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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
His actions definitely don't show any kind of remorse and Dr. Harley says WHs should show remorse as "hat in hand" or they aren't really remorseful at all. I think your WH falls in this category of not being sorry at all and that you'll need to stay on this path.

I agree with unwritten that you are doing great with all the class that you show.

Also, I worry about all the holes in your Plan B when others try and talk to you about your WH. What can you do to tighten this up?

Thanks Brain Hurts. I really understand Dr Harley's point about serial cheaters having to reach "rock bottom" before they can change. My WH is definitely far from rock bottom, and I don't know if he will get there.

Yes, it is true my Plan B seems to have lots of holes. I think there are a few reasons: 1) we live in a really small country with about 200 international people, so I can't really go anywhere without someone trying to update me on what he has been doing; 2) he has been doing such an active campaign of telling mutual friends that he wants to come home that they feel they are "helping" our marriage by trying to talk us both into sitting down together; and 3) all this police and court stuff has been quite dramatic and, since we are in the peculiar situation where he is the boss of the person who is threatening me, the to and fro of information about these incidents and consequences has been impossible to avoid.

He is leaving the country to start his new job in another much larger country at the end of this month, so things will be a lot easier from then onwards. And I think it has also now become clear to our friends and relatives that when WH says he wants to come home, he doesn't really mean it since he is clearly not prepared to put in the tiniest bit of effort to change anything (and, on the contrary, he expects me to run around apologising and begging him to come back....).


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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OW's lawsuit seems to have provided me with an ideal opportunity to extend my exposure at their employer (which didn't seem to do much before apart from creating gossip - WH was too good at explaining himself). Since I am an accompanying spouse of an expatriate employee, the employer has a legal and moral duty of care towards me and our children, since we are only in the country because of his work and have no right to stay here otherwise, and we are being harassed by a member of their staff (OW). Since my WH is the boss of the country office, and has failed to take appropriate action to follow up on my reports of threats and harassment by his team member (OW), even going so far as to deny that she was involved in the incident she was arrested for, I have asked my lawyer to write to the company highlighting this breach of duty of care and asking that the escalating harassment be properly investigated and dealt with. When WH and OW suddenly find themselves having to face a disciplinary hearing because of their treatment of me, I think it might put a stop to the harassment by lawsuit - and may have the added benefit of shaking them both up a bit.

The best form of defence is attack!



BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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You are doing a great job.

Your WW is following the text book script by the way. I hope you have some savings because the next chapter is called 'How to get back control by cutting off support'.


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
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Originally Posted by living_well
You are doing a great job.

Your WH is following the text book script by the way. I hope you have some savings because the next chapter is called 'How to get back control by cutting off support'.

Thanks Living Well - it is so reassuring to know he is textbook. It really gives me the strength to work through it all. I have already preempted the cutting off support thing by getting a social worker to draft us a parenting contract and financial support agreement, which should be ready to sign by the end of this week. He might not sign of course, but that will just provide more evidence of neglect to submit to his employer and present in the court case laugh. I have all of our joint savings in my bank account and all of our joint assets are in my name (if I was the evil person he is telling everyone I am, why would he have trusted me to handle ALL our finances for so many years?!), so all good on that front. I also earn a good salary so will be able to support the family with or without his income - although I really hate the idea that he will be free to have fun with his salary while I am stuck with four kids and a full time job.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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He really has zero power in this situation AT ALL. But somehow still seems to act like he is one with the control?! I think my being so nice to him all these years (because that is what you do when you love someone) has made him way too big headed and he has forgotten what kind of woman he married. I am not trapped here. I chose to stay married to him. I chose to forgive him for his past behaviour. And I chose to build a future with him. I was silly enough to think that what we had been through in the past would help us avoid the same problems in the future. But thanks to MB i now understand the opposite is true. We are still suffering now because I did not insist on EPs, I just assumed that the terrible experience of the OC would scare him into never cheating again. I really wish someone had pointed me in the direction of this site 7 years ago!!! But at least I am here now.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Originally Posted by living_well
You are doing a great job.

Your WH is following the text book script by the way. I hope you have some savings because the next chapter is called 'How to get back control by cutting off support'.

Thanks Living Well - it is so reassuring to know he is textbook. It really gives me the strength to work through it all. I have already preempted the cutting off support thing by getting a social worker to draft us a parenting contract and financial support agreement, which should be ready to sign by the end of this week. He might not sign of course, but that will just provide more evidence of neglect to submit to his employer and present in the court case laugh. I have all of our joint savings in my bank account and all of our joint assets are in my name (if I was the evil person he is telling everyone I am, why would he have trusted me to handle ALL our finances for so many years?!), so all good on that front. I also earn a good salary so will be able to support the family with or without his income - although I really hate the idea that he will be free to have fun with his salary while I am stuck with four kids and a full time job.

PS. And the rental income from our property we rent out also comes straight to me smile


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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awesome


3 adult children
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Now remarried, thank you MB
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My WH is really stepping up the pressure on mutual friends to convince me to allow him back in the house - without doing anything from the SAA checklist or agreeing to EPs. I spent 3 hours last night fending off messages from one of his school friends who says that because WH has deleted his facebook account (2 months after I asked him to) and changed his phone number that he is a changed man. He (the friend) says WH is "tired of separation". He has an amazing ability to totally ignore the fact that I am currently facing a court case brought by HIS GIRLFRIEND and that just four days ago he phoned my lawyer to shout at her about how the whole thing is my fault and that he wouldn't "allow" me to use any family money to defend myself against the charges.

