himself


Oh yes, that resonates. My WXH had Admiration as his top emotional need. Looking back on it, by holding everything together alone, I failed to meet that need. That of course left him vulnerable to getting that need met outside the marriage where he looked hugely successful.

On reflection, it would have been better for him if I had done less.

That being said, for both of you, your WH's did not fall into affairs because they had their unmet needs met by another person. They are both serial cheaters who actively pursued affairs. Even if you met every need 100% they still would have had affairs.

Just don't want you to shoulder any blame livingwell smile
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Just don't want you to shoulder any blame livingwell smile


Thank you
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[
The fact that I have been able to provide the security for the family alone all along, and got used to being the one holding everything together, gave WH the freedom to use his money and success as he became established in his career to create a pleasure-seeking SSL for himself


Oh yes, that resonates. My WXH had Admiration as his top emotional need. Looking back on it, by holding everything together alone, I failed to meet that need. That of course left him vulnerable to getting that need met outside the marriage where he looked hugely successful.

On reflection, it would have been better for him if I had done less.

That being said, for both of you, your WH's did not fall into affairs because they had their unmet needs met by another person. They are both serial cheaters who actively pursued affairs. Even if you met every need 100% they still would have had affairs.

Just don't want you to shoulder any blame livingwell smile

Unwritten you bring up a great point, however, I wonder if there is a pattern here? I also provided nearly all the security and financial stability in our marriage/family/home, where my WW never had to worry about a thing. Her & the kids' present & future financial needs were always taken care of, period. I did most of the work in and around the house. This seems to have given WW the freedom to live a life of IB, then later a SSL.

Does Dr. Harley write about anything like this? Could it be that in the effort to provide 100% for spouse/family/home, by removing any struggle or risk or motivation to contribute for your spouse, that it serves to enable IB and later a SSL?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by abrrba
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[
The fact that I have been able to provide the security for the family alone all along, and got used to being the one holding everything together, gave WH the freedom to use his money and success as he became established in his career to create a pleasure-seeking SSL for himself


Oh yes, that resonates. My WXH had Admiration as his top emotional need. Looking back on it, by holding everything together alone, I failed to meet that need. That of course left him vulnerable to getting that need met outside the marriage where he looked hugely successful.

On reflection, it would have been better for him if I had done less.

That being said, for both of you, your WH's did not fall into affairs because they had their unmet needs met by another person. They are both serial cheaters who actively pursued affairs. Even if you met every need 100% they still would have had affairs.

Just don't want you to shoulder any blame livingwell smile

Unwritten you bring up a great point, however, I wonder if there is a pattern here? I also provided nearly all the security and financial stability in our marriage/family/home, where my WW never had to worry about a thing. Her & the kids' present & future financial needs were always taken care of, period. I did most of the work in and around the house. This seems to have given WW the freedom to live a life of IB, then later a SSL.

Does Dr. Harley write about anything like this? Could it be that in the effort to provide 100% for spouse/family/home, by removing any struggle or risk or motivation to contribute for your spouse, that it serves to enable IB and later a SSL?

I would say it is very short sited of you to think that a person who is provided for financially, is removed from any struggle, risk, or motivation, and that we never have to worry about a thing crazy

I do not believe Dr Harley has done research on this. The bottom line is, serial cheaters who are actively searching for affairs, regardless of their family situation and how their needs are being met, will find affairs. We have seen serial cheaters who were the providers, and SAHM serial cheaters. IMO and experience it is about the mindset and not the financial situation. And likewise, *anyone* has the opportunity for an affair if they let someone else meet their needs. Again, we have seen affairs in professional people as well as non working people. The common denominator is allowing someone else to meet your needs.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by abrrba
Unwritten you bring up a great point, however, I wonder if there is a pattern here? I also provided nearly all the security and financial stability in our marriage/family/home, where my WW never had to worry about a thing. Her & the kids' present & future financial needs were always taken care of, period. I did most of the work in and around the house. This seems to have given WW the freedom to live a life of IB, then later a SSL.

Unless you had strict EP's in place, YOU also had the freedom to live a life of IB, and a SSL. You also could have allowed someone else to meet your needs and you also could developed a SSL to protect your affair.

I am just saying, you providing financially for your WW was not the catalyst that led to her affair. It was a lack of boundaries and EP's.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 05:18 PM
Sorry we are thread jacking here chalkncheese...

I agree with livingwell that you have shown incredible strength through this. The fact that you are raising and are currently protecting not only your own biological children but also an OC from a previous affair, is downright amazing. That boy is so lucky to have you in his life. You are one strong woman!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Sorry we are thread jacking here chalkncheese...

I agree with livingwell that you have shown incredible strength through this. The fact that you are raising and are currently protecting not only your own biological children but also an OC from a previous affair, is downright amazing. That boy is so lucky to have you in his life. You are one strong woman!
^^^^ and with class the whole time!!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 05:32 PM
And it all comes down to this (I like how markos and Prisca write it down).


Originally Posted by markos and Prisca
Bad Boundaries + Met Needs = Affair
Bad Boundaries + Unmet Needs = Affair
Good Boundaries + Met Needs = No Affair
Good Boundaries + Unmet Needs = No Affair
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/16/17 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Sorry we are thread jacking here chalkncheese...

I agree with livingwell that you have shown incredible strength through this. The fact that you are raising and are currently protecting not only your own biological children but also an OC from a previous affair, is downright amazing. That boy is so lucky to have you in his life. You are one strong woman!

Ditto. I am more than impressed with the strength and resolve you have shown! You inspire me and many others, I'm sure.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/17/17 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[
The fact that I have been able to provide the security for the family alone all along, and got used to being the one holding everything together, gave WH the freedom to use his money and success as he became established in his career to create a pleasure-seeking SSL for himself


Oh yes, that resonates. My WXH had Admiration as his top emotional need. Looking back on it, by holding everything together alone, I failed to meet that need. That of course left him vulnerable to getting that need met outside the marriage where he looked hugely successful.

On reflection, it would have been better for him if I had done less.

That being said, for both of you, your WH's did not fall into affairs because they had their unmet needs met by another person. They are both serial cheaters who actively pursued affairs. Even if you met every need 100% they still would have had affairs.

Just don't want you to shoulder any blame livingwell smile

Thanks Unwritten and Living Well. I can really see that behaviour pattern so clearly now that all of you at MB have opened my eyes. I have been behaving as though I was married to someone like me - someone who chose a partner for life when they got married, and understood that that choice meant no other partners - while never realising that my husband had no intention whatsoever of limiting himself to one woman. Now I understand his approach to marriage, i also understand how my approach enabled him.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/17/17 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by abrrba
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[
The fact that I have been able to provide the security for the family alone all along, and got used to being the one holding everything together, gave WH the freedom to use his money and success as he became established in his career to create a pleasure-seeking SSL for himself


Oh yes, that resonates. My WXH had Admiration as his top emotional need. Looking back on it, by holding everything together alone, I failed to meet that need. That of course left him vulnerable to getting that need met outside the marriage where he looked hugely successful.

On reflection, it would have been better for him if I had done less.

That being said, for both of you, your WH's did not fall into affairs because they had their unmet needs met by another person. They are both serial cheaters who actively pursued affairs. Even if you met every need 100% they still would have had affairs.

Just don't want you to shoulder any blame livingwell smile

Unwritten you bring up a great point, however, I wonder if there is a pattern here? I also provided nearly all the security and financial stability in our marriage/family/home, where my WW never had to worry about a thing. Her & the kids' present & future financial needs were always taken care of, period. I did most of the work in and around the house. This seems to have given WW the freedom to live a life of IB, then later a SSL.

Does Dr. Harley write about anything like this? Could it be that in the effort to provide 100% for spouse/family/home, by removing any struggle or risk or motivation to contribute for your spouse, that it serves to enable IB and later a SSL?

Hi Abrrba, I just think I dropped the ball in my marriage. If I had been paying attention to really understanding the kind of person my husband is I would have behaved differently. But I didn't have that knowledge and would never have guessed when I was younger and more innocent than I am now that a person could get married intending to behave as my husband has. I have been living as though I had a marriage to a person who thought like me, rather than understanding that I was living with a serial cheater who needs extra extra precautions in order to be faithful.

I think people who want to maintain SSLs and lots of IB will find a way to do it. The fact that I was occupying myself with raising children, working full time and managing the household and finances probably just made it easier for him to maintain.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/17/17 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by abrrba
Unwritten you bring up a great point, however, I wonder if there is a pattern here? I also provided nearly all the security and financial stability in our marriage/family/home, where my WW never had to worry about a thing. Her & the kids' present & future financial needs were always taken care of, period. I did most of the work in and around the house. This seems to have given WW the freedom to live a life of IB, then later a SSL.

Unless you had strict EP's in place, YOU also had the freedom to live a life of IB, and a SSL. You also could have allowed someone else to meet your needs and you also could developed a SSL to protect your affair.

I am just saying, you providing financially for your WW was not the catalyst that led to her affair. It was a lack of boundaries and EP's.

This point of Unwritten's is so true. It reminds me of an old post Sugar Cane wrote years ago (I have done a lot of reading of this site!) about "modern marriages" where the spouses do not conform to traditional stereotypes and tend to allow each other the freedom to live independent lives. When I started out in my adult life (I am also from the UK like Sugar Cane) I believed that one of the great benefits of two educated professional people being married to each other was that you could both take an equal share of the responsibilities and give each other equal freedoms, and that your love would be deeper and more respectful because of that equality. I have now learnt through hard experience that people - and especially men, it seems - need responsibility and restrictions in order to act responsibly. If we all have the freedom to do whatever we want knowing that no one is watching, we would certainly not be living in a society of angels.

I really really wish I had known that 8 years ago!!!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/17/17 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by unwritten
Sorry we are thread jacking here chalkncheese...

I agree with livingwell that you have shown incredible strength through this. The fact that you are raising and are currently protecting not only your own biological children but also an OC from a previous affair, is downright amazing. That boy is so lucky to have you in his life. You are one strong woman!
^^^^ and with class the whole time!!

Ah, thank you Unwritten and Brain Hurts! It really gives me a boost to read compliments like that. Even I am impressed with how the OC relationship has worked out. But it is a lot to do with his personality. The moment we went to get him to bring him to live with us when he was 3 years old, he attached himself to me and loved me with such passion that there was no way I could not love him back (despite the inevitable pain at the beginning). He spent the first year of his life with us obsessively drawing family portraits with us all together and pictures of me pregnant with him in my belly. He has never once mentioned a single word about his biological mother or expressed a hint of sadness or loss at moving country. He still gets incredibly upset if we happen to mention the time before he came to live with us and he can't look at any photos of his brothers as babies without collapsing into a heap in tears because he wasn't there to see those things. He has never established a close relationship with my husband at all, so I think it also helped me adjust knowing that if he had to make a choice between us, it would be me every time and that there is no relationship between them that would impinge on our other kids' relationships with their father. My other boys were also amazing in their openness to accept and love him. But that was partly because of my ground work teaching them that they had another brother right from the start of their lives. They have always known about him, so it has never been a surprise.

The only thing I am slightly anxious about is the point at which OC gets old enough to understand that he came into existence through something that was so painful to me. I think it won't be too many more years before he really starts to ask questions about why and how I came to be his Mum, especially given that he is black and I am white. But I guess I will deal with that when the questions come.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/17/17 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
And it all comes down to this (I like how markos and Prisca write it down).


Originally Posted by markos and Prisca
Bad Boundaries + Met Needs = Affair
Bad Boundaries + Unmet Needs = Affair
Good Boundaries + Met Needs = No Affair
Good Boundaries + Unmet Needs = No Affair

This simple description is really helpful!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/17/17 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by abrrba
Originally Posted by unwritten
Sorry we are thread jacking here chalkncheese...

I agree with livingwell that you have shown incredible strength through this. The fact that you are raising and are currently protecting not only your own biological children but also an OC from a previous affair, is downright amazing. That boy is so lucky to have you in his life. You are one strong woman!

Ditto. I am more than impressed with the strength and resolve you have shown! You inspire me and many others, I'm sure.

Thanks Abrrba!
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/17/17 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The only thing I am slightly anxious about is the point at which OC gets old enough to understand that he came into existence through something that was so painful to me. I think it won't be too many more years before he really starts to ask questions about why and how I came to be his Mum, especially given that he is black and I am white. But I guess I will deal with that when the questions come.


Answer each question with honesty when it comes. I'm adopted and the hardest part of an adoption is the lack of identity even though at that time (UK 1950s) adoptive parents/children were carefully matched.

How marvelous to be able to grow up with half siblings. Every adoption is full of pain but this makes it much easier.

He will test your love to the limit as a teenager. I was a terror.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/17/17 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by unwritten
Sorry we are thread jacking here chalkncheese...

I agree with livingwell that you have shown incredible strength through this. The fact that you are raising and are currently protecting not only your own biological children but also an OC from a previous affair, is downright amazing. That boy is so lucky to have you in his life. You are one strong woman!
^^^^ and with class the whole time!!

Ah, thank you Unwritten and Brain Hurts! It really gives me a boost to read compliments like that. Even I am impressed with how the OC relationship has worked out. But it is a lot to do with his personality. The moment we went to get him to bring him to live with us when he was 3 years old, he attached himself to me and loved me with such passion that there was no way I could not love him back (despite the inevitable pain at the beginning). He spent the first year of his life with us obsessively drawing family portraits with us all together and pictures of me pregnant with him in my belly. He has never once mentioned a single word about his biological mother or expressed a hint of sadness or loss at moving country. He still gets incredibly upset if we happen to mention the time before he came to live with us and he can't look at any photos of his brothers as babies without collapsing into a heap in tears because he wasn't there to see those things. He has never established a close relationship with my husband at all, so I think it also helped me adjust knowing that if he had to make a choice between us, it would be me every time and that there is no relationship between them that would impinge on our other kids' relationships with their father. My other boys were also amazing in their openness to accept and love him. But that was partly because of my ground work teaching them that they had another brother right from the start of their lives. They have always known about him, so it has never been a surprise.

The only thing I am slightly anxious about is the point at which OC gets old enough to understand that he came into existence through something that was so painful to me. I think it won't be too many more years before he really starts to ask questions about why and how I came to be his Mum, especially given that he is black and I am white. But I guess I will deal with that when the questions come.
Your children sound so wonderful, challncheese. That's probably because they have such a wonderful Mother to teach them.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/19/17 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Your children sound so wonderful, challncheese. That's probably because they have such a wonderful Mother to teach them.

Thanks Brain Hurts! They are really sweet and lovely - even if I do say so myself wink

I am feeling a bit down this week. I have been pushing so hard to make progress in several areas: securing all our assets (the car my husband has hidden is the main one); preventing WH from returning to the country now he has left (trying to cancel his visa); and trying to build evidence to justify a subpoena of financial records for OW and WH so that I can quantify the amount of financial support - and claim it back in the lawsuit.

But all this fighting is exhausting and this morning I feel as though I might not be able to prevent WH coming back next week. That means he will see OW, disturb us here, possibly get arrested (because I have a restraining order against him that prevents him from coming to the house, but I don't think that will keep him away) and take back control of the car, which he has hidden with a friend of his somewhere here.

I just feel like he somehow has the upper hand if he is able to come back here and it will cancel out all the progress I have made since he left.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/19/17 06:03 AM
The main elements of my plan are:
1) End the affair - exposure and follow up. Get WH to leave country to he is away from OW.
2) Clear the fog - Prevent WH from returning to the country. Try to cancel residence permit. Promote conditions to cause conflict in relationship with OW (follow up on employment consequences of threats, police, courts, nursing council, etc).
3) Promote maximum discomfort in his new life. Securing all family assets, pushing for large maintenance order, garnishment order (taking money directly from his pay check), obtaining full financial disclosure incl hidden assets in other countries, ensuring that court cases brought against me become a financial drain on him, committing as much of WH's money as possible to visitation (requires international flights, car and apartment hire twice a month).
4) Be the lighthouse. Never get angry. Be consistent, loving, honest and firm. No contact. Plan B.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/19/17 06:04 AM
I am on point 2 and doing preparations for point 3. Point 1 was successfully completed. Point 4 is ongoing.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/19/17 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
But all this fighting is exhausting and this morning I feel as though I might not be able to prevent WH coming back next week. That means he will see OW, disturb us here, possibly get arrested (because I have a restraining order against him that prevents him from coming to the house, but I don't think that will keep him away) and take back control of the car, which he has hidden with a friend of his somewhere here.


If he retrieves the car, he will be stopped by the police as this was reported as stolen. Cool if he does not know that :-)
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/19/17 10:27 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
But all this fighting is exhausting and this morning I feel as though I might not be able to prevent WH coming back next week. That means he will see OW, disturb us here, possibly get arrested (because I have a restraining order against him that prevents him from coming to the house, but I don't think that will keep him away) and take back control of the car, which he has hidden with a friend of his somewhere here.


If he retrieves the car, he will be stopped by the police as this was reported as stolen. Cool if he does not know that :-)

Yep! And he will also be arrested if he tries to get into the house - so I guess I do have alternative plans in place just in case i am not able to keep him out of the country. But I am not 100% confident in the police since they seem to take a lot of prodding in order to do anything, so I hesitant to rely on them as my main intervention plan.

Some good news this morning: the US Embassy has written to the department of home affairs, notifying them that my husband should no longer have a residence permit since his contract here is finished. Hurrah! Now I just have to do the leg work getting home affairs to issue a formal notification to embassies that his permit number is not valid. And then I might be able to breathe a little....
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/19/17 10:34 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Some good news this morning: the US Embassy has written to the department of home affairs, notifying them that my husband should no longer have a residence permit since his contract here is finished. Hurrah! Now I just have to do the leg work getting home affairs to issue a formal notification to embassies that his permit number is not valid. And then I might be able to breathe a little....


twoxfour

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/19/17 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Some good news this morning: the US Embassy has written to the department of home affairs, notifying them that my husband should no longer have a residence permit since his contract here is finished. Hurrah! Now I just have to do the leg work getting home affairs to issue a formal notification to embassies that his permit number is not valid. And then I might be able to breathe a little....


twoxfour

weightlifter
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/19/17 04:44 PM
Good job chalkncheese.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/21/17 06:11 AM
I'm really stressed about the idea that WH might be here next week. Despite all my work to keep him out, I am worried he could still make new plans. He has told our mediator for our parenting plan that he will be available to meet in the neighbouring country on Wednesday. But I am worried that he is saying that just in order to get me to travel (the mediator appointment is 6 hours drive away) so I will leave the house unattended. And then he would be able to force his way in and take whatever he wants. The restraining order is in place but I suspect he will disregard it.

I have also heard a disturbing story that there might be a plan to stage a pretend hijack of my car so that the police will not be able to find it - and it will never be returned to me. The PI passed on this information on Saturday. He was able to find the car and took photos. But it is hidden in the army barracks about 20 mins outside of town.

I am organising for a security guard to come and stay in our house until we leave in June. I am quite anxious about our safety now.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/21/17 03:06 PM
I have been worried about your safety for awhile now too. I agree that your WH is not likely to follow any legal restrictions like a RO. He seems like a person who believes the law doesn't apply to him and will use any means necessary to get what he wants. He also seems to have friends in law enforcement and your country seems to be supportive of adultery and a woman being in her husbands control in general, so relying on them is not failproof. This is why I wanted to see you move immmediately instead of wait until June.

I think having security is smart. Can his company pay for or help you with that? They seem to be very supportive of keeping you safe. Where are you with your own plans to move?

Are you saying you have to meet him for mediation? If so that is ridiculous when you have an RO against him. Refuse to meet him for your own safety.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/21/17 05:13 PM
A restraining order is nothing but a piece of paper.
If will only work if you are in a situation, where the other party does not have much at stake and has a lot to loose when he violates the RO.

In your case:
- your husband has his whole family life and potentially his lifestyle at stake
- he obviously has friends in law inforcement, what should he be afraid for? They will not send him to jail for violating the RO and he can laugh about the fine, because he is emigrating anyway
- he has shown in the past, that he will not be deterred by fences and locks, why should he shy away from a piece of paper?
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/21/17 05:25 PM
You are in my opinion in a dangerous situation for several reasons. Losing some property is the least of your worries.

Your husband is at crossroads. He is looking at a situation in which he will be paying for a family, that is no longer to his benefit. He will not see the children when he likes. He is not going to have a nice wife who cooks and provides sex. But he will still have to put up a lot of money for this family.
Also, you have made a fool of him in front of the entire community, you have and are threatening his manhood so to speak. To gain his self esteem and position in the community back, he may do things, that we would consider crazy, but that make perfect sense in his line of thinking.

You have seen that this is the way he thinks. What good does it do him to break into his own house, to spend an hour or two with his family? You have now seen to how much trouble he will go, stageing a carjack, just so that you won't have the car!
Sounds like too much hassle for most of us and not helpful in the situation. But if you see it from the point of view of a man, who has to prove to himself and others that he will not tolerate that a woman tells him wat he can and cannot do, it makes perfect sense.

In a best case scenario, he will try to keep the upper hand by harassing you through the courts and trying to limit your access to assets.
In a worst case scenario, he will kill his former family or have them killed and either get away with it or get 4 years and temporary insanity and will be free to start over without paying for a family and school and university.

In your case, it has been repeatedly shown that you are not safe in your home. You should move your assets to a safe place and live in a hotel or with friends for the next few weeks, if you want to be on the safe side.

The worst case scenario may never materialize, but if it does, you can whipe your behind with the restraining order, because it won't save you.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/21/17 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
I have been worried about your safety for awhile now too. I agree that your WH is not likely to follow any legal restrictions like a RO. He seems like a person who believes the law doesn't apply to him and will use any means necessary to get what he wants. He also seems to have friends in law enforcement and your country seems to be supportive of adultery and a woman being in her husbands control in general, so relying on them is not failproof. This is why I wanted to see you move immmediately instead of wait until June.

I think having security is smart. Can his company pay for or help you with that? They seem to be very supportive of keeping you safe. Where are you with your own plans to move?

Are you saying you have to meet him for mediation? If so that is ridiculous when you have an RO against him. Refuse to meet him for your own safety.

Thanks Unwritten. I think his company would pay for the security guard, but I will sort it out by tomorrow anyway and think about who covers the cost later. I really want to leave now. But I am waiting on residence papers in the neighbouring country for the OC. The rest of the kids and I have dual citizenship for the neighbouring country, but OC has a difficult nationality. My husband gave me the authorisation to travel with him two months ago, so I have the paperwork to get across the border, it is just the visa issue that is the problem. I was also waiting for my husband's company to confirm the details of the move because they are covering the cost. They have been waiting for my husband to tell them how much of the moving allowance he will use - but it seems he has been stalling and waiting until this week to try to take our family furniture. I could phone the only international removals company in the country tomorrow and see how quickly they could pack us up and move. I think I will do that.

I emailed the mediator this morning and said I do not feel comfortable meeting my husband and sent her the restraining order and supporting documentation. I am sure she can "mediate" somehow without me physically being there. She can even call my cell phone.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/21/17 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by happyheart
You are in my opinion in a dangerous situation for several reasons. Losing some property is the least of your worries.

Your husband is at crossroads. He is looking at a situation in which he will be paying for a family, that is no longer to his benefit. He will not see the children when he likes. He is not going to have a nice wife who cooks and provides sex. But he will still have to put up a lot of money for this family.
Also, you have made a fool of him in front of the entire community, you have and are threatening his manhood so to speak. To gain his self esteem and position in the community back, he may do things, that we would consider crazy, but that make perfect sense in his line of thinking.

You have seen that this is the way he thinks. What good does it do him to break into his own house, to spend an hour or two with his family? You have now seen to how much trouble he will go, stageing a carjack, just so that you won't have the car!
Sounds like too much hassle for most of us and not helpful in the situation. But if you see it from the point of view of a man, who has to prove to himself and others that he will not tolerate that a woman tells him wat he can and cannot do, it makes perfect sense.

In a best case scenario, he will try to keep the upper hand by harassing you through the courts and trying to limit your access to assets.
In a worst case scenario, he will kill his former family or have them killed and either get away with it or get 4 years and temporary insanity and will be free to start over without paying for a family and school and university.

In your case, it has been repeatedly shown that you are not safe in your home. You should move your assets to a safe place and live in a hotel or with friends for the next few weeks, if you want to be on the safe side.

The worst case scenario may never materialize, but if it does, you can whipe your behind with the restraining order, because it won't save you.

Hi HappyHeart, this makes A LOT of sense to me. You've really hit the nail on the head. Especially this bit:

Originally Posted by happyheart
he will not tolerate that a woman tells him what he can and cannot do

Also, since I have now managed to get his residence permit cancelled, I have removed his ability to harass me effectively through courts (since you can only sue people in the place where you are ordinarily resident otherwise the court does not have jurisdiction) - which is likely to make him angrier than ever.

Police and army people are all for sale here. That's the problem. What I have achieved so far has been by doing things properly and doing the leg work to provide witness statements, evidence, and research for lawyers that makes their jobs easy. But my doing things right can't really compete with someone like my husband throwing money around. And you are right, he is making decisions based on ego and vengeance, which I find hard to predict and plan for. The only thing that should prevent him from being too stupid is that he is foreign here. He might have friends, but if you are arrested as a foreign african man in another african country it really is bad. And he didn't manage to get his girlfriend out of jail when she was arrested, so I know he can't do everything he wants.

Moving the family to a hotel for at least this week while he is in the country is a good idea - especially if I can get a permanent security guard here to prevent WH from coming in and stealing everything. I think he will arrive on Tuesday morning, so at least I have tomorrow to make plans. I will provide updates.

Thank you very much for this thoughtful and useful advice. I am really not emotionally intelligent at all and can't read people. It makes me feel like i have a kind of blindness. So I appreciate the insights of others who can all the more.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/21/17 07:01 PM
Moving to a hotel seems a good idea, especially, if you can do it incognito, so that he does not know where you are.
You cannot stop him from taking things from the house anyway.
As you have to move your posessions out of the country anyway, you could also rent a container and ship the most important ones already. He can then take aunt Sylvia's old sofa if he should break into the house.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/22/17 01:41 AM
I agree with the others and get yourself to a hotel so that you are safe. I really was hoping you could be out sooner than June, but the hotel is the next best thing. Please keep us updated.
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/22/17 03:20 AM
If your husband works for a US-based company or organization, paying government officials in another country is a violation of the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Tell his employer he is paying bribes.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/22/17 03:35 AM
Originally Posted by Brits_Brat
If your husband works for a US-based company or organization, paying government officials in another country is a violation of the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Tell his employer he is paying bribes.

Thanks BritsBrat - that's so useful to know! I will report him (again)
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/22/17 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I really want to leave now. But I am waiting on residence papers in the neighbouring country for the OC. The rest of the kids and I have dual citizenship for the neighbouring country, but OC has a difficult nationality. My husband gave me the authorisation to travel with him two months ago, so I have the paperwork to get across the border, it is just the visa issue that is the problem.

So you never legally adopted OC? Although I am sure your WH is not going to want to take custody of him, he may try to use this to manipulate you.

My WXH requested custody of our dog. He had never taken the slightest interest in her, indeed he does not like animals. I simply said 'she is yours, I will bring her over right away' and he dropped the subject. A little harder to do with a child but you might want to warn OC that this could be a temporary outcome.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/23/17 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I really want to leave now. But I am waiting on residence papers in the neighbouring country for the OC. The rest of the kids and I have dual citizenship for the neighbouring country, but OC has a difficult nationality. My husband gave me the authorisation to travel with him two months ago, so I have the paperwork to get across the border, it is just the visa issue that is the problem.

So you never legally adopted OC? Although I am sure your WH is not going to want to take custody of him, he may try to use this to manipulate you.

My WXH requested custody of our dog. He had never taken the slightest interest in her, indeed he does not like animals. I simply said 'she is yours, I will bring her over right away' and he dropped the subject. A little harder to do with a child but you might want to warn OC that this could be a temporary outcome.

Hi Living Well, It was still a work in progress when all this stuff with the affair happened. OC first came to live with us in November 2014. We tried to initiate the adoption process in the neighbouring country (where I have a job and citizenship) in early 2015, but after some frustrating months paying lawyers and visiting courts, we were eventually told that we couldn't complete the process there because the social worker couldn't do a surprise visit on us, since the children go to school in this country. We then decided to try the adoption here, but because OC is not a national of this country, there is no system for that at all. We then started the process in WH and OC's home country at the end of 2016....and then everything fell apart a bit.

The social worker I have got said when I move across the border with the kids she will be able to help me file for emergency guardianship of OC so that I effectively become a third parent at least for the time being. And because there is a frustrating requirement that children cannot be taken across borders with out the written consent of their parents/guardians and production of their birth certificates at every border, it should be sufficient to prevent WH attempting to take him.

There was also an amendment to the children's act in 2015 which did away with the concept of custody altogether. There is now only "primary residence" and "contact rights". And since WH now lives in an insecure country that most governments advise against travel to, i don't think he would be able to challenge me for primary residence.

He has threatened to take OC away already, but I don't think he would actually be able to do it logistically. Also, when we move in a few weeks' time, he won't know where we live anymore.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/23/17 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He has threatened to take OC away already, but I don't think he would actually be able to do it logistically. Also, when we move in a few weeks' time, he won't know where we live anymore.


I am certain that you will do a fine job of protecting this child. You cannot solve everything right now. As long as he knows you have his back and that these are therefore only empty threats, he will be fine. He is lucky to have you as a Mum
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/24/17 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He has threatened to take OC away already, but I don't think he would actually be able to do it logistically. Also, when we move in a few weeks' time, he won't know where we live anymore.


I am certain that you will do a fine job of protecting this child. You cannot solve everything right now. As long as he knows you have his back and that these are therefore only empty threats, he will be fine. He is lucky to have you as a Mum

Thanks a lot Living Well. I have been thinking about your previous comment about the cat. I know for sure WH would not want to have the kids living with him full time if he were thinking rationally, but it is plausible that, in his absolute selfishness, he would try to hurt me by trying to take them away...although I think he is aware he would never win a battle to take my three biological children so would focus on OC.

The sad thing is that it would not even occur to OC that he might be treated differently to his brothers in this situation and I really want to avoid him waking up to that fact right now. It would totally destroy the emotional security and sense of belonging that we have worked so hard to give him.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/24/17 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The sad thing is that it would not even occur to OC that he might be treated differently to his brothers in this situation and I really want to avoid him waking up to that fact right now. It would totally destroy the emotional security and sense of belonging that we have worked so hard to give him.


Because children depend so utterly on us for their survival, they are far more astute than we can imagine. He may not talk about it to you but he does know that he is different. It will be in the way the extended family treats him, it will be in the questions he is asked at school . .

It is never wrong to tell children the truth. Sit him down with a slice of cake and tell him that his father is angry and irrational at the moment. Because his adoption is not yet complete, this may be something he will attempt out of anger towards you but it will only be temporary.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/24/17 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The sad thing is that it would not even occur to OC that he might be treated differently to his brothers in this situation and I really want to avoid him waking up to that fact right now. It would totally destroy the emotional security and sense of belonging that we have worked so hard to give him.


Because children depend so utterly on us for their survival, they are far more astute than we can imagine. He may not talk about it to you but he does know that he is different. It will be in the way the extended family treats him, it will be in the questions he is asked at school . .

It is never wrong to tell children the truth. Sit him down with a slice of cake and tell him that his father is angry and irrational at the moment. Because his adoption is not yet complete, this may be something he will attempt out of anger towards you but it will only be temporary.

Thanks Living Well. That is good advice (as always!). I will do that.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/24/17 07:26 PM
WH has been sending aggressive and threatening emails to my sister (IM) tonight. It seems he doesn't understand what a restraining order is and doesn't believe it stops him from coming to the house. We have got security in place and a named policeman who will respond if he comes tomorrow. All he has to do is turn up at the house to be in violation of the restraining order.

He is demanding to see the children but refusing to make any arrangements. He is demanding that I make arrangements for him to see our baby, who is turning one tomorrow. My sister told him he needs to make an arrangement himself, and that "making an arrangement" involves choosing a time and a venue and communicating that to me (via her) with sufficient warning - and then respecting that agreement. He just ignores things like that.

Maybe being arrested will be a good thing for him. Maybe then he will start to understand that what he is doing is serious.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/24/17 07:28 PM
His police commissioner friend is out of the country for a 3 month long trip to China....maybe he is not aware that he won't have this protection....
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/24/17 07:45 PM
Is your WH back in the country? Can you go and stay somewhere else for a few days just in case he does attempt to break in? I am very worried about you.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/24/17 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Maybe being arrested will be a good thing for him. Maybe then he will start to understand that what he is doing is serious.

I don't think he cares if it is serious. I think he believes he is entitled to this lifestyle he has created for himself, and even an arrest will not change that. This is why I think he is very dangerous.
Posted By: buildsherhouse Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/25/17 03:06 AM
Very dangerous time for you and the kids.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/25/17 05:05 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Is your WH back in the country? Can you go and stay somewhere else for a few days just in case he does attempt to break in? I am very worried about you.

Hi Unwritten, we knew he was coming some time this week but did not know when. I thought it was Tuesday but it seems he is coming this morning now. He landed in the neighbouring country yesterday morning.

Yes, I am taking the kids to a hotel to stay from this morning. We have got 24 hour security at the house, the guards have a copy of the restraining order and I have a named policeman to call should he arrive (the guard will call him). So if he turns up there he will be arrested regardless of whether we are there or not.

He keeps sending messages saying he wants to see the kids. But does not provide any suggestions for how that might happen. I don't think he understands the situation at all and still thinks he can just stomp around and control everything.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/25/17 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Maybe being arrested will be a good thing for him. Maybe then he will start to understand that what he is doing is serious.

I don't think he cares if it is serious. I think he believes he is entitled to this lifestyle he has created for himself, and even an arrest will not change that. This is why I think he is very dangerous.

Yes, he seems to be absolutely convinced of his own rightness. Even when there is a growing pile of officially documented evidence of his absolute wrongness. Where does this sense of entitlement come from?! It is such an ugly type of arrogance. I can't believe I have not recognised it before. I think I have inadvertently nurtured it by being nice and kind and giving him the impression of subservience without making clear to him that I CHOOSE what to do in my life.

I am a CEO of a company, highly educated, financially self-sufficient and capable of making things happen in whatever contexts I have lived over the years. But somehow he believes that he has ultimate power over me or that I am not allowed to exercise my agency to protect myself and my children.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/25/17 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Yes, he seems to be absolutely convinced of his own rightness. Even when there is a growing pile of officially documented evidence of his absolute wrongness. Where does this sense of entitlement come from?! It is such an ugly type of arrogance. I can't believe I have not recognised it before.

