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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
As SusieQ recommended Serial Cheaters

There are some radio clips at the end of the thread.

Thanks a lot Brain Hurts. Yes, I've read the thread and listened to the clips several times. What Dr Harley says totally matches my instinct from living with a guy like this: there is no way I could ever be secure in a relationship with my husband unless we were together 24/7, we worked together as if we were one person, and if I had to do something on my own ever (like going to the hairdresser, for example), then I would have to ensure that he was in sole charge of the kids during that time and that he had no access to a phone. Any random interaction with women in any context whatsoever is a risk.

I have been living with this fear for such a long time now that the calm I am now experiencing as a result of plan B is amazing. And I feel that each day I am insulated in my plan B takes me one step further away from ever wanting to experience that kind of insecurity again. Since it has only been a month now, I still have some yo-yoing backwards and forwards because there are things i miss so much about our life together. But I know that will fade as time passes.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by SusieQ
When I learned of my WxH's first affair/s, we came to MB and recovered (really, a false recovery) but we went through the online program and our M was probably the best it had been besides the honeymoon period. Yet he cheated, again. Dr Harley told me that he had read through our questionnaires, etc, and my WxH had no complaints about our M and his ENs were being met.

I can really empathise with this. My husband has always told me - and shown me - that he is "so happy" with our marriage and family. To all intents and purposes, it seems as though we have /had a great relationship. The kids are happy and secure, we have lots of fun together, our home has always been happy and calm - except for my constant fear of his phone and niggling anxiety that he is not all-in with me, even when I had not seen any evidence to confirm fears.

The weirdest thing for me has been that the past four years or so have been the time when we have really stabilised ourselves as a family, after the trauma of the OC and the challenges of establishing an international marriage while still moving around between countries, dealing with visas, etc. We really did manage to navigate our way through the OC situation successfully. We now have total NC with the mother and I am adopting him. I thought we were happy. But what I have now learnt is that being happy doesn't actually have any impact on my husband's behaviour at all. It is just so sad.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by SusieQ
It might be wise to allow him a window of time to speak to the kids every day. It would be a good question for your lawyer. Here in the US, parents are basically discouraged from blocking access to the kids via phone calls/texting etc.

Thanks SusieQ. I will check with the lawyer what the recommendations are. Once he moves for his new job, he won't be able to see them very often (since it would require him paying for a pretty expensive plane ticket each time) so I know we will have to schedule calls from then onwards.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
My question is, should I share this opinion with WH or not?

You realize that you would not be communicating anything to your WH besides issues related to visitation or finances that are absolutely unavoidable?

For instance, if he was to break into the house again and start yelling at you about the OW, do not discuss her, the D, EPs or anything like that with him anymore. Go to your bedroom and shut the door. In fact since we are discussing it, do you have a plan for what you will do if he breaks in again? Are the locks changed?

The locks are changed. When he broke in, he climbed over the 10ft high front gate in the middle of the day when we had the doors of the house open because the kids were playing outside. I have asked the landlord to put barbed wire over the top of the gate to prevent it happening again - although I know my husband had a scheduled knee operation a couple of days ago, so I think the likelihood of him being in a condition to scale the gate again in the next few weeks is minimal.

When I saw him walking inside last time, I did run to the bedroom and lock the door - but then I came out and asked him why he had broken in. It was a pointless discussion full of fogbabble and gaslighting that just left me feeling really depressed. So yes, if there is ever an incident like that again, I know the right thing to do is to go into the bedroom and stay there until he is gone.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by goody2shoes
You just got out of a burning house, don't go back inside. You will get severely burnt.

Hi Goody2Shoes, I am just reading back through the advice people have given me since the start of the thread and I wanted to say that this sentence you wrote had a real impact on me. I repeat it to myself frequently throughout the day and it has helped me firm up my plan B and stay focused on what I need to do. Thanks!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Just a small update since it has been a week or so. I am quite happily in Plan B now - and getting less and less keen on the idea of ever speaking to my husband again. I guess that is the beneficial effect of Plan B.

He went in to hospital for an elective knee operation yesterday and has been bombarding all our mutual friends and family with messages trying to get sympathy for his "pain". As a result I have been fielding calls and messages from several people asking why I don't care about my husband. I have tried to repeat over and over to everyone: I love my husband. I want him to come home. But he has not broken up with his girlfriend and I refuse to accept for him to have a girlfriend and a wife. If he breaks up with his girlfriend and can prove to me there are precautions in place to prevent them ever contacting each other again, then I would welcome him home with open arms. But so far, he has done absolutely nothing to show me that.

