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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The predictable result was a traumatised OC crying that he doesn't want to be a "special boy who has two mothers" anymore, he only wants his English mother and he wants to come home to his brothers and sister. I just want him home. I am so worried that he will be scarred as a result of this experience. Or that his biological mother will withdraw her consent for adoption now that she sees how he doesn't want to be in his home country anymore.


He is missing you which is not at all surprising. This visit is not going to scar him. Once he is a teenager and starts asking the inevitable 'who am I' questions, he may want to visit again.

Hard to know how his birth mother will react. Presume giving up the child was due to communal pressure because he was born out of wedlock. That pressure will not have gone away. So whether she is upset or not, unlikely that her family will permit her to change her mind. You should send her a photo of him once a year and let him write. Even if she cannot read, a letter from him would help them both.


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Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
The predictable result was a traumatised OC crying that he doesn't want to be a "special boy who has two mothers" anymore, he only wants his English mother and he wants to come home to his brothers and sister. I just want him home. I am so worried that he will be scarred as a result of this experience. Or that his biological mother will withdraw her consent for adoption now that she sees how he doesn't want to be in his home country anymore.


He is missing you which is not at all surprising. This visit is not going to scar him. Once he is a teenager and starts asking the inevitable 'who am I' questions, he may want to visit again.

Hard to know how his birth mother will react. Presume giving up the child was due to communal pressure because he was born out of wedlock. That pressure will not have gone away. So whether she is upset or not, unlikely that her family will permit her to change her mind. You should send her a photo of him once a year and let him write. Even if she cannot read, a letter from him would help them both.

Thanks Living well. Yes, it was due to pressure and the fact that they are from a country that assumes children belong to the father rather than the mother. All that happened when we brought OC to live with us was that my husband had to sign an affidavit saying that he acknowledged paternity and that he was bringing the child to live in his marital home. OC's mother had to certify that she had never been married to my husband and that she consented to him coming to live with us - although you are right she had no real choice.

Her father has since died, so that dissipates family pressure from her side; however, money, as always, is the main concern. Initially, she thought having my husband's child would give her a life-long revenue generating asset. When he was two years old, I woke up to that fact and demanded that I take over all communication with her and sending of money so that WH had no contact. Very soon afterwards, her family approached his family for negotiations over us taking him. She is now getting money from another man.

I think that annual letters are a very good idea. I want OC to be able to establish the relationship properly when he is ready, but to keep the door open in such a way that doesn't conflict with his strong desires to be just the same as his brothers right now. It is so difficult to navigate between everyone's self interest in this situation - and to work out where the line is between his mother's desire to see and interact with him, and what I think he needs (to feel a sense of belonging to a stable loving family with his siblings).


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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When I first found this website it was Dr Harley's advice about no contact with the mother of an OC that really impressed me - because I could see how important it was for us, having been through that situation (and, I think, successfully managed it so far). But it is still so controversial an idea with anyone else I speak to. It seems very hard for people to get their heads around how it could be a good thing for there to be no contact between a biological mother and her child, especially if she is not a drug addict or abuser (which she is not). But for us it has honestly helped give OC a deep sense of emotional security at a crucial time. These first few years of a child's life are so short and so important. She will always be his mother and, when he is old enough, we will give him all the support he needs to establish a relationship with her as and when the desire, and maturity, comes. But we really felt that frequent contact from her (which was what she wanted) was extremely disruptive to our family and confusing to him, so we stopped it fairly shortly after he came to live with us.

If I put myself in her position, I know how incredibly painful it would be not to see and speak to my children. But, in this situation, prioritising her pain would have had detrimental effects for him - and risk the family environment for his siblings too. Sometimes I wonder whether I think that just because that is the best situation for me, too. I guess it is hard to really know your own motivations, even if you think you are acting selflessly.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
If I put myself in her position, I know how incredibly painful it would be not to see and speak to my children. But, in this situation, prioritising her pain would have had detrimental effects for him - and risk the family environment for his siblings too. Sometimes I wonder whether I think that just because that is the best situation for me, too. I guess it is hard to really know your own motivations, even if you think you are acting selflessly.