I am guessing that he is also very charming and knows how to fill up love banks to keep you content. You don't necessarily always see the ugly side of people until you start to go through something like this. Like when they say you don't marry the same person you divorce.

Well keep updating us every day, just to check in and let us know you are safe.

How many more days until you can get out of town?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/25/17 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Yes, he seems to be absolutely convinced of his own rightness. Even when there is a growing pile of officially documented evidence of his absolute wrongness. Where does this sense of entitlement come from?! It is such an ugly type of arrogance. I can't believe I have not recognised it before.

I am guessing that he is also very charming and knows how to fill up love banks to keep you content. You don't necessarily always see the ugly side of people until you start to go through something like this. Like when they say you don't marry the same person you divorce.

Well keep updating us every day, just to check in and let us know you are safe.

How many more days until you can get out of town?

Yup. Extremely charming/intelligent/kind/generous/funny/approachable and great at doing small things that make other women feel cared about like remembering to ask how they are if they have been feeling ill, paying for small things without hesitation, showing concern for their problems and families etc. When we were first dating, I remember him once saying when we were in the getting-to-know-eachother phase, "remember that movie 'What women want'? [Mel Gibson develops the ability to read women's thoughts] Well I really feel I got hit by that lightening bolt". He never said a truer word.

After several days of refusing to make clear arrangements about seeing the children, and refusing to understand the concept of a restraining order preventing him from coming to the house, WH finally sent a message to my sister saying I should drop the kids at the only family restaurant in town at 3:30. I took them along and asked my nanny to sit there with them so I wouldn't have to see him. He eventually turned up 30 mins late. He is with them now. I am anxious that he will decide to bring them home in a taxi and then I will have to call the police. But we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

I heard news from the police that my car has been smuggled across the border. WH had a deadline of tomorrow morning to surrender it to the police....so we will see what transpires in the morning....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/25/17 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
How many more days until you can get out of town?

3 weeks to go! It will be a HUGE relief
Posted By: apples123 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/25/17 06:08 PM
I have family not far from Nairobi. If you are near there and need emergency help, please let me know.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 06:11 AM
Originally Posted by apples123
I have family not far from Nairobi. If you are near there and need emergency help, please let me know.

Hi Apples, thank you very much for the offer. We are in the south though.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 06:29 AM
We spent the entire morning yesterday at the police station trying to get the car back. My lawyer/friend and I watched on in awe as WH manipulated an entire room of policemen (five of them) into bending to his agenda with just a 5 minute phone call (predictably, he did not turn up to the police station at 8am as he had promised - but somehow he managed to make the police think that it was totally fine he was not there and they came away from the phone call very happy with WH's new worthless commitments to make a time to "sit down and talk" to me about the car). If he wasn't destroying my family with these skills, I would be impressed.

Now that I understand how WH uses words so effectively to manipulate people, I can see that the way to fight against him is with documents and processes and official records. The restraining order is like a magic ticket. He has now got the idea that he is not allowed to come to the house and that an official document proving his history of violence undermines his arguments that I am crazy somewhat. He has not attempted to violate the order in the few days he has been here and I am feeling more secure - especially with our security guards at the house.

He took the kids out for dinner on Thursday and is now at a hotel with all three boys until Sunday. His focus seems to have shifted from trying to steal our furniture to trying to control our move out of the country by asserting that only he can arrange the logistics since his company is paying for it. I don't want him to know the address of our new house so I have contacted his employer, sent them a copy of the restraining order, and told them I feel threatened and do not want WH to know our new address. Hopefully, they will agree to deal with me directly about the move.

Also, since he told the police he will be in the country for two weeks, but I know that he did not inform his office that he was travelling, I sent a further email to his employer in the US informing them how surprised I am to find out that he has taken two weeks of vacation from his new job which began on May 1. I also pointed out that the reason he can come and go as he pleases from this country is that his US Embassy visa is still active, despite the fact that his contract finished a month ago now and despite the US Embassy writing to the Department of Home Affairs informing them that he is not associated with them. Maybe the vacation without taking leave thing is what will make his employer act....



Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 06:38 AM
Living Well, I think you posted on someone else's thread (maybe PigletWiglet) that you will never regret a restraining order. I just wanted to add my experience to that! Restraining orders, especially if they restrict access to the family home, are an amazingly effective tool for protection of assets, helping keep calm and security for the kids, combatting the WS's spin on the situation, and providing strong evidence of bad behaviour by the WS in any legal dealings. I know it is just a piece of paper, and that he can disregard it, but the fact that I can whip out my copy in front of anyone WH is trying to manipulate against me has helped me so much especially now that he has taken to telling everyone I am psychologically unstable.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 10:59 AM
hurray
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 02:57 PM
How were the kids after seeing him? Did they have a lot of questions?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
How were the kids after seeing him? Did they have a lot of questions?

Hi BrainHurts, they were totally fine! No questions at all. He bought them gifts and that made them excited. They were generally just happy to see him. They don't like the fact that seeing him means spending the entire day in a restaurant since our tiny country has very limited entertainment opportunities for kids, and WH doesn't have a home to take them to, but I can see they really enjoy his company. So I guess that is a good thing. I am also enjoying the time off wink. Three small boys are extremely noisy!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
How were the kids after seeing him? Did they have a lot of questions?

Hi BrainHurts, they were totally fine! No questions at all. He bought them gifts and that made them excited. They were generally just happy to see him. They don't like the fact that seeing him means spending the entire day in a restaurant since our tiny country has very limited entertainment opportunities for kids, and WH doesn't have a home to take them to, but I can see they really enjoy his company. So I guess that is a good thing. I am also enjoying the time off wink. Three small boys are extremely noisy!
That's good and good to have some time off, but you still have the baby with you, correct? So not completely off, huh? smile
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 03:27 PM
How much longer before he leaves?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
How were the kids after seeing him? Did they have a lot of questions?

Hi BrainHurts, they were totally fine! No questions at all. He bought them gifts and that made them excited. They were generally just happy to see him. They don't like the fact that seeing him means spending the entire day in a restaurant since our tiny country has very limited entertainment opportunities for kids, and WH doesn't have a home to take them to, but I can see they really enjoy his company. So I guess that is a good thing. I am also enjoying the time off wink. Three small boys are extremely noisy!
That's good and good to have some time off, but you still have the baby with you, correct? So not completely off, huh? smile

Yep, still have the baby! But she feels like no work compared to the boys laugh
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
How much longer before he leaves?

We are not sure!! I had assumed that it would be a really short trip since he started a new job on May 1 and I thought he couldn't take time off. But he told police yesterday he might be here for 2 weeks.....so I now think he is intending to stay until the access case he filed against me here is heard, and perhaps until the hearing in his girlfriend's criminal case. Although something tells me (intuition) that he is not running around after her now that he is back. It is like his focus has totally shifted to this power struggle against me.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/27/17 07:16 PM
I have to say, whether you save your marriage or just have personal recovery you, my friend, are a MB success story.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/28/17 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
I have to say, whether you save your marriage or just have personal recovery you, my friend, are a MB success story.

MB has helped me SO much. I never realised before that I could control my own life and actually demonstrate that I will not accept terrible behaviour rather than just saying it. I now realise that while I thought I was being tough with my husband, my actions were not reinforcing my words....so he just ignored me.

Now I know I can set a boundary and enforce it by making sure that my actions and words say the same thing. If I say a certain behaviour is unacceptable, that means I will not stay in the same house as my husband while he continues to engage in that behaviour. It is such a powerful tool. And I know I will never again be in the weak situation I was when I found this forum of feeling like there was nothing I could do to control my husband's behaviour and the pain it was causing me.

I don't yet know whether my husband can change. He is an extremely tough nut to crack. But it doesn't really matter. If he doesn't change, then I haven't lost anything apart from a terrible husband and a lifetime of certain misery. And if he does, then wonderful!

I tell everyone I meet about this website and how eye-opening the advice is. Although I don't think people can really understand unless they have been in this kind of situation themselves.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/28/17 04:29 PM
Quite a dramatic day today - with a positive outcome! I have taken back the car!

On Friday, the police had instructed my husband and I to meet up to discuss the car issue between us - and then report back to them. So we arranged to meet in a restaurant today with the kids (he took them away for the weekend and just returned this morning). The moment my husband walked in, he absent-mindedly put the car keys on the table in front of him......and, after waiting for my chance, I swiped them and hid them in a place he wouldn't easily reach wink

There were some tense exchanges when he snatched my handbag and hid my wallet and passport. He tried to become violent in an effort to get the key back from me, but because we were in a restaurant in a mall there were security guards and witnesses everywhere. We ended up "negotiating" with two policemen and four security guards, but there was no way I was giving up the car keys now that I finally had them. So, in the end, my husband was escorted by police to the car to remove his stuff and then he was forced to leave in my car (significantly lower value, much smaller, not a status symbol in any way) seething with anger. The kids and I drove home in the big Land Rover to the safety of our house with 24 hour security laugh. I can't see the girlfriend being so keen to be seen around town in a battered old toyota corolla rotflmao

I now have control of all of the valuable assets, all of the savings, and the restraining order is keeping WH away from the house. Proud of myself today!!!



Posted By: thndrnltng Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/28/17 05:43 PM
clapclapclapclapclap You are an awesome powerhouse!

tl
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/28/17 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by thndrnltng
clapclapclapclapclap You are an awesome powerhouse!

tl

Ditto! Your strength continues to inspire, especially in light of WH's aggressiveness.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/29/17 01:24 AM
I have a bad feeling about your safety. PLEASE be extra diligent until you are out of that country. The same police that are 'protecting you' required you to meet him to negotiate him returning a car he was hiding from you, while you have a restraining order on him??? That's totally nuts and tells me that whatever front they are putting on, you are not really being protected.

I worked with our city police unit to train them on how to handle domestic violence issues, and if I had a cop suggest such a thing I would have been appalled. Under no circumstances should you be meeting with him.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/29/17 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
I have a bad feeling about your safety. PLEASE be extra diligent until you are out of that country. The same police that are 'protecting you' required you to meet him to negotiate him returning a car he was hiding from you, while you have a restraining order on him??? That's totally nuts and tells me that whatever front they are putting on, you are not really being protected.

I worked with our city police unit to train them on how to handle domestic violence issues, and if I had a cop suggest such a thing I would have been appalled. Under no circumstances should you be meeting with him.

Thanks Unwritten. Yes, the police are terrible - especially since they don't bat an eyelid when WH tells them that I am "forcing him to be violent because I am obstructing him". Both he and they seem to think that is a valid reason for him abusing me.

Now that I have got the car back, and have employed security guards for the house, I will only go out to take the children to school and bring them home, and one weekly trip to the supermarket. The rest of the time I will stay in the house. I hope that WH will get thrown out of the country in the next few days now that I have alerted his employer that he is absent from work without having taken leave.

I want to move as soon as possible but the move is being organised by WH's employer, so we have been stuck in a stalemate for the past few weeks as WH has been trying to control the move via his position as the employed one. However, I have now sent the restraining order to WH's HR department in the US and told them clearly that WH must not know our new address so can't be the one who organises the logistics of the move.

We are going to court on Tuesday for the baseless access case WH filed just after he left the country, in response to the restraining order. It should get thrown out seeing as he has never been refused access and has spent the last four days with the kids pretty much constantly, as well as meeting with the mediator I identified in the neighbouring country last week to define a parenting plan for the future. I also think he fraudulently filed the case when he was not ordinarily resident in this country by getting his friend (the same one who was hiding the car at the army barracks) to pretend to be him at the children's court and paying a clerk to back-date the application to the day before he left. We will try to get proof of that from the official court register in the morning.

However, you are definitely right that this continues to be a really anxious time while he is still in the country since every "win" of mine makes him more angry and less in control of the entire situation. The fact that he is starting to feel the financial pressure and restriction of his plans for the future now that I have control of all savings and assets and am working on taking 75% of his net salary in maintenance is also making him extra crazy. I feel safe at home with the security guards (which I am paying myself) but am definitely vulnerable anywhere I go out. 2.5 weeks more to go.....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/29/17 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Under no circumstances should you be meeting with him.

Yep, I won't be meeting with him anymore at all. My lawyer says I do not need to be in court with her and there is no other reason to meet him now that the car issue is resolved. He is still trying to get some stuff from the house, but I am just ignoring those requests (sent via IM). I will send anything he needs in boxes to his new address once we have moved.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/29/17 11:20 PM
I also fear for your safety. And I am glad that he brought your children back. Be cautious.

Do you really have to depend on his company to help you move or can you make arrangements yourself? The safety of your family is more important than money.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/30/17 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
I also fear for your safety. And I am glad that he brought your children back. Be cautious.

Do you really have to depend on his company to help you move or can you make arrangements yourself? The safety of your family is more important than money.

Hi Goody2Shoes, I have been thinking about this issue. I can just call the removal company myself. It is expensive to move across borders, but I really don't want him to know where we are going to be living. I sent a message to his company on Friday asking them if I would be able to liaise directly with them about it. But if I don't hear back from them today, I think I will just go ahead with the move myself. I am signing a contract on a house this afternoon.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/30/17 08:44 AM
The court date for the suit my husband filed against me for access to the kids was today. I sent my lawyer along on my behalf but the magistrate has said I need to be there in person. The hearing is now postponed to tomorrow at 2pm. WH last night told the kids he was travelling today, so I guess that changes his plans. We are all totally confused as to how he can be persuing a case for access to the kids when there has never been a time when he was denied access - and he has just come back from a three-day mini holiday with them!!

I wish it was all over so WH would leave the country again. Why is he here?!!!?
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/30/17 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The court date for the suit my husband filed against me for access to the kids was today. I sent my lawyer along on my behalf but the magistrate has said I need to be there in person. The hearing is now postponed to tomorrow at 2pm. WH last night told the kids he was travelling today, so I guess that changes his plans. We are all totally confused as to how he can be persuing a case for access to the kids when there has never been a time when he was denied access - and he has just come back from a three-day mini holiday with them!!

I wish it was all over so WH would leave the country again. Why is he here?!!!?


It is access to you that he wants. He is a child who has been told he cannot have chocolate cake until he puts his toys away.

Is there a way that the judge can allow you to attend the hearing without him seeing you? At least that way he would not be rewarded.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/31/17 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The court date for the suit my husband filed against me for access to the kids was today. I sent my lawyer along on my behalf but the magistrate has said I need to be there in person. The hearing is now postponed to tomorrow at 2pm. WH last night told the kids he was travelling today, so I guess that changes his plans. We are all totally confused as to how he can be persuing a case for access to the kids when there has never been a time when he was denied access - and he has just come back from a three-day mini holiday with them!!

I wish it was all over so WH would leave the country again. Why is he here?!!!?


It is access to you that he wants. He is a child who has been told he cannot have chocolate cake until he puts his toys away.

Is there a way that the judge can allow you to attend the hearing without him seeing you? At least that way he would not be rewarded.

Hi Living Well, we had the court hearing today and my husband had nothing to say at all. He wanted the judge to tell me that I should have phoned the French teacher he gave me the number for, and that I shouldn't tell him he has to respect the appointment times for seeing the children. So it was fairly uneventful. Apart from the fact that the judge said that I must communicate with him directly from now on (for the next two weeks at least, until we leave this court's jurisdiction). He is totally focused on trying to get me to give him the address we will be moving to. I am so grateful for this restraining order!!! I just hope no judge in the neighbouring country will force me to give him our address. I really couldn't deal with the worry of him turning up on the doorstep harassing me for years to come.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 05/31/17 03:55 PM
Before we went into the session, he was obviously very frustrated and agitated about the idea of me and the kids moving and him not knowing our new address. He was threatening to apply for a court order to stop me leaving the country. He also seems to care a huge amount about what I have told other people. He wanted the judge to order me to tell him the details of the conversations I have had with people. He seems to think that my definition of "affair" is wrong......
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 07:04 AM
WH told the court yesterday that he is leaving the country today. He said he will bring back the other car (my toyota that I swapped with him when I took back the land rover at the weekend) and park it outside the house before going to the airport. He said his flight is at 11 (2 hours from now). No sign of him or the car yet.....but since everything he says is lies, I don't put too much weight on what he tells people anymore.

He seems to be devoting all his energies into countering what he perceives as me "destroying his reputation", meaning me revealing that the "reputation" he enjoyed was a fantasy image that did not correspond to the person he actually is. He interprets everything that has happened - the exposure, the separation, the restraining order, me refusing to contact him directly, the car issue, the mediation through the social worker, etc - as a series of planned actions done by me solely for the purpose of hurting him. He honestly believes I am maliciously trying to "destroy him". It is so bizarre to see how he spins everything in the way he explains it to himself. He absolutely does not believe that I am genuinely devastated by his infidelity and subsequent behaviour. He doesn't believe it.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 09:15 AM
Hmmm. The flight time has passed and no car. So I suspect WH has not left the country....AGAIN.

This uncertainty about whether he is here or not, what he is plotting, how he is going to harass me more, is so stressful. I just want to move and be confident he doesn't know our address. I'm exhausted.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
It is so bizarre to see how he spins everything in the way he explains it to himself. He absolutely does not believe that I am genuinely devastated by his infidelity and subsequent behaviour. He doesn't believe it.


He can't go there, it is too painful for him.
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hmmm. The flight time has passed and no car. So I suspect WH has not left the country....AGAIN.

This uncertainty about whether he is here or not, what he is plotting, how he is going to harass me more, is so stressful. I just want to move and be confident he doesn't know our address. I'm exhausted.

CnC, I've been reading your story again and it's striking the efforts WH makes to circumvent your plan B and to try to regain control of you. Your strength to endure this inspires me, but it is understandable that it would be exhausting, please be sure to take care of yourself. I continue to pray for the safety of you and your children
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
It is so bizarre to see how he spins everything in the way he explains it to himself. He absolutely does not believe that I am genuinely devastated by his infidelity and subsequent behavior. He doesn't believe it.


He can't go there, it is too painful for him.

Living well, I'm curious about your comment. Does a wayward really experience pain from the pain they cause spouses? It would seem that their actions would dictate otherwise, but I am curious if it is indeed painful for them.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
It is so bizarre to see how he spins everything in the way he explains it to himself. He absolutely does not believe that I am genuinely devastated by his infidelity and subsequent behaviour. He doesn't believe it.


He can't go there, it is too painful for him.

Do people ever have the courage to take responsibility for what they have done after so many years of lying and selfishness? My dad was never able to face the mess he had made of his life through alcoholism, and drank himself to death at age 56. I don't want the father of my children to do the same thing to them, regardless of whether he wants to be married or not.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by abrrba
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hmmm. The flight time has passed and no car. So I suspect WH has not left the country....AGAIN.

This uncertainty about whether he is here or not, what he is plotting, how he is going to harass me more, is so stressful. I just want to move and be confident he doesn't know our address. I'm exhausted.

CnC, I've been reading your story again and it's striking the efforts WH makes to circumvent your plan B and to try to regain control of you. Your strength to endure this inspires me, but it is understandable that it would be exhausting, please be sure to take care of yourself. I continue to pray for the safety of you and your children

Thanks Abrrba. Yes, his controlling behaviour has become more and more marked over the months since I threw him out. I honestly had no idea he was like that! I guess all the years we have been together he thought he was controlling me and that I was submitting to that control....while I thought we were jointly agreeing things and that my doing all the cooking/household stuff and supporting him in his plans/career/whatever was just because I like doing those things and I wanted him to be happy and fulfilled. So I guess there was just a whole big misunderstanding between us. I obviously gave him the mistaken impression (through my generally nice, kind and accommodating nature - or perhaps because I accepted the OC?) that I was not capable of exerting power in our relationship. He has had a big shock now because the rules have suddenly changed.

He is desperate to try to regain the control he has lost by trying to force subjugation on me, as opposed to just saying he is sorry and asking for forgiveness (which would permanently change the power dynamics and would mean he actually had to change, which he doesn't want to do at all). Surely there must be a point in the future where he begins to realise that he can't impose his will on me? Rationally i know that must be the case. But I don't see any sign of that realisation yet.

Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by abrrba
Living well, I'm curious about your comment. Does a wayward really experience pain from the pain they cause spouses? It would seem that their actions would dictate otherwise, but I am curious if it is indeed painful for them.


I would love to get Dr Harley's opinion on whether serial adulterers are different in this respect, they might be.

My WXH has brought 14 different court actions against me since our divorce (which itself he strung out over 5 years). As he has lost every single case, I can only conclude that he is doing this to maintain the fiction to himself of being the injured party. Easier for him to deal with than the pain of acknowledging what he did.
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by abrrba
Living well, I'm curious about your comment. Does a wayward really experience pain from the pain they cause spouses? It would seem that their actions would dictate otherwise, but I am curious if it is indeed painful for them.


I would love to get Dr Harley's opinion on whether serial adulterers are different in this respect, they might be.

Yes, I would be interested in the same. I know that once I understood my LBs of AO/DJ, it hurt me terribly knowing that I had caused my wife such pain. Though it doesn't excuse her A, I am remorseful of my own culpability of the state of the M, pre-affair. I wonder if waywards, caught in their addiction, are incapable of that. I would think serial adulterers especially.

Quote
My WXH has brought 14 different court actions against me since our divorce (which itself he strung out over 5 years). As he has lost every single case, I can only conclude that he is doing this to maintain the fiction to himself of being the injured party. Easier for him to deal with than the pain of acknowledging what he did.

That is really amazing, that WXH would go to such lengths to harass you.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 02:15 PM
I've got the car back and WH has definitely left the country! Hurrah! Plus his company emailed me to say they will deal with me directly about the move so that WH does not find out our new address. Phew
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I've got the car back and WH has definitely left the country! Hurrah! Plus his company emailed me to say they will deal with me directly about the move so that WH does not find out our new address. Phew

That's wonderful news, I'm so relieved for you!! hurray
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 02:26 PM
So, just to recap on the plan ("Operation Journey to Rock Bottom"):

1) End the affair - exposure, separation, pressure on WH and OW through employment, nursing council, police and courts (in response to their suits), etc. DONE

2) Clear the fog - make sure WH stays out of the country, get rid of all excuses/ways for him to return here, promote conflict between him and OW. DONE (with some loose ends to tie up)

3) Create conditions for maximum discomfort in his new life - secure all family money and assets so that he is totally on his own with no savings to fall back on, ensure that maintenance payments take a substantial portion of his regular salary income, ensure frequent visitation of kids, cut off all contact directly. <---- this is where we are now

4) Be the lighthouse - be consistent and loving with very high boundaries. Never be angry, eliminate LBs. Plan B. Ongoing....

The overriding philosophy of this plan is to ensure that WH experiences ALL the consequences of his actions. Nothing I am doing is intended to punish or hurt him. I am just taking all opportunities that are presented to me to report his behaviour to relevant people (the more official the better), to document everything for use in reports/employer interactions/court cases, and to make sure as much of his money as possible comes to the children and I. Since he has just moved to a very insecure country where the political situation is deteriorating right now, the environment he is in will also help to reinforce the feelings of loss of the nice life he previously had, distance from his family, and, most importantly, loss of the freedom that came with having the financial benefits of a dual-income household. For a guy who loves nothing more than throwing money around and being a "big man" in town, not having money to burn or a big expensive car to drive around/show off in will hit him extremely hard.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by abrrba
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I've got the car back and WH has definitely left the country! Hurrah! Plus his company emailed me to say they will deal with me directly about the move so that WH does not find out our new address. Phew

That's wonderful news, I'm so relieved for you!! hurray

Thank you! At least I will be able to relax a bit now that he's actually gone.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 03:35 PM
I do not think he doesn't want to take responsibility because it is too painful. I think people are just wired differently and it is likely he is wired to not be able to see your perspective or feel empathy for his actions. He may truly not be able to ever see how he has hurt you or how this is his fault.

Dr Harley says that everyone will have an affair in the right circumstances, but serial cheaters fall into an entirely different category because they are actively looking for affairs all the time. People are wired differently, some are actually wired to not feel compassion or empathy. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between these narcissistic behaviors and serial cheaters, I would not be surprised if there is. This seems to be why Dr Harley focuses on changing behavior and not personality. You can control behavior and habits but you can't re wire someone.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
I do not think he doesn't want to take responsibility because it is too painful. I think people are just wired differently and it is likely he is wired to not be able to see your perspective or feel empathy for his actions. He may truly not be able to ever see how he has hurt you or how this is his fault.

Dr Harley says that everyone will have an affair in the right circumstances, but serial cheaters fall into an entirely different category because they are actively looking for affairs all the time. People are wired differently, some are actually wired to not feel compassion or empathy. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between these narcissistic behaviors and serial cheaters, I would not be surprised if there is. This seems to be why Dr Harley focuses on changing behavior and not personality. You can control behavior and habits but you can't re wire someone.

Hi Unwritten, I think you are absolutely right about this. My WH doesn't (and probably won't ever) get that what he does affects me. He doesn't understand the concept of truth, and seems to think that a plausible-sounding explanation for something is just as good as the truth - it is about him being able to explain away what he has done, not about me needing to know what has actually happened in my life. In his head, my pointing out how hurt/betrayed/angry I am at his behaviour is solely for the purpose of unjustly punishing him (he considers it unjust if he doesn't agree that I have sufficient evidence to "convict" him of whatever I am accusing him of). He is so self-focused he does not consider that I am actually trying to get him to understand how I feel and why I can't accept his behaviour. He thinks my wanting to change his behaviour is all about stopping him living a life he believes all men live - not that I need fidelity and emotional security in order to be happy and fulfilled in life and marriage.

I don't know if my WH is typical of serial cheaters, I suspect he might be on the extreme side, but I think there are only a very strict set of circumstances under which WH would not be having an affair. It is like trying to keep water in a sieve. His normal is to be with multiple women and to have many different lives depending on who he is interacting with. I believe it was his travelling between countries for studying and then for work that enabled him to grow into this type of person. He never had to finish a relationship with anyone because he always knew he would be leaving to move somewhere else, which meant when we started dating I had to contend with a worldwide network of exes who all believed they would still be together with him had he not moved. The extent of this network only became clear to me years later. He liked keeping all these "options" open by sending them explicit messages reminiscing about past encounters every so often and looking them up whenever he was in their part of the world. He stopped doing that so much when I made him give me his facebook password in 2012, but whatsapping replaced facebooking from around 2015 onwards.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
So, just to recap on the plan ("Operation Journey to Rock Bottom"):

1) End the affair - exposure, separation, pressure on WH and OW through employment, nursing council, police and courts (in response to their suits), etc. DONE

2) Clear the fog - make sure WH stays out of the country, get rid of all excuses/ways for him to return here, promote conflict between him and OW. DONE (with some loose ends to tie up)

3) Create conditions for maximum discomfort in his new life - secure all family money and assets so that he is totally on his own with no savings to fall back on, ensure that maintenance payments take a substantial portion of his regular salary income, ensure frequent visitation of kids, cut off all contact directly. <---- this is where we are now

4) Be the lighthouse - be consistent and loving with very high boundaries. Never be angry, eliminate LBs. Plan B. Ongoing....

The overriding philosophy of this plan is to ensure that WH experiences ALL the consequences of his actions. Nothing I am doing is intended to punish or hurt him. I am just taking all opportunities that are presented to me to report his behaviour to relevant people (the more official the better), to document everything for use in reports/employer interactions/court cases, and to make sure as much of his money as possible comes to the children and I. Since he has just moved to a very insecure country where the political situation is deteriorating right now, the environment he is in will also help to reinforce the feelings of loss of the nice life he previously had, distance from his family, and, most importantly, loss of the freedom that came with having the financial benefits of a dual-income household. For a guy who loves nothing more than throwing money around and being a "big man" in town, not having money to burn or a big expensive car to drive around/show off in will hit him extremely hard.

I say this with all kindness, I don't think this is a healthy Plan B approach for you.

Yes, you are going to be holding your WH's feet to the fire in the D process and you are focused on safety and Plan D life for you and your children and how your WH is going to fit into that picture...but for the most part, you need to be moving towards a place of peace and lessening these thoughts about your WH, how to change his behavior, what drives it, etc. That's not what Plan B is about.

I think that is a probably moreso a challenge for any BS who is going through simultaneous Plan B and Plan D but try to redirect your thoughts when they start trending this way. Don't allow yourself to get bogged down in thoughts about your WH, that won't help you get to where you need to be.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by unwritten
I do not think he doesn't want to take responsibility because it is too painful. I think people are just wired differently and it is likely he is wired to not be able to see your perspective or feel empathy for his actions. He may truly not be able to ever see how he has hurt you or how this is his fault.

Dr Harley says that everyone will have an affair in the right circumstances, but serial cheaters fall into an entirely different category because they are actively looking for affairs all the time. People are wired differently, some are actually wired to not feel compassion or empathy. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between these narcissistic behaviors and serial cheaters, I would not be surprised if there is. This seems to be why Dr Harley focuses on changing behavior and not personality. You can control behavior and habits but you can't re wire someone.

Hi Unwritten, I think you are absolutely right about this. My WH doesn't (and probably won't ever) get that what he does affects me. He doesn't understand the concept of truth, and seems to think that a plausible-sounding explanation for something is just as good as the truth - it is about him being able to explain away what he has done, not about me needing to know what has actually happened in my life. In his head, my pointing out how hurt/betrayed/angry I am at his behaviour is solely for the purpose of unjustly punishing him (he considers it unjust if he doesn't agree that I have sufficient evidence to "convict" him of whatever I am accusing him of). He is so self-focused he does not consider that I am actually trying to get him to understand how I feel and why I can't accept his behaviour. He thinks my wanting to change his behaviour is all about stopping him living a life he believes all men live - not that I need fidelity and emotional security in order to be happy and fulfilled in life and marriage.

I don't know if my WH is typical of serial cheaters, I suspect he might be on the extreme side, but I think there are only a very strict set of circumstances under which WH would not be having an affair. It is like trying to keep water in a sieve. His normal is to be with multiple women and to have many different lives depending on who he is interacting with. I believe it was his travelling between countries for studying and then for work that enabled him to grow into this type of person. He never had to finish a relationship with anyone because he always knew he would be leaving to move somewhere else, which meant when we started dating I had to contend with a worldwide network of exes who all believed they would still be together with him had he not moved. The extent of this network only became clear to me years later. He liked keeping all these "options" open by sending them explicit messages reminiscing about past encounters every so often and looking them up whenever he was in their part of the world. He stopped doing that so much when I made him give me his facebook password in 2012, but whatsapping replaced facebooking from around 2015 onwards.

You don't need to know more about a wayward than to know that:
~they are selfish
~they are entitled
~they are always the victim
~they don't care about the pain they cause others
~they blame shift

I am friends with folks who are divorced from serial cheaters, one time cheaters and they all seem to consistently have these qualities. My own ex H can sometimes show a glimmer of being kind but for the most part he is what I listed above. The wayward mindset becomes entrenched and permanent for most after a certain period of time.

Don't analyze it or you will drive yourself crazy. You need to focus on yourself now and start moving away from thoughts like this.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 05:49 PM
I agree with SusieQ, chalkncheese. Please try to work on your thoughts of your WH to be less and less to solely be yourself and your children. How much longer until you leave?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
You don't need to know more about a wayward than to know that:
~they are selfish
~they are entitled
~they are always the victim
~they don't care about the pain they cause others
~they blame shift

I am friends with folks who are divorced from serial cheaters, one time cheaters and they all seem to consistently have these qualities. My own ex H can sometimes show a glimmer of being kind but for the most part he is what I listed above. The wayward mindset becomes entrenched and permanent for most after a certain period of time.

Don't analyze it or you will drive yourself crazy. You need to focus on yourself now and start moving away from thoughts like this.

Thanks SusieQ. Yes, I think I have got a little too obsessed with all the drama and stress of the past few weeks. You're right it isn't healthy and it definitely stops me managing the rest of my life properly. I have really felt dragged down by all the stress. Now that he has definitely gone, and I have signed a contract for a new house in the neighbouring country, I will make a concerted effort to think only nice thoughts about the great like the kids and I will have in a couple of weeks' time. The house contract runs from June 19, so it is not long at all now. Just the nightmare of packing and sorting stuff out before we leave.....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
I agree with SusieQ, chalkncheese. Please try to work on your thoughts of your WH to be less and less to solely be yourself and your children. How much longer until you leave?

Thanks BrainHurts. It's funny how easy it is to drift off the plan. I'm really so grateful for all of your advice keeping me on track.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/01/17 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
I say this with all kindness, I don't think this is a healthy Plan B approach for you.

Yes, you are going to be holding your WH's feet to the fire in the D process and you are focused on safety and Plan D life for you and your children and how your WH is going to fit into that picture...but for the most part, you need to be moving towards a place of peace and lessening these thoughts about your WH, how to change his behavior, what drives it, etc. That's not what Plan B is about.

I think that is a probably moreso a challenge for any BS who is going through simultaneous Plan B and Plan D but try to redirect your thoughts when they start trending this way. Don't allow yourself to get bogged down in thoughts about your WH, that won't help you get to where you need to be.

Yes, I see what you mean. I guess he has succeeded in maintaining control over me by the very fact that I have been devoting all my energy to fighting him! It will be a lot easier to not focus on him when we have moved and we are establishing our new life that has nothing to do with him. Just 2.5 weeks now.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/02/17 10:46 AM
Waking up today knowing WH has left the country is such a HUGE relief. Everything seems different, better, lighter. So now to refocus on Plan B and no contact!!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/02/17 02:00 PM
Good job. So will he stay out of the country until you leave in 2.5 weeks?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/02/17 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Good job. So will he stay out of the country until you leave in 2.5 weeks?

I hope so!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/03/17 04:52 AM
Chalk,

I have read some of your story here, and your courage and resolve in your situation is amazing. It's good that you have much support here in view of the fact that your relatives are far away. You have to be exhausted - caring for your kids, protecting all of you from him, and planning your relocation. Seems like the most important issue now is your move to the neighboring country without your H being able to track. I am assuming that you are both expatriates living in a foreign county - can you make contact with your country's consulate in the nation you are moving to, explain your situation and ask for protection, or at least go on record that your H is a threat to you, and obtain references in that county for legal advice - i.e. maintaining the current or establishing a new RO, your rights to deny your H access to your kids, securing your financial assets, etc.

On the other hand, try to lighten up as much as you can regarding the whereabouts of your H and what he might be scheming. I understand this is traumatic for you, but 'out of sight - out of mind' regarding your H, and if you have reasonable personal and legal protection from him in the country you're moving to - well then, focus more on your new life.