It is frustrating that these messages have broken into my plan B calm, but at least they are not coming from him directly.

He is due to leave the country to start his new job on May 1, so I now think it is time to get my lawyer to contact him with respect to a parenting plan and maintenance payments from May onwards. It would be better to sort that out before he leaves so that the children are protected.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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The amount of effort he seems to be putting in to try to manipulate everyone around him to support his efforts to get back into our house are impressive. If only he could direct that effort towards actually changing his lifestyle then we might get somewhere. Sigh. He still does not believe fidelity is non-negotiable, I think.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I'm sorry to say it does not sound like you are in Plan B yet. It is not Plan B when you know what he is doing day to day and regularly have 'friends' calling to tell you his fogbabble and speak on his behalf.

You will feel so much better when you are really in Plan B.

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You need to tell these people that you don't want to hear anything about your WH. What can you do to close these Plan B holes?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thank you Unwritten and Brain Hurts. I will tell everyone to stop telling me about him. After I changed my number, it was all quiet for a while. But he started this campaign of trying to get people to get to me when he went into hospital this week.

I know from reading other threads that it is common for WSs to keep on saying "how am I supposed to prove that I have changed if she won't talk to me?" - and I am getting that message from people a lot. I feel like I should respond so that I emphasise that if he can demonstrate that he is ready for NC with OW and has implemented extraordinary precautions then we can talk. And that the reason there is no contact between us is because he has done nothing at all to show any sign of change. But I guess these interactions do undermine plan B.

He is leaving the country at the end of April. And when we move to the neighbouring country next month, everything will be a lot easier to manage.

One question: I want to establish a parenting plan and maintenance arrangement for the children (these are legal steps that accompany separation in the country we are moving to) and get it agreed in writing before he leaves at the end of April. My lawyer will initiate the communication with him via email, but should I make clear when I start the process that I do not want to see or talk to him directly? I am wondering if it will be possible to avoid.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Didn't you write in your Plan B letter on what he needs to do?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Didn't you write in your Plan B letter on what he needs to do?

Hi Brain Hurts, yes. I followed the template plan B letter. But he is determined to ignore it. I have also sent him the checklist from SAA for ending an affair several times. The last time was after he broke into the house (after the start of plan B) trying to get me to agree that he would move back in after he completed his last trip abroad for work.

Since I threw him out on February 21st, he has been trying everything possible to manipulate and regain control. Although he was travelling for four weeks so I am only really seeing the manipulation up close from this week. He refuses to honor the arrangements set out in the plan B letter - especially with respect to the kids. For every boundary I set, he tries to evade/ignore it. I said he can see the kids once a week on Saturday and that he must arrange a time in advance with our nanny who will bring the children to him. He did that once, on the first Saturday. But then he started coming at random times (always with reasons - in between his travelling), then he unilaterally decided Sunday was his day for seeing the kids not Saturday, then he tries to call to speak to them at random times (when I had told him I find it too painful for him to disrupt our family home life in that way). He tells everyone that he doesn't know what he is supposed to do in order to come back home. He says if I won't talk to him he can't show that he has broken up with OW. And coerces people to act on his behalf to berate me and wear me down - all with the aim of getting back into the house. I have told people not to pass on these messages. But he just gets different people to contact me.

He seems so desperate to come home, but too arrogant/entitled to exhibit a hint of remorse for what has happened or willingness to demonstrate change (he is happy to say "I've changed! You just can't see because I'm not in the house"). He is acting as though he is waiting for ME to try to win HIM back - and that is a message others acting on his behalf have reinforced. It is really a bizarre situation and I would appreciate any advice from anyone that might have come across this type of personality before. I am just standing my ground, being like a broken record about ending the affair and no contact with OW, and sending the SAA checklist to all of these people who keep asking me what he is supposed to do. I don't know if it will ever sink in though.

