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Originally Posted by JanetS
IF he does just "run away" never to see the children again, would it be favourable for you to go back home to the UK where you have a support system?

He is burning all of his bridges.

Hi Janet, I have thought about it but I don't really have a support system in the UK. There is just my mum and my sister, who live 300 miles apart. I honestly could not have coped with what life has brought over the past 8 years or so, since marriage and children, without living in a country where I can afford to pay someone to live with us, look after the children, do our washing and clean the house. I do not know how my sister manages in the UK with two kids....and I have four. There's also the work issue. Could I continue to work full time in the UK, with all the commuting into London (where all the jobs are) and out, while raising four happy well-adjusted kids? I'm not sure I could.

So I guess I am prepared to sacrifice the cultural familiarity of the UK for a foreign country where raising kids as a single working mum is easier.

There's also the problem that, in the country where I live, I am not allowed to take the children across the border without my husband's written permission (formal affidavit with police stamp completed within the past 3 months) - and he still has OC's passport. We are going to be limited to travelling within this country until all the divorce and other court stuff is resolved.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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WH sent maintenance money today - phew! Albeit without the school fees portion and without sorting out medical insurance.

He did not answer the kids' skype calls last night. He hasn't spoken to them since last Saturday, although it seems not to bother them at all. I guess that is my hang-up rather than theirs and I should leave him to destroy his relationships with his children if he wants.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
WH sent maintenance money today - phew! Albeit without the school fees portion and without sorting out medical insurance.

Predictable

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He did not answer the kids' skype calls last night. He hasn't spoken to them since last Saturday, although it seems not to bother them at all. I guess that is my hang-up rather than theirs and I should leave him to destroy his relationships with his children if he wants.


yup yup yup


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Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
WH sent maintenance money today - phew! Albeit without the school fees portion and without sorting out medical insurance.

Predictable

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He did not answer the kids' skype calls last night. He hasn't spoken to them since last Saturday, although it seems not to bother them at all. I guess that is my hang-up rather than theirs and I should leave him to destroy his relationships with his children if he wants.


yup yup yup

laugh Thanks Living Well. I am starting to get the hang of this....


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I just read all about narcissism. Wow, what an eye opener! I know now what I am dealing with in WH. He seems to be an extreme case.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Just want to confirm that you are documenting all of this? The times he chooses not to see the kids even while in the same country, or answer their calls, etc?

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So when will you be going into Plan B?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
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Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by unwritten
Just want to confirm that you are documenting all of this? The times he chooses not to see the kids even while in the same country, or answer their calls, etc?

Hi Unwritten, yes, documenting everything - and have been since I threw him out in Feb. It has been invaluable to have all these records of what has happened all the way though, especially with all the legal stuff I have been dealing with.

I suspect that, after being served with the divorce papers and urgent application in relation to OC, he is now attempting to run away and start a new life. If he does not contact the children for three months, it will constitute parental abandonment.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
So when will you be going into Plan B?

I am in plan B now! No contact with WH or any of his family and friends, changed phone numbers again, changed email, only communication through lawyers - and WH's lawyers just sent a notice of withdrawal as attorneys of record so now it seems like he is actively hiding. He's left the country, his visa expires at the end of this month, and he doesn't know where I live, so there's very little chance of him turning up unexpectedly.

I have my new life here, going out with some other mums from the kids' school tonight, other social activities planned for next week and the week after, happy with work, kids enjoying their new school and activities, etc.

I have been telling the kids to click "call" on skype at 7:30 every evening, but since he hasn't picked up at all since last week, I won't do that anymore.

I do spend a little time thinking about legal strategies and scenarios to get money from WH and ensure that I will have the right to travel across borders with OC at some point - but I think it will all work out OK, even if it takes some time. Is that breaking plan B? Or is it the research about narcissim that is the problem (that was just yesterday)?

Last edited by chalkncheese; 09/05/17 09:58 PM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I feel really crushingly depressed today. So that must mean I am really in Plan B - it is a feeling I recognise from when I first threw WH out and did manage a few weeks of zero contact, with my IM arranging and implementing his outings with the kids.

I just can't believe that there is anyone in the world who would choose not to see or talk to children as lovely as I think mine are - let alone their father!! They are so much fun, so beautiful, so interesting, and so loving. I feel as though the dynamics of affairs are much easier to understand. It hurts if he wants other women rather than me, but I understand it. But to run away from your children?! To not have an unquenchable thirst to rush home and see what your baby daughter has learnt to do while you were at work?! Not to be desperate to hear school stories from three little boys who are just testing the waters of friendships and trying to make each other laugh?! Not to see their smiles and bask in their innocent affection?! Not to be the one to answer their questions, explain things to them, shape their knowledge and personalities. How????