Will say some prayers for you and your family..

Tom









Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/03/17 06:19 AM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
Chalk,

I have read some of your story here, and your courage and resolve in your situation is amazing. It's good that you have much support here in view of the fact that your relatives are far away. You have to be exhausted - caring for your kids, protecting all of you from him, and planning your relocation. Seems like the most important issue now is your move to the neighboring country without your H being able to track. I am assuming that you are both expatriates living in a foreign county - can you make contact with your country's consulate in the nation you are moving to, explain your situation and ask for protection, or at least go on record that your H is a threat to you, and obtain references in that county for legal advice - i.e. maintaining the current or establishing a new RO, your rights to deny your H access to your kids, securing your financial assets, etc.

On the other hand, try to lighten up as much as you can regarding the whereabouts of your H and what he might be scheming. I understand this is traumatic for you, but 'out of sight - out of mind' regarding your H, and if you have reasonable personal and legal protection from him in the country you're moving to - well then, focus more on your new life.

Will say some prayers for you and your family..

Tom

Thanks Tom. Yes, I have already investigated transferring the restraining order to the neighbouring country. Apparently all I need to do is take along the current RO and founding affidavit to a police station and fill in an application form. Domestic violence is a huge problem in this region so they are used to doing this type of thing. I can even specify on the application form that my new address is not disclosed to WH, which is great. However, I do have to wait until we are ordinarily resident in order to make the application.

It is so much easier to put him out of my mind after signing the contract on the house and knowing that he has left this country. He is calling the kids on Skype every evening at 7:30pm, but as long as I keep away from the computer during those times, it doesn't bother me too much. And I am enjoying planning how to decorate and arrange furniture in the new place after so many years of having to negotiate constant anxiety and stress in my home. I know the move will give me a completely new, positive perspective - and I will just forget about whatever WH might be doing as long as I can get the maintenance order sorted out so that the kids' school fees are covered.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/06/17 02:41 AM
I am starting to uncover how much money WH has been throwing around. He has been earning tens of thousands of dollars a year more than he told me. We had budgeted for paying for 25% of the kids' school fees at an American International School (not cheap for 3 kids) and I had been giving him money for that - but his company covered the entire cost (rather than the 75% he told me they covered). I have no idea how he has burned through 10 000 USD a month when we live in a REALLY cheap country. I have all the family savings in my name and he is now trying to get me to give him money to rent a flat in his new location because he says he is broke. He has been living a totally secret life of hedonism and excess while I have been working like crazy, building the family, my career, and our financial security for the future. This is almost worse than the cheating (but not quite). Thank goodness for my job and income. My heart really goes out to SAHMs with cheating husbands everywhere.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/06/17 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I have all the family savings in my name and he is now trying to get me to give him money to rent a flat in his new location because he says he is broke.


Important to just ignore everything that comes out of a wayward's pie hole.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/06/17 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I have all the family savings in my name and he is now trying to get me to give him money to rent a flat in his new location because he says he is broke.


Important to just ignore everything that comes out of a wayward's pie hole.

Yep! And there is NO WAY he is getting his hands on any of the family savings!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/06/17 08:05 PM
So sorry to hear of the more damage WH has done to you and your children.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/07/17 04:19 AM
Chalk,

You seem like such a good person, and I'm happy to hear that you have the finances and security for you and your kids under control. Your discovery of your H's Concealing his financial situation is upsetting to you I'm sure. If it really came down to it where you are thru with him, you could notify his company about this deceit. I feel tho that this is information about his character that will bolster your resolve to be very on guard about what he says and his motives. I'm sure this is painful to learn about someone you loved and trusted. Your H seems to be desparately lashing out at you.

In the meantime, before your pending relocation, what are you and your kids able to do for just plain fun and to take your mind off all of this? Do you watch movies, have interesting in-house meals, take short trips for shopping or just walks (since you have home security), do fun educational things with your kids? I assume you're from the U.S from a few of your statements - can you arrange for any of your family members to visit you in your new location, or even visit them here?

You're doing great, and again, my prayers for you for strength and protection.

Tom













Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/08/17 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
So sorry to hear of the more damage WH has done to you and your children.

Thanks BrainHurts. It doesn't surprise me anymore. He is a liar so of course he has lied about everything, not just cheating.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/08/17 03:58 AM
Originally Posted by Tom2010
Chalk,

You seem like such a good person, and I'm happy to hear that you have the finances and security for you and your kids under control. Your discovery of your H's Concealing his financial situation is upsetting to you I'm sure. If it really came down to it where you are thru with him, you could notify his company about this deceit. I feel tho that this is information about his character that will bolster your resolve to be very on guard about what he says and his motives. I'm sure this is painful to learn about someone you loved and trusted. Your H seems to be desparately lashing out at you.

In the meantime, before your pending relocation, what are you and your kids able to do for just plain fun and to take your mind off all of this? Do you watch movies, have interesting in-house meals, take short trips for shopping or just walks (since you have home security), do fun educational things with your kids? I assume you're from the U.S from a few of your statements - can you arrange for any of your family members to visit you in your new location, or even visit them here?

You're doing great, and again, my prayers for you for strength and protection.

Tom

Thanks for your kind words Tom. I'm from the UK rather than the US, although WH works for an American organisation. It is a bit of a struggle to organise fun things with four kids in a developing country, to be honest! We go hiking with a group on Sundays, but the rest of the time i am just trying to get through the day making sure they are all clean, fed, and get to school and back. Sleep is the thing I want most! But the baby doesn't really help with that. It is only my Mum who travels to see us, but she's not actually very much help during emotional crises, so it is easier for me to cope without her here. But one benefit of the trauma I have been going through is that I have made a really great new friend with a neighbour of mine who is also a top lawyer. She was also going through a hard time when I was introduced to her in February and we have helped each other so much during the past few months. She has been my advisor and translator, guiding me through all the court and police issues, and I have tried to help her get back on her feet and apply for jobs (she's got an interview next week).
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/08/17 04:03 AM
WH has filed another claim against me for "unlawful separation". He has suddenly decided that me kicking him out in February was an illegal act. Despite the fact that he has spent the last two months enjoying himself and not objecting to his new found freedom from responsibility, and ignoring the fact that he is at least 30kgs heavier than me and that it would have been impossible for me to actually kick him out if he had not agreed to go.

It seems that now he has moved to another country, he is suddenly realising his wife has managed to get away from him - and he doesn't like it one bit. But rather than acting like a normal person and apologising and trying to repair the relationship, he thinks the way to get back into my life is to get a court to order me to let him back in the house (even though he lives and works abroad and the kids and I are leaving this jurisdiction in 2 weeks). Crazier and crazier.

It seems as though the access case was filed solely for the purpose of providing supporting documentation for this claim. As if by suing me for access which he has always had, he thought that it would create the impression that he had been fighting to see his children and I had been denying him. But thanks to my documentation (please all BSs you must document everything!!!) there is masses of evidence to prove he always had access. He really does have a bizarre relationship with the concept of "truth".
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/08/17 01:57 PM
Today WH is suddenly all sweetness and light, sending emails signed "with love".....and by coincidence he seems to be in a panic (as evidenced by URGENT emails to our parenting plan mediator) about the prospect of having to pay fees for the American International School rotflmao

His playboy lifestyle is going to be difficult to maintain when 75% of his income is coming to me and the kids dance2
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/09/17 09:21 AM
Love letter/email from WH today.

[STARTS]
African city, June 9, 2007.


Ten years ago I was in African City. Today was the birthday of a journalist that I had just taken on a mission in North Eastern African Country, where an Ebola epidemic just broke out recently. She was British. It was interesting to see in this woman the puzzlement she had for simple things like how do pineapple grow or how to wash her hair in the absence of shower and bathtub.
I took her out that night and I did not know then that it will be the beginning of a 10 years adventure. 10 years of great and worse especially on my part. She has always been there for me, always been supportive and most problem I had were in my mind and not from her.
This year will be the first year since that night of 2007 that I do not talk to her, touch her or spend time with her on her birthday.
Since then she gave me fantastic children, a place I call home and partnership in this adventure we call life. But above all this, she gave me love. Unconditional love. Was I always worth her love? No. Of course no. But that does not mean that I did not need it.
I need it. I need her. And I love her. She does not believe it no more but it is the truth.
Today - ten years later, I am in African City. Alone. She was supposed to fly in and we go to that same restaurant we went to. Or another one. A better one. At least we would be in African City. The time is not right though. Will we have 10 more years together? I want to but only God knows.
Today, amidst all the turbulence of life, I just want at least a one day truce. I just want to wish you happy birthday and wish that tomorrow, next month, next years be better than the past ones.
You are a fantastic woman, a great Mum, and the best spouse I would ever had.

Happy Birthday!

May God bless you.

With Love

Your [WAYWARD] Husband

[ENDS]

Translation: I REALLY REALLY don't want to pay those school fees.....


Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/09/17 02:25 PM
Chalk, you need to do a better job of patching up the holes in your plan B. Letters like this must not slip through. He is playing with you. Whether it is about the school fees or that he is missing his children is not the point. You cannot be reading this kind of stuff.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/09/17 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Chalk, you need to do a better job of patching up the holes in your plan B. Letters like this must not slip through. He is playing with you. Whether it is about the school fees or that he is missing his children is not the point. You cannot be reading this kind of stuff.

Hi Living Well, the court ordered us to communicate directly (specifically removing an IM) after the hearing on access to kids last week. But the judgement only applies in this country, so when I move in 2 weeks time I can block him out again. I agree, this direct contact makes it really difficult for me to focus.

Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/09/17 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[quote=living_well]But the judgement only applies in this country, so when I move in 2 weeks time I can block him out again. I agree, this direct contact makes it really difficult for me to focus.

But how will he know that you have someone else filtering out this stuff?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/10/17 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[quote=living_well]But the judgement only applies in this country, so when I move in 2 weeks time I can block him out again. I agree, this direct contact makes it really difficult for me to focus.

But how will he know that you have someone else filtering out this stuff?

Hmmm. Yes, so I could just auto-forward his messages to my IM you mean? That's a good idea...
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/10/17 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[quote=living_well]But the judgement only applies in this country, so when I move in 2 weeks time I can block him out again. I agree, this direct contact makes it really difficult for me to focus.

But how will he know that you have someone else filtering out this stuff?

Hmmm. Yes, so I could just auto-forward his messages to my IM you mean? That's a good idea...
Yes we call it a secret IM. The IM only sends you the pertinent information then your response is copied to the WH and they think it is coming from you and you're being protected from the garbage the WH sends you (like his last worthless message trying to gaslight you). We don't recommend this unless legally being forced to direct contact.

You can also set up that the IM checks this email account so they see all the messages first and the BS doesn't ever log into the email account at all.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/10/17 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
[quote=living_well]But the judgement only applies in this country, so when I move in 2 weeks time I can block him out again. I agree, this direct contact makes it really difficult for me to focus.

But how will he know that you have someone else filtering out this stuff?

Hmmm. Yes, so I could just auto-forward his messages to my IM you mean? That's a good idea...
Yes we call it a secret IM. The IM only sends you the pertinent information then your response is copied to the WH and they think it is coming from you and you're being protected from the garbage the WH sends you (like his last worthless message trying to gaslight you). We don't recommend this unless legally being forced to direct contact.

You can also set up that the IM checks this email account so they see all the messages first and the BS doesn't ever log into the email account at all.

Thank you! This is really a great idea. I'm so calm and happy when I don't hear anything from him. Life is just simple (as simple as it can be with four kids and a full time job...)
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/12/17 02:38 PM
It really does mess with your head to read pretend affection/love from your WS, doesn't it? I am really down after the weekend thinking of what a pathetic lack of effort WH has put in to saving our family. Four months of plan B and he can only muster one email that is mostly self-pity because he's alone and feeling the pinch financially?!? This secret IM thing is definitely the way to go. Although I think I want him to try to come back if only so that I get a chance to tell him "no way!!!"
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/12/17 02:53 PM
Chalk, I'm sorry but you are not in Plan B. You have continued contact in a million ways. I understand some of this is court ordered, but want to make sure you understand that this is not Plan B and will not help you the way a true Plan B will. I also don't want other posters reading to think that this is what Plan B looks like because it isn't.

Hopefully when you move you can go into Plan B and truly reap the benefits of it.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/12/17 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Chalk, I'm sorry but you are not in Plan B. You have continued contact in a million ways. I understand some of this is court ordered, but want to make sure you understand that this is not Plan B and will not help you the way a true Plan B will. I also don't want other posters reading to think that this is what Plan B looks like because it isn't.

Hopefully when you move you can go into Plan B and truly reap the benefits of it.

I know frown. I was for a while until WH got all crazy towards the end of April, and then all the court stuff came. But will be back in Plan B properly when we move.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/19/17 09:55 AM
We are finally moving country - hurrah! Just some last minute complications to do with OC (I think Living Well predicted it a while ago). WH did not sort out OC's paperwork properly so he now does not have a visa for the neighbouring country where we are moving and, because I am not his legal parent or guardian, I am not able to sort out this problem myself.

WH has essentially left his child, who needs visas to travel everywhere, in a foreign country with someone (me) who has no legal authority over him, and has failed to make any arrangements for him. That is what happens when a fogged out wayward has responsibilities, I guess. WH is now acting as though he is doing me a favour by trying to fix the issue, somehow ignoring the fact that this is someone else's child that I am raising as a result of his appalling behaviour and that I am taking him with me to a new life because of my sense of love and responsibility towards an innocent child that his biological parents don't seem to share.

If the worst comes to the worst, WH will have to fly here and pick OC up and apply for a new visa for him from his home country. It would traumatise OC, but there is nothing I can do to prevent it. I will file for emergency parental rights if we manage to get OC into the country. I don't think WH will want to keep him, but it is difficult to predict what a crazy person will do.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/19/17 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
If the worst comes to the worst, WH will have to fly here and pick OC up and apply for a new visa for him from his home country. It would traumatise OC, but there is nothing I can do to prevent it. I will file for emergency parental rights if we manage to get OC into the country. I don't think WH will want to keep him, but it is difficult to predict what a crazy person will do.


This is not the action of a crazy wayward, it is a targeted attack on the one vulnerable spot you have. Stay calm and strong. Tell WH that you will be delighted to leave OC with him.

Of course in the meantime you will quietly make plans and get great legal advice . . .
Posted By: Brits_Brat Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/19/17 03:29 PM
Chalk,

See if there is a legal proceeding in your country that allows you to be declared OC's legal guardian on the theory your WH and the mother abandoned the child with you.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/21/17 02:11 PM
Thanks Living Well and Brits Brat. It seems as though there is no option but for OC to travel back to his home country to apply for a new visa for the neighbouring country where we are going to be living. Even if I were his legal guardian, we would not be able to do the visa paperwork from this country where we are currently residing because my husband has now left and we don't have a valid reason for living here (we can stay here legally, but we can't apply for visas from here because we need someone with a work permit in order to do that. I work in the neighbouring country so don't have a work permit here).

It is now a question of hoping that WH will do the visa paperwork and send OC back to me and his siblings once we have moved. I think he will. No matter how much he wants to hurt me, surely he won't keep OC away from his brothers and sister now that they are all so close and happy?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/21/17 02:23 PM
All these problems with visas and passports have meant I am in more or less constant contact with WH. It is extremely stressful, even though he is far less crazy than he was when he was here.

It has also become clear to me that my attempts at Plan B before now gave WH the impression that he was on holiday from marriage. He is so totally confident that he is the most desirable man on the planet, he thinks he just has to wait it out while I get over my emotions and then ask him to come back. He told me yesterday he had planned to "give me a year" to get over it and then we will all move on with our lives as a family. He thinks he is on a one year holiday! It seems that even if I am not speaking to him, the fact that he can tell people that I am his wife and we have four children, and show them our photos, fills a lot of emotional needs for him because people look at him with respect and admiration because of the status I bring him. He also tells people he is "sacrificing for the family" by working alone in another country which brings wholly undeserved additional respect from others.

It is really really galling to see, but I guess that is why I desperately need to be back in Plan B.

Should I send a new plan B letter when I move? Or just stop the direct communication as soon as it is feasible?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/21/17 02:34 PM
Can't this contact all go through your IM?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/21/17 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Can't this contact all go through your IM?

Hi BrainHurts, not at the moment because WH got a court order from the children's court to ensure that I communicate with him directly on matters relating to the children. It is only valid as long as we are in this country though.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/21/17 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Can't this contact all go through your IM?

Hi BrainHurts, not at the moment because WH got a court order from the children's court to ensure that I communicate with him directly on matters relating to the children. It is only valid as long as we are in this country though.
Is the contact trough email?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/22/17 05:31 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Can't this contact all go through your IM?

Hi BrainHurts, not at the moment because WH got a court order from the children's court to ensure that I communicate with him directly on matters relating to the children. It is only valid as long as we are in this country though.
Is the contact trough email?

Hi BrainHurts, through sms at the moment. It is things that need immediate answers eg, if I am at the high commission and they need a document from WH, I have to ask him then and there.

He is trying to make OC travel to his home country ALONE. A 6 year old!! It is as if he is thinking about moving a bag not a human being. It is not even a direct flight. I am appalled at the total and utter lack of effort he makes for anyone. How difficult is it to buy a plane ticket and come and pick OC up himself? He is rolling in money, so finances are not an issue. He just does not even consider the option of making effort himself for his child. It is the same thing with his parents. His father had a stroke three weeks ago. And while WH was eager to jump on a plane to come here to abuse me through courts, he has not even tried to go and see his father (who lives in the same country as him) whom he claims to love and respect so much that tears come into his eyes when he talks of him. His parents would never complain because they don't realise the cost of a plane ticket is peanuts to him. But I see it. And I am totally disgusted.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/22/17 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He is trying to make OC travel to his home country ALONE. A 6 year old!! It is as if he is thinking about moving a bag not a human being. It is not even a direct flight. I am appalled at the total and utter lack of effort he makes for anyone.


I am sure that you are now understanding that you enabled this by being his in-house problem solver. So stop solving his problems for him! What about giving him a deadline? Say that OC will be arriving on his doorstep on xyz date unless he has sorted out the visa by then.

Of course you will need to be able to deliver on this threat. You may need to employ someone to escort OC to him. He is so not going to want that to happen.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/22/17 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He is trying to make OC travel to his home country ALONE. A 6 year old!! It is as if he is thinking about moving a bag not a human being. It is not even a direct flight. I am appalled at the total and utter lack of effort he makes for anyone.


I am sure that you are now understanding that you enabled this by being his in-house problem solver. So stop solving his problems for him! What about giving him a deadline? Say that OC will be arriving on his doorstep on xyz date unless he has sorted out the visa by then.

Of course you will need to be able to deliver on this threat. You may need to employ someone to escort OC to him. He is so not going to want that to happen.

I am discovering that I have enabled SO MUCH! It is such an eye opener. And yes I think you are right that I need to set and enforce really firm boundaries now to stop!

I am trying. But he is now pushing back with all this rubbish about how I have never respected him, that I want to show everyone that I wear the pants in our house, that I am telling him what to do, etc. Apparently, that is what the court thing was about too: it was all about me telling him if he told me he was coming at 10am to pick up the children, I said he must come at that time or forfeit the visit altogether.

I will stop this behaviour right now. I mean, I will stop my enabling behaviour and stop listening to him pushing back against my boundaries.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/22/17 01:35 PM
At least he is far away now so that his reactions to my setting boundaries can't lead to violence anymore.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/22/17 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
At least he is far away now so that his reactions to my setting boundaries can't lead to violence anymore.
Nooo
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/23/17 06:40 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
At least he is far away now so that his reactions to my setting boundaries can't lead to violence anymore.
Nooo

Hi Living Well, do you mean I shouldn't be comforted by him being far away at all? I guess he does only have to hop on a plane to abuse me.

One other observation from this drama is that he suddenly seems like he couldn't care less about visiting this country, so I guess that means OW is out of the picture. I assume he has moved on to others in his new location....

Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/23/17 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hi Living Well, do you mean I shouldn't be comforted by him being far away at all? I guess he does only have to hop on a plane to abuse me.

I was terribly upset about the violence. Nobody should ever have to go through that.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/23/17 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I assume he has moved on to others in his new location....
I think your assumption is correct. Serial Cheaters are always on to their next "high".
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/27/17 07:04 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hi Living Well, do you mean I shouldn't be comforted by him being far away at all? I guess he does only have to hop on a plane to abuse me.

I was terribly upset about the violence. Nobody should ever have to go through that.

Thank you! I am so grateful for my restraining order.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/27/17 07:58 AM
WH has arrived back in the country to take OC to his home country. They are flying out at 4pm today. OC is really upset. We all are. He said "I think I feel the same as you. I don't want to be near Papa because he has a girlfriend". Apparently the visa could take 6 weeks. I am trying to make my husband buy the return ticket today before they leave, so that at least there is money committed to OC coming back to us in our new location (and money seems to be all important to WH...), but I'm not sure I will win that fight. What is WH going to do with a 6 year old boy living with him for 6 weeks? I really hope OC won't just get passed around between various relatives while WH goes out enjoying his single life. That was the life we took him away from to start with.

Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/27/17 11:02 AM
Oh I'm so sorry for your precious DS. Has WH committed (not that it will mean anything) to having DS return to you?
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/27/17 02:04 PM
I'm so sorry for you and your little boy. Legalities fail the little ones sometimes and this is definitely such a situation. I will pray for him to stay safe and strong and return to you asap.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/29/17 01:03 AM
***EDIT***
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 06/30/17 02:53 AM
***EDIT***

I want to say that I believe it would be good for you to contact Dr. Harley direct (not sure if you have before) for advice on implementing Plan B in your pending move. Your situation IS very
complicated and unusual due to different local laws, the aggressive nature of your WH, and just simply matters of trying to protect your family, so it seems you haven't been able to really implement a Plan at all.

I just wish you the best, and please keep yourself and your family safe as you move and go forward.

Tom







Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/03/17 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Oh I'm so sorry for your precious DS. Has WH committed (not that it will mean anything) to having DS return to you?

Hi BrainHurts and Unwritten, thanks a lot for your kind words. Yes, WH has committed to sending him back - he bought the return flight (and paid for it!) before he left the country. He even gave me the reciept and e-ticket printout as evidence. We are talking to OC every day on skype and he is desperate to come home. I don't think WH will decide to keep him. He wouldn't be able to explain it to all the kids. And that's quite different from trying to manipulate me.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/03/17 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by unwritten
I'm so sorry for you and your little boy. Legalities fail the little ones sometimes and this is definitely such a situation. I will pray for him to stay safe and strong and return to you asap.

Thanks Unwritten. WH did the visa application the first day he returned to his home country and then scanned the reciept and sent it to me. So at least I have confirmation of both the return air ticket and the fact that the visa was applied for. Now we just have to wait for the embassy to respond.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/03/17 04:10 PM
The move is finally done! So we are installed in our new place. But waiting for our furniture to arrive. It is really lovely to be starting a new life in a new place without all the baggage and triggers. But with OC not with us and the financial stuff still not sorted out, there are some loose ends.

I met with my lawyer last week and he is intending to serve WH with a new restraining order (for this jurisdiction), an interim maintenance order, and divorce papers when he comes to deliver OC back (since I now have a copy of his e-ticket and know that he will be travelling on August 11).

I just want to get the money sorted out so that I don't have to think about WH anymore.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/03/17 06:49 PM
WH is now travelling for a week for work. So OC is in a flat all day every day with a daytime nanny and nighttime baby sitter (a younger cousin of my husband's) frown. The country he is in does not really have any public leisure facilities like parks. So he is just in the flat watching TV in a language he doesn't understand. One week gone, five more to go...

I'm getting to the point where i just want WH to be out of my life totally. I am so tired of him now that I can see his lack of effort towards everything and everyone in life. It is suddenly so clear to me how he has always used his amazing powers of charming and manipulation to get everyone around him to be falling over themselves to meet his needs, while he just sits back and laps up the attention. His pathetic attempts to try to get me back simply involve making me aware that, despite all the supposedly terrible things I have done to him (telling people he was having an affair, throwing him out, getting a restraining order, etc), he is "allowing" me to try to make it up to him - if I give up my job, move myself and the kids to his country (with no legal protection for women whatsoever), and don't put any conditions on him for changing his behaviour.

It is absolutely mind boggling how he fails to comprehend (or pretends to fail to comprehend) that I have left him and that me and the children are starting a new life without him. He doesn't even believe I am divorcing him (the summons can't be served until he is physically in the country on Aug 11). He thinks I am on a campaign of hate against him and have fabricated all the stories of violence by paying people to make false statements to the police confused .

Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/03/17 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
WH is now travelling for a week for work. So OC is in a flat all day every day with a daytime nanny and nighttime baby sitter (a younger cousin of my husband's) frown. The country he is in does not really have any public leisure facilities like parks. So he is just in the flat watching TV in a language he doesn't understand. One week gone, five more to go...

Whilst of course this is not great for OC, it is actually an excellent thing for your settlement as WH is not likely to try to use OC as target practice with this experience so fresh in his memory.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He thinks I am on a campaign of hate against him and have fabricated all the stories of violence by paying people to make false statements to the police confused .


The more disjointed his thinking, the better the outcome will be for you.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/05/17 06:53 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
WH is now travelling for a week for work. So OC is in a flat all day every day with a daytime nanny and nighttime baby sitter (a younger cousin of my husband's) frown. The country he is in does not really have any public leisure facilities like parks. So he is just in the flat watching TV in a language he doesn't understand. One week gone, five more to go...

Whilst of course this is not great for OC, it is actually an excellent thing for your settlement as WH is not likely to try to use OC as target practice with this experience so fresh in his memory.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He thinks I am on a campaign of hate against him and have fabricated all the stories of violence by paying people to make false statements to the police confused .


The more disjointed his thinking, the better the outcome will be for you.

Thanks Living Well. That is encouraging to hear!!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/05/17 09:34 AM
With all the drama that has happened over the past few months, I have not really stopped to think about how hurt I am by all of this. Now the kids and I have moved, and this is the first day of work at my new office, I suddenly feel as though I have been hurling around in a whirlwind and have just been dropped down in the middle of nowhere wondering "what on earth just happened?!"

Six months ago, we had a two-parent family unit and were planning a permanent move to my husband's home country to start building the rest of our lives after several years of expatriate positions. Now I am a single mother with four kids trying to work out how I am going to afford to cover all the costs of raising them and trying to save for my future. I started this journey desperate to save my marriage and family. I now can't imagine wanting my husband back unless he had a total personality transplant and came crawling with proof his life is an open book. I have learnt that I don't have to be fearful of putting myself in a situation where I have to rely on my husband to behave properly, beset with anxiety that he will let me down again. Because I simply won't be in such a situation. Why would I put my life and happiness in the hands of a self-focused serial cheater?! Of course I won't!

It now seems totally bizarre that a random woman from southern africa is suing me while also being on bail for assaulting and threatening me. I bet she feels it is a bit bizarre too, given that her ex-boyfriend left the country two months ago and has no intention of coming back.

Despite the fact that it has been a wild ride, this MB forum has guided me through a process that has empowered me in ways I could not have dreamed of at the start. I have taken control of my life, of my children's lives, and have woken up to the fact that at least 50% of the problems in my marriage were caused by me enabling my husband to treat me terribly and facilitating his cheating by giving him a nice home and family to come back to. There is no way I would - or could - go back to being that wife who leaves her entire life up to chance, crying at night and hoping so hard that her husband suddenly decides to just behave better because, you know, that is what a good person would do....

My eyes have been truly opened to the uncomfortable truths about the way human beings behave in relationships. And while it is distressing to have most of your preconceptions shattered to start with, it is also so enlightening to begin to understand that appalling behaviour follows some kind of predictable pattern even if that pattern defies normal logic and moral reasoning.

My re-start of plan B is today. And I am looking forward to all the things I will be doing for myself and the kids and our new house. I have spent the past 8 years commuting between countries, driving 5-6 hours one way several times a month, plus having three children (six pregnancies!!), all because WH demanded that I work abroad in order to provide the family with security while he drove 5 mins to work and back, slept his way through the women in the country, and came home to a happy and welcoming family home with freshly cooked food on the table by 7pm every day, with a wife so tired she was only too grateful to be left to sleep on the sofa while he went out to paint the town red. He had it all. Now I wonder: what was I thinking??!!!

Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/05/17 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My eyes have been truly opened to the uncomfortable truths about the way human beings behave in relationships. And while it is distressing to have most of your preconceptions shattered to start with, it is also so enlightening to begin to understand that appalling behaviour follows some kind of predictable pattern even if that pattern defies normal logic and moral reasoning.


There is a cycle to grief, CS Lewis wrote a wonderful book (A Grief Observed) about it after his wife died. It starts with deep anger that God could do such a terrible thing and he temporarily loses his faith. It ends with an understanding that loss is part of life. That there is a cycle of learning through suffering without which we cannot gain wisdom.

Once you get to the end of this process that you are now going through, you will find rewards that you cannot even yet imagine. Give it five years.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/05/17 02:38 PM
I'm so happy that you'll be able to get into a true, dark Plan B and know that you will continue to become a MB success story. I know you might not be able to save your marriage, but I have a feeling you will be one of our MB personal success stories.

I'm sorry for the stage of grief you're in and I understand that very much. How is your self-care.? Are you doing anything for yourself?
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/06/17 03:50 AM
Chalk,

I realize now that you're move is completed that there is a time to think about the past and what could be (i.e., the grief). But, even in this, please don't blame yourself or think of yourself as enabling. You trusted, and loved, and hoped, which are very good things, but often times some who are closest to us take advantage of this for their selfish interests. So, I doubt you enabled - I think you tried to love unconditionally and you were taken for granted. I hope you have an individual and personal faith you can turn to because I do feel that God does allow these tragedies to happen to us all - some serious and some minor - but, if only in a prayer or a whisper, He welcomes us to call Him for grace in these times. I also just want to say that you are a very admirable person, and I hope that after this situation settles for you, that you will stay here on the MB forum to try to provide advice and guidance in the future for those facing similar pain.

Take care,
Tom


Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/06/17 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My eyes have been truly opened to the uncomfortable truths about the way human beings behave in relationships. And while it is distressing to have most of your preconceptions shattered to start with, it is also so enlightening to begin to understand that appalling behaviour follows some kind of predictable pattern even if that pattern defies normal logic and moral reasoning.


There is a cycle to grief, CS Lewis wrote a wonderful book (A Grief Observed) about it after his wife died. It starts with deep anger that God could do such a terrible thing and he temporarily loses his faith. It ends with an understanding that loss is part of life. That there is a cycle of learning through suffering without which we cannot gain wisdom.

Once you get to the end of this process that you are now going through, you will find rewards that you cannot even yet imagine. Give it five years.

Thanks Living Well. I will look for that book. I am already feeling the benefits of all the wisdom gained through this experience and reflections on the past 10 years. But I can see that it is a work in progress because I am still so tangled up in the trauma. I can't imagine how I might enter a future relationship with so much fear and anxiety connected to triggers resulting from WH's behaviour. I am genuinely afraid of phones and instant messaging, for example, and feel very anxious seeing anybody being too attached to their phone. Does anyone know if Dr Harley has advice about how to deal with this kind of aversion? Although its not in the context of recovering the relationship, I really would like to be able to be in public without feeling suspicious anxiety about what everyone is doing with their phones!
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/06/17 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thanks Living Well. I will look for that book.
You can download it onto a Kindle, it is very short.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am genuinely afraid of phones and instant messaging, for example, and feel very anxious seeing anybody being too attached to their phone. Does anyone know if Dr Harley has advice about how to deal with this kind of aversion? Although its not in the context of recovering the relationship, I really would like to be able to be in public without feeling suspicious anxiety about what everyone is doing with their phones!


It is called PTSD my friend. I remember that stage. It will pass, be kind to yourself. Find joy in the small things around you.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/06/17 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
I'm so happy that you'll be able to get into a true, dark Plan B and know that you will continue to become a MB success story. I know you might not be able to save your marriage, but I have a feeling you will be one of our MB personal success stories.

I'm sorry for the stage of grief you're in and I understand that very much. How is your self-care.? Are you doing anything for yourself?

Hi BrainHurts, thanks a lot for your kind words. I do feel that this process has been a success for me so far - especially now the move is done. There is still the unresolved issue of money, but I think my lawyer is going to do a good job of holding WH to account. We are planning to serve him with an emergency maintenance order, a restraining order and divorce papers when he gets to the airport after bringing OC back.

And, yes, self care is top of the agenda now!! I am really loving the process of kitting out the new house and decorating in the way I want things to be. The kids and I are making plans for all the fun stuff we want to do now that we live in a place with normal facilities like cinemas and shops. We are starting a regular movie night on Fridays (which the kids are ecstatic about since we have lived in a country without a cinema for the past 10 years), I've joined the gym which is 5 mins walk from my new house, and arranged to go along to a regular community dog-and-kid walking group at the weekend. I'm also doing a wardrobe make over (well, it will happen over a few months to allow for cash flow...) and have found local places for hair and nails so that I can feel better about myself and cover these grey hairs!

I'm suffering a bit from the effects of moving since I have been driving backwards and forwards between old and new places (5-6 hours drive each way) six round trips in the past two weeks trying to sort out the complicated moving process with two cars, a dog, three kids (while OC is away), and a nanny with only me to do all of it. The last of our furniture was finally picked up by the removals people yesterday, so I will only need to do one more round trip at the weekend to return the keys to the landlord and organise a clean up of the empty place. Now the frustration is waiting for our furniture to be delivered to the new place. Although I can drive it in 6 hours, apparently it takes the removals truck a week.....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/06/17 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thanks Living Well. I will look for that book.
You can download it onto a Kindle, it is very short.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am genuinely afraid of phones and instant messaging, for example, and feel very anxious seeing anybody being too attached to their phone. Does anyone know if Dr Harley has advice about how to deal with this kind of aversion? Although its not in the context of recovering the relationship, I really would like to be able to be in public without feeling suspicious anxiety about what everyone is doing with their phones!


It is called PTSD my friend. I remember that stage. It will pass, be kind to yourself. Find joy in the small things around you.

Thanks Living Well. I am definitely finding joy in small things. You would not believe how exciting it is for me to drive to work and sit in an office for 8 hours then drive home again, after years of trying to juggle working partially from home with frequent trips away and catering for all the needs of four kids and a husband laugh
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/07/17 03:39 AM
Hmmm. Dark plan B is difficult when WH is not paying maintenance. I have a lawyer working on it, but he was supposed to send money at the beginning of the month and he only sent 50% of what he was supposed to. We have to wait until he arrives in the country in August to serve him with papers, so what do I do until then? Should I just not comment on it and liquidate some assets to cover my costs?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/07/17 04:22 PM
Did you already let him know through the IM what he needs to pay?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/11/17 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Did you already let him know through the IM what he needs to pay?