Last edited by chalkncheese; 04/01/17 02:55 PM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Sorry, I have just realised the question related to the parenting plan comment. Yes, I wrote about contact with the kids in the plan B letter - but the arrangements only apply to the situation we are in now where we are both in the same country. When he moves to his new job at the end of this month, he will be a four hour flight away. And i am concerned that without a legal agreement that specifies that he is supposed to actually continue to see the kids regularly, he will make a unilateral decision to fly to see them very infrequently - which would be a terrible shock for the kids who are used to living with two parents full time and would leave me being a single mum of four. I do not want to give him the opportunity to just abandon his responsibilities like that.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
He seems so desperate to come home, but too arrogant/entitled to exhibit a hint of remorse for what has happened or willingness to demonstrate change (he is happy to say "I've changed! You just can't see because I'm not in the house"). He is acting as though he is waiting for ME to try to win HIM back - and that is a message others acting on his behalf have reinforced. It is really a bizarre situation and I would appreciate any advice from anyone that might have come across this type of personality before. I am just standing my ground, being like a broken record about ending the affair and no contact with OW, and sending the SAA checklist to all of these people who keep asking me what he is supposed to do. I don't know if it will ever sink in though.


He sounds very like my WXH. I wonder if this is something all serial cheaters share? My XH has invented a different version of reality where he is the victim. Indeed he tells everyone that I 'abandoned the family'. Luckily the children are older and completely ignore him. In the court room he has contradicted/yelled at the judge and been escorted out at gunpoint. And yet he is a successful businessman.

I recommend you not expect him to have a sudden blinding moment when it hits him that either he changes or he loses you. He is going to try everything else first. You might want to write to Dr Harley and get his take on this.


3 adult children
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You should tell these people that you gave him the road home and it's all in the letter you gave him and he knows that. Then tell them that you're trying to heal from all of his affairs and SSL that you would appreciate them to respect your wishes and not to talk about him with you again. When will your lawyer be putting a parenting plan together and send to him?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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chalkncheese, what are doing for your self-care? Being a BW and a Mother of four is very stressful, so what are you able to do? What plans do you have?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
You should tell these people that you gave him the road home and it's all in the letter you gave him and he knows that. Then tell them that you're trying to heal from all of his affairs and SSL that you would appreciate them to respect your wishes and not to talk about him with you again. When will your lawyer be putting a parenting plan together and send to him?

Thank you Brain Hurts. After I wrote the replies yesterday, WH contacted my sister and again repeated that he doesn't know what he is supposed to do. So I took the decision to send him a direct mail with the subject "Here is what we need to do". I just don't want this crazy circular arguing with so many people involved to go on any longer - and there is a slight concern in my mind that perhaps he really didn't understand the specific actions required by reading the SAA checklist since English is not his first language, and the checklist does require a bit of thought to translate into really specific actionable steps.

In my email, I made clear that I will not accept to reconcile with him unless we affair proof our marriage. I explained that means totally changing our lifestyle so that we eliminate risk of cheating. I included a list of example extraordinary precautions that we would need to implement in order to affair proof our marriage because I know he would never make this leap by himself. He does not even nearly understand that total, fundamental lifestyle change is what is required.

Here is the list I put together:
[START OF QUOTE]
We need to be together 24/7 - at least until we build some trust.
We never spend a night apart ever.
We need to work together (either we start our own business or you employ me in your office in New Job City) and travel together to work in one car.
We need to spend our leisure time together doing things we both want to do.
It means never having friends who are women and never spending any time one-on-one with a woman - regardless of whether it is for work or not.
It means not going out without me. If you want to drink with men, you invite them home so that you are with me at the same time.
It means NEVER being alone with a phone so that you have the freedom to make a call to a woman in private.
It means deleting all contacts of women from anywhere (especially Current Home Country) and changing all your numbers so they can't find you.
It means not having a smart phone. No whatsapp, no facebook, no other types of messaging. Calls only. With the itemised phone bill emailed to me.
It means giving me access to all your email accounts (after changing ALL your email addresses so that no women you already know can contact you), skype and anything else.
It means me being able to see every single thing you write to anyone ever, hear every conversation, and monitor all your internet usage.
It means we only have one bank account and I can see all money you spend on anything ever.