Is it really that the relationships between mothers and their children are so different to those of fathers?



Last edited by chalkncheese; 09/06/17 05:59 AM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Aw Chalk I feel for you. I have those same thoughts daily. I used to think of WH as one of the most involved fathers I knew. And now he has missed most of my sons first year of life, forgot my daughters birthday which has said even recently is the happiest day of his life, and literally sees them 5% of the time. It just goes to show how WS's are truly addicts, nothing else matters besides their addiction. I know I struggle with letting go, but overall my self esteem has not been damaged much by WH's actions because I know he loves his kids and his parents but is treating them with the same disregard that he is treating me. Its not about us, the kids, or anyone else but themselves.

And this is not unique to fathers. My WH is in an affair with a married woman with 2 kids under 2, one that she is trying to adopt that she has had since birth that if her BH ever gets the balls to divorce her, she will lose. All for my loser WH who is already cheating on her! I could never understand a mother doing the things she is doing, but yet its happening.

I keep telling myself, if this is who WH truly is, then I dont want him. If this lack of interest in your kids continues from your WH, then you dont want him either. Its going to be a journey to get to that point but thats the reality.


BW (Me): 39
FWH: 39
DD: 5
DS: 3

D-Day 1: 5/8/17
Plan B started: 6/19/17
For real: 11/13/17-4/3/18
Affair ended: 3/25/18

DD 2: 2/14/20

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Is it really that the relationships between mothers and their children are so different to those of fathers?

I can't speak for all fathers, of course, but I too share that unquenchable thirst to spend as much time with my children as possible. I wasn't the type (like WW) to want to sign them up for tons of after-school activities and spend countless hours driving back and forth to practices and such. (I couldn't really, given my work schedule)

But whether at home or at a relative's, in the backyard or at a park, I've always wanted to spend as much time with my kids as possible. This could be playing catch with DS, discussing politics with DD1 (which she loves), or watching an old movie with DD2. (she loves Audrey Hepburn, Julie Andrews, Jimmy Stewart, etc.)

Since WW moved out, I only have the kids a week at a time now, and I'll tell you...the last two days before I get them back for a week are VERY rough on me. I try to keep busy with home projects, spend time with my father, etc., but it's not the same when the kids aren't in the house with me. The kids came home this evening after a week away, and I've been in heaven. I cooked a big dinner for us and we had great dinner-table conversation; spent 30 minutes talking to DD1 about a new "friend" that she met at work. He's 19 to her 17, so I'm a bit concerned TEEF but I do trust her a lot; DS is excited about taking web programming at school and I spent an hour teaching him HTML; DD2 and I spent an hour together listening to music and teaching her a few chords on the guitar. Interspersed with all this is conversation, lots of conversation: about their first week of school, our plans to fly to Florida for my brother's wedding in November, and everything under the sun.

I can't imagine not wanting to spend time with my kids, or not taking the opportunity to talk to them as much as possible. I'm sorry chalk & amac that your kids have to suffer through having an absent father. Of course, as long as they remain wayward they'll be lousy parents, so there is a positive aspect to their absence. Yet, every child deserves to have two loving parents in their lives, and I'm sorry that this has happened to them.

My WW continues to spend a lot of time with my children, so at least she's not absent. In fact, she's overdoing it by being overly demanding of their time, which at 17 years old risks pushing them away from annoyance. Her continuing waywardness is a terrible example to them, so though at least she's in their lives, I'm worried how this will affect their future relationships.



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Originally Posted by amac
Aw Chalk I feel for you. I have those same thoughts daily. I used to think of WH as one of the most involved fathers I knew. And now he has missed most of my sons first year of life, forgot my daughters birthday which has said even recently is the happiest day of his life, and literally sees them 5% of the time. It just goes to show how WS's are truly addicts, nothing else matters besides their addiction. I know I struggle with letting go, but overall my self esteem has not been damaged much by WH's actions because I know he loves his kids and his parents but is treating them with the same disregard that he is treating me. Its not about us, the kids, or anyone else but themselves.

And this is not unique to fathers. My WH is in an affair with a married woman with 2 kids under 2, one that she is trying to adopt that she has had since birth that if her BH ever gets the balls to divorce her, she will lose. All for my loser WH who is already cheating on her! I could never understand a mother doing the things she is doing, but yet its happening.