Hi BrainHurts, yep and we also have a social worker/mediator who is helping us to resolve disagreements about the kids' school. But WH does not respect agreements and, just in the same way that he did everything possible to frustrate arrangements for seeing the children when we were still in the same country (not turning up until hours later than agreed, refusing to respect the arrangements, etc), he does everything possible to make transferring money as difficult as possible. He does not send the right amounts. He refuses to send proof of payment so I can see when the money was sent and follow up with my bank. He divides the money he sends into several small payments and sends them to different accounts of mine over several days, so I can't easily track them down. He makes up new excuses every month for why he is not sending what he is supposed to. And he is now accusing me of being racist in the way I am talking to him because I am asking for proof of payment from the bank, not a screen grab from his online banking (which only shows his reference name for the payment not the actual details of sending or recieving accounts). He lies and evades accountability about EVERYTHING all the time. It is totally exhausting. And it makes it next to impossible not to communicate with him because, if I don't, I will not get any money at all until the court processes are done - and that could be months. And he is so good at lying that if he is allowed to present his excuses to other people, they will believe that he is "trying". With the false proof of payment, for example, he will convince everyone that he is sending me documentation that is sufficient. But it is not! And because other people are not so used to his extremely devious ways of lying and avoiding accountability, they will not have the appropriate level of scrutiny like i do.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/11/17 08:46 AM
I was feeling very frustrated that this maintenance issue is giving WH power in a situation where he should have no power - and having money to burn is supporting his fogged out state. So I have been wracking my brain to think of a way that I can take power back, get around the fact that I need him to send me money, and remove his ability to mess me around and stress me each month.

This is my solution: since I have all the marital assets (two cars and a house that is rented out) in my name, I am going to take advantage of that and sell off the house and one car and then use that money to pay rent, school fees, health care, ulilities and legal fees for a year or more in advance. By doing that, I am taking away assets from the marital estate and using that money to benefit the children and I in the long term, while also not accumulating large amounts of cash that would have to be divided in the divorce. Since payments for school fees, rent and healthcare cannot be labelled as undermining the marriage, these payments could not be taken off my share of the marital estate when it is finally divided (dissipation of marital assets). Also, paying these things in advance does not lessen WH's obligation to contribute to 60% of all those costs, just buys me the time to work through the court process and lawyers to get it out of him.

In the country where I am living, assets are divided at the point of divorce not at the point of filing, so I think it makes financial sense to dispose of cash and assets now (especially if I can use them in ways that will free up my salary in the months ahead). This strategy will also mean that the divorce focuses mainly on WH's hidden assets in his home country which should place additional pressure on him. I think he has been assuming that if he allows me to keep the house and cars, then my lawyers will leave his assets in his home country alone. No chance!
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/11/17 12:07 PM
You are buying yourself a year of reduced stress. Smart girl! Don't forget to consult a financial expert on this, he might have some other tips for you.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/11/17 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I was feeling very frustrated that this maintenance issue is giving WH power in a situation where he should have no power - and having money to burn is supporting his fogged out state. So I have been wracking my brain to think of a way that I can take power back, get around the fact that I need him to send me money, and remove his ability to mess me around and stress me each month

This is a marathon, not a sprint. Your WH is doing this out of spite because he is angry.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
This is my solution: since I have all the marital assets (two cars and a house that is rented out) in my name, I am going to take advantage of that and sell off the house and one car and then use that money to pay rent, school fees, health care, ulilities and legal fees for a year or more in advance. By doing that, I am taking away assets from the marital estate and using that money to benefit the children and I in the long term, while also not accumulating large amounts of cash that would have to be divided in the divorce.

His anger is going to last a lot longer than these assets. As soon as he discovers what you are doing, he is going to cease all support payments. Once you have burned through the assets, what are you going to do next? Think chess game here. My WXH was able to stretch out the divorce process for five years (assets divided on divorce like yours) and has still not divided the assets that were under his control. We are on our 14th law suit.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
This strategy will also mean that the divorce focuses mainly on WH's hidden assets in his home country which should place additional pressure on him.


Here is what I suggest (20:20 hindsight is a great thing). First see if you can get his employer to take the maintenance/support payments out of his wages. I seem to recall he has a US employer so this should be possible. Evidence of his mucking you around is all you need for this.

Then start the process asap of discovering his assets. You will need a court order giving you discovery, ideally this should be done in secret. Think about where the hidden assets might be now. Once you have a paper trail, the rest is easy. I was able to find and freeze assets that had gone to a secret account in Luxembourg.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/13/17 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I was feeling very frustrated that this maintenance issue is giving WH power in a situation where he should have no power - and having money to burn is supporting his fogged out state. So I have been wracking my brain to think of a way that I can take power back, get around the fact that I need him to send me money, and remove his ability to mess me around and stress me each month

This is a marathon, not a sprint. Your WH is doing this out of spite because he is angry.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
This is my solution: since I have all the marital assets (two cars and a house that is rented out) in my name, I am going to take advantage of that and sell off the house and one car and then use that money to pay rent, school fees, health care, ulilities and legal fees for a year or more in advance. By doing that, I am taking away assets from the marital estate and using that money to benefit the children and I in the long term, while also not accumulating large amounts of cash that would have to be divided in the divorce.

His anger is going to last a lot longer than these assets. As soon as he discovers what you are doing, he is going to cease all support payments. Once you have burned through the assets, what are you going to do next? Think chess game here. My WXH was able to stretch out the divorce process for five years (assets divided on divorce like yours) and has still not divided the assets that were under his control. We are on our 14th law suit.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
This strategy will also mean that the divorce focuses mainly on WH's hidden assets in his home country which should place additional pressure on him.


Here is what I suggest (20:20 hindsight is a great thing). First see if you can get his employer to take the maintenance/support payments out of his wages. I seem to recall he has a US employer so this should be possible. Evidence of his mucking you around is all you need for this.

Then start the process asap of discovering his assets. You will need a court order giving you discovery, ideally this should be done in secret. Think about where the hidden assets might be now. Once you have a paper trail, the rest is easy. I was able to find and freeze assets that had gone to a secret account in Luxembourg.

Thank you so much living well. This is really invaluable advice!!! Yes, I can get what they call a garnishment order to take money straight from his salary, so it is essentially paid to me by my company. I have started the process here, but it will take about three months to get the court order and then he has to not pay the ordered amount for 10 days to give me the right to apply for a garnishment order.

I am so horrified at the thought of 14 lawsuits since I am already on number 6.....and we only separated in February!! Does your ex carry the costs of these suits? And if so has he paid?

I have a very good salary, so I can cover all the costs of the family myself if I need to and am not in a financially precarious situation. I am just really concerned that WH will get away with hiding all this money and not paying what he is supposed to - and that makes me mad mad

I had one stroke of luck last week. In the house move, I discovered an entire suitcase of documents that I had neglected to throw out with WH when I threw the rest of his stuff out. It includes folders with receipts and financial statements for ALL the investments he has made in land and property in his home country. Ironically, the date of the first receipt is one day after our marriage. So I have proof of everything up to the point of our separation for his home country. Now I am looking into anything he might have bought or purchased in the country we were resident in until last month, and then any assets or funds that might have been hidden since February this year. Thank you so much for helping to clarify what I should focus on!
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/13/17 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Thank you so much living well. This is really invaluable advice!!! Yes, I can get what they call a garnishment order to take money straight from his salary, so it is essentially paid to me by my company. I have started the process here, but it will take about three months to get the court order and then he has to not pay the ordered amount for 10 days to give me the right to apply for a garnishment order.

Perfect and that takes you out of his games.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am so horrified at the thought of 14 lawsuits since I am already on number 6.....and we only separated in February!! Does your ex carry the costs of these suits? And if so has he paid?

Technically yes he pays. In practice he claims to be penniless. Hence the Luxembourg freeze.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I have a very good salary, so I can cover all the costs of the family myself if I need to and am not in a financially precarious situation. I am just really concerned that WH will get away with hiding all this money and not paying what he is supposed to - and that makes me mad mad

You might have to let it go.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I had one stroke of luck last week. In the house move, I discovered an entire suitcase of documents that I had neglected to throw out with WH when I threw the rest of his stuff out. It includes folders with receipts and financial statements for ALL the investments he has made in land and property in his home country. Ironically, the date of the first receipt is one day after our marriage. So I have proof of everything up to the point of our separation for his home country. Now I am looking into anything he might have bought or purchased in the country we were resident in until last month, and then any assets or funds that might have been hidden since February this year. Thank you so much for helping to clarify what I should focus on!


Excellent, keep your cards close. Important he not know how much information you have. It is possible that you will need to wait till after the divorce is final to get discovery. Remember that his earnings post filing are his separate property except for whatever is required to be paid out for support. He will try to play games with this but you are entitled to know it all.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/13/17 11:24 AM
Hi Living Well,

A few more questions for you: how was your exWH able to string out the divorce so long? Was it you who filed or him? And did you use a forensic accountant for the discovery of the foreign assets? Thank you!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/13/17 11:32 AM
My WH has threatened to file in his home country (where everything is possible through bribes) to prevent me from doing things properly, but I don't think he really will. He still doesn't believe I am actually divorcing him. It is frustrating that not being able to serve him papers until he is in this country is making him think I am making idle threats. It allows him to continue his self-deception that he is the most desirable man in the world and no woman could possibly not want him.

I did a bit of reading about his country's divorce law and it seems that we have to be physically separated for at least 3 years before he can file, and adultery is a crime punishable by prison or fines (theoretically - although I really doubt any man has EVER been prosecuted for cheating, which is something considered as normal as eating dinner over there), so I don't think it would be in his interest to go down that route. By contrast, the country where I am resident has a fairly quick no-fault divorce process that only requires one year of separation if there is no other grounds for divorce (if it was him that wanted to file). I have plenty of grounds so have no need to wait though.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/13/17 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hi Living Well,

A few more questions for you: how was your exWH able to string out the divorce so long? Was it you who filed or him?

I was the classic innocent victim and he is a Harvard Law School grad. I filed for divorce citing adultery. He said he would challenge the cause meaning I would have to haul the Fat Slag into a court room. My lawyer suggested we compromise by letting him file for desertion instead. Massive mistake as it meant he controlled the calendar. Then he objected, appealed and delayed again and again. At one point he claimed to have had a religious conversion and could no longer get divorced, yup you could not make it up. Eventually I got my judgement of divorce. He slipped up and forgot to appeal that. Had he appealed, the divorce would have taken a further year.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
And did you use a forensic accountant for the discovery of the foreign assets? Thank you!

No although we may have to go that route now. With discovery, I was able to get access to all the bank statements going back to the first filing. It then became obvious where the transfers were going so following the threads was not hard. Luxembourg was just a lucky break, we were on a terrorist mission there. Did not expect to find anything. There are lots of other foreign assets.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/13/17 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He still doesn't believe I am actually divorcing him. It is frustrating that not being able to serve him papers until he is in this country is making him think I am making idle threats.

No more threats. Go quiet. Softly softly catchee monkey.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/14/17 07:40 AM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
You are buying yourself a year of reduced stress. Smart girl! Don't forget to consult a financial expert on this, he might have some other tips for you.

Thanks Goody2Shoes! That's a good idea. I met with a tax consultant last week (just because I have moved country and become liable for tax here now), but he didn't seem to be too helpful with the strategic moving of money stuff. So I will look for another financial advisor who can help.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/17/17 08:22 AM
We have been talking to OC every day on Skype. But this weekend he has just been in tears during the calls, unable to talk properly. This morning WH sent me an email to say that on Saturday OC went to visit his biological mother, after WH and OC met a cousin of hers by chance when they were out grocery shopping on Saturday morning.

OC doesn't remember his biological mother. And he doesn't speak her language anymore. But WH thought it was fine to drop OC at her house, and leave him there alone to be bombarded with attention by enthusiastic relatives (this is a large African family living in a poor area which means the lifestyle is very communal - people are always everywhere and the idea of a nuclear family is quite foreign) all desperate to talk to him.

The predictable result was a traumatised OC crying that he doesn't want to be a "special boy who has two mothers" anymore, he only wants his English mother and he wants to come home to his brothers and sister. I just want him home. I am so worried that he will be scarred as a result of this experience. Or that his biological mother will withdraw her consent for adoption now that she sees how he doesn't want to be in his home country anymore.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/17/17 08:28 AM
We are anticipating that OC's visa for the country where I am now living will be out in 3 more weeks. But I guess a lot can change in that time.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/17/17 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The predictable result was a traumatised OC crying that he doesn't want to be a "special boy who has two mothers" anymore, he only wants his English mother and he wants to come home to his brothers and sister. I just want him home. I am so worried that he will be scarred as a result of this experience. Or that his biological mother will withdraw her consent for adoption now that she sees how he doesn't want to be in his home country anymore.


He is missing you which is not at all surprising. This visit is not going to scar him. Once he is a teenager and starts asking the inevitable 'who am I' questions, he may want to visit again.

Hard to know how his birth mother will react. Presume giving up the child was due to communal pressure because he was born out of wedlock. That pressure will not have gone away. So whether she is upset or not, unlikely that her family will permit her to change her mind. You should send her a photo of him once a year and let him write. Even if she cannot read, a letter from him would help them both.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/17/17 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The predictable result was a traumatised OC crying that he doesn't want to be a "special boy who has two mothers" anymore, he only wants his English mother and he wants to come home to his brothers and sister. I just want him home. I am so worried that he will be scarred as a result of this experience. Or that his biological mother will withdraw her consent for adoption now that she sees how he doesn't want to be in his home country anymore.


He is missing you which is not at all surprising. This visit is not going to scar him. Once he is a teenager and starts asking the inevitable 'who am I' questions, he may want to visit again.

Hard to know how his birth mother will react. Presume giving up the child was due to communal pressure because he was born out of wedlock. That pressure will not have gone away. So whether she is upset or not, unlikely that her family will permit her to change her mind. You should send her a photo of him once a year and let him write. Even if she cannot read, a letter from him would help them both.

Thanks Living well. Yes, it was due to pressure and the fact that they are from a country that assumes children belong to the father rather than the mother. All that happened when we brought OC to live with us was that my husband had to sign an affidavit saying that he acknowledged paternity and that he was bringing the child to live in his marital home. OC's mother had to certify that she had never been married to my husband and that she consented to him coming to live with us - although you are right she had no real choice.

Her father has since died, so that dissipates family pressure from her side; however, money, as always, is the main concern. Initially, she thought having my husband's child would give her a life-long revenue generating asset. When he was two years old, I woke up to that fact and demanded that I take over all communication with her and sending of money so that WH had no contact. Very soon afterwards, her family approached his family for negotiations over us taking him. She is now getting money from another man.

I think that annual letters are a very good idea. I want OC to be able to establish the relationship properly when he is ready, but to keep the door open in such a way that doesn't conflict with his strong desires to be just the same as his brothers right now. It is so difficult to navigate between everyone's self interest in this situation - and to work out where the line is between his mother's desire to see and interact with him, and what I think he needs (to feel a sense of belonging to a stable loving family with his siblings).
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/17/17 11:23 AM
When I first found this website it was Dr Harley's advice about no contact with the mother of an OC that really impressed me - because I could see how important it was for us, having been through that situation (and, I think, successfully managed it so far). But it is still so controversial an idea with anyone else I speak to. It seems very hard for people to get their heads around how it could be a good thing for there to be no contact between a biological mother and her child, especially if she is not a drug addict or abuser (which she is not). But for us it has honestly helped give OC a deep sense of emotional security at a crucial time. These first few years of a child's life are so short and so important. She will always be his mother and, when he is old enough, we will give him all the support he needs to establish a relationship with her as and when the desire, and maturity, comes. But we really felt that frequent contact from her (which was what she wanted) was extremely disruptive to our family and confusing to him, so we stopped it fairly shortly after he came to live with us.

If I put myself in her position, I know how incredibly painful it would be not to see and speak to my children. But, in this situation, prioritising her pain would have had detrimental effects for him - and risk the family environment for his siblings too. Sometimes I wonder whether I think that just because that is the best situation for me, too. I guess it is hard to really know your own motivations, even if you think you are acting selflessly.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/17/17 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
If I put myself in her position, I know how incredibly painful it would be not to see and speak to my children. But, in this situation, prioritising her pain would have had detrimental effects for him - and risk the family environment for his siblings too. Sometimes I wonder whether I think that just because that is the best situation for me, too. I guess it is hard to really know your own motivations, even if you think you are acting selflessly.


It sounds as if that would have been an incredibly unhealthy place for him to grow up in. I cannot believe that the taboos against immoral behaviour would not have made him feel excluded by his extended family when he was no longer an adorable little boy.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/17/17 03:04 PM
Under normal circumstances I would think it a good idea to stay in contact with the birth mother, exchange photos, etc. But in your complex and volitile situation, I would caution you against doing this. I think staying as far away from the birth mother (also former AP), who is also a connection to your volitile WH, and this whole crazy life you are escaping from, is in everyone's best interest. And I don't think it is bad at all for you to look at this from a perspective of what is best and easiest for YOU. After all, keeping you healthy and safe is also best for OC.

I would encourage you to ask Dr Harley for his opinion on this if you question how to handle it.

And prayers for OC, that he handle this well emotionally and return to you safely and soon.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/18/17 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Under normal circumstances I would think it a good idea to stay in contact with the birth mother, exchange photos, etc. But in your complex and volitile situation, I would caution you against doing this. I think staying as far away from the birth mother (also former AP), who is also a connection to your volitile WH, and this whole crazy life you are escaping from, is in everyone's best interest. And I don't think it is bad at all for you to look at this from a perspective of what is best and easiest for YOU. After all, keeping you healthy and safe is also best for OC.

I would encourage you to ask Dr Harley for his opinion on this if you question how to handle it.

And prayers for OC, that he handle this well emotionally and return to you safely and soon.
I agree. I think Dr. Harley would tell you to continue NC with the OC's birth mom. Will you write Dr. Harley and ask him?
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/18/17 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
I agree. I think Dr. Harley would tell you to continue NC with the OC's birth mom. Will you write Dr. Harley and ask him?


Just to clarify, my suggestion was that OC write to his birth mother once a year/send a photo, not that Chalk be in touch with her.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/19/17 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by unwritten
Under normal circumstances I would think it a good idea to stay in contact with the birth mother, exchange photos, etc. But in your complex and volitile situation, I would caution you against doing this. I think staying as far away from the birth mother (also former AP), who is also a connection to your volitile WH, and this whole crazy life you are escaping from, is in everyone's best interest. And I don't think it is bad at all for you to look at this from a perspective of what is best and easiest for YOU. After all, keeping you healthy and safe is also best for OC.

I would encourage you to ask Dr Harley for his opinion on this if you question how to handle it.

And prayers for OC, that he handle this well emotionally and return to you safely and soon.
I agree. I think Dr. Harley would tell you to continue NC with the OC's birth mom. Will you write Dr. Harley and ask him?

Thank you Living Well, Unwritten and Brain Hurts. Yes, I think I will write to Dr Harley. I haven't spend too much of my thread focused on OC (apart from the visa issue) because i felt as though we had worked through it fairly successfully, albeit with a lot more trauma and suffering for me than would have been necessary had I known about MB at the time. However, the fact that I obviously didn't deal with the issue of WH's infidelities in a way that would have prevented his philandering becoming an entrenched part of our married life, means the pain of OC's conception, birth and first two years of life living with his birth mother, is still quite raw for me, even though I have had lots more pain and betrayal to deal with since then. I am triggered every time I see his birth certificate, for example, and since we need to present birth certificates for everything in this part of the world, it's a routine challenge. But the fact that OC loves me and his siblings with such a passion (WH definitely less so), and has done from the first moment that we picked him up from his original home in 2014, really helped me with the process of integrating him into the family. Sometimes I think we have an extra special bond because of this experience: we were the two victims of what happened and we have supported each other to deal with the pain.

I'll let you know what Dr Harley says.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/20/17 11:37 AM
Just phoned my health insurer and discovered that WH stopped paying our account at the end of April. So the kids and I have been driving hundreds of kms all over the country during the move with no medical insurance. Of course there are a thousand excuses for why he wasn't able to pay: he transferred the debit order to another account and somehow it didn't active, then he had to settle the outstanding months before the insurer would reactivate the plan, then for some reason the payment didn't go through......just like the maintenance payments.....

My WH seems to have amazing difficulties with banks. I don't have any problem paying things and providing proofs of payment. But for him, despite running a national office of a US company and employing 200 staff, it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay a bill, wire money or obtain statements from banks because "they just don't get back to me". He claims not to know what a proof of payment is and why it is different from a screen grab. We are talking about a medical doctor with three advanced degrees and years of experience as the managing director of a national office. Anyone else experienced such a case of infidelity-induced selective incapacity?!
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/20/17 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Just phoned my health insurer and discovered that WH stopped paying our account at the end of April. So the kids and I have been driving hundreds of kms all over the country during the move with no medical insurance. Of course there are a thousand excuses for why he wasn't able to pay: he transferred the debit order to another account and somehow it didn't active, then he had to settle the outstanding months before the insurer would reactivate the plan, then for some reason the payment didn't go through......just like the maintenance payments.....
Keep careful records. This will all be super helpful when you ask his employer to garnish his wages.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Anyone else experienced such a case of infidelity-induced selective incapacity?!

Fun and games through the five years of divorce? I remember it well. My investment banker XWH was incapable of handling the simplest transaction. Oh except those that involved transferring marital assets overseas of course.

Cancelled our medical insurance (illegally) the day that No1 daughter was getting a major operation on her knee. Fortunately the operation itself was pre cleared but it messed up the rehab something horrible.

I was stopped by the police for driving an uninsured car. That left me carless as I could not insure a car that was not in my name. I'm sure he found that one hilarious.

This too will pass.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 07:44 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Just phoned my health insurer and discovered that WH stopped paying our account at the end of April. So the kids and I have been driving hundreds of kms all over the country during the move with no medical insurance. Of course there are a thousand excuses for why he wasn't able to pay: he transferred the debit order to another account and somehow it didn't active, then he had to settle the outstanding months before the insurer would reactivate the plan, then for some reason the payment didn't go through......just like the maintenance payments.....
Keep careful records. This will all be super helpful when you ask his employer to garnish his wages.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Anyone else experienced such a case of infidelity-induced selective incapacity?!

Fun and games through the five years of divorce? I remember it well. My investment banker XWH was incapable of handling the simplest transaction. Oh except those that involved transferring marital assets overseas of course.

Cancelled our medical insurance (illegally) the day that No1 daughter was getting a major operation on her knee. Fortunately the operation itself was pre cleared but it messed up the rehab something horrible.

I was stopped by the police for driving an uninsured car. That left me carless as I could not insure a car that was not in my name. I'm sure he found that one hilarious.

This too will pass.

Thanks Living Well. I always appreciate hearing from your experience since your ex and mine seem like they are cut from the same cloth. I'm so sorry for you and your children!

I do chuckle to myself a little bit when these things happen, though, because WH really does not have a grasp on the whole documentation/evidence thing and I don't think he realises that he is gifting me concrete examples to use in court. Thanks to his and OW's legal actions over the past 6 months (coupled with my work experience) I have become quite comfortable with lawyers, documents, court orders and processes, so I am more than happy to put these things in front of a magistrate and eliminate all (or most of) WH's manipulation of others.

One thing I am struggling with at the moment is WH's insistence in his daily skype calls to the kids that he misses them and loves them so much. It really makes me angry to hear these empty words. He hasn't seen them in a month. And even though he travelled through this country two weeks ago, managing to find time to go out drinking before flying out the next day, it didn't even occur to him to drive 20 mins from the airport to see his children. He left OC at home with a nanny for 8 days while he went on a work trip to Madagascar, but is now claiming he can't leave OC for a single night in order to visit his other three children. It really shows where his priorities are.

As you can probably see, I am still not managing to Plan B at all. We have pretty much daily contact because of him not sending money, not paying bills, and phoning every single day on Skype with OC. The urgent maintenance order papers will be filed next week, along with a new protection order application for this country, and OC should be back by mid-August. Once all those things are complete, I should be able to cut out communication altogether.



Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
We have pretty much daily contact because of him not sending money, not paying bills, and phoning every single day on Skype with OC. The urgent maintenance order papers will be filed next week, along with a new protection order application for this country, and OC should be back by mid-August. Once all those things are complete, I should be able to cut out communication altogether.
Not sending money is his way to get his dose of daily contact, he gets a reward for not paying. There is no reason for him to pay, because this gets him what he wants: your precious time and control over you. By not sending money, he buys your attention.
Don't talk with him about it every day, don't reward him for this, be boring. If it needs to be adressed, ask a professional (your lawyer) to contact him.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
We have pretty much daily contact because of him not sending money, not paying bills, and phoning every single day on Skype with OC. The urgent maintenance order papers will be filed next week, along with a new protection order application for this country, and OC should be back by mid-August. Once all those things are complete, I should be able to cut out communication altogether.
Not sending money is his way to get his dose of daily contact, he gets a reward for not paying. There is no reason for him to pay, because this gets him what he wants: your precious time and control over you. By not sending money, he buys your attention.
Don't talk with him about it every day, don't reward him for this, be boring. If it needs to be adressed, ask a professional (your lawyer) to contact him.

Thanks Goody2Shoes. I know this is the right advice. But I am struggling to implement it. For example, today, now that I have found out we do not have medical insurance, I am desperate to resolve the situation. It is an awful risk for myself and the children. My husband has forwarded me the last communication he had with the insurer from July 3rd. He was supposed to pay the outstanding monies in order for them to reactivate the insurance coverage. Now he is telling me that I must pay it and he will reimburse me. However, because I have just moved our entire family to another country, and forked out thousands of dollars for house deposit, furniture, handymen to fix stuff, etc, and paid for repairs on two cars, I now have zero cash. I would have to arrange an overdraft to pay the money. I can do that - but only if I am SURE he would reimburse me. And since he has totally failed to send the right money all the other times he has said he would, I do not trust him.

I have told him that he should make the transfer to me immediately and then send me the proof of payment, so that I can pay the insurer with full confidence that he has already sent me money to cover it. But he hasn't done it. So now I am in this limbo of not being able to act because I can't take the risk of paying with him not reimbursing me. It is a lot of money to cover three month's medical insurance for a family of six on top of an international move and the car issues.

I'm still in the process of organising the sale of our house, so I just don't have the cash. Should I just accept to live without health insurance until he sorts it out himself? Or should I take the financial risk, knowing that he is very unreliable about sending money and that it could take months to get the money back through lawyers?? And should I really not send him messages reminding him how urgent it is that our children have medical insurance?!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 09:26 AM
PS. I have tried to transfer the insurance to my name so that I can control it, but the insurer won't do that until the contract renewal at the end of the year.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
For example, today, now that I have found out we do not have medical insurance, I am desperate to resolve the situation.
During this time, you have proved to be a very strong, intelligent and capable woman who can overcome any problem. I am not in a position (lack of knowledge on legal and financial matters) to tell you how to handle this problem, but I know you are capable of finding a solution.

I once had a friendship gone bad, because of a shared hobby we had a shared bank account (young stupid me). This person tried to control me by not wanting to discuss dividing hobby items and not wanting to dissolve the account. Mails went back and forth, he was getting my (negative) attention.
Until I gave him an ultimatum to tell me what items he wanted, or I would sell everything within a month. He told me he wanted everything, so I let him have everything, except for control and contact.
After dissolving the mutual account, he made a monthly transfer of 1 dollar to my regular account, to give me a monthly reminder. I opened a new bank account, so I didn't see this monthly reminder (after 8 years he finally stopped).

Find a way that gives you minimum despair and maximum control.

Look at your situation from helicopter-view. What is your main goal? These hurdles, although big ones, are distracting you from that goal. He is doing a pretty good job pulling your strings. Don't let him know it affects you this much. If you have to (I believe the judge ordered you) communicate directly, communicate by mail. And don't mail with him if you are emotional. Re-read your communication after a day and take out everything about children and family, just mention cold dates and cold numbers.
If it comes up during Skype with OC, refer to your written message and focus on communication with OC. Communication with OC should be without him being present, if OC needs help with Skype, he can leave the room after the connection is established. There is no need for him to be in the room.

I know it's hard, but if WH doesn't get his reward anymore, eventually, pulling your strings will become boring and it will stop.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 10:13 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
One thing I am struggling with at the moment is WH's insistence in his daily skype calls to the kids that he misses them and loves them so much. It really makes me angry to hear these empty words.
Leave the room when they Skype.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
For example, today, now that I have found out we do not have medical insurance, I am desperate to resolve the situation.
During this time, you have proved to be a very strong, intelligent and capable woman who can overcome any problem. I am not in a position (lack of knowledge on legal and financial matters) to tell you how to handle this problem, but I know you are capable of finding a solution.

I once had a friendship gone bad, because of a shared hobby we had a shared bank account (young stupid me). This person tried to control me by not wanting to discuss dividing hobby items and not wanting to dissolve the account. Mails went back and forth, he was getting my (negative) attention.
Until I gave him an ultimatum to tell me what items he wanted, or I would sell everything within a month. He told me he wanted everything, so I let him have everything, except for control and contact.
After dissolving the mutual account, he made a monthly transfer of 1 dollar to my regular account, to give me a monthly reminder. I opened a new bank account, so I didn't see this monthly reminder (after 8 years he finally stopped).

Find a way that gives you minimum despair and maximum control.

Look at your situation from helicopter-view. What is your main goal? These hurdles, although big ones, are distracting you from that goal. He is doing a pretty good job pulling your strings. Don't let him know it affects you this much. If you have to (I believe the judge ordered you) communicate directly, communicate by mail. And don't mail with him if you are emotional. Re-read your communication after a day and take out everything about children and family, just mention cold dates and cold numbers.
If it comes up during Skype with OC, refer to your written message and focus on communication with OC. Communication with OC should be without him being present, if OC needs help with Skype, he can leave the room after the connection is established. There is no need for him to be in the room.

I know it's hard, but if WH doesn't get his reward anymore, eventually, pulling your strings will become boring and it will stop.

Thank you Goody2Shoes. I think you are right about me rewarding WH - and about finding a solution! I have decided to remortgage the house while I am waiting for the sale. I just phoned the bank and they said they can transfer money today on the same conditions as the mortgage I just paid off in March. So I am just off to the bank now to sign the papers!

With this arrangement, WH cannot hold me to ransom with money stuff, the sale of the house is still proceeding (and will pay off the mortgage in full when it is done), and I give myself some breathing room to wait for the legal processes to work. Phew! Also, since I have tenants in the house anyway, their rent pays the cost of the mortgage every month, so I am not really losing anything by renewing the loan.

Now I will DEFINITELY stop communicating with this crazy person!! (And maybe I will buy myself some new clothes to make myself feel better too ;))
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 01:01 PM
House remortgaged. Money in my account already!

dance2
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 01:09 PM
WH just sent me a message saying if Hilary Clinton could put up with her husband's behaviour, what makes me think I am so special to divorce him?

banghead
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
House remortgaged. Money in my account already!


100% perfect solution. Aren't you glad the house was in just your name weightlifter
Posted By: JanetS Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 02:42 PM
I read a quote recently that went something like this....

It's better to have people THINK you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove them right.

Somehow it came to mind when I read what your WH just said to you. Unbelievable...well maybe believable as I've read your thread and he is way out there.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by JanetS
I read a quote recently that went something like this....

It's better to have people THINK you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove them right.

Somehow it came to mind when I read what your WH just said to you. Unbelievable...well maybe believable as I've read your thread and he is way out there.


Don't spend any time thinking about why waywards say what they say or do what they do. Just concentrate on protecting yourself from being able to read/hear/know about it.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 04:27 PM
This tells you 2 things: he does not see you as special enough to expect more, and he has no intention of changing his behavior but rather expects you to put up with it.

This just makes it easier to go into Plan B and have nothing to do with him.
Posted By: Bellevue Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/21/17 08:41 PM
You are much better than Hillary Clinton. And you're not living Hillary's life; you are living your life.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 03:55 AM
I recieved a reply from Dr Harley. Here is what he says:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Hi Chalkncheese,

I've had so much experience with situations like yours, and their ultimate outcome, that I have generally advised wives in your situation to avoid bringing the child of their husband's affair into the marriage (see my article, "What to do with a child of an affair"). The main reason is that very few women can put up with the mother of that child, her husband's lover, being a part of the family. As you put it, your mental health is at stake.

There is, however, one possible way that you can keep the child and your sanity all at the same time: Divorce your husband. While that may seem like a peculiar idea at first, I think that you'll find that once you have your husband completely out of your life with no hope of reconciliation, your relationship with the child's mother could actually be much improved, and the two of you could work together on deciding what would be the best for that child.

The other alternative is to send the child back to his mother, encouraging him to accept her as his own. If you ever would reconcile with your husband, I doubt very seriously that you could continue to raise that child with the other woman's constant interference. And I can't imagine that the other woman would ever want to abandon her own child.

If you have not already done so, you should also read my article, "What to do with a serial cheater." The chances that your husband will never have another affair is very remote, even if he were to come back to you, hat in hand, expressing great remorse. While I have examples of those who have been successful, they represent just a handful of the hundreds of cases I've witnessed where the cheating husband cheats throughout his life, leaving behind many women whose lives have been greatly damaged.

Dr. Harley
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 04:02 AM
Dr Harley's advice has really made me think. I have already started the divorce process and am meeting my lawyer again on Monday, but I had not considered how it could bring a positive change the dynamics around my relationship with OC's mother. Of course with my husband out of the picture, the pain I associate with her now would cease to be an issue. We would just be two women who love this child and want the best for him. I am now considering reaching out to her directly to perhaps forge an agreement with her about OC's future, indepdent of whatever WH does. That hadn't occured to me at all before but I think she might be quite supportive of the idea of me continuing to raise OC with his brothers (with all the opportunities that I, my education, my money and my nationality can give him) if she were able to see him occassionally.

I am really impressed how Dr Harley makes you think about courses of action that you might never have considered. Thank you to everyone who advised me to contact him.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 04:07 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
This tells you 2 things: he does not see you as special enough to expect more, and he has no intention of changing his behavior but rather expects you to put up with it.

This just makes it easier to go into Plan B and have nothing to do with him.