It sounds as if that would have been an incredibly unhealthy place for him to grow up in. I cannot believe that the taboos against immoral behaviour would not have made him feel excluded by his extended family when he was no longer an adorable little boy.


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Under normal circumstances I would think it a good idea to stay in contact with the birth mother, exchange photos, etc. But in your complex and volitile situation, I would caution you against doing this. I think staying as far away from the birth mother (also former AP), who is also a connection to your volitile WH, and this whole crazy life you are escaping from, is in everyone's best interest. And I don't think it is bad at all for you to look at this from a perspective of what is best and easiest for YOU. After all, keeping you healthy and safe is also best for OC.

I would encourage you to ask Dr Harley for his opinion on this if you question how to handle it.

And prayers for OC, that he handle this well emotionally and return to you safely and soon.

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Originally Posted by unwritten
Under normal circumstances I would think it a good idea to stay in contact with the birth mother, exchange photos, etc. But in your complex and volitile situation, I would caution you against doing this. I think staying as far away from the birth mother (also former AP), who is also a connection to your volitile WH, and this whole crazy life you are escaping from, is in everyone's best interest. And I don't think it is bad at all for you to look at this from a perspective of what is best and easiest for YOU. After all, keeping you healthy and safe is also best for OC.

I would encourage you to ask Dr Harley for his opinion on this if you question how to handle it.

And prayers for OC, that he handle this well emotionally and return to you safely and soon.
I agree. I think Dr. Harley would tell you to continue NC with the OC's birth mom. Will you write Dr. Harley and ask him?


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
I agree. I think Dr. Harley would tell you to continue NC with the OC's birth mom. Will you write Dr. Harley and ask him?


Just to clarify, my suggestion was that OC write to his birth mother once a year/send a photo, not that Chalk be in touch with her.


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by unwritten
Under normal circumstances I would think it a good idea to stay in contact with the birth mother, exchange photos, etc. But in your complex and volitile situation, I would caution you against doing this. I think staying as far away from the birth mother (also former AP), who is also a connection to your volitile WH, and this whole crazy life you are escaping from, is in everyone's best interest. And I don't think it is bad at all for you to look at this from a perspective of what is best and easiest for YOU. After all, keeping you healthy and safe is also best for OC.

I would encourage you to ask Dr Harley for his opinion on this if you question how to handle it.

And prayers for OC, that he handle this well emotionally and return to you safely and soon.
I agree. I think Dr. Harley would tell you to continue NC with the OC's birth mom. Will you write Dr. Harley and ask him?

Thank you Living Well, Unwritten and Brain Hurts. Yes, I think I will write to Dr Harley. I haven't spend too much of my thread focused on OC (apart from the visa issue) because i felt as though we had worked through it fairly successfully, albeit with a lot more trauma and suffering for me than would have been necessary had I known about MB at the time. However, the fact that I obviously didn't deal with the issue of WH's infidelities in a way that would have prevented his philandering becoming an entrenched part of our married life, means the pain of OC's conception, birth and first two years of life living with his birth mother, is still quite raw for me, even though I have had lots more pain and betrayal to deal with since then. I am triggered every time I see his birth certificate, for example, and since we need to present birth certificates for everything in this part of the world, it's a routine challenge. But the fact that OC loves me and his siblings with such a passion (WH definitely less so), and has done from the first moment that we picked him up from his original home in 2014, really helped me with the process of integrating him into the family. Sometimes I think we have an extra special bond because of this experience: we were the two victims of what happened and we have supported each other to deal with the pain.

I'll let you know what Dr Harley says.