I keep telling myself, if this is who WH truly is, then I dont want him. If this lack of interest in your kids continues from your WH, then you dont want him either. Its going to be a journey to get to that point but thats the reality.

Thanks amac. It really helps knowing that someone else is going through the same stuff. And you are totally right: this is the real evidence that affairs are an addiction just like drugs or alcohol. My father was an alcoholic who drank himself to death by age 56, despite all the (obviously useless) efforts of my mum, my sister and I to try to shake him out of it over many years. I didn't speak to him for 5 years between the ages of 17 and 22, but that didn't have any impact at all apart from giving him more excuses to feel sorry for himself.

I guess I have to start thinking of my husband in that kind of way. He will only change if he hits rock bottom. But as a normal, sane person, you have no idea how low an addict can go without hitting the bottom and waking-up to what they have done. The problem is, because they are not actually drunk or drugged, it is so easy to forget that waywards are totally crazy and then accept their meaningless words as being the same kind of words the rest of us use.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by abrrba
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Is it really that the relationships between mothers and their children are so different to those of fathers?

I can't speak for all fathers, of course, but I too share that unquenchable thirst to spend as much time with my children as possible. I wasn't the type (like WW) to want to sign them up for tons of after-school activities and spend countless hours driving back and forth to practices and such. (I couldn't really, given my work schedule)

But whether at home or at a relative's, in the backyard or at a park, I've always wanted to spend as much time with my kids as possible. This could be playing catch with DS, discussing politics with DD1 (which she loves), or watching an old movie with DD2. (she loves Audrey Hepburn, Julie Andrews, Jimmy Stewart, etc.)

Since WW moved out, I only have the kids a week at a time now, and I'll tell you...the last two days before I get them back for a week are VERY rough on me. I try to keep busy with home projects, spend time with my father, etc., but it's not the same when the kids aren't in the house with me. The kids came home this evening after a week away, and I've been in heaven. I cooked a big dinner for us and we had great dinner-table conversation; spent 30 minutes talking to DD1 about a new "friend" that she met at work. He's 19 to her 17, so I'm a bit concerned TEEF but I do trust her a lot; DS is excited about taking web programming at school and I spent an hour teaching him HTML; DD2 and I spent an hour together listening to music and teaching her a few chords on the guitar. Interspersed with all this is conversation, lots of conversation: about their first week of school, our plans to fly to Florida for my brother's wedding in November, and everything under the sun.

I can't imagine not wanting to spend time with my kids, or not taking the opportunity to talk to them as much as possible. I'm sorry chalk & amac that your kids have to suffer through having an absent father. Of course, as long as they remain wayward they'll be lousy parents, so there is a positive aspect to their absence. Yet, every child deserves to have two loving parents in their lives, and I'm sorry that this has happened to them.

My WW continues to spend a lot of time with my children, so at least she's not absent. In fact, she's overdoing it by being overly demanding of their time, which at 17 years old risks pushing them away from annoyance. Her continuing waywardness is a terrible example to them, so though at least she's in their lives, I'm worried how this will affect their future relationships.

Hi Abrrba, I am so sorry for insensitively tarring all fathers with the wayward brush!! And I really feel your pain of not being able to share daily life with your kids anymore, as a result of your wife's decisions. Your love for them is so clear in the way you describe them, and your kids will be able to see the truth of what has happened over time. I'm so sorry.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Hi Abrrba, I am so sorry for insensitively tarring all fathers with the wayward brush!! And I really feel your pain of not being able to share daily life with your kids anymore, as a result of your wife's decisions. Your love for them is so clear in the way you describe them, and your kids will be able to see the truth of what has happened over time. I'm so sorry.

Not to worry, Chalk, I didn't take offense! smile


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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I just can't believe that there is anyone in the world who would choose not to see or talk to children as lovely as I think mine are - let alone their father!! They are so much fun, so beautiful, so interesting, and so loving. I feel as though the dynamics of affairs are much easier to understand. It hurts if he wants other women rather than me, but I understand it. But to run away from your children?! To not have an unquenchable thirst to rush home and see what your baby daughter has learnt to do while you were at work?! Not to be desperate to hear school stories from three little boys who are just testing the waters of friendships and trying to make each other laugh?! Not to see their smiles and bask in their innocent affection?! Not to be the one to answer their questions, explain things to them, shape their knowledge and personalities. How????