Yes! This is exactly how I feel. It is shocking to feel his disrespect for me - and marriage - in such a blunt way, but it does help to clarify the mind....

He feels absolutely entitled to behave however he likes and believes that I am destroying the family by saying I will not put up with it. Jaw dropping arrogance. I really really hope some karma comes his way soon.....although I am getting to a place where it doesn't matter to me whether he wakes up or not. I love my new life and there is no way I would go back to being treated like he has treated me for 10 years.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 04:08 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
House remortgaged. Money in my account already!


100% perfect solution. Aren't you glad the house was in just your name weightlifter

SOOOO glad!!!!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by JanetS
I read a quote recently that went something like this....

It's better to have people THINK you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove them right.

Somehow it came to mind when I read what your WH just said to you. Unbelievable...well maybe believable as I've read your thread and he is way out there.


Don't spend any time thinking about why waywards say what they say or do what they do. Just concentrate on protecting yourself from being able to read/hear/know about it.

Definitely!!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by JanetS
I read a quote recently that went something like this....

It's better to have people THINK you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove them right.

Somehow it came to mind when I read what your WH just said to you. Unbelievable...well maybe believable as I've read your thread and he is way out there.

Hi Janet, he is definitely embarrasing himself without any help!! He also fired off an angry email to the kids' new school full of spelling mistakes and raw emotion (i had to register them because the school year is due to start on August 9 and I can't risk them not having a place while WH argues about school fees) saying he will not be paying any bills. I bet that makes them think he a wonderful father - NOT!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by Bellevue
You are much better than Hillary Clinton. And you're not living Hillary's life; you are living your life.

Thank you Bellvue. Yes, this whole process has really helped me realise that this is MY life and if I don't look out for myself then no one else is going to!! Looking around to other people's experiences and trying to adjust your own behaviour according to what is "normal" will just make you miserable. I am so grateful for the perspective that MB has given me that I must not accept to be treated like rubbish. And that not accepting it means removing myself from the situation and focusing on myself. It seems so simple but I had not managed to come to that conclusion myself after nearly 40 years of life!
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Dr Harley's advice has really made me think. I have already started the divorce process and am meeting my lawyer again on Monday, but I had not considered how it could bring a positive change the dynamics around my relationship with OC's mother. Of course with my husband out of the picture, the pain I associate with her now would cease to be an issue. We would just be two women who love this child and want the best for him. I am now considering reaching out to her directly to perhaps forge an agreement with her about OC's future, indepdent of whatever WH does. That hadn't occured to me at all before but I think she might be quite supportive of the idea of me continuing to raise OC with his brothers (with all the opportunities that I, my education, my money and my nationality can give him) if she were able to see him occassionally.

I am really impressed how Dr Harley makes you think about courses of action that you might never have considered. Thank you to everyone who advised me to contact him.
Don't contact OC mother too soon. Although you are very smart and seem to have a clear head, your emotions are not what they will be in the near future. What seems a good idea now might not be the best long term solution for you. The future of OC will effect your future quite a bit.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 02:48 PM
Thank you for sharing Dr. Harley's response. It's nice to have his wisdom on things. I would wait to contact her until after the divorce. Your WH could use that to try and manipulate you more or worse. Is there anyway you can get into Plan B before the divorce? Using a secret IM?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/22/17 08:04 PM
Thank you Goody2Shoes and BrainHurts. I also came to the conclusion that I shouldn't rush into contacting her. I really miss OC and it is frustrating and hard. We are discovering all the new fun things there are to do in the city we have moved to, and he should be with us to see these things. Instead, we tell him stories on the phone and he cries because he is missing out. He has started a campaign to get WH and I to talk to each other. He keeps reporting things that he thinks (in his 6 year old brain) are signs of WH's love for me and fills in the gaps with fantasies about us all being together. WH fuels it all by telling him rubbish about me not wanting him. It's really an emotional mess at the moment and I can't wait until OC is back here and we don't have to have WH's manipulation fed to us through these daily exchanges.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/24/17 09:34 AM
Hi everyone, I went to see my lawyer this morning and have sorted out an urgent maintenance order application. Just waiting to hear the court date. And I have another meeting with a different lawyer on Saturday to start the divorce process properly, including discovery. However, I have started to feel quite panicky at the thought of what we will find out through discovery - and I wondered if any of you have advice about dealing with the anxiety?

I thought if I made a list of the worst things I could possibly imagine discovering, and then tried to get myself used to those ideas, that might help with preparing me for whatever comes out (that is how I have always dealt with anxiety in my life).

First on the list was the worry that there are more extra-marital children and I became so terrified that I emailed WH to ask him straight out if he had any other children he has not previously mentioned. He hasn't responded. But I wouldn't expect him to admit anything anyway. If I've learned anything through this process it is that liars will hang on to their lies until their last breath. So now I am stuck with the issue of how I deal with fear of the unknown and with the very real possibility that I will never know the truth of what has happened in my life since I have been married. Do I just try not to think about it at all?

I just panic when i think of how much money he was earning and wonder where it all went. He spent over 10 000 USD every month (only a fraction of that covering household expenses because I was managing all the bills) and was taking out huge sums in cash and I have no idea what it could have been spent on. We lived in a capital city that was like a village. There was only one bar, one supermarket, a couple of restaurants. Even if he bought all the drinks for all the people in the bar every night, he wouldn't have been able to spend more than 250 USD in an evening - and he only went out once a week anyway. He wasn't sending money out of the country, because there are no forex transactions on the bank statements I have seen (going back to the beginning of 2016). Just all these cash withdrawals. The law prohibits foreign citizens from buying land or property, so he can't have bought assets for himself.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/24/17 11:10 AM
Next time before contacting WH, wait a day and ask here first.

If you need something to calm your nerves for a short time, ask your doctor. He/she might subscribe something like propranolol, this is often prescribed for people to stay calm during their drivers exam. It is also used in different dosages to lower blood pressure.

Thinking of worst case scenario's won't calm you, it will cause yo more stress than you need (otherwise, you wouldn't have mailed your WH!).

Your best weapon is your strategy. You need to go in plan B as soon as possible. By not being in plan B, you make mistakes (like emailing WH).

Don't think of what might have happened. Focus on what is important: creating a safe environment and future for your family. If you discover facts, you can deal with them at that time. You will probably discover more hurtful things, that is why you NEED plan B.

How can you protect yourself from contact with WH? Are you still present when WH and the children skype, or do you leave the room? Can you use a secret IM (someone to answer the text messages and emails without him knowing it isn't you)?

How often are you tempted to contact WH because you miss the man you thought he was?

Next time you are tempted to pick up the phone/write an email/contact him, distract yourself. Run around the house, play with the kids, take a shower, post here. The urge will go away and you won't do something silly like asking a liar to tell you the truth.

Just don't contact him unless you are forced by court order.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/24/17 12:30 PM
Thanks Goody2Shoes. That is really good advice for putting me back on track. Yes, I need to properly plan B. Skype is a problem because of OC. WH sits there with him on his lap. He does leave after a while so I can talk to OC without him there, but he is hanging around just off camera and makes comments to OC that I can hear. So while OC is there it is really really difficult to not have this kind of contact. But only two more weeks to go.

Since the beginning of July, I have also been contacting him most days to ask where the money he was supposed to send me is, and why he hadn�t paid the medical insurance and what I needed to do to sort it out. But I have solved that problem with the remortgage of the house.

I can honestly say I don't miss him at all. I know the man I thought he was is not the real person and I don't seem to have much problem with reminiscing. All my memories of him now are now labelled with a virtual sign saying "WARNING: will cause emotional damage" in my mind, so I don't derive any happiness, love, fondness from any of them. However, I know I could easily love him again if he changed his behaviour and made me feel safe. He's just not showing any sign of doing that.

The other thing that is making me interact with him is his continued pretend efforts to come back and parallel efforts to shame me for destroying our family. He is doing it all the time. He wants to come back without changing. So he continually tells me he loves and misses me, he doesn�t know what he needs to do, that he just wants to talk to me, he wants me to move to where he is, he won�t cheat ever again, etc. Blah blah blah. Then, alternatively, the kids will never forgive me for what I have done, that he will make sure they know I have thrown him out, that I am destroying their future, that he committed to me for life and it is me that is going back on my promise, etc. It is like a constant assault. He tries different approaches every day. Tries to wiggle around the problem every day. And while I know I should just ignore him, him saying these things makes me want to explain myself and explain why he is wrong. So I do what I shouldn�t do and I explain to him over and over again why we are in the situation we are in, and why he is living alone without his family. I tell him words mean nothing and that actions are required. I send and re-send the SAA checklist. He really doesn�t get it. Because he doesn�t want to and he doesn�t want to change. But he can�t comprehend the possibility that there is a situation he can�t manipulate his way out of with words, so he keeps on trying because he can�t believe I am actually divorcing him.

I wish the divorce papers could be served already. And I wish OC was back. I don�t think I can manage plan B while he is still away.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/24/17 12:49 PM
OC is 6, so he can sit without help and without WH being in the room.

Next time, how can you get WH out of the room after the connection is established?

And he gets it. As long as he plays stupid, you will interact.

If you need to respond (which you don't), prepare 2 or 3 short sentences and stand your ground (refer to the checklist). Don't explain. If you don't respond, it will become boring for him. If a slot machine pays out once in a while, a gambler will pull the lever again and again. Be a broken slot machine. Don't pay.

And please please please plug the gaping holes in your non-existent plan B.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/24/17 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
OC is 6, so he can sit without help and without WH being in the room.

Next time, how can you get WH out of the room after the connection is established?

And he gets it. As long as he plays stupid, you will interact.

If you need to respond (which you don't), prepare 2 or 3 short sentences and stand your ground (refer to the checklist). Don't explain. If you don't respond, it will become boring for him. If a slot machine pays out once in a while, a gambler will pull the lever again and again. Be a broken slot machine. Don't pay.

And please please please plug the gaping holes in your non-existent plan B.

You are totally right. I am creating this entire situation frown. I'm sorry for letting you all down. I will stop all communication. It is totally pointless and is keeping me in limbo. I will get my IM to email WH to tell him to call the kids separately on Skype, and let me call OC on his own Skype account with WH out of the way, so that he is not involved in the conversation at all. And I will change my email address again and repeat to myself Suzie Q's advice that there is nothing you can say to wake up a wayward, so there's no point trying. It doesn't even work with the money stuff.

I wish OC was back. I feel like him being with WH has brought WH back into our family without me consenting to it and without him doing anything to change. I am sure he feels like that too and that's why he is emailing me.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/25/17 07:05 AM
Today I want to email WH to ask if he has reactivated our medical insurance yet. I paid the outstanding amount to the insurer on Saturday and sent him proof of payment, but I can't activate it myself because I am not the main member. So I am following Goody2Shoes advice and posting here before doing it. What should I do rather than emailing him?

I also want him to go to the embassy to find out about OC's visa and to ask whether we need to change the category of application from a relative permit to a study visa, or if that can be done once he is back in the country. This is information that can only be obtained from the embassy by WH.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/25/17 08:22 AM
Can you have your IM send it? Can you do the secret IM like I suggested before?
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/25/17 09:38 AM
Would the insurance company be willing to contact WH to reactivate the insurance?
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/25/17 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
However, I have started to feel quite panicky at the thought of what we will find out through discovery - and I wondered if any of you have advice about dealing with the anxiety?

I thought if I made a list of the worst things I could possibly imagine discovering, and then tried to get myself used to those ideas, that might help with preparing me for whatever comes out (that is how I have always dealt with anxiety in my life).


Try this trick (taught to me by my yoga teacher). Write down your three top fears on a little piece of paper and put it into your pocket. Carry it around for a few days and take it out periodically, looking at the words.

Suppose your top fear is 'loss of a child'. You are not going to dwell on 'the worst possible way for a child to die', you are doing to look at those words and bring yourself to a point of peace and acceptance. Life is full of joy. The fears that we hide from ourselves steal that from us.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/25/17 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Can you have your IM send it? Can you do the secret IM like I suggested before?

Thanks BrainHurts. In all the drama of moving and OC going, I had forgotten about the secret IM idea. I have now set up a separate email address that my IM will log into once a day and she will communicate with WH through that, not alerting him that it is her and not me. I hope we can do it right this time. Thank you for continuing to push me back to the right path when i veer off into the wilderness!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/25/17 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Would the insurance company be willing to contact WH to reactivate the insurance?

Thanks Goody2Shoes. They won't even speak to me so I can't ask them to do anything. But my IM will email him later today though the new email I set up so I don't get drawn into any discussions with him. I feel much better with this arrangement already. I just need to stop seeing his messages and then I won't be tempted to respond.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/25/17 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
However, I have started to feel quite panicky at the thought of what we will find out through discovery - and I wondered if any of you have advice about dealing with the anxiety?

I thought if I made a list of the worst things I could possibly imagine discovering, and then tried to get myself used to those ideas, that might help with preparing me for whatever comes out (that is how I have always dealt with anxiety in my life).


Try this trick (taught to me by my yoga teacher). Write down your three top fears on a little piece of paper and put it into your pocket. Carry it around for a few days and take it out periodically, looking at the words.

Suppose your top fear is 'loss of a child'. You are not going to dwell on 'the worst possible way for a child to die', you are doing to look at those words and bring yourself to a point of peace and acceptance. Life is full of joy. The fears that we hide from ourselves steal that from us.

Thanks Living Well. I'll try that. I think that might work for me. I live in a place where tragedies that seem unimaginable to my family in England, thousands of miles away, happen every single day. Just watching the news makes you shockingly numb to the horror of what human beings are capable of doing to each other with (what seems to me) minimal provocation, and the disasters that people can live through and come out the other side. The country WH is from is even worse in some respects: a real Hobbsian nightmare. But somehow the understanding that everything I value in life is precarious, and that the risk of loss is ever present, which something I didn't really feel when I lived in England, has given me a resilience and ability to find happiness after pain that I am very grateful for. Now more than ever.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/26/17 07:19 AM
Everything strangely calm now. That IM email address is great. I wish I had got my act together before now. Although maybe I wasn't in the right frame of mind to do so before lawyers had properly started on the divorce and maintenance paperwork. I feel as though I now have a network of people (lawyers, social worker/mediator, and IM) that can deal with the essentials that require interaction with WH without having to do it myself - and since I have released the money from the house, I don't have the stress of worrying every day how to make him pay what he is supposed to.

Now I can just sit back and focus on me and the kids. I received their acceptance letters for their new school this morning. They will be starting on August 9 - and I think that will be a great new start for all of us.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/26/17 11:02 AM
Good job for getting into a dark Plan B and filling those holes. Now try and schedule some self-care for yourself and the kids. Any ideas?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/27/17 07:13 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Good job for getting into a dark Plan B and filling those holes. Now try and schedule some self-care for yourself and the kids. Any ideas?

HI BrainHurts, I am already on it laugh! Fixed up swimming and karate classes for the kids, we are planning weekends of fun up to August already, and I am really enjoying the process of decorating my new place the way I want it (and it makes me smile to know that spending our family money to make MY environment nice is some compensation for all the money WH has siphoned off for OWs). We joined the gym 5 mins from our house last week - it has a lovely kids' program and play area, so everyone is very happy at the moment! The kids are excited about preparing for the new school year, choosing new bags, stationary, lunch boxes, etc, so all good so far. I got myself a nice new hair cut and clothes shopping will be on the agenda for next month (i've maxed out on house decor this month, so I think I should be a little bit careful before I burn through this mortgage money....)
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/27/17 07:21 AM
I had a call from my MIL last night. It was quite interesting to talk to her. WH has reduced by half the amount of money he is sending to his parents (they totally depend on him/us to cover living costs), claiming that I am taking all his money. I was happy to reveal that that is not true AT ALL, and that he has in fact just got a 50% pay rise and is refusing to give me anywhere near the amount he was formerly contributing to our joint household. I know she and FIL will now be putting major pressure on WH to be honest about his money.

They REALLY want WH to change - but I don't think they know what to do. They keep on calling him and shouting at him, but he just lies to them - and they don't see it.

Anyway, I know nothing anybody says to WH will make a difference. He a hedonist. He lives for the moment. And will do what makes him feel good regardless of anyone or anything else. The only way to change how he behaves is to change how he feels about what he is doing. That will only happen if he suddenly has no money, and feels the loss of the freedom and power money gives him. So I will take his money (at least most of it). And then we will see a different person.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/27/17 07:47 AM
At least it seems the in-laws are back on my side, after their freak out over exposure. Maybe logic does win out in the end. Why wouldn't they support the mother of their four grandchildren who has done NOTHING wrong if they want the best for their son who is obviously incapable of controlling his self-destructive tendencies?
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/27/17 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
At least it seems the in-laws are back on my side, after their freak out over exposure. Maybe logic does win out in the end. Why wouldn't they support the mother of their four grandchildren who has done NOTHING wrong if they want the best for their son who is obviously incapable of controlling his self-destructive tendencies?


I'm betting there is something that they know about which has given your WH such an intense feeling of entitlement. Generally children model the behaviour of their same sex parent.

Don't use contact with them as a way to break your plan B. If they start to talk about WH, ask them not to.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/27/17 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
At least it seems the in-laws are back on my side, after their freak out over exposure. Maybe logic does win out in the end. Why wouldn't they support the mother of their four grandchildren who has done NOTHING wrong if they want the best for their son who is obviously incapable of controlling his self-destructive tendencies?


I'm betting there is something that they know about which has given your WH such an intense feeling of entitlement. Generally children model the behaviour of their same sex parent.

Don't use contact with them as a way to break your plan B. If they start to talk about WH, ask them not to.

Thanks Living Well. Yes, there has definitely been a LOT of betrayal in WH's parents marriage, and they have given WH the idea that married love means women struggling through pain in order to keep the family together. They also believe that we (women) have to endure the bad side of men in order to "win" in the end (the definition of winning being the last one standing with home and family 'intact' at the end of life) and that, since no other woman actually replaces the wife, she is held in some kind of high esteem, despite being treated like rubbish for decades. It is not an uncommon attitude in Africa. Although I think MIL is quite supportive of fighting against conventions and just wishes she had had some kind of power to do so herself.

I don't think she will phone me again. I made it pretty clear there isn't anything here that can be resolved by talking in the absence of action and demonstrable change by WH. And I am enjoying plan B too much already laugh
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/27/17 04:20 PM
So his father cheated on his mother their entire marriage?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/28/17 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
So his father cheated on his mother their entire marriage?

Yes, that is what his sister - and MIL herself - have implied. MIL believes he still does it now, at 74 years old. She came to stay with us for a year to help care for my brother in law who had just been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. She was convinced that FIL, who lives on a large plantation in the middle of the forest in central Africa, had brought another woman into the house while she was gone. WH thought she was just paranoid, but a woman who has been married for 45 years will know her husband. She doesn't want him to behave like that (she doesn't want WH to behave like that either), but is resigned to the fact that she believes there is nothing she can do.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/28/17 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
So his father cheated on his mother their entire marriage?

Yes, that is what his sister - and MIL herself - have implied. MIL believes he still does it now, at 74 years old.


The father of my WXH was still chasing the girls at 74 years old. He was not just cheating on MIL, he was also cheating on his long term girlfriend. MIL said nothing so WXH (who of course knew, they always know) thought that was what you were entitled to do once things started to get tough in the marriage. I wish I had known.
Posted By: buildsherhouse Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/30/17 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The only way to change how he behaves is to change how he feels about what he is doing. That will only happen if he suddenly has no money, and feels the loss of the freedom and power money gives him. So I will take his money (at least most of it). And then we will see a different person.


This jumped out at me. It sounds as if you still think you can change him by going after the money. I think you will be continually disappointed if this is your goal. You can't change him. Serial cheaters seem to be ingenious at figuring out how to continue their lifestyle with or without money.
Let the courts sort out what his responsibilities are and enforce it as they see fit. As long as you are on the other end pulling he's going to try to jerk you around and continue to use up your life and put you on the edge. Can you budget your life on your income and leave whatever the courts might secure you from his income as unexpected extra?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/31/17 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by buildsherhouse
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The only way to change how he behaves is to change how he feels about what he is doing. That will only happen if he suddenly has no money, and feels the loss of the freedom and power money gives him. So I will take his money (at least most of it). And then we will see a different person.


This jumped out at me. It sounds as if you still think you can change him by going after the money. I think you will be continually disappointed if this is your goal. You can't change him. Serial cheaters seem to be ingenious at figuring out how to continue their lifestyle with or without money.
Let the courts sort out what his responsibilities are and enforce it as they see fit. As long as you are on the other end pulling he's going to try to jerk you around and continue to use up your life and put you on the edge. Can you budget your life on your income and leave whatever the courts might secure you from his income as unexpected extra?

Hi Buildsherhouse, yes, that is what I meant. I can't do anything to make him change. People only change when they have to - when it becomes their interest to do so because of external circumstances. But they do change. I have changed many times in my life in response to changes in external circumstances. But I don't think I have ever changed because someone else wanted me to.

My social worker has a nice mantra "it is really hard for people to change when they want to; impossible when they don't".

I can support the children by myself, but I can't reduce my expenses before the divorce because that will impact on the maintenance. I need to be able to provide bills to show how much it costs to maintain the children's current lifestyle. If I reduce their cost of living voluntarily, I am just freeing up WH's money for him!

Don't worry, I am not holding out hope for him to change. I am really happy with my new life with the kids and will be fine no matter what. But I am also committed to making him feel the consequences of his actions. If there are actions I can take that will make him feel the real extent of financial and opportunity loss of his wife and family, then why not? I'm not just going to shrug and say "Be free! Enjoy your single life!" But at least it is through lawyers so it doesn't occupy my mind like it used to.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 07/31/17 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
So his father cheated on his mother their entire marriage?

Yes, that is what his sister - and MIL herself - have implied. MIL believes he still does it now, at 74 years old.


The father of my WXH was still chasing the girls at 74 years old. He was not just cheating on MIL, he was also cheating on his long term girlfriend. MIL said nothing so WXH (who of course knew, they always know) thought that was what you were entitled to do once things started to get tough in the marriage. I wish I had known.

rant2 Sometimes you just have to wonder how people accept so much WRONG in the world!!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/02/17 08:15 AM
I had to go back to our former country yesterday to agree the date for the hearing for OW's assault charges. The hearing is now scheduled for 24th Oct. WH spoke to the kids on skype last night in my absence demanding to know where I was (after the told him my nanny cooked dinner for them) and when he heard I was back in the other country, sent aggressive messages asking why I am going there and if I have a boyfriend there.

I am at a loss to understand how he seems to have totally wiped the events of the past 6 months tortuous treatment of me from his mind. I guess he must not be in contact with OW at all if he was not aware of this court date. Is this amnesia the fog?! I am starting to wonder whether he actually needs psychiatric help.

I feel like I am living in a parallel reality. Did everything only happen to me?! These other two people who caused all this trouble seem not to acknowledge that their actions created this.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/02/17 08:29 AM
Next time, don't read his messages. If you think it might be something important, have your IM read them.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/02/17 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Next time, don't read his messages. If you think it might be something important, have your IM read them.

OK. Will do. It is never important. I did not reply....so I am making progress....
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/02/17 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Next time, don't read his messages. If you think it might be something important, have your IM read them.

OK. Will do. It is never important. I did not reply....so I am making progress....
Why are you receiving messages at all? I thought you were using the IM? Why do you keep breaking Plan B? Do you see how it hurts your own personal recovery when you have contact with him? When are you going to stick to Plan B?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/03/17 06:55 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Next time, don't read his messages. If you think it might be something important, have your IM read them.

OK. Will do. It is never important. I did not reply....so I am making progress....
Why are you receiving messages at all? I thought you were using the IM? Why do you keep breaking Plan B? Do you see how it hurts your own personal recovery when you have contact with him? When are you going to stick to Plan B?

Hi BrainHurts, these questions really made me think. I am struggling to understand myself why I keep breaking plan B.

The reason I got the messages is that while i have blocked WH from all my email accounts, I have an old email in my maiden name that gets autoforwarded to my current married name email. In the aftermath of exposure, WH took my phone and my computer and locked himself in my study changing all my email passwords and security info to his details. When he gave me back my phone, i reset the information on my married name accounts but forgot about that old email account that autoforwards to my current one. Then WH left the country and got rid of his phone number for the country we were living in, which means I now cannot go through the security verification process for that old account even just to close it (I have tried many times). Microsoft just says open another email address and forget about that one. But I cannot stop the autoforwarding. I did manage to divert messages from that account straight to my deleted items folder, but it doesn't work if they come to my phone first (if i am not sitting at my desktop with outlook open). What WH generally does is clusterbomb all my email addresses with whatever he wants to send me. The ones to my work emails bounce back and I never see them. The ones to my married name account are hit with an autoresponse blocking the mail. But the ones to my maiden name account get through and are autoforwarded to the deleted items of my married name account.

Then there is the question of why do I read them. I have thought about this a lot too. I think the reason is objective curiosity about how everything is affecting WH. I don't miss him. I am not pining for him. I am not feeling like my emotions are out of control and that I desperately want contact with him. But, just like any suspenseful drama, I am eager to find out how the story ends. I find it frustrating to leave the story half-way through without knowing the ending - so I think that's why I haven't been good at totally eliminating all avenues through which I can keep vague tabs on the outcome.

The other reason, I think, is to do with the fact that I have found this MB process (the plan, the implementation, the strategic part of it all, the feeling of taking control of my life) quite intellectually stimulating, and so plan B is like coming down from a high. I guess I just need another project related to my new life to focus all my energies on, but challenges energise me and my life has suddenly become all nice and easy.
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/03/17 10:07 AM
You get those emails because you haven't set up a new email-account and are still using a email-account in which WH can contact you.
If you disable your current account, you will not get forwarded emails from your old account. That simple.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Then there is the question of why do I read them. I have thought about this a lot too. I think the reason is objective curiosity about how everything is affecting WH. I don't miss him. I am not pining for him. I am not feeling like my emotions are out of control and that I desperately want contact with him. But, just like any suspenseful drama, I am eager to find out how the story ends. I find it frustrating to leave the story half-way through without knowing the ending - so I think that's why I haven't been good at totally eliminating all avenues through which I can keep vague tabs on the outcome.
I wonder if you would answer that question the same way a year from now.

You know for sure that contact will slow recovery down. If not for yourself, you owe it to your children to be the best mother you can be: a recovered mother. Don't sabotage your recovery.

You don't really need to know why you keep breaking plan B, you need to stop it for the sake of your children.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The other reason, I think, is to do with the fact that I have found this MB process (the plan, the implementation, the strategic part of it all, the feeling of taking control of my life) quite intellectually stimulating, and so plan B is like coming down from a high. I guess I just need another project related to my new life to focus all my energies on, but challenges energise me and my life has suddenly become all nice and easy.
I recognize this from two intelligent, ambitious women I know. They both 'need' to fill their workload up to 95% of their capacity, everything below that is boring. They both have a bit of ADHD which makes them very creative thinkers and good at their job (scientist & business development). They both have a positive outlook on life, but are also at higher risk of having a depression. One of them has bipolar disorder in the family and needs to be alert of signs of depression herself. Also, they both have been in a destructive relationship in the past.


When they go over the 100% too long, they are at higher risk of a burn-out. Because they function so well at 95-100%, they never take enough leisure time to build up their reserve and if there is a calamity, it is easy to get over the threshold where their health gets affected.

If you recognize this in yourself, find something else to keep you in the 95% range. The control you think you have over the situation by keeping in contact with WH might fill some kind of gap for you, but it is damaging you and you need to stop it.

I see this happening everywhere around me. High functioning women who have always been able to keep everything going, are wearing themselves out. Until they are forty they can handle anything, but meanwhile, they have been burning through their reserves without noticing. They also have a very good autopilot, so they can run on empty for even longer.

Not going into plan B will drain your reserves and you won't be able to be the best mother of your children you can be.

I see in you an intelligent, ambitious woman who went to another continent to find love and a career and who is capable of handling everything quite easily. Your exposure was by the book, one of the best I have seen. Unfortunately, your plan B is the worst. Somehow, you don't see the real value of plan B. If you would, you would be in a stellar, watertight, unbreakable plan B.

MB is a fool proof plan, anyone who follows it can recover. You don't need to know why it works (and I bet you want to know the tiniest detail why it works), you just need to follow the plan.

You don't need to do this for me or any other member of this board (we are just some bits and bytes on the internet). If not for yourself, you need to do this for your children.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/04/17 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
You get those emails because you haven't set up a new email-account and are still using a email-account in which WH can contact you.
If you disable your current account, you will not get forwarded emails from your old account. That simple.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Then there is the question of why do I read them. I have thought about this a lot too. I think the reason is objective curiosity about how everything is affecting WH. I don't miss him. I am not pining for him. I am not feeling like my emotions are out of control and that I desperately want contact with him. But, just like any suspenseful drama, I am eager to find out how the story ends. I find it frustrating to leave the story half-way through without knowing the ending - so I think that's why I haven't been good at totally eliminating all avenues through which I can keep vague tabs on the outcome.
I wonder if you would answer that question the same way a year from now.

You know for sure that contact will slow recovery down. If not for yourself, you owe it to your children to be the best mother you can be: a recovered mother. Don't sabotage your recovery.

You don't really need to know why you keep breaking plan B, you need to stop it for the sake of your children.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The other reason, I think, is to do with the fact that I have found this MB process (the plan, the implementation, the strategic part of it all, the feeling of taking control of my life) quite intellectually stimulating, and so plan B is like coming down from a high. I guess I just need another project related to my new life to focus all my energies on, but challenges energise me and my life has suddenly become all nice and easy.
I recognize this from two intelligent, ambitious women I know. They both 'need' to fill their workload up to 95% of their capacity, everything below that is boring. They both have a bit of ADHD which makes them very creative thinkers and good at their job (scientist & business development). They both have a positive outlook on life, but are also at higher risk of having a depression. One of them has bipolar disorder in the family and needs to be alert of signs of depression herself. Also, they both have been in a destructive relationship in the past.


When they go over the 100% too long, they are at higher risk of a burn-out. Because they function so well at 95-100%, they never take enough leisure time to build up their reserve and if there is a calamity, it is easy to get over the threshold where their health gets affected.

If you recognize this in yourself, find something else to keep you in the 95% range. The control you think you have over the situation by keeping in contact with WH might fill some kind of gap for you, but it is damaging you and you need to stop it.

I see this happening everywhere around me. High functioning women who have always been able to keep everything going, are wearing themselves out. Until they are forty they can handle anything, but meanwhile, they have been burning through their reserves without noticing. They also have a very good autopilot, so they can run on empty for even longer.

Not going into plan B will drain your reserves and you won't be able to be the best mother of your children you can be.

I see in you an intelligent, ambitious woman who went to another continent to find love and a career and who is capable of handling everything quite easily. Your exposure was by the book, one of the best I have seen. Unfortunately, your plan B is the worst. Somehow, you don't see the real value of plan B. If you would, you would be in a stellar, watertight, unbreakable plan B.

MB is a fool proof plan, anyone who follows it can recover. You don't need to know why it works (and I bet you want to know the tiniest detail why it works), you just need to follow the plan.

You don't need to do this for me or any other member of this board (we are just some bits and bytes on the internet). If not for yourself, you need to do this for your children.

Hi Goody2Shoes, everything you say is right. I am both a scientist and a business person, I love making stuff happen, and I love devoting huge effort and energy to coming up with plans to beat expectations. I don't think I have ADHD (i really love being lazy in front of the TV too ;)) and I'm very emotionally resilliant rather than depressive, but I am struggling to embrace the calm of doing nothing active to tackle the situation - even though I know it is the best thing for me, for the kids, and for WH.

I just heard 5 mins ago that OC has got his visa, so he will be home within a week. And that makes a HUGE difference. The nightly frustrations of Skype with OC and WH together will be gone, and we will all feel the proper separation between "the family (me and kids)" and WH. With all the kids with me, and the divorce and maintenance stuff now with lawyers, there is not any reason at all for me to contact him, or for him to contact me. I know I should have been able to break contact earlier even with these issues still hanging over us, but it is definitely a lot simpler and easier now.

You're right about the email address. I set up a new one back in March, I think, but didn't do a proper job of switching all my bank stuff, accounts, car stuff, etc, contact details so I never really managed to give up the old one - and told myself that because I had blocked him from most stuff that was OK. But I wouldn't accept that solution as adequate no contact with OW, so why should I give myself lower standards?! I am working on switching everything over properly now, with the aim to have it done by next week so I can properly close down my current email.

Thank you for pushing me!
Posted By: JanetS Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/04/17 02:38 PM
That's lovely about your son getting his visa. That will knock down the stress levels considerably. Congrats.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/04/17 03:04 PM
How did you hear about OC receiving his visa?
Posted By: JanetS Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/04/17 07:44 PM
I read chalkncheese's post from 7:53am today. Sorry, not sure how to put it in quote. She said:

I just heard 5 mins ago that OC has got his visa, so he will be home within a week.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/04/17 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by JanetS
I read chalkncheese's post from 7:53am today. Sorry, not sure how to put it in quote. She said:

I just heard 5 mins ago that OC has got his visa, so he will be home within a week.
Thanks I already saw that. My question is to chalkncheese on how she heard this information.
Posted By: JanetS Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/04/17 08:21 PM
LOL Nevermind!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/07/17 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
How did you hear about OC receiving his visa?

frown Via the same route (clusterbombing of all my email addresses) because I have not closed the old email account yet like I should have done. I'm sorry to everyone for not implementing advice. I've got to let go. It's weird that what should be one of the easiest bits of plan B, is actually hard. Moving was not so difficult because it was full of action and the excitment of a new life and experiences. I am dragging my feet with closing email because it takes quite a lot of admin work to make sure all I switch contacts with all the important places, and I guess I am not properly feeling the urgency of how these contacts from WH are stopping me moving on with my recovery. But rationally I do acknowledge that I mustn't see these things, and it keeps me hooked on the story of what is happening with him. So I need to ignore the feeling bit and just do it. I'm usually so good at that.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/07/17 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by JanetS
I read chalkncheese's post from 7:53am today. Sorry, not sure how to put it in quote. She said:

I just heard 5 mins ago that OC has got his visa, so he will be home within a week.

Thanks Janet S. BrainHurts was 2x4ing me in the most gentle way. But I need it!!
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/07/17 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I have not closed the old email account yet like I should have done.


How hard would it be for you to get that old cellphone number back for a month? Or get the phone company to temporarily forward calls to you? That way you could recover access to the hotmail account and kill it.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/07/17 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by JanetS
I read chalkncheese's post from 7:53am today. Sorry, not sure how to put it in quote. She said:

I just heard 5 mins ago that OC has got his visa, so he will be home within a week.