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Just phoned my health insurer and discovered that WH stopped paying our account at the end of April. So the kids and I have been driving hundreds of kms all over the country during the move with no medical insurance. Of course there are a thousand excuses for why he wasn't able to pay: he transferred the debit order to another account and somehow it didn't active, then he had to settle the outstanding months before the insurer would reactivate the plan, then for some reason the payment didn't go through......just like the maintenance payments.....

My WH seems to have amazing difficulties with banks. I don't have any problem paying things and providing proofs of payment. But for him, despite running a national office of a US company and employing 200 staff, it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay a bill, wire money or obtain statements from banks because "they just don't get back to me". He claims not to know what a proof of payment is and why it is different from a screen grab. We are talking about a medical doctor with three advanced degrees and years of experience as the managing director of a national office. Anyone else experienced such a case of infidelity-induced selective incapacity?!

Last edited by chalkncheese; 07/20/17 05:40 AM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Just phoned my health insurer and discovered that WH stopped paying our account at the end of April. So the kids and I have been driving hundreds of kms all over the country during the move with no medical insurance. Of course there are a thousand excuses for why he wasn't able to pay: he transferred the debit order to another account and somehow it didn't active, then he had to settle the outstanding months before the insurer would reactivate the plan, then for some reason the payment didn't go through......just like the maintenance payments.....
Keep careful records. This will all be super helpful when you ask his employer to garnish his wages.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Anyone else experienced such a case of infidelity-induced selective incapacity?!

Fun and games through the five years of divorce? I remember it well. My investment banker XWH was incapable of handling the simplest transaction. Oh except those that involved transferring marital assets overseas of course.

Cancelled our medical insurance (illegally) the day that No1 daughter was getting a major operation on her knee. Fortunately the operation itself was pre cleared but it messed up the rehab something horrible.

I was stopped by the police for driving an uninsured car. That left me carless as I could not insure a car that was not in my name. I'm sure he found that one hilarious.

This too will pass.


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Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Just phoned my health insurer and discovered that WH stopped paying our account at the end of April. So the kids and I have been driving hundreds of kms all over the country during the move with no medical insurance. Of course there are a thousand excuses for why he wasn't able to pay: he transferred the debit order to another account and somehow it didn't active, then he had to settle the outstanding months before the insurer would reactivate the plan, then for some reason the payment didn't go through......just like the maintenance payments.....
Keep careful records. This will all be super helpful when you ask his employer to garnish his wages.

Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Anyone else experienced such a case of infidelity-induced selective incapacity?!

Fun and games through the five years of divorce? I remember it well. My investment banker XWH was incapable of handling the simplest transaction. Oh except those that involved transferring marital assets overseas of course.

Cancelled our medical insurance (illegally) the day that No1 daughter was getting a major operation on her knee. Fortunately the operation itself was pre cleared but it messed up the rehab something horrible.

I was stopped by the police for driving an uninsured car. That left me carless as I could not insure a car that was not in my name. I'm sure he found that one hilarious.

This too will pass.

Thanks Living Well. I always appreciate hearing from your experience since your ex and mine seem like they are cut from the same cloth. I'm so sorry for you and your children!

I do chuckle to myself a little bit when these things happen, though, because WH really does not have a grasp on the whole documentation/evidence thing and I don't think he realises that he is gifting me concrete examples to use in court. Thanks to his and OW's legal actions over the past 6 months (coupled with my work experience) I have become quite comfortable with lawyers, documents, court orders and processes, so I am more than happy to put these things in front of a magistrate and eliminate all (or most of) WH's manipulation of others.

One thing I am struggling with at the moment is WH's insistence in his daily skype calls to the kids that he misses them and loves them so much. It really makes me angry to hear these empty words. He hasn't seen them in a month. And even though he travelled through this country two weeks ago, managing to find time to go out drinking before flying out the next day, it didn't even occur to him to drive 20 mins from the airport to see his children. He left OC at home with a nanny for 8 days while he went on a work trip to Madagascar, but is now claiming he can't leave OC for a single night in order to visit his other three children. It really shows where his priorities are.

