Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 27 of 49 1 2 25 26 27 28 29 48 49
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 139
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 139
I read a quote recently that went something like this....

It's better to have people THINK you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove them right.

Somehow it came to mind when I read what your WH just said to you. Unbelievable...well maybe believable as I've read your thread and he is way out there.

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,783
Likes: 1
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,783
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: JanetS
I read a quote recently that went something like this....

It's better to have people THINK you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove them right.

Somehow it came to mind when I read what your WH just said to you. Unbelievable...well maybe believable as I've read your thread and he is way out there.


Don't spend any time thinking about why waywards say what they say or do what they do. Just concentrate on protecting yourself from being able to read/hear/know about it.


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
U
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,197
This tells you 2 things: he does not see you as special enough to expect more, and he has no intention of changing his behavior but rather expects you to put up with it.

This just makes it easier to go into Plan B and have nothing to do with him.

Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,863
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,863
You are much better than Hillary Clinton. And you're not living Hillary's life; you are living your life.


Belle, Domestic Goddess
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
I recieved a reply from Dr Harley. Here is what he says:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley

Hi Chalkncheese,

I've had so much experience with situations like yours, and their ultimate outcome, that I have generally advised wives in your situation to avoid bringing the child of their husband's affair into the marriage (see my article, "What to do with a child of an affair"). The main reason is that very few women can put up with the mother of that child, her husband's lover, being a part of the family. As you put it, your mental health is at stake.

There is, however, one possible way that you can keep the child and your sanity all at the same time: Divorce your husband. While that may seem like a peculiar idea at first, I think that you'll find that once you have your husband completely out of your life with no hope of reconciliation, your relationship with the child's mother could actually be much improved, and the two of you could work together on deciding what would be the best for that child.

The other alternative is to send the child back to his mother, encouraging him to accept her as his own. If you ever would reconcile with your husband, I doubt very seriously that you could continue to raise that child with the other woman's constant interference. And I can't imagine that the other woman would ever want to abandon her own child.

If you have not already done so, you should also read my article, "What to do with a serial cheater." The chances that your husband will never have another affair is very remote, even if he were to come back to you, hat in hand, expressing great remorse. While I have examples of those who have been successful, they represent just a handful of the hundreds of cases I've witnessed where the cheating husband cheats throughout his life, leaving behind many women whose lives have been greatly damaged.

Dr. Harley


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Dr Harley's advice has really made me think. I have already started the divorce process and am meeting my lawyer again on Monday, but I had not considered how it could bring a positive change the dynamics around my relationship with OC's mother. Of course with my husband out of the picture, the pain I associate with her now would cease to be an issue. We would just be two women who love this child and want the best for him. I am now considering reaching out to her directly to perhaps forge an agreement with her about OC's future, indepdent of whatever WH does. That hadn't occured to me at all before but I think she might be quite supportive of the idea of me continuing to raise OC with his brothers (with all the opportunities that I, my education, my money and my nationality can give him) if she were able to see him occassionally.

I am really impressed how Dr Harley makes you think about courses of action that you might never have considered. Thank you to everyone who advised me to contact him.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Originally Posted By: unwritten
This tells you 2 things: he does not see you as special enough to expect more, and he has no intention of changing his behavior but rather expects you to put up with it.

This just makes it easier to go into Plan B and have nothing to do with him.


Yes! This is exactly how I feel. It is shocking to feel his disrespect for me - and marriage - in such a blunt way, but it does help to clarify the mind....

He feels absolutely entitled to behave however he likes and believes that I am destroying the family by saying I will not put up with it. Jaw dropping arrogance. I really really hope some karma comes his way soon.....although I am getting to a place where it doesn't matter to me whether he wakes up or not. I love my new life and there is no way I would go back to being treated like he has treated me for 10 years.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Originally Posted By: living_well
Originally Posted By: chalkncheese
House remortgaged. Money in my account already!


100% perfect solution. Aren't you glad the house was in just your name weightlifter


SOOOO glad!!!!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Originally Posted By: living_well
Originally Posted By: JanetS
I read a quote recently that went something like this....

It's better to have people THINK you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove them right.

Somehow it came to mind when I read what your WH just said to you. Unbelievable...well maybe believable as I've read your thread and he is way out there.


Don't spend any time thinking about why waywards say what they say or do what they do. Just concentrate on protecting yourself from being able to read/hear/know about it.


Definitely!!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Originally Posted By: JanetS
I read a quote recently that went something like this....

It's better to have people THINK you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove them right.

Somehow it came to mind when I read what your WH just said to you. Unbelievable...well maybe believable as I've read your thread and he is way out there.


Hi Janet, he is definitely embarrasing himself without any help!! He also fired off an angry email to the kids' new school full of spelling mistakes and raw emotion (i had to register them because the school year is due to start on August 9 and I can't risk them not having a place while WH argues about school fees) saying he will not be paying any bills. I bet that makes them think he a wonderful father - NOT!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Originally Posted By: Bellevue
You are much better than Hillary Clinton. And you're not living Hillary's life; you are living your life.