Thanks Janet S. BrainHurts was 2x4ing me in the most gentle way. But I need it!!
I'm glad my friend, you knew what I was doing. I know you will feel so much better and really start to heal when you close all the Plan B holes.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/08/17 06:35 AM
Zero contact (really proper zero contact) for four days and counting....

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/08/17 09:45 AM
The thing I really struggle with (in trying to maintain no contact) is when I do not have any way to access information that I need in order to plan things in life. For example, WH has still not given me any information about the medical insurance. I do not know if we have cover or not - so I do not know if I will get turned away if I try to take the children to the doctor. Not knowing, and not being able to access the information via any other means other than WH, is extremely frustrating.

Also, now that I know OC has his visa, I need to know when WH will be flying here with him. I need to be at the airport to meet him because I do not want WH to know where we live. Also, I need to arrange for him to be served with the divorce papers at the airport. WH has not answered inquiries from my IM about when OC is travelling, and I don't expect him to. So now I am stuck. I cannot make preparations for OC, I can't answer the school's questions about when he will arrive, I don't know whether I should pay for him to do the same activities as the other two for this month, and we can't plan our family time, etc.

I am trying to just let go of all of this stuff, but these are crucial pieces of information for managing my and the kids' lives and feeling as though I am being deprived of the information is really frustrating.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/08/17 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The thing I really struggle with (in trying to maintain no contact) is when I do not have any way to access information that I need in order to plan things in life. For example, WH has still not given me any information about the medical insurance. I do not know if we have cover or not - so I do not know if I will get turned away if I try to take the children to the doctor. Not knowing, and not being able to access the information via any other means other than WH, is extremely frustrating.

Will the insurance company not confirm coverage? Have you tried contracting them directly. Otherwise ask the doctor's office to do this.

When my son was ill, I had to pay at time of service and then put in a claim. Insurance covered it but the cheque went to XWH. He just trousered the money. Of course you can then net this out at settlement but it is extremely annoying.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Also, now that I know OC has his visa, I need to know when WH will be flying here with him. I need to be at the airport to meet him because I do not want WH to know where we live.

Let WH sort this out. If he does not know where you live, he will have to give you this information eventually. In the meantime, ask OC what his travel plans are.

Surprise is your greatest weapon. Plan on taking someone with you to the airport, maybe your nanny or even a security guard. That way you can sit in the car and not have to see WH.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Also, I need to arrange for him to be served with the divorce papers at the airport.

Oh dear, I hope you have not told WH that you are planning to serve him with divorce papers. If he suspects, it would explain his mucking you about and no amount of contact is going to work. Is there any way that he can find out your address?

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am trying to just let go of all of this stuff, but these are crucial pieces of information for managing my and the kids' lives and feeling as though I am being deprived of the information is really frustrating.


If you are a good organiser, this this stuff will be immensely frustrating.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/08/17 11:12 AM
Hi Living Well,

Thanks very much.

Originally Posted by living_well
Will the insurance company not confirm coverage? Have you tried contracting them directly. Otherwise ask the doctor's office to do this.

I've called them and they say they can't discuss the account with me since I am not the main member and my insurance is inactive.

Originally Posted by living_well
When my son was ill, I had to pay at time of service and then put in a claim. Insurance covered it but the cheque went to XWH. He just trousered the money. Of course you can then net this out at settlement but it is extremely annoying.

Yes, exactly! He would definitely take the money if I claimed, so I guess i just have to hope we don't get sick or injured - or be prepared to pay out of pocket.

Originally Posted by livingwell
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Also, now that I know OC has his visa, I need to know when WH will be flying here with him. I need to be at the airport to meet him because I do not want WH to know where we live.

Let WH sort this out. If he does not know where you live, he will have to give you this information eventually. In the meantime, ask OC what his travel plans are.

I've asked OC but he says he doesn't know. Just that he has found a shop selling a present he wants to buy me so he can't leave before papa has taken him to the shop to buy me the gift (ah, he's so sweet!).

Originally Posted by livingwell
Surprise is your greatest weapon. Plan on taking someone with you to the airport, maybe your nanny or even a security guard. That way you can sit in the car and not have to see WH.

Agree! I've been reading up on the Art of War wink

Originally Posted by living well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Also, I need to arrange for him to be served with the divorce papers at the airport.

Oh dear, I hope you have not told WH that you are planning to serve him with divorce papers. If he suspects, it would explain his mucking you about and no amount of contact is going to work. Is there any way that he can find out your address?

Not to worry! I have not told him (apart from the general discussions in the past couple of months about wanting to divorce him). His not telling me the flight times are characteristic of his behaviour both past and present. He is an EFSP Myers Briggs type and persistently avoids being pinned down to specific times/dates/arrangements lest it restrict his ability to change plans at the last minute. I now understand (after doing a lot of reading about Myers Briggs personality types) that this characteristic explains so much of his crazy behaviour during the period when we were separated but still living in the same country. It also makes me see that he has real trouble with thinking strategically, planning future interventions to get a particular outcome, and predicting the consequences of actions or decisions.

Originally Posted by livingwell
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am trying to just let go of all of this stuff, but these are crucial pieces of information for managing my and the kids' lives and feeling as though I am being deprived of the information is really frustrating.


If you are a good organiser, this this stuff will be immensely frustrating.

Extremely!! I have just learnt I am an INTJ myers briggs type, so about as opposite as it is possible to be from WH (chalk and cheese - hee hee), and very focused on strategy, long term planning, data, information, etc. But this is the last hurdle. When OC is back, I really won't have any reason to rely on him for info at all and the medical insurance is part of the divorce stuff, so i guess i have to be patient about that and make sure my kids don't do too much throwing themselves around.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/08/17 11:47 AM
PS. Just noticed I didn't answer the question about my address. He can't find out my address by himself right now - but it is printed on the summons for the divorce, so he will find out soon. Thankfully, though, we are now living in a security estate with biometric access gates. He can't enter the estate without having had his fingerprints scanned, and that requires me to fill in a form indicating my approval for him to be a visitor.

He would be able to find the kids' school with a quick google search, but I have given instructions to them not to let anyone but me or my nanny collect the children.
Posted By: thndrnltng Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/08/17 01:51 PM
I vote for a security guard and someone (maybe the same person) who will watch to make sure you're not being followed when you leave. Be safe!

tl
Posted By: zibbles Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/08/17 08:16 PM
Chalk, you've heard from others about your inability to plan b. Why would your WH use the IM when you keep having contact? He knows you are not serious about no contact, so until that becomes clear (by you having NO contact), he will assume that you are available to him.

Plan B means not even thinking about the WH. It means redirecting your thoughts when you want to think and talk about him, what he's doing, what he's not doing, etc. etc. You have to stop.

This thread can be a place where you forge ahead and use this space to write about what you are doing to move forward. No more discussion of him or worrying about what he might or might not do. This is serious.

We've had some hard core plan B-ers here on and off over the years. So far, no one's come along to really whip you into shape on this. You must absolutely stop having contact AND stop thinking about him. It takes discipline.

As of now, you have really not begun a real plan B. You've been dilly dallying. It's time to stop.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/10/17 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by zibbles
Chalk, you've heard from others about your inability to plan b. Why would your WH use the IM when you keep having contact? He knows you are not serious about no contact, so until that becomes clear (by you having NO contact), he will assume that you are available to him.

Plan B means not even thinking about the WH. It means redirecting your thoughts when you want to think and talk about him, what he's doing, what he's not doing, etc. etc. You have to stop.

This thread can be a place where you forge ahead and use this space to write about what you are doing to move forward. No more discussion of him or worrying about what he might or might not do. This is serious.

We've had some hard core plan B-ers here on and off over the years. So far, no one's come along to really whip you into shape on this. You must absolutely stop having contact AND stop thinking about him. It takes discipline.

As of now, you have really not begun a real plan B. You've been dilly dallying. It's time to stop.

Thanks Zibbles. I know. I just need my son back. While WH has him, everything is so hard. The rest of plan B is in place. I have moved, he doesn't know where I live, I have got a secret IM email account, and am poised to close down the email - and I can even change my number again. I don't even want to communicate him. I am not struggling with desire to be in touch or anything like that. I just need my son back first. He is supposed to be flying tomorrow lunch time.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/10/17 04:05 PM
So you get your DS today? And then what is your plan to get into a true Plan B?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/11/17 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
So you get your DS today? And then what is your plan to get into a true Plan B?

WH changed the flight. I found out by logging into the airline manage booking system. He rebooked for next Wednesday, then changed it again this morning to next Sunday. I don't think he knows I am able to log in and see these changes.

He was supposed to be served with divorce papers at the airport today, so now I have had to come up with another plan.

I think he will definitely be here for my youngest son's birthday (23rd August). He (youngest son) and OC are extremely close. My mother will also be visiting then too. But it is looking increasingly likely that WH wants to use OC to manipulate the situation and may not just hand him over.

This is exactly like the car situation all over again.

But I will manage it. If I can get OC here to the family house, there is no way WH would be able to get him back unless via courts. And once he is here, the courts here have jurisdiction immediately. We live in a security estate with 24 hour guards on the front gate, so WH can't be violent as a way to force himself in. So I will focus on just getting OC here and then, once he is here, I won't take him anywhere until WH has travelled back to his country. Since he has a full time job as the director of a country office, he can't stay here for more than a week, I think.

I can't believe (or actually, I can believe but am still appalled) that WH is now keeping OC out of school, sitting in a flat on his own watching TV all day, missing his brothers and sister like crazy, just to hurt me.




Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/11/17 07:48 AM
The moment the sheriff serves WH with divorce papers, I will switch to a new phone number and close the only email he can get through to me on. Then it is really proper plan B.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/11/17 08:03 AM
I am also contacting another lawyer today who was recommended by our parenting plan mediator. She is a specialist in children's issues. I will see if there is some way to file for an emergency parental rights and responsibilities order the moment OC gets here, so that I will effectively be a third parent and my consent (along with his two biological parents) would be required for him to leave the country again.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/11/17 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
But it is looking increasingly likely that WH wants to use OC to manipulate the situation and may not just hand him over.


This is your Achilles heel isn't it? Of course he will use OC to manipulate the situation. He has no shame and does not care. As time goes on he will get angrier and angrier.

You may have to get help from OC's mother. Somehow your WH needs to be convinced that you are doing him a favor by taking the child.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I will see if there is some way to file for an emergency parental rights and responsibilities order the moment OC gets here, so that I will effectively be a third parent and my consent (along with his two biological parents) would be required for him to leave the country again.

I am no expert but this feels wrong. Aren't you looking to adopt OC? My sense is that making you a 'third parent' might be going in the wrong direction. Mediators often look for the easiest solution rather than the one that is best over the long term.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/11/17 03:17 PM
C&C,

the more you ask OC about when he will be coming etc and the more your husband notices that you want him to come, the more valuable he will be as a leverage.
It would be a lot better actually if your husband was under the impression that it would cause you some trouble (financial, or energy-wise) to have OC.

We understand that you love him like your own child, because you are a kind-hearted person, but your husband has put you in this situation where you have to accommodate a child he sired with another woman and he is showing his true colours in the way he is now using your selfless love for this child, to turn a knife in your back.
If it was the other way around and it was your child of affair, you can be assured, that your husband would drop the child like a hot potatoe and never look back.

He seems to know your weaknesses, so you really have to stop asking and letting on that you care for OC's presence at all, as hard as it is.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 08:53 AM
Hi Living Well and Happyheart,

Thank you for your thoughts. You are both right. WH does not care about OC in the slightest and is using him as the only thing he has got to hurt me with.

So, just like when he was using money to frustrate me, I have been applying my mind to how to undermine this power - and yes, HappyHeart, I agree I just have to let OC go and stop WH using him to get to me. He will bring him back eventually. He doesn't really want to be a single dad to one child. He just thinks this is the way to "win" the power game.

Last night (after a week or so of no contact - I am trying to Plan B properly) WH sent a flurry of emails informing me that he will not be sending OC back to me, demanding that I send him OC's clothes, and accusing me of turning the other kids against him and preventing him from seeing them (????!!!!). He also demanded that the kids stop asking him when OC is coming back, and added in some emotional manipulation about wanting the kids to see his sick father.

On the daily skype call, he shouted at all the kids, telling my youngest son he wasn't coming to his birthday next wednesday because he "didn't respect his Papa", told my oldest son he was slow at school because he is in the right class for his age rather than one year ahead, and demanded that OC hang up the phone and stop talking to me "because Mama is upsetting you".

This is like what was happening when he left our previous country all over again. I don't know whether it is because i haven't been communicating with him, or whether he is starting to really worry what divorce will mean, but he is acting totally crazy and damaging the kids. My eldest woke up screaming from a nightmare last night for the first time ever (i don't know whether it was related to the shouting skype call, but I suspect) and my youngest son is starting to really act up as if he has some pent up anger. OC is just confused and sad and desperately trying to be a peacemaker to everyone because he wants to come home.

In amongst all of this, I got a call from MIL who said she was also shocked about WH's behaviour and doesn't understand why he wants to keep OC with him. She wants him to come back and live with me and the other kids.

So, I've decided there is nothing I can do at all. I feel so awful for OC, but I think I will get him back eventually. We will continue to talk to him every day. And I will go ahead with cutting off all communication with WH (by closing the last remaining email account he can send stuff to).

I suspect him claiming he is not coming for my youngest son's birthday is just a bluff. I am still able to log into the airline booking system and see that he has not changed the flight that is currently booked for Sunday - but I don't think he knows I can see that. I suspect he will come but not inform me he is in the country, and then try something to get the kids, maybe even going to their school. So I am planning to talk to the school in advance to make sure he won't be given access to the kids, and we have 24/7 security guards at the entrance of our estate so he can't get to our house either.

The most pressing problem is that if I don't know his plans, it is difficult to serve the divorce papers. But for now I will just wait and see if he really does fly on Sunday and then try to trick him into being somewhere the sheriff can find him by agreeing to bring the kids to him if he asks (although, because I am so concerned that he might snatch them, be violent or threatening as he has been before, I will not actually take them to him, I will just go with the sheriff).

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 08:56 AM
My mum is coming to visit for two weeks tomorrow. I think WH still cares about his image to my family so her visit might incentivise him to pretend he is not holding OC hostage in another country.....but he is crazy at the moment, so it's pretty difficult to predict anything about his thought processes or behaviour.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I will see if there is some way to file for an emergency parental rights and responsibilities order the moment OC gets here, so that I will effectively be a third parent and my consent (along with his two biological parents) would be required for him to leave the country again.

I am no expert but this feels wrong. Aren't you looking to adopt OC? My sense is that making you a 'third parent' might be going in the wrong direction. Mediators often look for the easiest solution rather than the one that is best over the long term.

Hi Living Well, this was just the quickest thing I could do to prevent WH from leaving the country with OC without my consent. There is an anti-human-trafficking law that requires any adult travelling with a child to have the written consent of all parents and guardians and travel with the child's original birth certificate. OC's mum is named as a second respondent in my divorce application and I am claiming custody and the right to adopt (which she already consented to in 2014, but it was not completed due to jurisdictional issues). I am also claiming additional child support from her, since she has never contributed a penny to his upbringing.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
This is your Achilles heel isn't it? Of course he will use OC to manipulate the situation. He has no shame and does not care. As time goes on he will get angrier and angrier.

Yup. frown
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 11:05 AM
Can you have your IM check his flight details and inform you if things change?

Is he still in the room with OC during when you are skyping?

Is there a reason you read the mails and didn't ask your IM to read them and inform you only if there's any relevant information in it?

I bet you don't eat arsenic because it's toxic. Why read the messages?
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 11:15 AM
I know it is difficult not to give in to curiosity or the idea of control, it is kind of addictive. Just want to urge you to protect yourself.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Can you have your IM check his flight details and inform you if things change?

Is he still in the room with OC during when you are skyping?

Is there a reason you read the mails and didn't ask your IM to read them and inform you only if there's any relevant information in it?

I bet you don't eat arsenic because it's toxic. Why read the messages?

Thanks Goody2Shoes. That's a good idea actually. I will pass the details on to her. I think she does struggle slightly with identifying what is relevant or not. I think it is a common problem. Now that I am used to all the rubbish he spouts, I can easily see that his professions of desire to reconcile, apologies, expressions of love, wanting his family, threats, manipulations, blah blah blah are all nonsense. But to other people who haven't got used to looking at the gulf between his words and actions, are easily convinced the rubbish means something.

Yes, he still starts the skype calls with OC sitting there on his lap and then after 5 mins or so moves just off camera, but he can hear everything and sometimes interjects. His treatment of the kids - which yesterday was angry and insulting - also affects our family dynamic because I have to deal with the fallout. I find it very difficult to move on with my life properly with this daily ritual, even if there is no other contact. He inserts himself into the family by force.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by goody2shoes
I know it is difficult not to give in to curiosity or the idea of control, it is kind of addictive. Just want to urge you to protect yourself.

I think I have got to the point where I am not curious. Nothing he writes is worth reading. It doesn't mean anything. The only thing he is interested in is not paying the school fees for the kids, so he will say and do anything he can think of (including depriving his own child of his family) just to avoid having to pay. It is just better for all of us if I totally step away from this situation and ignore him while lawyers work it out.

There is this limbo feeling this week just because he hasn't been served yet - and that makes him think I don't actually want to divorce him and, therefore, that his manipulation stands a chance of working because I must be emotionally invested.

It's mildly frustrating that I have not managed to dent his enormous ego at all in this process, and he still clearly believes there is no way I actually don't want him (because he is the most desirable person on the planet, obviously), but I can put up with the frustration for a little while if it gives me the element of surprise to arrange for the service.

He's still sitting there in his new country shouting to everyone that will listen that I am refusing to be a wife, that he wants his family next to him and it is ME who is refusing, and that this entire separation is my plan to destroy the kids' future. Sometimes I struggle to keep a grasp on reality with all this gaslighting.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
this was just the quickest thing I could do to prevent WH from leaving the country with OC without my consent. There is an anti-human-trafficking law that requires any adult travelling with a child to have the written consent of all parents and guardians and travel with the child's original birth certificate.

Humm not sure I would rely on that. Wasn't WH able to cross a border that he was not supposed to be able to cross not long ago? But there is not a high risk that he would kidnap OC. If there was, he would not be willingly bringing him back. Single father rearing his illegitimate child? Somehow that does not fit the image.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
OC's mum is named as a second respondent in my divorce application and I am claiming custody and the right to adopt (which she already consented to in 2014, but it was not completed due to jurisdictional issues). I am also claiming additional child support from her, since she has never contributed a penny to his upbringing.


That is a good idea. Once the adoption is completed, she will no longer be liable for OC's child support so great incentive for her to sign the paperwork.



Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My mum is coming to visit for two weeks tomorrow. I think WH still cares about his image to my family so her visit might incentivise him to pretend he is not holding OC hostage in another country.....but he is crazy at the moment, so it's pretty difficult to predict anything about his thought processes or behaviour.


Fabulous, God bless Mums eh?

Usually there is logic behind apparent craziness. I'm worried that WH is mucking the OC dates around because he suspects you might hit him with a divorce action. It was a big mistake to tip your hand there. Can you afford to have a process server be on call for the whole day when he arrives?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The moment the sheriff serves WH with divorce papers, I will switch to a new phone number and close the only email he can get through to me on. Then it is really proper plan B.
You continue to not be in Plan B, but Plan C (which is not a plan). When will you truly get into Plan b? You keep coming back and spiralling from what your WH does and doesn't do.

When are you going to get into a true Plan B?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 02:48 PM
Have you read this and listened to the radio clips? BSs Plan C is not a Plan
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The moment the sheriff serves WH with divorce papers, I will switch to a new phone number and close the only email he can get through to me on. Then it is really proper plan B.
You continue to not be in Plan B, but Plan C (which is not a plan). When will you truly get into Plan b? You keep coming back and spiralling from what your WH does and doesn't do.

When are you going to get into a true Plan B?

Hi Brain Hurts, I know. I think realistically, I will be in proper plan B once the divorce papers have been served - because then I will be able to close all plan B holes with no problem. There is the complicated process of trying to work out when WH will arrive in the country so that I can arrange for the service, and the uncertainty about whether or not he will bring OC. The flight is still currently booked for Sunday. So hopefully that is the day.

I have just been screamed at for 30 mins by MIL, who seems to have just spoken to WH and has done a 180 on me after his manipulation. Apparently I have ruined his life. Who knew?! She is screaming at me because he is apparently upset and nervous. Amazing how no one stops to think what I have been feeling like for the past 10 years. But the moment WH is "nervous" then we must all run around like headless chickens trying to salve his poor delicate soul.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you read this and listened to the radio clips? BSs Plan C is not a Plan

I will now!
Posted By: goody2shoes Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I have just been screamed at for 30 mins by MIL,
Maybe next time... you politely tell you need to go to the bathroom/dinner is burning/smell gas/battery is empty/phone service is bad/you have an appointment with the dentist and cannot stay on the phone. Or just hang up. You are way too smart to volunteer for abuse.

Or better, don't answer the phone, unless you like 30 mins of screaming. Do you?

There are no holes in your Plan B, your Plan B is a big giant hole.

WHY??? *boinks head against wall*
Posted By: thndrnltng Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 10:42 PM
If I were in Chalk's place, and if I were determined to get my child back, I would be farless concerned about an air-tight Plan B and FULLY focused on having him returned, when the potential date if his return is less than a week away. (Not that I'd count on the reliability of his sperm donor to keep his word...) Even if her husband shows up with the child this weekend, I don't see any way for Chalk to get him without getting him in person. This is not a man she can expect to fork over his last bargaining chip to someone claiming to represent Chalk, who has been sent to get him in her place. So there IS no air-tight Plan B while this weekend and the possible transfer is hanging over her head.

Let me recommend that you ask Dr. Harley for advice about this directly. He made the plan. Surely he has the most complete understanding of how it should be implemented. Hoping that all goes well for you this weekend...

tl
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 10:52 PM
She already wrote Dr. Harley.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I recieved a reply from Dr Harley. Here is what he says:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Hi Chalkncheese,

I've had so much experience with situations like yours, and their ultimate outcome, that I have generally advised wives in your situation to avoid bringing the child of their husband's affair into the marriage (see my article, "What to do with a child of an affair"). The main reason is that very few women can put up with the mother of that child, her husband's lover, being a part of the family. As you put it, your mental health is at stake.

There is, however, one possible way that you can keep the child and your sanity all at the same time: Divorce your husband. While that may seem like a peculiar idea at first, I think that you'll find that once you have your husband completely out of your life with no hope of reconciliation, your relationship with the child's mother could actually be much improved, and the two of you could work together on deciding what would be the best for that child.

The other alternative is to send the child back to his mother, encouraging him to accept her as his own. If you ever would reconcile with your husband, I doubt very seriously that you could continue to raise that child with the other woman's constant interference. And I can't imagine that the other woman would ever want to abandon her own child.

If you have not already done so, you should also read my article, "What to do with a serial cheater." The chances that your husband will never have another affair is very remote, even if he were to come back to you, hat in hand, expressing great remorse. While I have examples of those who have been successful, they represent just a handful of the hundreds of cases I've witnessed where the cheating husband cheats throughout his life, leaving behind many women whose lives have been greatly damaged.

Dr. Harley
Posted By: thndrnltng Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/15/17 11:41 PM
The focus of that question is not the same as mine,, which would be specifically targeted towards the next few days.

tl
Posted By: My4Loves Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/16/17 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
She already wrote Dr. Harley.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I recieved a reply from Dr Harley. Here is what he says:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Hi Chalkncheese,

I've had so much experience with situations like yours, and their ultimate outcome, that I have generally advised wives in your situation to avoid bringing the child of their husband's affair into the marriage (see my article, "What to do with a child of an affair"). The main reason is that very few women can put up with the mother of that child, her husband's lover, being a part of the family. As you put it, your mental health is at stake.

There is, however, one possible way that you can keep the child and your sanity all at the same time: Divorce your husband. While that may seem like a peculiar idea at first, I think that you'll find that once you have your husband completely out of your life with no hope of reconciliation, your relationship with the child's mother could actually be much improved, and the two of you could work together on deciding what would be the best for that child.

The other alternative is to send the child back to his mother, encouraging him to accept her as his own. If you ever would reconcile with your husband, I doubt very seriously that you could continue to raise that child with the other woman's constant interference. And I can't imagine that the other woman would ever want to abandon her own child.

If you have not already done so, you should also read my article, "What to do with a serial cheater." The chances that your husband will never have another affair is very remote, even if he were to come back to you, hat in hand, expressing great remorse. While I have examples of those who have been successful, they represent just a handful of the hundreds of cases I've witnessed where the cheating husband cheats throughout his life, leaving behind many women whose lives have been greatly damaged.

Dr. Harley

This is why I love Dr. Harley ... he has so much experience in helping women recover themselves. A healthy mama is always the best choice ... children need healthy mamas.
Posted By: happyheart Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/17/17 07:20 AM
I know a case where a woman faked reconciliation to avoid the so-called father of the children sabotaging her getting custody in court. Right after the hearing and verdict she told him to get lost.

You know you will do better in Plan B mentally, but you are understandably worried about OC. I agree with thrtysomething, that there will probably be breaches in your Plan B during his visit because of the situation with him being served. I even think you should talk with the children about how to behave should he try to hop on a plane with them.

He is fully aware that your heart is where the children are. And what would be better leverage than 1 child? 4 children.
If you can arrange Bodyguards, so can he. You mal want to have him followed additionally to the (corrupt?) Sheriff when he is with the children.

I hope you can preserve some sanity. The only thing to say to his mother is, that you are sorry that his affairs are causing everyone including himself so much pain and that you will talk later after both of you have calmed down. Blood is thicker than water so don't count on her too much.

Be brave, you have to take care of yourself and the children. Try to avoid this Kind of poisonous contact, even if you don't succeed in going full plan B at the moment.

Posted By: thndrnltng Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/20/17 12:44 AM
Thinking about you and hoping things go well for your and your children.

tl
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/21/17 07:17 AM
Originally Posted by thndrnltng
Thinking about you and hoping things go well for your and your children.

tl

Thanks TL. Sorry I have been a bit quiet for a couple of days. I have been working on a plan.....

I now have an intervention team! Two lawyers, one social worker, and the sheriff all working with me on the goal of getting OC back with me. And we will involve the police, airline, and immigration officials as and when necessary. We have a multistage plan with back-up options. The goal is to get WH (and OC) to this country by any means possible (plan already implemented and seems to be working) and, once he is here with OC, the rest of the plan will be put into action. I don't want to say too much about anything right now, but will provide a full update of everything that has happened on Monday next week (when it should be over if everything works out....).

The sad thing is WH thinks he is leveraging OC to get what he wants out of the situation. But he is going to end up with absolutely nothing and no unsupervised access to the children because of his behaviour.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/21/17 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by happyheart
I know a case where a woman faked reconciliation to avoid the so-called father of the children sabotaging her getting custody in court. Right after the hearing and verdict she told him to get lost.

You know you will do better in Plan B mentally, but you are understandably worried about OC. I agree with thrtysomething, that there will probably be breaches in your Plan B during his visit because of the situation with him being served. I even think you should talk with the children about how to behave should he try to hop on a plane with them.

He is fully aware that your heart is where the children are. And what would be better leverage than 1 child? 4 children.
If you can arrange Bodyguards, so can he. You mal want to have him followed additionally to the (corrupt?) Sheriff when he is with the children.

I hope you can preserve some sanity. The only thing to say to his mother is, that you are sorry that his affairs are causing everyone including himself so much pain and that you will talk later after both of you have calmed down. Blood is thicker than water so don't count on her too much.

Be brave, you have to take care of yourself and the children. Try to avoid this Kind of poisonous contact, even if you don't succeed in going full plan B at the moment.

Thanks HappyHeart. Yes, we have had to become sneaky and strategic in order to make things happen. What works hugely in my favour is being resident in a country with one of the most progressive constitutions in the world that places huge importance on children's rights. I will update more next Monday.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/21/17 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My mum is coming to visit for two weeks tomorrow. I think WH still cares about his image to my family so her visit might incentivise him to pretend he is not holding OC hostage in another country.....but he is crazy at the moment, so it's pretty difficult to predict anything about his thought processes or behaviour.


Fabulous, God bless Mums eh?

Usually there is logic behind apparent craziness. I'm worried that WH is mucking the OC dates around because he suspects you might hit him with a divorce action. It was a big mistake to tip your hand there. Can you afford to have a process server be on call for the whole day when he arrives?

Hi Living Well, I've been thinking about whether WH is avoiding divorce service. And I really don't think that is true. I think he is focusing on withholding OC from me because 1) he thinks that will give him leverage to force me not to divorce him and 2) he thinks that if he keeps one child then even if I manage to maintain the other two in the American International School, he can at least save money on OC's school fees.

What he doesn't seem to have understood is that his actions of retaining OC away from his family has actually given me far more power than I had initially to get full custody of all of them, argue for no unsupervised access, and extend the restraining order to the kids (both at home and at school) as well as me. I am getting all the legal documents in order this week, so by the time he arrives next Sunday (and we have concocted a plan to make SURE he arrives this time), it will all be in place.

I think the service (of the big pile of court documents) might need to be done by the police rather than the sheriff because I am really worried about WH's reaction.

Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/21/17 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
What he doesn't seem to have understood is that his actions of retaining OC away from his family has actually given me far more power than I had initially to get full custody of all of them, argue for no unsupervised access, and extend the restraining order to the kids (both at home and at school) as well as me. I am getting all the legal documents in order this week, so by the time he arrives next Sunday (and we have concocted a plan to make SURE he arrives this time), it will all be in place.

I think the service (of the big pile of court documents) might need to be done by the police rather than the sheriff because I am really worried about WH's reaction.


You are one awesome individual. This may be tough but it is going to work out really well in the end.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/22/17 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
What he doesn't seem to have understood is that his actions of retaining OC away from his family has actually given me far more power than I had initially to get full custody of all of them, argue for no unsupervised access, and extend the restraining order to the kids (both at home and at school) as well as me. I am getting all the legal documents in order this week, so by the time he arrives next Sunday (and we have concocted a plan to make SURE he arrives this time), it will all be in place.

I think the service (of the big pile of court documents) might need to be done by the police rather than the sheriff because I am really worried about WH's reaction.


You are one awesome individual. This may be tough but it is going to work out really well in the end.

Thanks Living Well. Yes, I have a feeling it is going to work out really well somehow.

Just got an email from WH asking for me to write a letter sponsoring his spouse visa renewal. Immediately after two other emails telling me everything is my fault, that I am stopping the children growing up together, and he doesn't trust me to see OC so he won't bring him to my house. Oh the irony! rotflmao
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/22/17 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Just got an email from WH asking for me to write a letter sponsoring his spouse visa renewal. Immediately after two other emails telling me everything is my fault, that I am stopping the children growing up together, and he doesn't trust me to see OC so he won't bring him to my house. Oh the irony! rotflmao


The only response is no response.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/27/17 10:14 PM
I've got OC back! laugh Going to court tomorrow....
Posted By: thndrnltng Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/28/17 12:26 AM
hurray hurray

tl
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/28/17 01:28 AM
That's wonderful news! I'm SO happy for you!!! hurray
Posted By: JanetS Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/28/17 02:49 AM
Wonderful news. I've been waiting to hear this. Hopefully the court will do what is in the best interest of your dear son.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/28/17 11:31 AM
Awesome!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/29/17 07:26 AM
So here is how it happened:

When WH changed the flight for the third time, I contacted our social worker/mediator who had been helping us with our parenting plan to ask her to put me in touch with a child lawyer friend of hers she had mentioned in her previous session.

I met up with this child lawyer and we put together a plan to get OC back and simultaneously get the legal protection to ensure that WH will not take any of them again.

The plan was to entice WH to come to this country by me offering to renegotiate my position on the choice of the kids� school (he really doesn�t want the kids to go to the American International School because it is EXTREMELY expensive), involving the social worker in the plan so that he would be convinced it was a legitimate offer and, by getting him to directly contact the social worker to set up a specific appointment to put this agreement in writing, we would have a specific time and place, chosen by him, to serve papers on him.

We had a back-up plan to get OC back through Interpol and my husband�s employer (which fortunately has an office in this country), but in the end we didn�t need it.

Initially, as before, WH refused to reveal the specific time and date of the flight but because I had managed to use the flight reservation number on the original ticket to add my contact details to the airline�s ticketing database, I got the notification when he paid for the ticket to be reissued with the final changes. He noticed that I was cc�d on the reissue of the ticket, but was not able to make any further changes to the flight because he�d already paid.

WH seemed to be suspicious that I was going to have another restraining order (the previous one was valid in another jurisdiction) served on him at the airport when he landed, and in advance of him flying on Sunday he asked for my promise that I would not have police waiting for him at the airport � which of course I was able to give.

On Saturday, the day before WH was due to fly, I asked that OC come and spend two nights at home with me and the other kids so that he could see my mum before she was due to fly home to the UK, suggesting that I bring all the kids to the social worker appointment on Tuesday and hand them over to WH so he could spend a few days with them. WH agreed to the plan but said he wanted my word that I would give OC back again. I said yes�..that was my only direct lie.

So we made an arrangement that I would come with all the kids and my mum to the airport to meet WH and OC off the plane, and then I would take OC home from there. In the end, the handover was extremely calm. WH and OC arrived, OC was ecstatic to see us all, WH spent 10 mins or so giving the other kids gifts, showering affection on them, and telling them what fun stuff they were going to be doing on Tuesday. Then I just said: we�re leaving now. The kids said their goodbyes to WH, and we left. And just like that I had OC back.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/29/17 07:45 AM
Simultaneously with the plan to get physical custody of OC, I was also working on the legal preparations to make sure that 1) I had the right to keep him, 2) to get WH to pay for the school fees he has been refusing to pay; 3) to protect the children so that WH cannot take any of them again; and 4) to serve the divorce papers.

There were jurisdictional issues while WH and OC were out of the country, but the moment they stepped into the arrivals at the airport, the courts here had jurisdiction. We arranged for an urgent application for parental rights to be written over the weekend, and filed with the court first thing on Monday morning. The application included everything to do with the money (bypassing the very slow and inefficient maintenance application process), how unreliable WH has been with maintenance and medical insurance, the history of violence, and all the evidence about how bonded OC is to me and his siblings, and made a request that WH hands over OC�s passport and is only allowed to see the kids in this country and that he cannot take them out of the borders of the province we live in.