As you can probably see, I am still not managing to Plan B at all. We have pretty much daily contact because of him not sending money, not paying bills, and phoning every single day on Skype with OC. The urgent maintenance order papers will be filed next week, along with a new protection order application for this country, and OC should be back by mid-August. Once all those things are complete, I should be able to cut out communication altogether.





BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
We have pretty much daily contact because of him not sending money, not paying bills, and phoning every single day on Skype with OC. The urgent maintenance order papers will be filed next week, along with a new protection order application for this country, and OC should be back by mid-August. Once all those things are complete, I should be able to cut out communication altogether.
Not sending money is his way to get his dose of daily contact, he gets a reward for not paying. There is no reason for him to pay, because this gets him what he wants: your precious time and control over you. By not sending money, he buys your attention.
Don't talk with him about it every day, don't reward him for this, be boring. If it needs to be adressed, ask a professional (your lawyer) to contact him.

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Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
We have pretty much daily contact because of him not sending money, not paying bills, and phoning every single day on Skype with OC. The urgent maintenance order papers will be filed next week, along with a new protection order application for this country, and OC should be back by mid-August. Once all those things are complete, I should be able to cut out communication altogether.
Not sending money is his way to get his dose of daily contact, he gets a reward for not paying. There is no reason for him to pay, because this gets him what he wants: your precious time and control over you. By not sending money, he buys your attention.
Don't talk with him about it every day, don't reward him for this, be boring. If it needs to be adressed, ask a professional (your lawyer) to contact him.

Thanks Goody2Shoes. I know this is the right advice. But I am struggling to implement it. For example, today, now that I have found out we do not have medical insurance, I am desperate to resolve the situation. It is an awful risk for myself and the children. My husband has forwarded me the last communication he had with the insurer from July 3rd. He was supposed to pay the outstanding monies in order for them to reactivate the insurance coverage. Now he is telling me that I must pay it and he will reimburse me. However, because I have just moved our entire family to another country, and forked out thousands of dollars for house deposit, furniture, handymen to fix stuff, etc, and paid for repairs on two cars, I now have zero cash. I would have to arrange an overdraft to pay the money. I can do that - but only if I am SURE he would reimburse me. And since he has totally failed to send the right money all the other times he has said he would, I do not trust him.

I have told him that he should make the transfer to me immediately and then send me the proof of payment, so that I can pay the insurer with full confidence that he has already sent me money to cover it. But he hasn't done it. So now I am in this limbo of not being able to act because I can't take the risk of paying with him not reimbursing me. It is a lot of money to cover three month's medical insurance for a family of six on top of an international move and the car issues.

I'm still in the process of organising the sale of our house, so I just don't have the cash. Should I just accept to live without health insurance until he sorts it out himself? Or should I take the financial risk, knowing that he is very unreliable about sending money and that it could take months to get the money back through lawyers?? And should I really not send him messages reminding him how urgent it is that our children have medical insurance?!

Last edited by chalkncheese; 07/21/17 03:07 AM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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PS. I have tried to transfer the insurance to my name so that I can control it, but the insurer won't do that until the contract renewal at the end of the year.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
For example, today, now that I have found out we do not have medical insurance, I am desperate to resolve the situation.
During this time, you have proved to be a very strong, intelligent and capable woman who can overcome any problem. I am not in a position (lack of knowledge on legal and financial matters) to tell you how to handle this problem, but I know you are capable of finding a solution.

I once had a friendship gone bad, because of a shared hobby we had a shared bank account (young stupid me). This person tried to control me by not wanting to discuss dividing hobby items and not wanting to dissolve the account. Mails went back and forth, he was getting my (negative) attention.
Until I gave him an ultimatum to tell me what items he wanted, or I would sell everything within a month. He told me he wanted everything, so I let him have everything, except for control and contact.
After dissolving the mutual account, he made a monthly transfer of 1 dollar to my regular account, to give me a monthly reminder. I opened a new bank account, so I didn't see this monthly reminder (after 8 years he finally stopped).