Thank you Bellvue. Yes, this whole process has really helped me realise that this is MY life and if I don't look out for myself then no one else is going to!! Looking around to other people's experiences and trying to adjust your own behaviour according to what is "normal" will just make you miserable. I am so grateful for the perspective that MB has given me that I must not accept to be treated like rubbish. And that not accepting it means removing myself from the situation and focusing on myself. It seems so simple but I had not managed to come to that conclusion myself after nearly 40 years of life!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 783
Likes: 4
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 783
Likes: 4
Originally Posted By: chalkncheese
Dr Harley's advice has really made me think. I have already started the divorce process and am meeting my lawyer again on Monday, but I had not considered how it could bring a positive change the dynamics around my relationship with OC's mother. Of course with my husband out of the picture, the pain I associate with her now would cease to be an issue. We would just be two women who love this child and want the best for him. I am now considering reaching out to her directly to perhaps forge an agreement with her about OC's future, indepdent of whatever WH does. That hadn't occured to me at all before but I think she might be quite supportive of the idea of me continuing to raise OC with his brothers (with all the opportunities that I, my education, my money and my nationality can give him) if she were able to see him occassionally.

I am really impressed how Dr Harley makes you think about courses of action that you might never have considered. Thank you to everyone who advised me to contact him.

Don't contact OC mother too soon. Although you are very smart and seem to have a clear head, your emotions are not what they will be in the near future. What seems a good idea now might not be the best long term solution for you. The future of OC will effect your future quite a bit.

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,269
Likes: 2
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 20,269
Likes: 2
Thank you for sharing Dr. Harley's response. It's nice to have his wisdom on things. I would wait to contact her until after the divorce. Your WH could use that to try and manipulate you more or worse. Is there anyway you can get into Plan B before the divorce? Using a secret IM?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Thank you Goody2Shoes and BrainHurts. I also came to the conclusion that I shouldn't rush into contacting her. I really miss OC and it is frustrating and hard. We are discovering all the new fun things there are to do in the city we have moved to, and he should be with us to see these things. Instead, we tell him stories on the phone and he cries because he is missing out. He has started a campaign to get WH and I to talk to each other. He keeps reporting things that he thinks (in his 6 year old brain) are signs of WH's love for me and fills in the gaps with fantasies about us all being together. WH fuels it all by telling him rubbish about me not wanting him. It's really an emotional mess at the moment and I can't wait until OC is back here and we don't have to have WH's manipulation fed to us through these daily exchanges.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Hi everyone, I went to see my lawyer this morning and have sorted out an urgent maintenance order application. Just waiting to hear the court date. And I have another meeting with a different lawyer on Saturday to start the divorce process properly, including discovery. However, I have started to feel quite panicky at the thought of what we will find out through discovery - and I wondered if any of you have advice about dealing with the anxiety?

I thought if I made a list of the worst things I could possibly imagine discovering, and then tried to get myself used to those ideas, that might help with preparing me for whatever comes out (that is how I have always dealt with anxiety in my life).

First on the list was the worry that there are more extra-marital children and I became so terrified that I emailed WH to ask him straight out if he had any other children he has not previously mentioned. He hasn't responded. But I wouldn't expect him to admit anything anyway. If I've learned anything through this process it is that liars will hang on to their lies until their last breath. So now I am stuck with the issue of how I deal with fear of the unknown and with the very real possibility that I will never know the truth of what has happened in my life since I have been married. Do I just try not to think about it at all?

I just panic when i think of how much money he was earning and wonder where it all went. He spent over 10 000 USD every month (only a fraction of that covering household expenses because I was managing all the bills) and was taking out huge sums in cash and I have no idea what it could have been spent on. We lived in a capital city that was like a village. There was only one bar, one supermarket, a couple of restaurants. Even if he bought all the drinks for all the people in the bar every night, he wouldn't have been able to spend more than 250 USD in an evening - and he only went out once a week anyway. He wasn't sending money out of the country, because there are no forex transactions on the bank statements I have seen (going back to the beginning of 2016). Just all these cash withdrawals. The law prohibits foreign citizens from buying land or property, so he can't have bought assets for himself.

Last edited by chalkncheese; 07/24/17 04:49 AM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 783
Likes: 4
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 783
Likes: 4
Next time before contacting WH, wait a day and ask here first.

If you need something to calm your nerves for a short time, ask your doctor. He/she might subscribe something like propranolol, this is often prescribed for people to stay calm during their drivers exam. It is also used in different dosages to lower blood pressure.

Thinking of worst case scenario's won't calm you, it will cause yo more stress than you need (otherwise, you wouldn't have mailed your WH!).

Your best weapon is your strategy. You need to go in plan B as soon as possible. By not being in plan B, you make mistakes (like emailing WH).

Don't think of what might have happened. Focus on what is important: creating a safe environment and future for your family. If you discover facts, you can deal with them at that time. You will probably discover more hurtful things, that is why you NEED plan B.

How can you protect yourself from contact with WH? Are you still present when WH and the children skype, or do you leave the room? Can you use a secret IM (someone to answer the text messages and emails without him knowing it isn't you)?