We were able to justify an urgent application on the grounds that WH has lied so much about his travel arrangements and changed the tickets, and that we don�t know how long he will stay in the country.

I signed the papers at 11:30am and they were ready for service by 2pm. We initially tried to serve WH in person, but it turns out he had lied about where he would be staying (surprise surprise) and the guest house he said he was staying at had never heard of him. That turned out to be another stroke of luck though because it enabled my lawyer to get permission for service by email � and she was able to also serve the divorce summons by email at the same time (despite the fact my other lawyer had not been able to do that).

The papers were sent to him at 2:34pm. I got one angry sms from him at 4pm saying �So this was your plan all along? To steal OC? You will not mess up his life� and four missed calls from MIL which I ignored.

I got a notification at around 6pm that WH had made an appointment in his email calendar (he seems to have forgotten that I have access to that) for a meeting with a lawyer at 10:30am today. [The lawyer he has chosen is the first result on google if you search for "lawyer" and "place we live" - apparently they are "specialists" in commercial law, family law, property law, and everything else under the sun rotflmao] He has a deadline to respond to the papers by Thursday this week and we will then be in court on Tuesday next week, which is the day WH is supposed to fly out.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/29/17 07:50 AM
So now I have all the kids at home and have been advised not to let them out of our secure estate while WH is still here. He knows the address of their school, so I am anxious about him turning up there, so I've kept the kids at home yesterday and today.

When I have got the protection order, I will send them all back to school and give the school all the documentation so they can alert their security guards to keep WH away.

The situation now is cautiously optimistic. It seems like all the key battles are done, but we can only really relax once next Tuesday's court date is done and WH has left the country. Until then, I am looking over my shoulder all the time.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/29/17 07:53 AM
And now i can really do plan B!! I am going to the phone shop to change my number at lunchtime and I will now delete my email account that WH has been able to get through on. I have set up a new Skype account for the kids so that WH can still speak to them (at least from next week - I'm worried about what he will say to them in anger this week), but i won't be involved at all.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/29/17 09:51 AM
What you have done is just amazing. I'm so glad that you were able to turn his behaviour to your advantage. He will never allow himself to see that but it does not matter in the least. Presume you will not be sponsoring his spousal visa?
Posted By: Woundednotbroken Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/29/17 01:36 PM
WAY TO GO!!!! You are incredible!! Praying for you, your dear children (including OC) and the quick resolution of this matter!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/30/17 06:40 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
What you have done is just amazing. I'm so glad that you were able to turn his behaviour to your advantage. He will never allow himself to see that but it does not matter in the least. Presume you will not be sponsoring his spousal visa?

Thanks Living Well! I have not responded to the visa sponsor request - and think I will leave it at that for now. I don't want to say no outright and then have that as evidence of my "personal vendetta" against WH, which is the story he tells everyone.

After he spoke to his lawyer (who seems to be a con artist that saw WH coming a mile off) yesterday morning, and heard that it will cost him USD6000 (how?!?!) just to respond to the urgent application I filed on Monday, he wants to mediate. So we have an appointment with our social worker this afternoon for 3 hours.

I don't want mediation because I have all the cards in my hand, but I don't mind because I know it will just provide an opportunity for WH to dig himself into a bigger hole. We had a quick meeting with her yesterday lunchtime and WH already set the tone for the discussion by his answer to her first question:

Social worker - "What do you really think is in the best interests of OC?"
WH - "To live with his brothers....."
Social worker - "Riiiiight. So you think the same thing as Chalk then?"
WH - "Yes, but she will not keep him because both me and his biological mother are alive. And we are congolese, and he is congolese, and Chalk is not. No court will give custody to her".
Social worker - "Riiiiighhht. Well, the law is not always how we think it is. How about we discuss this tomorrow?"

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/30/17 06:43 AM
Originally Posted by Woundednotbroken
WAY TO GO!!!! You are incredible!! Praying for you, your dear children (including OC) and the quick resolution of this matter!

Thank you WNB! It's not over yet by a long way, but this is definitely a really positive move forward. I will relax a bit next week after the court date for parental rights for OC has passed, and WH is a bit more aware that the law doesn't let him do whatever he wants - which is what he currently believes.

He takes entitlement to a whole new level. It is astounding to hear him talk!!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/30/17 07:46 PM
Mediation is incredibly stressful with a pathological liar. Maybe it is stressful anyway. It is exhausting to have to stop and highlight every untruth and request that the discussion is halted before he can provide evidence. WH thinks he is in a court room, objecting and withdrawing things all over the place.

I can't see how mediation can possibly be helpful in this type of situation where one person has done nothing and the other person has destroyed the marriage and family. It just beats down the BS. The WS doesn't care because they've got nothing to lose and all to gain - and mediation provides them with a chance of convincing the BS to waive their legal rights. I really hate the way everyone seems to assume that there is hurt and pain on both sides of a divorcing couple, and that somehow you are both equally to blame and both equally guilty of letting your emotions run riot. Mediation seems to create a false dichotomy. You can't find a middle ground if one party is right and the other is wrong. Because the middle won't be any more right than the wrong-headed notions the WS use to get to it.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/30/17 07:48 PM
Anyway, I am really really glad I know what the law says about my position and can't be pressured into things I know aren't right. But I'm really sure many other people get totally beaten by this process, by the scare stories of court, and by the fear of ruinous expense.
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/30/17 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Anyway, I am really really glad I know what the law says about my position and can't be pressured into things I know aren't right. But I'm really sure many other people get totally beaten by this process, by the scare stories of court, and by the fear of ruinous expense.

Hang in there, chalk, you will get through this, I'm certain. Your situation has been fraught with more peril than most, certainly more than mine. My own WW hasn't pulled 1/10th of the cr*p that your WH has, and I still get incredible anxiety when I see her at school functions or she sends me email. The amount of strength and resilience you've shown throughout this stressful ordeal is inspiring, and we're all here pulling for you! clap

I totally understand about listening to the wayward lies in mediation (or in court), and it's frustrating that their lies are given equal credence to the truth. grumble
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/31/17 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by abrrba
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Anyway, I am really really glad I know what the law says about my position and can't be pressured into things I know aren't right. But I'm really sure many other people get totally beaten by this process, by the scare stories of court, and by the fear of ruinous expense.

Hang in there, chalk, you will get through this, I'm certain. Your situation has been fraught with more peril than most, certainly more than mine. My own WW hasn't pulled 1/10th of the cr*p that your WH has, and I still get incredible anxiety when I see her at school functions or she sends me email. The amount of strength and resilience you've shown throughout this stressful ordeal is inspiring, and we're all here pulling for you! clap

I totally understand about listening to the wayward lies in mediation (or in court), and it's frustrating that their lies are given equal credence to the truth. grumble

Thanks a lot Abrrba. I guess it is good to be reminded how stressful direct contact with WSs is because it reinforces my conviction to get him totally out of my life!!

He has asked his lawyer to demand that I am psychologically evaluated for my fitness to look after the children because he says I cannot keep on saying that contact with him is too stressful for me.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/31/17 07:27 AM
I do wonder if my view of how the world works has been totally wrong all these years. It seems as though liars have the world as their oyster, and people who are honest and trustworthy get manipulated, abused and taken advantage of the whole time.

Is the whole concept of integrity and truth just something the liars cooked up to keep us honest people in our place while they do as they please?!

I am feeling really disillusioned with human beings right now. If I have to lie or even tell a half truth, I genuinely feel bad. The feeling makes me want to correct the mistake, so that i can feel calm that everything is right again. I don't like the feeling of not being 100% honest. But maybe I only became like that after 10 years of being with a compulsive liar.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/31/17 10:53 AM
Just back from the second mediation session. Mediation has officially failed. Phew.

The sticking point seems to be that WH will go to extreme lengths to avoid doing anything that he perceives to have been dictated by me. Eg, he will not share his actual income, because that would be giving in to my request for supporting documentation to justify his opposition to maintenance. He will not provide any evidence to back up anything he says ever, because he does not believe that I have the right to enforce that he only says stuff that is true (or that, for the purposes of the mediation discussion, we only deal in verifiable facts not random vague untrue statements). He will not agree to seeing the kids at a specific time, because, even if HE sets the time and place, he perceives that I am preventing his free access to the kids by making him specify a time and place. The result is that he is prepared to never see the children at all, and fight in court about everything, rather than do what he thinks is "submitting" to me.

He also made clear that his reason for taking OC was so that he could use him to manage his relationship with the other kids. He thinks if OC lives with him, then I will have less "power" to prevent him from seeing the other kids (which I am not doing anyway) because I would also be preventing OC from seeing his brothers.

I have always maintained all along that I want WH to see his children (well, i did before he stole one of them....now I am less keen), but i want there to be a specific arrangement, agreed in advance, that is stuck to by both of us. WH has failed to stick to any arrangements ever causing significant stress for me and disruption to mine and the kids' lives.

Really really disgusted with WH right now.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 08/31/17 12:49 PM
One suggestion for you based on my own experience with a spookily similar person is to go for assets rather than income as a source of maintenance support. For example, can you get 100% of the rental house? If the income from that will yield enough to cover your support, that will give you a cleaner break.

Otherwise you will spend the next 18 years in a court room trying to collect as he is going to jerk your chain at very chance he can. It is almost impossible to imagine the lengths they will go to when angry and the anger gets worse as the years pass and they realise what they lost.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/01/17 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
One suggestion for you based on my own experience with a spookily similar person is to go for assets rather than income as a source of maintenance support. For example, can you get 100% of the rental house? If the income from that will yield enough to cover your support, that will give you a cleaner break.

Otherwise you will spend the next 18 years in a court room trying to collect as he is going to jerk your chain at very chance he can.

Thanks Living Well. I do really appreciate your perspective because of the similarities. I can get 100% of the house, but it isn't worth very much in comparison to income from his huge salary. Where i live now, we have the right to request a garnishment order which requires his employer to pay me the court ordered amount directly from payroll if he doesn't pay what he is supposed to within 10 days. Luckily, his employer has an office in my country, so we can serve the papers there and the reciprocal agreement between this country and the US would mean they have to enforce it even though the country he actually lives in does not have a reputation for enforcing laws.

He could get around that garnishment order by leaving his job, and working for another organisation that doesn't have an office here, but with the position he is in now, he would not be able to get another job on anything like the same salary. He would be looking at a 50% pay cut or more - and I can't see him making that decision (not just loss of money, loss of status - and since moving back to his home country he is no longer an expat able to argue for high salaries, he is a local, one among millions of highly qualified people looking for work). There also the issue that his country is rapidly descending into all out civil war, so I don't think it is a fantastic time to be suddenly unemployed and looking for work building the capacity of the health sector.....

Originally Posted by living_well
It is almost impossible to imagine the lengths they will go to when angry and the anger gets worse as the years pass and they realise what they lost.

Yup. I am surprised every day and what this anger does. I had a call from the police last night. He tried to open a case against me for child abduction. I don't think he was successful because I explained to the police that the child in question had been brought into our marital home 3 years ago through a legally formalised agreement, and that the issue was current under consideration by the high court. But I am a bit anxious that they will call me to come to the police station this morning.

However, thanks to the past 6 months' experience, I am not afraid of these things any more. The police can get involved if they want. But I know the law is on my side - and the processes are already in place to sort it out.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/04/17 07:41 AM
WH flew out of the country on Saturday night without telling anyone. I got a email notification from the airline database that he had changed his flight ticket (he never did work out that the airline database had my contacts).

In the week that he was here, he made no effort to contact the kids at all - no skype, no calls, no visits. He shouted and screamed at the mediator that I was preventing him from having access to the children, but then refused all offers of arrangements for him to meet them. Bizarre.

He called the kids' school to ask for an urgent meeting on Friday, the day before he left. The principal called me and we all attended the meeting together. I thought he was going to demand that all the children leave the school, but instead he just repeated his request that the two eldest move up a grade - which the principal politely declined. He also wanted to make clear that he has no intention of paying any fees. However, since it was me that signed the contract with the school, that really isn't any of their concern as long as I pay the bills when they are due.

I suspect he thinks by leaving the country he is escaping the court date and financial obligations that will result from a judgement against him. My lawyer cautioned that he might just run away and never contact the kids again. So we will wait and see what happens.

His lawyers are supposed to respond to our urgent application for parental rights for OC tomorrow, and be in court on Sept 12th. We will see whether he has given them instructions to proceed soon....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/04/17 07:54 AM
WH asked again for me to write the letter sponsoring his spouse visa and give him copies of the kids' birth certificates. I said "where is the maintenance money? where is our health insurance?"
Posted By: JanetS Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/04/17 06:01 PM
IF he does just "run away" never to see the children again, would it be favourable for you to go back home to the UK where you have a support system?

He is burning all of his bridges.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/05/17 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by JanetS
IF he does just "run away" never to see the children again, would it be favourable for you to go back home to the UK where you have a support system?

He is burning all of his bridges.

Hi Janet, I have thought about it but I don't really have a support system in the UK. There is just my mum and my sister, who live 300 miles apart. I honestly could not have coped with what life has brought over the past 8 years or so, since marriage and children, without living in a country where I can afford to pay someone to live with us, look after the children, do our washing and clean the house. I do not know how my sister manages in the UK with two kids....and I have four. There's also the work issue. Could I continue to work full time in the UK, with all the commuting into London (where all the jobs are) and out, while raising four happy well-adjusted kids? I'm not sure I could.

So I guess I am prepared to sacrifice the cultural familiarity of the UK for a foreign country where raising kids as a single working mum is easier.

There's also the problem that, in the country where I live, I am not allowed to take the children across the border without my husband's written permission (formal affidavit with police stamp completed within the past 3 months) - and he still has OC's passport. We are going to be limited to travelling within this country until all the divorce and other court stuff is resolved.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/05/17 09:13 AM
WH sent maintenance money today - phew! Albeit without the school fees portion and without sorting out medical insurance.

He did not answer the kids' skype calls last night. He hasn't spoken to them since last Saturday, although it seems not to bother them at all. I guess that is my hang-up rather than theirs and I should leave him to destroy his relationships with his children if he wants.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/05/17 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
WH sent maintenance money today - phew! Albeit without the school fees portion and without sorting out medical insurance.

Predictable

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He did not answer the kids' skype calls last night. He hasn't spoken to them since last Saturday, although it seems not to bother them at all. I guess that is my hang-up rather than theirs and I should leave him to destroy his relationships with his children if he wants.


yup yup yup
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/05/17 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
WH sent maintenance money today - phew! Albeit without the school fees portion and without sorting out medical insurance.

Predictable

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He did not answer the kids' skype calls last night. He hasn't spoken to them since last Saturday, although it seems not to bother them at all. I guess that is my hang-up rather than theirs and I should leave him to destroy his relationships with his children if he wants.


yup yup yup

laugh Thanks Living Well. I am starting to get the hang of this....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/05/17 02:43 PM
I just read all about narcissism. Wow, what an eye opener! I know now what I am dealing with in WH. He seems to be an extreme case.
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/05/17 04:04 PM
Just want to confirm that you are documenting all of this? The times he chooses not to see the kids even while in the same country, or answer their calls, etc?
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/05/17 06:31 PM
So when will you be going into Plan B?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/06/17 03:49 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
Just want to confirm that you are documenting all of this? The times he chooses not to see the kids even while in the same country, or answer their calls, etc?

Hi Unwritten, yes, documenting everything - and have been since I threw him out in Feb. It has been invaluable to have all these records of what has happened all the way though, especially with all the legal stuff I have been dealing with.

I suspect that, after being served with the divorce papers and urgent application in relation to OC, he is now attempting to run away and start a new life. If he does not contact the children for three months, it will constitute parental abandonment.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/06/17 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
So when will you be going into Plan B?

I am in plan B now! No contact with WH or any of his family and friends, changed phone numbers again, changed email, only communication through lawyers - and WH's lawyers just sent a notice of withdrawal as attorneys of record so now it seems like he is actively hiding. He's left the country, his visa expires at the end of this month, and he doesn't know where I live, so there's very little chance of him turning up unexpectedly.

I have my new life here, going out with some other mums from the kids' school tonight, other social activities planned for next week and the week after, happy with work, kids enjoying their new school and activities, etc.

I have been telling the kids to click "call" on skype at 7:30 every evening, but since he hasn't picked up at all since last week, I won't do that anymore.

I do spend a little time thinking about legal strategies and scenarios to get money from WH and ensure that I will have the right to travel across borders with OC at some point - but I think it will all work out OK, even if it takes some time. Is that breaking plan B? Or is it the research about narcissim that is the problem (that was just yesterday)?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/06/17 11:50 AM
I feel really crushingly depressed today. So that must mean I am really in Plan B - it is a feeling I recognise from when I first threw WH out and did manage a few weeks of zero contact, with my IM arranging and implementing his outings with the kids.

I just can't believe that there is anyone in the world who would choose not to see or talk to children as lovely as I think mine are - let alone their father!! They are so much fun, so beautiful, so interesting, and so loving. I feel as though the dynamics of affairs are much easier to understand. It hurts if he wants other women rather than me, but I understand it. But to run away from your children?! To not have an unquenchable thirst to rush home and see what your baby daughter has learnt to do while you were at work?! Not to be desperate to hear school stories from three little boys who are just testing the waters of friendships and trying to make each other laugh?! Not to see their smiles and bask in their innocent affection?! Not to be the one to answer their questions, explain things to them, shape their knowledge and personalities. How????

Is it really that the relationships between mothers and their children are so different to those of fathers?


Posted By: amac Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/06/17 09:28 PM
Aw Chalk I feel for you. I have those same thoughts daily. I used to think of WH as one of the most involved fathers I knew. And now he has missed most of my sons first year of life, forgot my daughters birthday which has said even recently is the happiest day of his life, and literally sees them 5% of the time. It just goes to show how WS's are truly addicts, nothing else matters besides their addiction. I know I struggle with letting go, but overall my self esteem has not been damaged much by WH's actions because I know he loves his kids and his parents but is treating them with the same disregard that he is treating me. Its not about us, the kids, or anyone else but themselves.

And this is not unique to fathers. My WH is in an affair with a married woman with 2 kids under 2, one that she is trying to adopt that she has had since birth that if her BH ever gets the balls to divorce her, she will lose. All for my loser WH who is already cheating on her! I could never understand a mother doing the things she is doing, but yet its happening.

I keep telling myself, if this is who WH truly is, then I dont want him. If this lack of interest in your kids continues from your WH, then you dont want him either. Its going to be a journey to get to that point but thats the reality.
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/07/17 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Is it really that the relationships between mothers and their children are so different to those of fathers?

I can't speak for all fathers, of course, but I too share that unquenchable thirst to spend as much time with my children as possible. I wasn't the type (like WW) to want to sign them up for tons of after-school activities and spend countless hours driving back and forth to practices and such. (I couldn't really, given my work schedule)

But whether at home or at a relative's, in the backyard or at a park, I've always wanted to spend as much time with my kids as possible. This could be playing catch with DS, discussing politics with DD1 (which she loves), or watching an old movie with DD2. (she loves Audrey Hepburn, Julie Andrews, Jimmy Stewart, etc.)

Since WW moved out, I only have the kids a week at a time now, and I'll tell you...the last two days before I get them back for a week are VERY rough on me. I try to keep busy with home projects, spend time with my father, etc., but it's not the same when the kids aren't in the house with me. The kids came home this evening after a week away, and I've been in heaven. I cooked a big dinner for us and we had great dinner-table conversation; spent 30 minutes talking to DD1 about a new "friend" that she met at work. He's 19 to her 17, so I'm a bit concerned TEEF but I do trust her a lot; DS is excited about taking web programming at school and I spent an hour teaching him HTML; DD2 and I spent an hour together listening to music and teaching her a few chords on the guitar. Interspersed with all this is conversation, lots of conversation: about their first week of school, our plans to fly to Florida for my brother's wedding in November, and everything under the sun.

I can't imagine not wanting to spend time with my kids, or not taking the opportunity to talk to them as much as possible. I'm sorry chalk & amac that your kids have to suffer through having an absent father. Of course, as long as they remain wayward they'll be lousy parents, so there is a positive aspect to their absence. Yet, every child deserves to have two loving parents in their lives, and I'm sorry that this has happened to them.

My WW continues to spend a lot of time with my children, so at least she's not absent. In fact, she's overdoing it by being overly demanding of their time, which at 17 years old risks pushing them away from annoyance. Her continuing waywardness is a terrible example to them, so though at least she's in their lives, I'm worried how this will affect their future relationships.

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/07/17 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by amac
Aw Chalk I feel for you. I have those same thoughts daily. I used to think of WH as one of the most involved fathers I knew. And now he has missed most of my sons first year of life, forgot my daughters birthday which has said even recently is the happiest day of his life, and literally sees them 5% of the time. It just goes to show how WS's are truly addicts, nothing else matters besides their addiction. I know I struggle with letting go, but overall my self esteem has not been damaged much by WH's actions because I know he loves his kids and his parents but is treating them with the same disregard that he is treating me. Its not about us, the kids, or anyone else but themselves.

And this is not unique to fathers. My WH is in an affair with a married woman with 2 kids under 2, one that she is trying to adopt that she has had since birth that if her BH ever gets the balls to divorce her, she will lose. All for my loser WH who is already cheating on her! I could never understand a mother doing the things she is doing, but yet its happening.

I keep telling myself, if this is who WH truly is, then I dont want him. If this lack of interest in your kids continues from your WH, then you dont want him either. Its going to be a journey to get to that point but thats the reality.

Thanks amac. It really helps knowing that someone else is going through the same stuff. And you are totally right: this is the real evidence that affairs are an addiction just like drugs or alcohol. My father was an alcoholic who drank himself to death by age 56, despite all the (obviously useless) efforts of my mum, my sister and I to try to shake him out of it over many years. I didn't speak to him for 5 years between the ages of 17 and 22, but that didn't have any impact at all apart from giving him more excuses to feel sorry for himself.

I guess I have to start thinking of my husband in that kind of way. He will only change if he hits rock bottom. But as a normal, sane person, you have no idea how low an addict can go without hitting the bottom and waking-up to what they have done. The problem is, because they are not actually drunk or drugged, it is so easy to forget that waywards are totally crazy and then accept their meaningless words as being the same kind of words the rest of us use.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/07/17 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by abrrba
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Is it really that the relationships between mothers and their children are so different to those of fathers?

I can't speak for all fathers, of course, but I too share that unquenchable thirst to spend as much time with my children as possible. I wasn't the type (like WW) to want to sign them up for tons of after-school activities and spend countless hours driving back and forth to practices and such. (I couldn't really, given my work schedule)

But whether at home or at a relative's, in the backyard or at a park, I've always wanted to spend as much time with my kids as possible. This could be playing catch with DS, discussing politics with DD1 (which she loves), or watching an old movie with DD2. (she loves Audrey Hepburn, Julie Andrews, Jimmy Stewart, etc.)

Since WW moved out, I only have the kids a week at a time now, and I'll tell you...the last two days before I get them back for a week are VERY rough on me. I try to keep busy with home projects, spend time with my father, etc., but it's not the same when the kids aren't in the house with me. The kids came home this evening after a week away, and I've been in heaven. I cooked a big dinner for us and we had great dinner-table conversation; spent 30 minutes talking to DD1 about a new "friend" that she met at work. He's 19 to her 17, so I'm a bit concerned TEEF but I do trust her a lot; DS is excited about taking web programming at school and I spent an hour teaching him HTML; DD2 and I spent an hour together listening to music and teaching her a few chords on the guitar. Interspersed with all this is conversation, lots of conversation: about their first week of school, our plans to fly to Florida for my brother's wedding in November, and everything under the sun.

I can't imagine not wanting to spend time with my kids, or not taking the opportunity to talk to them as much as possible. I'm sorry chalk & amac that your kids have to suffer through having an absent father. Of course, as long as they remain wayward they'll be lousy parents, so there is a positive aspect to their absence. Yet, every child deserves to have two loving parents in their lives, and I'm sorry that this has happened to them.

My WW continues to spend a lot of time with my children, so at least she's not absent. In fact, she's overdoing it by being overly demanding of their time, which at 17 years old risks pushing them away from annoyance. Her continuing waywardness is a terrible example to them, so though at least she's in their lives, I'm worried how this will affect their future relationships.

Hi Abrrba, I am so sorry for insensitively tarring all fathers with the wayward brush!! And I really feel your pain of not being able to share daily life with your kids anymore, as a result of your wife's decisions. Your love for them is so clear in the way you describe them, and your kids will be able to see the truth of what has happened over time. I'm so sorry.
Posted By: abrrba Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/07/17 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hi Abrrba, I am so sorry for insensitively tarring all fathers with the wayward brush!! And I really feel your pain of not being able to share daily life with your kids anymore, as a result of your wife's decisions. Your love for them is so clear in the way you describe them, and your kids will be able to see the truth of what has happened over time. I'm so sorry.

Not to worry, Chalk, I didn't take offense! smile
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/07/17 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I just can't believe that there is anyone in the world who would choose not to see or talk to children as lovely as I think mine are - let alone their father!! They are so much fun, so beautiful, so interesting, and so loving. I feel as though the dynamics of affairs are much easier to understand. It hurts if he wants other women rather than me, but I understand it. But to run away from your children?! To not have an unquenchable thirst to rush home and see what your baby daughter has learnt to do while you were at work?! Not to be desperate to hear school stories from three little boys who are just testing the waters of friendships and trying to make each other laugh?! Not to see their smiles and bask in their innocent affection?! Not to be the one to answer their questions, explain things to them, shape their knowledge and personalities. How????

Is it really that the relationships between mothers and their children are so different to those of fathers?

I can relate to your feelings - my ex WH has virtually no relationship with our DD 21 and has done things that are repulsive regarding both of the kids since the time of our separation and continues through today (truly I could write a novel).

It's not a mother-child thing. It's a wayward thing. (More on this to come.) Try not to waste too much energy understanding it. There really is no understanding a wayward except to know that they are entitled, dishonest and selfish.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/07/17 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He will only change if he hits rock bottom. But as a normal, sane person, you have no idea how low an addict can go without hitting the bottom and waking-up to what they have done.

I don't want to take away all of your hope but I don't necessarily agree that a serial cheating wayward can change if he "hits rock bottom."

Let me explain.

A serial cheater isn't in the same "addiction fog" that a garden variety cheater is - you take away the OP and the fog clears. No. What they are addicted to is attention from the OS. (I talked to Dr Harley personally about this on the radio show one time) It is a HUGE part of their personality. Their ability to attract OS attention is a skill set...they're GOOD at it and it makes them FEEL GOOD to do it.

Dr Harley: It's going to be a real trick getting him to give that up.

How do you get them to give it up? And get them away from their drug? It's literally taking them out of the path of being able to get attention from the OS.

And in the case of my ex WH, the more difficult things got for him - the more he seems to retreat into his entitled, woe is me, victim mentality. I don't think that's an uncommon thing for serial cheaters.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/07/17 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
And in the case of my ex WH, the more difficult things got for him - the more he seems to retreat into his entitled, woe is me, victim mentality. I don't think that's an uncommon thing for serial cheaters.


Same here, mine is in breach of contract for failing to divide the marital assets. Somehow that has become my fault. He has convinced himself that I have hidden the assets that he took offshore. You cannot make this stuff up.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/08/17 06:21 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He will only change if he hits rock bottom. But as a normal, sane person, you have no idea how low an addict can go without hitting the bottom and waking-up to what they have done.

I don't want to take away all of your hope but I don't necessarily agree that a serial cheating wayward can change if he "hits rock bottom."

Let me explain.

A serial cheater isn't in the same "addiction fog" that a garden variety cheater is - you take away the OP and the fog clears. No. What they are addicted to is attention from the OS. (I talked to Dr Harley personally about this on the radio show one time) It is a HUGE part of their personality. Their ability to attract OS attention is a skill set...they're GOOD at it and it makes them FEEL GOOD to do it.

Dr Harley: It's going to be a real trick getting him to give that up.

How do you get them to give it up? And get them away from their drug? It's literally taking them out of the path of being able to get attention from the OS.

And in the case of my ex WH, the more difficult things got for him - the more he seems to retreat into his entitled, woe is me, victim mentality. I don't think that's an uncommon thing for serial cheaters.

Thanks SuzieQ. This REALLY hits home for me. When you say it so succinctly like that, it really makes me see how small the chances of any change are. Why would he change? And how could he anyway? Even if he decided at some particular low point that he really wanted his marriage and family, to the exclusion of all other women, in order to keep us he would have to keep on making that decision a thousand times every day for the rest of his life. And if his entire adult life has been devoted to honing these women-attracting skills, and implementing them brings him so much reward on a daily basis, that would mean a decision to not do what he really wanted to do a thousand times every day.

I definitely can't say no to chocolate with that kind of conviction, even though I really really want to be 5kgs lighter wink.

I also recognise the victim mentality that both you and Living Well cite. It is fascinating to see how he can twist absolutely everything to be an attack by me on him - even when it was he and his girlfriend dragging me into courts, bringing police to my house, and both of them assaulting and threatening me. Somehow that was still me attacking him. And this repetitive refrain he has now adopted that him not having seen the kids since June (apart from 10 mins at the airport last week) is due to me preventing him from having access - not the fact that he hasn't lifted a finger to book a trip or make a plan.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/08/17 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
I don't want to take away all of your hope....

It's not as though I have loads of "hope" that there is going to be a happy ending where our family is all back together. I don't really think about it like that. But I guess I don't yet feel as though the story is quite finished. I don't think he has yet had a chance to feel the effects of what has happened, and I am curious to know how it will affect him. I have learnt so much about human beings during this whole process, and I haven't finished learning.

But I am in a safe place now and happy that the divorce and other legal stuff is proceeding. So what happens with him will not change the fact that the kids and I have a really nice new life without him - and lots to look forward to.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/08/17 06:28 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by SusieQ
And in the case of my ex WH, the more difficult things got for him - the more he seems to retreat into his entitled, woe is me, victim mentality. I don't think that's an uncommon thing for serial cheaters.


Same here, mine is in breach of contract for failing to divide the marital assets. Somehow that has become my fault. He has convinced himself that I have hidden the assets that he took offshore. You cannot make this stuff up.

Hi Living Well, I also get totally gobsmacked with each new fantasy WH creates. I have come to expect it, but it is still amazing to observe it in action. Are you still going through courts now?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/08/17 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
What they are addicted to is attention from the OS. (I talked to Dr Harley personally about this on the radio show one time)
Dr Harley: It's going to be a real trick getting him to give that up.

Is anyone able to find this radio show that SuzieQ mentions? I would like to add the link to the serial cheaters thread.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/08/17 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Are you still going through courts now?


Yes, unfortunately I am. We were in court yesterday. But the noose is tightening. He expatriated from the US in 2013 on an Irish passport (that he got through me) to abscond with the marital assets that were in his name. Then he discovered that the money he took offshore and put into a trust was not accessible by him either so he has a little cash flow problem. :-)

Moral of the story; when divorcing a serial adulterer, assets are far better than income.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/08/17 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Are you still going through courts now?


Yes, unfortunately I am. We were in court yesterday. But the noose is tightening. He expatriated from the US in 2013 on an Irish passport (that he got through me) to abscond with the marital assets that were in his name. Then he discovered that the money he took offshore and put into a trust was not accessible by him either so he has a little cash flow problem. :-)

Moral of the story; when divorcing a serial adulterer, assets are far better than income.

Wow. This gives me a lot to think about!!! I am really happy to hear that you might be making progress though!

Since my WH seems to think he can avoid any consequences by pretending the urgent application against him (and divorce summons) do not exist, and that if he stays in his own country and doesn't contact us he can pretend he has disappeared, I should be able to get a default judgement against him on Tuesday and then a garnishment order 10 days later (assuming he doesn't pay).

The good thing about the urgent application is that it requests immediate payment of two lump sums (one for medical insurance and one for 50% of school fees), in addition to all the legal stuff about guardianship and residency for OC, and that will be a significant amount over and above the regular portion of his income, which he can evade by leaving his current job.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/08/17 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I should be able to get a default judgement against him on Tuesday and then a garnishment order 10 days later (assuming he doesn't pay).

He won't. Payment would be an admission on his part that he created this mess.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The good thing about the urgent application is that it requests immediate payment of two lump sums (one for medical insurance and one for 50% of school fees), in addition to all the legal stuff about guardianship and residency for OC, and that will be a significant amount over and above the regular portion of his income, which he can evade by leaving his current job.


My XWH colluded with his employer to use an obviously forged signature of mine to take marital assets that were in my name. They also agreed to pay him through a Delaware LLP.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/09/17 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by SusieQ
What they are addicted to is attention from the OS. (I talked to Dr Harley personally about this on the radio show one time)
Dr Harley: It's going to be a real trick getting him to give that up.

Is anyone able to find this radio show that SuzieQ mentions? I would like to add the link to the serial cheaters thread.
I believe it's already there.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 06:43 AM
I was in court yesterday and was granted full parental rights and responsibilities for OC! Hurrah!

WH and OC's mum both have rights to reasonable contact, but they must come to where we live (country not our home) to visit him, arrange visits with me in writing a month in advance, and neither of them are allowed to take him out of this country.

I was also given custody of all the other children with WH having to arrange in writing in advance to see them.

Unfortunately, the judge disputed the urgency of the money stuff, so we will have to make another application to sort that out. But it is still a great achievement, especially now that I have a court order requiring WH to make proper arrangements which will prevent him messing around with time so much. Phew!

And at least now that he has to make written arrangements and provide proof of where he is staying before seeing the kids, I will now always have a way to physically serve him with additional court papers since I will know the address he will be staying at in advance.....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 06:46 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I should be able to get a default judgement against him on Tuesday and then a garnishment order 10 days later (assuming he doesn't pay).

He won't. Payment would be an admission on his part that he created this mess.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The good thing about the urgent application is that it requests immediate payment of two lump sums (one for medical insurance and one for 50% of school fees), in addition to all the legal stuff about guardianship and residency for OC, and that will be a significant amount over and above the regular portion of his income, which he can evade by leaving his current job.


My XWH colluded with his employer to use an obviously forged signature of mine to take marital assets that were in my name. They also agreed to pay him through a Delaware LLP.

Thanks Living Well. When I hear your experience, i start to really worry about all the things my WH could do - but it seems like mine is really not the criminal mastermind type. He has totally missed so many opportunities to win against me. Even yesterday, he had the opportunity to dispute the court's jurisdiction over OC since he is not from this country and neither of his biological parents are, but instead he just kept his head in the sand and ignored the fact that the court hearing was happening. So I got the default judgement against him and now he doesn't even have the possibility of appealing that decision.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by SusieQ
What they are addicted to is attention from the OS. (I talked to Dr Harley personally about this on the radio show one time)
Dr Harley: It's going to be a real trick getting him to give that up.