Find a way that gives you minimum despair and maximum control.

Look at your situation from helicopter-view. What is your main goal? These hurdles, although big ones, are distracting you from that goal. He is doing a pretty good job pulling your strings. Don't let him know it affects you this much. If you have to (I believe the judge ordered you) communicate directly, communicate by mail. And don't mail with him if you are emotional. Re-read your communication after a day and take out everything about children and family, just mention cold dates and cold numbers.
If it comes up during Skype with OC, refer to your written message and focus on communication with OC. Communication with OC should be without him being present, if OC needs help with Skype, he can leave the room after the connection is established. There is no need for him to be in the room.

I know it's hard, but if WH doesn't get his reward anymore, eventually, pulling your strings will become boring and it will stop.

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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
One thing I am struggling with at the moment is WH's insistence in his daily skype calls to the kids that he misses them and loves them so much. It really makes me angry to hear these empty words.
Leave the room when they Skype.

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Originally Posted by goody2shoes
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
For example, today, now that I have found out we do not have medical insurance, I am desperate to resolve the situation.
During this time, you have proved to be a very strong, intelligent and capable woman who can overcome any problem. I am not in a position (lack of knowledge on legal and financial matters) to tell you how to handle this problem, but I know you are capable of finding a solution.

I once had a friendship gone bad, because of a shared hobby we had a shared bank account (young stupid me). This person tried to control me by not wanting to discuss dividing hobby items and not wanting to dissolve the account. Mails went back and forth, he was getting my (negative) attention.
Until I gave him an ultimatum to tell me what items he wanted, or I would sell everything within a month. He told me he wanted everything, so I let him have everything, except for control and contact.
After dissolving the mutual account, he made a monthly transfer of 1 dollar to my regular account, to give me a monthly reminder. I opened a new bank account, so I didn't see this monthly reminder (after 8 years he finally stopped).

Find a way that gives you minimum despair and maximum control.

Look at your situation from helicopter-view. What is your main goal? These hurdles, although big ones, are distracting you from that goal. He is doing a pretty good job pulling your strings. Don't let him know it affects you this much. If you have to (I believe the judge ordered you) communicate directly, communicate by mail. And don't mail with him if you are emotional. Re-read your communication after a day and take out everything about children and family, just mention cold dates and cold numbers.
If it comes up during Skype with OC, refer to your written message and focus on communication with OC. Communication with OC should be without him being present, if OC needs help with Skype, he can leave the room after the connection is established. There is no need for him to be in the room.

I know it's hard, but if WH doesn't get his reward anymore, eventually, pulling your strings will become boring and it will stop.

Thank you Goody2Shoes. I think you are right about me rewarding WH - and about finding a solution! I have decided to remortgage the house while I am waiting for the sale. I just phoned the bank and they said they can transfer money today on the same conditions as the mortgage I just paid off in March. So I am just off to the bank now to sign the papers!

With this arrangement, WH cannot hold me to ransom with money stuff, the sale of the house is still proceeding (and will pay off the mortgage in full when it is done), and I give myself some breathing room to wait for the legal processes to work. Phew! Also, since I have tenants in the house anyway, their rent pays the cost of the mortgage every month, so I am not really losing anything by renewing the loan.

Now I will DEFINITELY stop communicating with this crazy person!! (And maybe I will buy myself some new clothes to make myself feel better too ;))


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
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Posts: 599
House remortgaged. Money in my account already!

dance2


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
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WH just sent me a message saying if Hilary Clinton could put up with her husband's behaviour, what makes me think I am so special to divorce him?

banghead


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,786
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
House remortgaged. Money in my account already!


100% perfect solution. Aren't you glad the house was in just your name weightlifter


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
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