Is it really that the relationships between mothers and their children are so different to those of fathers?

I can relate to your feelings - my ex WH has virtually no relationship with our DD 21 and has done things that are repulsive regarding both of the kids since the time of our separation and continues through today (truly I could write a novel).

It's not a mother-child thing. It's a wayward thing. (More on this to come.) Try not to waste too much energy understanding it. There really is no understanding a wayward except to know that they are entitled, dishonest and selfish.


Ddays 2007 and 2011
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He will only change if he hits rock bottom. But as a normal, sane person, you have no idea how low an addict can go without hitting the bottom and waking-up to what they have done.

I don't want to take away all of your hope but I don't necessarily agree that a serial cheating wayward can change if he "hits rock bottom."

Let me explain.

A serial cheater isn't in the same "addiction fog" that a garden variety cheater is - you take away the OP and the fog clears. No. What they are addicted to is attention from the OS. (I talked to Dr Harley personally about this on the radio show one time) It is a HUGE part of their personality. Their ability to attract OS attention is a skill set...they're GOOD at it and it makes them FEEL GOOD to do it.

Dr Harley: It's going to be a real trick getting him to give that up.

How do you get them to give it up? And get them away from their drug? It's literally taking them out of the path of being able to get attention from the OS.

And in the case of my ex WH, the more difficult things got for him - the more he seems to retreat into his entitled, woe is me, victim mentality. I don't think that's an uncommon thing for serial cheaters.


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Originally Posted by SusieQ
And in the case of my ex WH, the more difficult things got for him - the more he seems to retreat into his entitled, woe is me, victim mentality. I don't think that's an uncommon thing for serial cheaters.


Same here, mine is in breach of contract for failing to divide the marital assets. Somehow that has become my fault. He has convinced himself that I have hidden the assets that he took offshore. You cannot make this stuff up.


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Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He will only change if he hits rock bottom. But as a normal, sane person, you have no idea how low an addict can go without hitting the bottom and waking-up to what they have done.

I don't want to take away all of your hope but I don't necessarily agree that a serial cheating wayward can change if he "hits rock bottom."

Let me explain.

A serial cheater isn't in the same "addiction fog" that a garden variety cheater is - you take away the OP and the fog clears. No. What they are addicted to is attention from the OS. (I talked to Dr Harley personally about this on the radio show one time) It is a HUGE part of their personality. Their ability to attract OS attention is a skill set...they're GOOD at it and it makes them FEEL GOOD to do it.

Dr Harley: It's going to be a real trick getting him to give that up.

How do you get them to give it up? And get them away from their drug? It's literally taking them out of the path of being able to get attention from the OS.

And in the case of my ex WH, the more difficult things got for him - the more he seems to retreat into his entitled, woe is me, victim mentality. I don't think that's an uncommon thing for serial cheaters.

Thanks SuzieQ. This REALLY hits home for me. When you say it so succinctly like that, it really makes me see how small the chances of any change are. Why would he change? And how could he anyway? Even if he decided at some particular low point that he really wanted his marriage and family, to the exclusion of all other women, in order to keep us he would have to keep on making that decision a thousand times every day for the rest of his life. And if his entire adult life has been devoted to honing these women-attracting skills, and implementing them brings him so much reward on a daily basis, that would mean a decision to not do what he really wanted to do a thousand times every day.

I definitely can't say no to chocolate with that kind of conviction, even though I really really want to be 5kgs lighter wink.

I also recognise the victim mentality that both you and Living Well cite. It is fascinating to see how he can twist absolutely everything to be an attack by me on him - even when it was he and his girlfriend dragging me into courts, bringing police to my house, and both of them assaulting and threatening me. Somehow that was still me attacking him. And this repetitive refrain he has now adopted that him not having seen the kids since June (apart from 10 mins at the airport last week) is due to me preventing him from having access - not the fact that he hasn't lifted a finger to book a trip or make a plan.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by SusieQ
I don't want to take away all of your hope....

It's not as though I have loads of "hope" that there is going to be a happy ending where our family is all back together. I don't really think about it like that. But I guess I don't yet feel as though the story is quite finished. I don't think he has yet had a chance to feel the effects of what has happened, and I am curious to know how it will affect him. I have learnt so much about human beings during this whole process, and I haven't finished learning.

But I am in a safe place now and happy that the divorce and other legal stuff is proceeding. So what happens with him will not change the fact that the kids and I have a really nice new life without him - and lots to look forward to.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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