Is anyone able to find this radio show that SuzieQ mentions? I would like to add the link to the serial cheaters thread.
I believe it's already there.

Thanks SusieQ! I will listen to them again. I find that as I move forward in this journey, I become ready to understand truths that I wasn't able to accept earlier on. It is a process of revelation and understanding about the way serial cheaters are and what I am really dealing with.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 10:03 AM
I am just working through all the likely consequences of WH and OC's biological mum being served with this court order in my mind - I hadn't really thought about it before now because I was just focused on making sure OC was safe and secure.

But, in my situation, where exposure of the actual affair did not shame WH in the way it might have done because of the cultural acceptance of infidelity in this region (although it definitely had an impact at work), exposure of his loss of control of all of the children - especially in front of OC's mother - is going to be hugely humiliating. I assume OC's mum will work like crazy to spread the news far and wide, especially among his older male relatives (who were involved in negotiating the arrangements for OC's move to us 3 years ago) and she will be raging against WH's failure to be "the man" and inability to control the situation with me.

I have the impression that in my husband's country children are considered as "assets", representing future income and financial security for parents in their old age, as well as a source of status and pride. I have a totally different view of children (which I assume is shared by people where i am from), more as treasures that I want to love, protect and nurture so that they can achieve happiness in their own lives - and that their happiness is my reward. So while, for me, the loss of custody of a child would be very emotionally painful, there is no shame attached. However, I know that WH will feel the loss as an assault on what it means to be a man and the "head" of the family.

I am really glad I live 4000 miles away in a safe place because he is going to be MAD - and the fallout will probably continue for a while.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am just working through all the likely consequences of WH and OC's biological mum being served with this court order in my mind - I hadn't really thought about it before now because I was just focused on making sure OC was safe and secure.

So pleased you have OC. Will you be able to adopt him eventually? Presume the rest of your children have British passports. To get that his adoption needs to be legal in the UK too. You will need advice when that time comes.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
exposure of his loss of control of all of the children - especially in front of OC's mother - is going to be hugely humiliating. I assume OC's mum will work like crazy to spread the news far and wide, especially among his older male relatives (who were involved in negotiating the arrangements for OC's move to us 3 years ago) and she will be raging against WH's failure to be "the man" and inability to control the situation with me.

Had you thought about contacting OC's birth mother? Perhaps explain to her that he was a no show at the hearing. That will hopefully prevent your WH from spinning a story of you kidnapping the children. Her support for your position will be super helpful.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I am just working through all the likely consequences of WH and OC's biological mum being served with this court order in my mind - I hadn't really thought about it before now because I was just focused on making sure OC was safe and secure.

So pleased you have OC. Will you be able to adopt him eventually? Presume the rest of your children have British passports. To get that his adoption needs to be legal in the UK too. You will need advice when that time comes.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
exposure of his loss of control of all of the children - especially in front of OC's mother - is going to be hugely humiliating. I assume OC's mum will work like crazy to spread the news far and wide, especially among his older male relatives (who were involved in negotiating the arrangements for OC's move to us 3 years ago) and she will be raging against WH's failure to be "the man" and inability to control the situation with me.

Had you thought about contacting OC's birth mother? Perhaps explain to her that he was a no show at the hearing. That will hopefully prevent your WH from spinning a story of you kidnapping the children. Her support for your position will be super helpful.

Thanks Living Well. Yes, I want to proceed with adoption now that I have parental rights - but it is on the back burner while the divorce proceeds. It was important to get parental rights in the country where we are living because the UK will recognise rulings here, whereas they wouldn't recognise rulings in my husband's country. I have looked into the rules for UK recognition of foreign adoption a bit, and it seems as though if it goes through here, which is a Hague Convention country, he would be entitled to British citizenship by descent as for my other two children who were born outside the UK. The first one was born in the UK so is automatically a citizen. But yes, i will get specific advice when the time comes.

OC's mum is a second respondent on the court order and on the divorce papers. The judge ruled yesterday that all the documents must be translated into her language and sent to her by email, facebook and physically delivered to her address. I didn't contact her in advance because I thought there was very little chance of me being able to persuade her of anything that my husband couldn't immediately counter, given that he is now living in the same city as her, and we (her and I) have not had a relationship at all before now. I've met her a couple of times and we have had some terse exchanges over money and her putting photos of OC on her facebook page and making them public, which I feel is an infringement of OC's privacy.

The urgent application and founding affidavit for the court order spell out exactly what has happened, list all my husband's terrible behaviours, and explain that he has left OC with me and run away from this country - so no matter what story he gives her, it should be clear to anyone who reads the papers what he has done. He could tell her it is all lies and that I am an evil white woman who has stolen all his children. But even him saying these things about me does not change the facts of the matter - and does not make him look any better/more manly if he is admitting that I was able to outsmart him. And both he and she will still have to make written arrangements with me to see the children, which I will not refuse, and i know she will see over time that I have provided OC with a loving and secure environment to grow up in and that he is a happy and successful child. I would not expect to be able to argue against a cultural belief that fathers have ultimate rights over the children, which is the accepted view in their country. I am 100% confident (and luckily the courts here agree) that it is in all the children's best interests to be together and to be with me, here, and to have citizenship for a country that is not in perpetual civil war.

I think I will have to invest in establishing a relationship with her when the dust settles so that OC has the opportunity to build a relationship with her when he wants to and when he is ready. So if she contacts me (which she is free to do - she has my contact details), I will reassure her that I will support OC to establish and maintain his relationship with her directly, but at this stage I will not reach out to her myself outside of the legal processes.
Posted By: JanetS Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 12:40 PM
Amazing update. Life is falling into place as it should, and you can now let a lot of the stress fall behind you. I cannot imagine the worry you had when OC (really, he is DS) was with his father and not a happy camper.

I was concerned when he kept DS away from you. Even though legally you had rights, sometimes the courts rulings do not make sense. They truly put your son's best interests first.

The children are clearly in good hands with you as their Mommy.

Janet
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 06:05 PM
I am so happy to hear about OC! Congratulations on the win!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 09:58 PM
Fantastic news.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 11:47 PM
You're a star, chalk!
Posted By: Lin63 Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/13/17 11:59 PM
This is an amazing process. You are so strong! An inspiration to all.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/14/17 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Had you thought about contacting OC's birth mother? Perhaps explain to her that he was a no show at the hearing. That will hopefully prevent your WH from spinning a story of you kidnapping the children. Her support for your position will be super helpful.

Hi Living Well, I've been thinking about this suggestion all night and have decided that I will send OC's birth mother an email. It can't hurt (at least not any more that her recieving a court order out of the blue), and might help, so why not? Thank you so much for continuing to help me along with this process. Your experiences of serial cheating, court cases and adoption are so relevant and valuable. Thank you!!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/14/17 06:47 AM
Thanks JanetS, Unwritten, BrainHurts, SugarCane and Lin! I don't know what I would have done without this forum. The advice has made sure that I don't get bogged down in the emotional fallout and just focus on putting one foot in front of the other over and over again to do what needs to be done. Then suddenly I find myself able to look up and realise that I have just coped with the worst thing that ever happened. I would not have had a clue about where to start with a plan without MB. Thank you so much for all your support and guidance. I have been (and still am) totally dependent on reading this forum every day to keep me sane and give me hope for the future - even though that probably means being a single mum of four.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/14/17 11:10 AM
Sometimes, like just now, I get totally consumed by thoughts of how WH looks at himself in the mirror in the mornings and how does he sleep knowing who he is deep down inside.

I feel so disturbed and stressed if really small aspects of my life are not going well, or if I think I might have damaged a relationship with a colleague or friend unintentionally or if someone might think I have lied when I haven't. How do people who lie habitually cope with that kind of stress? Do they just get used to ignoring it? Do they even feel bad about anything? Do they really not feel the urge to be good to people at all? Or do they focus on those immediate, transient (and easy) interactions with strangers to make themselves feel that they are good people?

I just can't imagine someone who actively wants to be a terrible person like my WH seems to want to be, while at the same time making such a big deal of his devotion to God (something that has ALWAYS puzzled me).
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/14/17 03:34 PM
Men can compartmentalise much better than women. Stop over-thinking this. Go and do something totally frivolous just because :-)
Posted By: amac Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/14/17 09:47 PM
I find myself thinking the same thing, Chalk. I seriously dont know how WH lives with himself. If I did the things he has done I think I would be suicidal.

I think it is like explained in SAA. WS's do have moments where they see themselves for what they are and are horrified by it, but the addiction is so strong it pulls them back. I do think my WH has alot of those moments and I have realized it just puts him in a deeper hole because his affair is with a married woman so I'm sure they soothe each other by saying "we aren't bad people." In one of my two Plan B break conversations with WH he was crying and kept saying "I'm not a bad person I'm not a bad person." I said you weren't, but you are now in this affair.

You are so right about them focusing on transient small things to make themselves feel better. During the affair my WH started going to church again and stopped drinking alcohol. A big signal to me that something was going on with him was when he drove 2 hours to visit his grandmother in the hospital after she had a minor surgery when he hadnt seen her in 3 years and hardly spoken to her. Afterwards, his whole family texted saying what a great guy he was for taking the time to do that. Now I realize all of these things were his attempts to feel better about himself.

I dont know at one point (if ever) that any amount of shame or disgust they feel about themselves motivates them to change. I actually think that after a certain point the shame is all consuming and sucks any strength from them to change.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/15/17 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by amac
I find myself thinking the same thing, Chalk. I seriously dont know how WH lives with himself. If I did the things he has done I think I would be suicidal.

I think it is like explained in SAA. WS's do have moments where they see themselves for what they are and are horrified by it, but the addiction is so strong it pulls them back. I do think my WH has alot of those moments and I have realized it just puts him in a deeper hole because his affair is with a married woman so I'm sure they soothe each other by saying "we aren't bad people." In one of my two Plan B break conversations with WH he was crying and kept saying "I'm not a bad person I'm not a bad person." I said you weren't, but you are now in this affair.

You are so right about them focusing on transient small things to make themselves feel better. During the affair my WH started going to church again and stopped drinking alcohol. A big signal to me that something was going on with him was when he drove 2 hours to visit his grandmother in the hospital after she had a minor surgery when he hadnt seen her in 3 years and hardly spoken to her. Afterwards, his whole family texted saying what a great guy he was for taking the time to do that. Now I realize all of these things were his attempts to feel better about himself.

I dont know at one point (if ever) that any amount of shame or disgust they feel about themselves motivates them to change. I actually think that after a certain point the shame is all consuming and sucks any strength from them to change.

Hi Amac, it is really reassuring to know you are thinking the same things. It's almost funny to hear what your WH is doing in an effort to make himself feel better about his choices! I think mine has been living this life for so long, he doesn't feel bad at all - just angry that I have the cheek to try to stop his fun.

I guess they might want to change eventually if something really bad happens that means they are suddenly no longer able to keep their heads in the sand, or the "fun" somehow gets less fun (i'm thinking an HIV diagnosis? multiple pregnant OWs? unemployment?). But there is a difference between changing the way they interact with other people in future and being brave enough to go back to the family you betrayed and do the work to fix it. I'm not sure how many cheaters (or other addicts) ever work up the courage to face the people they hurt the most. But it can't be very many.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/15/17 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Men can compartmentalise much better than women. Stop over-thinking this. Go and do something totally frivolous just because :-)

Thanks LivingWell. Yeah, I guess you are right. And he has been like this for years. It is only new for me. Just booked a spa day with a friend from work smile
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/19/17 06:55 AM
I guess I really am in Plan B properly if I don't have anything to update my thread with!

Work, home and kids all doing fine. WH has started calling the kids every evening on Skype again, so I put my laptop in their room so I don't have to hear the calls. I started going to the gym and focusing on trying to get enough sleep to resolve my infidelity-related eye bags smile. The only slight stressor at the moment is the unresolved maintenance issue. But I feel confident we will get it sorted out in the next couple of months. All in all, feeling positive and happy.

WH has a deadline of Friday to hand over OC's passport to my lawyer, but I am 100% confident he will not do it. We then have to wait until October 12 to find out if he will contest the court order over custody and visitation of the children. But I suspect he won't respond to that either. Response would mean paying a lawyer and since guarding his money (so that he can throw it around in front of OWs and impress them) is the most important thing in the world to him, I can't see him forking out for something as non-fun as a lawyer. He seems convinced that if he keeps his head down and stays in his own country, the justice system of this country can't touch him. That's not true, but it is helpful to me if he thinks that. So I am continuing in this legal stuff unopposed, which makes things a bit easier.

Posted By: amac Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/19/17 07:27 PM
I've read on other threads how we Plan Ber's tend to get silent when Plan B is going well - but I think its reassuring to hear when its going well for others, so thanks for posting smile

I'm glad for your kids sake that WH has resumed the skype calls.

What has to happen for your divorce to be final?
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/20/17 06:35 AM
Originally Posted by amac
I've read on other threads how we Plan Ber's tend to get silent when Plan B is going well - but I think its reassuring to hear when its going well for others, so thanks for posting smile

I'm glad for your kids sake that WH has resumed the skype calls.

What has to happen for your divorce to be final?

Hi amac, yeah, I've been surprised how quickly plan B has made me feel calm and happy. I was really down for the first week or so, but feel fine now.

I think the divorce is going to take YEARS. But that's OK because there are some legal options to get interim maintenance sorted out, and since I have all the family assets, I am in no rush to get to the point where they have to be divided. WH is currently hiding in the false belief that the law of this country does not apply to him, so he can save himself hefty legal fees by just ignoring everything that is served on him. I think if he continues to ignore all of my lawyer's efforts to contact him for more than a year then the court will grant me a divorce without his participation - which would also mean he forfeits his right to half of the assets anyway. Anyway, as long as I get an interim maintenance order (which I am going to court for on Oct 3), and a subsequent garnishment order forcing his employer to pay me before they pay him (standard debt collection practice here), then it won't matter to me whether the divorce is actually concluded or not.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/22/17 06:49 AM
I have heard back from OC's mum after i contacted her. She didn't have a clue about anything that had happened, so WH has obviously not been sharing information (despite getting his lawyer to write to mine claiming that BOTH OC's biological parents were against his continued residence with me). She doesn't seem to understand anything at all and seems more concerned with the fact that I sent the translation of the court documents to both her and her twin sister (because she hadn't read the message two days after I sent it), than anything about OC. She has not asked any questions about him, where we are living or how he is and has not asked to speak to him.

In anticipation of the possibility of renewing regular contact with her, I talked to OC about how he would feel about speaking to her on the phone a couple of times a week. He burst into inconsolable tears saying he doesn't want to speak to her and doesn't want to be different to his brothers. He doesn't want to have two mums. He just wants one mum. I have contacted our social worker to advise me on how to act in his best interests for the future and ensure that I don't damage his emotional security by forcing him to confront his "difference" when he is still so small - and also avoiding creating a situation where it seems like I am obstructing contact from his biological mum. I feel a bit overwhelmed at the challenge of all of this. I just want to do what is best for him.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/22/17 01:58 PM
Have you written Dr. Harley to ask about OC? He has so much experience dealing with OC situations that you should contact him.
Posted By: Candy_Crusher Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/22/17 02:51 PM
I am no expert on this field, but feel your heartache for OC and being overwhelmed at this big challenge. Hugs
Posted By: unwritten Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/22/17 03:17 PM
My suggestion is that if OC's bio mom does not show interest in him, or ask to speak to him, and he clearly shows no interest in her right now (which is odd and slightly disturbing since he just spent some time with her...), I would just let it be.

It is not your job to facilitate a relationship between them, you have been MORE than generous with how you have handled this whole situation with OC and if I were you I would take OC and fade into the shadows right now.

In my unexpert child psychology opinion, it seems best for OC to be in the place where he feels safe and loved, which is with you and his siblings and without influence from his bio mom or dad who seem to not really care that much about him anyway frown
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/27/17 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you written Dr. Harley to ask about OC? He has so much experience dealing with OC situations that you should contact him.

Hi BrainHurts, yes I did write to Dr Harley about this issue. He advised me to divorce my husband (check!), and then he thought I might be able to establish a good relationship with OC's mum with my husband out of the way. But I think that advice was contingent on OC's mum exhibiting and responding to normal maternal instincts, which I now suspect is not the case.

I am having a consultation with a social worker next week to get her opinion on how I should act in OC's best interests, but I think after that, as Unwritten suggests, I should just leave it at that and get on with raising my kids alone.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/27/17 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by unwritten
My suggestion is that if OC's bio mom does not show interest in him, or ask to speak to him, and he clearly shows no interest in her right now (which is odd and slightly disturbing since he just spent some time with her...), I would just let it be.

It is not your job to facilitate a relationship between them, you have been MORE than generous with how you have handled this whole situation with OC and if I were you I would take OC and fade into the shadows right now.

In my unexpert child psychology opinion, it seems best for OC to be in the place where he feels safe and loved, which is with you and his siblings and without influence from his bio mom or dad who seem to not really care that much about him anyway frown

Hi Unwritten, thank you for this. I also can't understand her behaviour at all and can't understand what might be driving it. Anyway, I think you are right. Let me just get on with raising my kids as happy, confident and secure individuals. I won't keep secrets from them. But they will all know that they have a place where they belong, they are loved, and at least one parent who is willing to fight for them no matter what.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/27/17 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by Candy_Crusher
I am no expert on this field, but feel your heartache for OC and being overwhelmed at this big challenge. Hugs

Thanks Candy. Yeah, it is tough thinking that the decisions and actions you take now can influence your children's happiness and success in life many years later. Scary!
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/27/17 11:41 AM
WH has not responded to the court papers again (urgent application for money pending finalisation of divorce - which could take 3 years), so I will now be in court unopposed on Tuesday. It is so bizarre. He must really believe the law of this country does not apply to him.

I have been preparing myself for a long, drawn out and nasty legal battle, so it is really confusing to face no opposition at all. But I guess it is good for me, so I will try to not spend too much time focusing on the weirdness of the whole situation.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/27/17 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you written Dr. Harley to ask about OC? He has so much experience dealing with OC situations that you should contact him.

Hi BrainHurts, yes I did write to Dr Harley about this issue. He advised me to divorce my husband (check!), and then he thought I might be able to establish a good relationship with OC's mum with my husband out of the way. But I think that advice was contingent on OC's mum exhibiting and responding to normal maternal instincts, which I now suspect is not the case.

I am having a consultation with a social worker next week to get her opinion on how I should act in OC's best interests, but I think after that, as Unwritten suggests, I should just leave it at that and get on with raising my kids alone.
I agree that I think you should just raise the kids and not involve her.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/27/17 08:09 PM
I am starting to feel like my entire marriage was a figment of my imagination. I cannot grasp one single memory of genuine affection, care, or authentic love from my husband. All the memories of major events - moving countries, pregnancies, births of the children, job changes, even "our" wedding ceremony - are all notable for the total absence of real participation from my husband. Sometimes he was there, mostly he wasn't. But even if he was physically present, he didn't seem to be present in spirit. Stuck in his own reality and life course, without sharing anything properly with those around him. This is such a bizarre process I am going through now. I feel like I am waking up from a dream. I was married to a ghost. None of us, not me, nor any of the kids, even the dog, seem to have anything concrete to "miss" about him. There is ZERO emotional fallout from his leaving. It is as if his presence in our lives for the past decade left no footprint at all - apart from the last few months where he made his anger at being thrown out so clear to everyone. And now he is totally gone. It's so weird.

I guess the evidence of four beautiful children shows it really wasn't my imagination, but, if they weren't there, I would seriously be questionning my grasp on reality. Is this the after-effect of a decade of manipulation and gas-lighting? Or the confusion that goes with ending a relationship with an extreme narcissist? Or am I just really emotionally detached?

I think it might be because he didn't provide any of us with authentic love or connection. And I think we all now see there is nothing to miss when that pretence is no longer there because 100% of the real love, the kind that builds emotional security and strong bonds, is still here because it has always come only from me.
Posted By: amac Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 09/29/17 07:16 PM
I too I'm surprised that there is no gaping hole in my life or my children's without WH. I first noticed it when he moved out. Even with all of his things gone, it didn't look like someone had left. It was like he was never here. It was also strange to me that my daughter hardly talks about him, and never once asked where he went or called out for him in the mornings when she wakes up like she used to.

I think we need to be careful though, just as WH rewrite our history to justify their actions, with what we are going through I don't know that we can trust our view of the past either. Its hard to believe that there are people that are truly incapable of authentic love and care for another, but I guess psychologists would say they exist. Your WH could be one, but I doubt it.

At the beginning I was so desperate to save my marriage because I truly believed that my children needed both a mother and father in their lives to get the emotional security that you are talking about. But like you, I am seeing that I alone can provide that for them, and have all along. I don't think that means their fathers didn't contribute something, but as one of my friends said to me, it is better for our kids to have 100% of us, then the small percentage they get from their fathers minus what the wayward father takes from us.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/09/17 09:16 AM
A little update. I have seen a social worker about OC and she has recommended a child psychologist. She thinks he is probably experiencing quite significant feelings of rejection by both biological parents - and his enthusiasm for me is a clear sign of that. So I will take all the kids along and just make sure they all feel emotionally secure and know that I will never leave them, regardless of what other people do.

Legal stuff is progressing. WH still not responding to anything. I was in court last Tuesday and the judge said we should give WH one final chance to respond and explain why he hasn't responded to anything up to now, and make clear to him that failure to respond, and failure to do what the court order says he should, will be contempt of court. His deadline is Friday this week to respond to the court order about OC guardianship and explain why he hasn't handed over his passport.

Then I will be back in court on Tuesday next week for maintenance stuff. Not paying court-ordered maintenance is a criminal offence. I cannot comprehend what WH is doing to himself. He is from one of the least developed and most unstable countries in the world, and is now in the process of getting himself into legal trouble that will prevent him from being able to get visas for any developed country - including the US where his employer is based. He doesn't cross my mind that often anymore, but sometimes I just think "why?!?!?!?!"

I learned from the children that WH has been telling them it is my fault he can't visit them because I haven't sent him copies of their birth certificates so he can apply for a visa. It is true I have not sent him the documents so he can't apply for a RELATIVE'S permit (i don't want him to have the children's birth certificates because I am nervous about him getting them passports for his country and finding a way to take them across the border), but he has other family members and friends in this country, so could easily get an invitation letter from someone else and apply for a normal visitor visa. I have told the children that what he has told them is not true. But I feel like I am engaged in a constant battle to enforce the real reality. It feels like the same gaslighting I was living with for years. The children have also been telling him they want him to come home and they want him to break up with his girlfriend. But he responds to them with extreme anger. Should I tell them not to say things like that to him? I don't tell them what to say or what not to say, but I don't want them to be hurt by his anger.

He wants them to think that we have split up because of some "complicated adult problems" - but that is so untrue and morally confusing. However, I feel uncomfortable countering what he says because it is very difficult to not seem like I am insulting him. At least they go to Sunday school and have been learning about sin and the armour of God, so my lessons to them are not just like a "he says, she says" thing. But it is tough.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/09/17 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
A little update. I have seen a social worker about OC and she has recommended a child psychologist. She thinks he is probably experiencing quite significant feelings of rejection by both biological parents

Makes sense, OC may miss his father even more than the others do. You might also want to make sure he knows that his birth mother gave him up because she loves him. That was a very important thing for me to hold onto as a child. My birth mother could not keep me. Of course when I met my birth parents I found that the reality was a little more complex than that.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Then I will be back in court on Tuesday next week for maintenance stuff. Not paying court-ordered maintenance is a criminal offence. I cannot comprehend what WH is doing to himself. He is from one of the least developed and most unstable countries in the world, and is now in the process of getting himself into legal trouble that will prevent him from being able to get visas for any developed country - including the US where his employer is based. He doesn't cross my mind that often anymore, but sometimes I just think "why?!?!?!?!"

You do realise that the visa problems will be all your fault too don't you? lol

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I learned from the children that WH has been telling them it is my fault he can't visit them because I haven't sent him copies of their birth certificates so he can apply for a visa. It is true I have not sent him the documents so he can't apply for a RELATIVE'S permit (i don't want him to have the children's birth certificates because I am nervous about him getting them passports for his country and finding a way to take them across the border)

Can he get them replacement birth certificates?

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The children have also been telling him they want him to come home and they want him to break up with his girlfriend. But he responds to them with extreme anger. Should I tell them not to say things like that to him? I don't tell them what to say or what not to say, but I don't want them to be hurt by his anger.

Teaching children to tell the truth is never wrong.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He wants them to think that we have split up because of some "complicated adult problems" - but that is so untrue and morally confusing. However, I feel uncomfortable countering what he says because it is very difficult to not seem like I am insulting him.


Keep it short and factual.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/09/17 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by living_well
Makes sense, OC may miss his father even more than the others do. You might also want to make sure he knows that his birth mother gave him up because she loves him. That was a very important thing for me to hold onto as a child. My birth mother could not keep me. Of course when I met my birth parents I found that the reality was a little more complex than that.

Thanks so much Living Well. He does miss WH more than the others! It has taken me by surprise because he had the least close relationship with him. He is the one most prepared to suffer WH's wrath to ask him questions about breaking up with girlfriends. But I think he misses the dream of the family as much as WH himself. Yes, I will make sure he knows that his mother wanted him to have a better life than she could give him because she loved him so much (which I think was the main motivation).

Originally Posted by Living_Well
You do realise that the visa problems will be all your fault too don't you? lol

Hahahaha! I am definitely used to being the cause of all bad things in his life. What power I have!

Originally Posted by living_well
Can he get them replacement birth certificates?

I have been thinking about this. I suspect if he called the registry office of the town where I and my first son were born in the UK and said he wanted a copy of the birth entry for my son, then he would be able to get it. But I suspect he doesn't know he can do that, and, since he doesn't do anything the official way (instead, he prefers to bribe people and cheat his way around rules), the chances of him finding out are slim. He would also have to put in time and effort to do a google search, and I don't think he puts in time and effort for anything - at least that is what the legal experience has shown. Our other two children were born in South Africa and he wouldn't be able to get documentation for them without coming to this country - and he doesn't have a visa. Catch 22.

Originally Posted by living_well
Teaching children to tell the truth is never wrong.

Originally Posted by living_well
Keep it short and factual.

Thank you. That reassures me.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He wants them to think that we have split up because of some "complicated adult problems" - but that is so untrue and morally confusing. However, I feel uncomfortable countering what he says because it is very difficult to not seem like I am insulting him.


[/quote]
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/10/17 11:52 AM
WH has responded to the maintenance application saying he doesn't have legal representation and wants to represent himself - and please could the judge forgive his lack of knowledge of the processes. I am totally baffled.

In this country, self-representation in the high court is definitely not an option.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/10/17 01:47 PM
My lawyer has just called me to say that WH seems to have neglected to object to the actual amount of money I am asking for rotflmao

He got so carried away with objecting to everything under the sun - his address, the circumstances of our separation, where his employer is based, whether the children can be considered under my "primary care" if we are separated, my "unilateral" decision to throw him out, etc, etc - that he forgot to object to the main point of the application. And since he is refusing to get legal representation, I will now go to court unopposed again - but this time with a nice helping hand from my husband who has declined his only opportunity to contest the amount.

I keep preparing myself for a fight against a criminal mastermind given that he is so skilled at deception, gaslighting and manipulation when it comes to cheating....but then get totally blindsided (in a good way) when he reveals himself to be an absolute idiot AGAIN.

Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/10/17 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He got so carried away with objecting to everything under the sun - his address, the circumstances of our separation, where his employer is based, whether the children can be considered under my "primary care" if we are separated, my "unilateral" decision to throw him out, etc, etc - that he forgot to object to the main point of the application. And since he is refusing to get legal representation, I will now go to court unopposed again - but this time with a nice helping hand from my husband who has declined his only opportunity to contest the amount.


Don't celebrate too soon. If the court gives him permission to represent himself, they will allow him to correct mistakes. My XWH is representing himself and is permitted to blow through deadlines/perjure himself in ways that no represented person would be permitted to do.

My XWH has told the court he is representing himself because he is penniless.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/10/17 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He got so carried away with objecting to everything under the sun - his address, the circumstances of our separation, where his employer is based, whether the children can be considered under my "primary care" if we are separated, my "unilateral" decision to throw him out, etc, etc - that he forgot to object to the main point of the application. And since he is refusing to get legal representation, I will now go to court unopposed again - but this time with a nice helping hand from my husband who has declined his only opportunity to contest the amount.


Don't celebrate too soon. If the court gives him permission to represent himself, they will allow him to correct mistakes. My XWH is representing himself and is permitted to blow through deadlines/perjure himself in ways that no represented person would be permitted to do.

My XWH has told the court he is representing himself because he is penniless.

Thanks Living Well. I did check and double check that he cannot possibly represent himself in the high court. Even attorneys are not allowed to do so; only advocates. But I will not get complacent as you suggest.

WH said in his affidavit that he can't afford a lawyer but also included his payslip showing that he earns USD10 000 (per month) after tax....
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/26/17 11:37 AM
Just thought I'd give a bit of an update since I haven't posted in a while. WH has started responding to court papers but inadequately and without legal representation. Although as Living Well warned, him doing this stuff on his own actually makes things more difficult for me. Everything he writes in his affidavits is lies. Absolutely every single word. But despite the fact that I keep records of everything, can produce reams of emails and messages refuting everything he says, we are stuck in a kind of limbo where things can't move forward properly and are not getting resolved.

He has a very clever tactic of agreeing to everything but then not doing it. And when we point out that he is not doing it, he just says again that he is. I am frustrated by how everyone is so easily taken in by him, and that I can't communicate the WORDS VERSES ACTIONS message effectively enough to get people to understand.

He won't get away with things in the end, because he is lying so much all the time and ignoring court orders that bring criminal contempt proceedings here, but it just means i have to fight so hard and put in so much effort at every step of the way that I am tired and frustrated.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/26/17 11:42 AM
OW is also trying to lie and bribe her way out of her criminal prosecution. We were supposed to have the full hearing on Tuesday this week, but after I drove my four children 6 hours to court, and rounded up the entire prosecution witness team myself and transported them to the court house (including the arresting police officer), we found both the prosecutor, the defence counsel and the defendant were missing in action. We found the prosecutor at around 10:30 in the morning and he seemed very annoyed that I had brought along all the witnesses and even that I was there. He then called OW's lawyer and he came along with her at about 11 (court starts at 8:30). We then had a bizarre song and dance where we were ordered in and out of the court room a few times, and then we went into the magistrate's chambers where the prosecutor delivered a totally untrue story about why he didn't want to proceed with the case that day - and the defence counsel backed him up!!!! I know that what they were saying was not true (that OW was supposed to be out of the country for a work related course) because I checked with OW's boss, who is a friend of mine. So I am now working on getting the prosecutor taken off the case and informing the lawyer's association about the fact that OW's lawyer lied in court.....

The hearing has been postponed to January. That will make it an entire year to get a prosecution for a 15-minute incident that happened in public with multiple witnesses.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/26/17 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He won't get away with things in the end, because he is lying so much all the time and ignoring court orders that bring criminal contempt proceedings here, but it just means i have to fight so hard and put in so much effort at every step of the way that I am tired and frustrated.


Relax and pace yourself, you are the tortoise and he is the hare. You will win in the end but it is going to take infinite patience on your part. Nobody has ever seen someone like your WH before so it will take them a while to get their head around the fact that an apparently highly functional individual is just playing with them.

Funny story to make you smile; my WXH was in court recently to try to overturn a freeze I had imposed on some assets of his that I discovered hidden in another country. He came into the court room waiving an eviction order and said that he was about to be put on the street and made homeless. The judge was duly impressed although there was actually nothing he could do as a US court has no jurisdiction over foreign assets.

However, my lawyer looked in the court records and found that there was no eviction. After 10 years of representing me against this individual, his eyes were finally opened.
Posted By: living_well Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/26/17 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
OW is also trying to lie and bribe her way out of her criminal prosecution.


Just think about what this is costing her :-)

Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/26/17 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He won't get away with things in the end, because he is lying so much all the time and ignoring court orders that bring criminal contempt proceedings here, but it just means i have to fight so hard and put in so much effort at every step of the way that I am tired and frustrated.


Relax and pace yourself, you are the tortoise and he is the hare. You will win in the end but it is going to take infinite patience on your part. Nobody has ever seen someone like your WH before so it will take them a while to get their head around the fact that an apparently highly functional individual is just playing with them.

Funny story to make you smile; my WXH was in court recently to try to overturn a freeze I had imposed on some assets of his that I discovered hidden in another country. He came into the court room waiving an eviction order and said that he was about to be put on the street and made homeless. The judge was duly impressed although there was actually nothing he could do as a US court has no jurisdiction over foreign assets.

However, my lawyer looked in the court records and found that there was no eviction. After 10 years of representing me against this individual, his eyes were finally opened.

Thank you so much Living Well. I can't tell you the relief to hear your experience and know I am not alone in dealing with this kind of person. I keep trying to tell my lawyers that EVERY SINGLE WORD HE WRITES is a lie. They nod and say they understand, but they don't! They don't have any idea! And they are totally taken in by his charm and gentle politeness. Luckily I am good at documentation, and we have both had travelling jobs for years, so we have always communicated things by email, giving me a solid paper trail of evidence for absolutely everything. I don't mind spending my nights drafting legal papers either. But it is the frustration of not being able to make people understand what they are dealing with that gets to me frown. I guess you are right that they will see through it in the end.

My WH produced a "payslip" as an annex in one of his affidavits which was a word document stamped with an official-looking stamp that had his company name (his employer - it is not his company) and his personal mobile number on it. Confusingly for other people, he has actually included the right amount he is earning on it. But I know that what he is doing is building up a paper trail so that he can submit a future "pay slip" constructed in the same way with fabricated figures to disguise any future annual pay increases. But trying to get my lawyer to understand that this is NOT A PAY SLIP is really hard. They think I am making a fuss about something that is not very important.
Posted By: chalkncheese Re: Fallout after exposure - help! - 10/26/17 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
OW is also trying to lie and bribe her way out of her criminal prosecution.


Just think about what this is costing her :-)

rotflmao It also cheers me up to think of the hole she keeps digging herself into with her lies. Her boss has asked me to keep her in the loop, so I am obliging and asking her to confirm all the details of stories that get presented in court. Nobody wants to employ a liar.