And these are just what I can think of off the top of my head........we would need to sit down and systematically think of all the possible risky situations that could lead you to develop an inappropriate friendship with a woman that could lead to an affair and then develop a specific plan to address that risk. We would need to do that for all aspects of life, all our time, and all hypothetical situations from now until the end of our lives. And get a good marriage counsellor to guide us through the recovery process after we have secured our marriage from risk.
[END OF QUOTE]

So now that I have sent this mail, and know he will now be aware of how extreme the changes he needs to make are, I think he might back off a bit and focus on his move at the end of the month. And that will give me the peace and quiet to look after myself and the kids better. (Or else it will prompt another round of abusive calls and messages from his family and friends telling me how unreasonable I am not to give my serial cheating, pathologically lying husband freedom.....)

I haven't been great with self-care to be honest. I try to stay in the house as much as possible to avoid any contact with OW or people that know her. After the police incident, I know she can't do anything physically to me, but it is still not a nice experience to think I might have to see her. We live in a tiny place and it is impossible to go to the one supermarket without bumping into four to five people I know. It is indeed extremely stressful. So I am putting all my efforts into trying to plan for our move to the neighbouring country in mid-June. Looking for houses, planning for activities the kids will be able to take up, thinking about nice ways to decorate my new home, etc. I feel in limbo, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. And after my husband moves at the end of this month, stress will be considerably reduced.



Last edited by chalkncheese; 04/02/17 03:29 AM. Reason: To remove city and country names

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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PS. I have an appointment with my lawyer on Thursday to discuss the parenting plan and maintenance order. I think I will then need to find a social worker to liaise with my husband and I. I just hope they will be able to do the liaison speedily so that we get things sorted before my husband moves country.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by living_well
He sounds very like my WXH. I wonder if this is something all serial cheaters share? My XH has invented a different version of reality where he is the victim. Indeed he tells everyone that I 'abandoned the family'.....
I recommend you not expect him to have a sudden blinding moment when it hits him that either he changes or he loses you. He is going to try everything else first. You might want to write to Dr Harley and get his take on this.

Thanks a lot Living Well. I went to read your posts because your experience sounds similar. It's so reassuring to realise I am not the only one dealing with such weirdness. I know for sure that he will continue hanging onto his SSL unless it becomes clear to him that he has been backed into a corner. On the few occasions where I have managed to "win" a battle of wills, it has been because I have put my foot down so hard and refused to accept his manipulations. (One example was when I took him away for my weekend of Plan A. I refused to depart the house without him leaving one of his phones at home and me keeping the other one in my handbag. It was a 3 hour battle with him screaming and shouting and stomping around. But he eventually agreed. And we left and had a nice weekend) So I know he can give in, and that when he does he is suddenly transformed into a calm and nice person, but only if I fight with everything i have. And how can I do that every day for the rest of my life?!

Like your XWH, mine also does not want to leave his marriage at all. He doesn't see any reason why he should - but then why would he?! It has always been a great life for him! I also don't want to divorce. I love him very deeply. But I have reached the point now where I am not prepared to accept anything less than fundamental change. So if he is not going to do that - and all the signs now are that he isn't - then I will just focus on my new life alone with the kids and let him move on with his. I won't close the door on him should he ever wake up at some point in the future. But I am not holding out hope (I'm trying not to at least....)


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Could someone please advise me on what to do when WH does not respect boundaries in Plan B? I am struggling because we need to exchange documentation with regards to movement across the border, visas and medical information for the children, but he does not respect arrangements made with the IM for delivering his part of the documentation - and this behaviour really disturbs me just when I am starting to feel calm.

Here's an example. I asked IM to contact him to request that he delivers a letter giving me permission to take my baby daughter to be vaccinated (a requirement for me to get across the border to the clinic; he needs to do a new one each time). He replied saying yes he will. Yesterday, he told the IM he will drop the letter at the gate of our house in the evening. He did not turn up. Then he sent another message saying he would come today, but not giving a time. So now I have been in limbo since yesterday wondering when the letter is going to arrive and worrying if he will try to break into the house again - which totally ruins my sense of peace and calm. Every car sound outside the house is making me anxious.

How do I deal with this situation? He does not respect appointments at all and does not respect that this is messing up my time. Or maybe he does understand that it is messing me up, and he is just trying to control a situation he has no control over. When I packed his clothes and threw him out, he did the same thing: saying he would come at a certain time and then not coming, eventually turning up at a random time with no warning. But at least I had the power to leave his suitcases out in the rain as a consequence of him not coming when he said he would. In the current situation, I need him to bring the letter, so I don't have any way to enforce boundaries at all.

Maybe there is no way around it until we move to a new place and he can't just turn up because he won't know where we live.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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