How often are you tempted to contact WH because you miss the man you thought he was?

Next time you are tempted to pick up the phone/write an email/contact him, distract yourself. Run around the house, play with the kids, take a shower, post here. The urge will go away and you won't do something silly like asking a liar to tell you the truth.

Just don't contact him unless you are forced by court order.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Thanks Goody2Shoes. That is really good advice for putting me back on track. Yes, I need to properly plan B. Skype is a problem because of OC. WH sits there with him on his lap. He does leave after a while so I can talk to OC without him there, but he is hanging around just off camera and makes comments to OC that I can hear. So while OC is there it is really really difficult to not have this kind of contact. But only two more weeks to go.

Since the beginning of July, I have also been contacting him most days to ask where the money he was supposed to send me is, and why he hadnt paid the medical insurance and what I needed to do to sort it out. But I have solved that problem with the remortgage of the house.

I can honestly say I don't miss him at all. I know the man I thought he was is not the real person and I don't seem to have much problem with reminiscing. All my memories of him now are now labelled with a virtual sign saying "WARNING: will cause emotional damage" in my mind, so I don't derive any happiness, love, fondness from any of them. However, I know I could easily love him again if he changed his behaviour and made me feel safe. He's just not showing any sign of doing that.

The other thing that is making me interact with him is his continued pretend efforts to come back and parallel efforts to shame me for destroying our family. He is doing it all the time. He wants to come back without changing. So he continually tells me he loves and misses me, he doesnt know what he needs to do, that he just wants to talk to me, he wants me to move to where he is, he wont cheat ever again, etc. Blah blah blah. Then, alternatively, the kids will never forgive me for what I have done, that he will make sure they know I have thrown him out, that I am destroying their future, that he committed to me for life and it is me that is going back on my promise, etc. It is like a constant assault. He tries different approaches every day. Tries to wiggle around the problem every day. And while I know I should just ignore him, him saying these things makes me want to explain myself and explain why he is wrong. So I do what I shouldnt do and I explain to him over and over again why we are in the situation we are in, and why he is living alone without his family. I tell him words mean nothing and that actions are required. I send and re-send the SAA checklist. He really doesnt get it. Because he doesnt want to and he doesnt want to change. But he cant comprehend the possibility that there is a situation he cant manipulate his way out of with words, so he keeps on trying because he cant believe I am actually divorcing him.

I wish the divorce papers could be served already. And I wish OC was back. I dont think I can manage plan B while he is still away.

Last edited by chalkncheese; 07/24/17 07:31 AM.

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 783
Likes: 4
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 783
Likes: 4
OC is 6, so he can sit without help and without WH being in the room.

Next time, how can you get WH out of the room after the connection is established?

And he gets it. As long as he plays stupid, you will interact.

If you need to respond (which you don't), prepare 2 or 3 short sentences and stand your ground (refer to the checklist). Don't explain. If you don't respond, it will become boring for him. If a slot machine pays out once in a while, a gambler will pull the lever again and again. Be a broken slot machine. Don't pay.

And please please please plug the gaping holes in your non-existent plan B.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Originally Posted By: goody2shoes
OC is 6, so he can sit without help and without WH being in the room.

Next time, how can you get WH out of the room after the connection is established?

And he gets it. As long as he plays stupid, you will interact.

If you need to respond (which you don't), prepare 2 or 3 short sentences and stand your ground (refer to the checklist). Don't explain. If you don't respond, it will become boring for him. If a slot machine pays out once in a while, a gambler will pull the lever again and again. Be a broken slot machine. Don't pay.

And please please please plug the gaping holes in your non-existent plan B.


You are totally right. I am creating this entire situation frown. I'm sorry for letting you all down. I will stop all communication. It is totally pointless and is keeping me in limbo. I will get my IM to email WH to tell him to call the kids separately on Skype, and let me call OC on his own Skype account with WH out of the way, so that he is not involved in the conversation at all. And I will change my email address again and repeat to myself Suzie Q's advice that there is nothing you can say to wake up a wayward, so there's no point trying. It doesn't even work with the money stuff.

I wish OC was back. I feel like him being with WH has brought WH back into our family without me consenting to it and without him doing anything to change. I am sure he feels like that too and that's why he is emailing me.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 599
Today I want to email WH to ask if he has reactivated our medical insurance yet. I paid the outstanding amount to the insurer on Saturday and sent him proof of payment, but I can't activate it myself because I am not the main member. So I am following Goody2Shoes advice and posting here before doing it. What should I do rather than emailing him?

I also want him to go to the embassy to find out about OC's visa and to ask whether we need to change the category of application from a relative permit to a study visa, or if that can be done once he is back in the country. This is information that can only be obtained from the embassy by WH.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
Page 27 of 49 1 2 25 26 27 28 29 48 49

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
2 members (2 invisible), 42 guests, and 51 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mwid, Shepherd, alg, Pelican89, SRL
71,672 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,525
Posts2,322,541
Members71,672
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5