Is there any example of a man who is so selfish, arrogant and entitled ever waking up and realising the pain he has caused his wife? I just can't imagine it happening. It would require an entire personality transplant.

Also, can someone for whom lies and misdirection are a way of life ever learn to be honest? How would he go about learning that if he has no experience of telling the truth about anything ever?




BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Is there any example of a man who is so selfish, arrogant and entitled ever waking up and realising the pain he has caused his wife? I just can't imagine it happening. It would require an entire personality transplant.

Also, can someone for whom lies and misdirection are a way of life ever learn to be honest? How would he go about learning that if he has no experience of telling the truth about anything ever?

My WXH did in fact wake up and realise the pain he had caused me. It happened when I confronted him after discovery. It lasted about a week

Then he steadily moved himself back into his false belief safe zone where everything was my fault and that I had 'abandoned the family' (his words to the court).

I believe that he could not live with the feeling of guilt. His self worth depended on his needing to believe he had done nothing wrong.


3 adult children
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Now remarried, thank you MB
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Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by chalkncheese
Is there any example of a man who is so selfish, arrogant and entitled ever waking up and realising the pain he has caused his wife? I just can't imagine it happening. It would require an entire personality transplant.

Also, can someone for whom lies and misdirection are a way of life ever learn to be honest? How would he go about learning that if he has no experience of telling the truth about anything ever?

My WXH did in fact wake up and realise the pain he had caused me. It happened when I confronted him after discovery. It lasted about a week

Then he steadily moved himself back into his false belief safe zone where everything was my fault and that I had 'abandoned the family' (his words to the court).

I believe that he could not live with the feeling of guilt. His self worth depended on his needing to believe he had done nothing wrong.

Thanks Living Well. That does sound similar to how I believe my husband reacts too. I know people have said on my thread in the past that there is no point trying to analyse what WSs may or may not be thinking, but i find it so useful on this journey where I am learning so much about how human beings (myself included) behave to hear others' observations and experiences. It is as if I am just learning to make sense of life after 38 years in the dark. Thank you for sharing.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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So what are you going to differently when someone tries to talk with you for 3 hours about your WH? How can you fix these holes in your Plan B?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
I spent 3 hours last night fending off messages from one of his school friends who says that because WH has deleted his facebook account (2 months after I asked him to) and changed his phone number that he is a changed man. He (the friend) says WH is "tired of separation".

Why on earth would you engage in a 3 hour conversation with someone about WH's fog babble???

Really, you yourself are responsible for your own boundaries. If a 'friend' tries to engage you in conversation about WH, ANY conversation about WH, you politely say "I'm sorry, I do not wish to discuss WH as it is too painful for me. If you insist on discussing him, I will have to end this conversation." And follow through. End the conversation. Walk away, hang up the phone, stop texting back, block that 'friend' from your phone if you need to.

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Hi Brain Hurts and Unwritten, thank you - I guess you are totally right. I didn't think of it like that. I suppose I just wanted to respect the fact that this guy is trying to help us. It is kind of him to give his time and energy to trying to help us solve our problems and bring us back together, so I wanted to show him courtesy and respect by explaining why I don't agree with his perspective that closing a facebook account only demonstrates change, emphasising again that fidelity means actually not cheating (not just saying you are not going to cheat and hiding it), that communication and trust is impossible with a pathological liar and serial cheater, and reinforcing the message I wrote in my Plan B letter (that when WH can provide evidence that the affair is over and that it is impossible for him and OW to contact each other, then we can talk about how to recover our marriage including extra extra EPs).

The conversation went like this:
FRIEND: WH has really changed. He wants to come home. There is no OW. He is alone.
ME: Great. If there is no OW, it should be easy to provide evidence, as I have asked him for many times.
FRIEND: How can he show you he has changed if you won't talk to him? Communication is the essential first step of everything.
ME: Communication is pointless with a pathological liar because his words mean nothing. I am not looking for behaviour changes, I am waiting for actual hard evidence that the affair is over.
FRIEND: What evidence can he show you?
ME: As i have said a thousand times, he needs to close all social media accounts, change all phone numbers (and not give the new ones to OW), change all email addresses including work, get rid of his smart phones, close his bank accounts and open a new single joint account, give me his bank statements and phone records so that I can see how much money and time he has spent on OW, make a plan for never being apart from me overnight, etc. This is not a check-box exercise. The idea is to actually make it impossible for him to have an affair.
FRIEND: But you can't treat him like a child. No man would accept that.
ME: That's fine if he doesn't accept that. That is his choice. I am telling you the only way I could conceive of being in this marriage is if it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to cheat.
FRIEND: But he says he has changed. I really believe he is not with that woman. How will you know that if you don't talk to him?

ETC ETC ETC. Round and round and round.

But I guess I have already said all this stuff so I don't need to repeat it again. I will tell him to stop messaging me.

It's funny that even though I love my plan and feel that I am going in the right direction, it is so easy to get pulled away and start wandering off the path. I really appreciate that you guys help keep me focused on put me back on track. Thank you!


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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That's a very giving thing to do but I can't imagine that in your present emotional state it feels good to give three hours of your time to try to change someone's perspective. It's just going to make you more miserable and is not likely to affect him. Don't sacrifice your Plan B in an attempt to try to save someone from an inferior perspective. Plan B doesn't work if you follow it, and three hours of triggers and reminders about the pain your husband is causing you are definitely not following Plan B!


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Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by chalkncheese
It's funny that even though I love my plan and feel that I am going in the right direction, it is so easy to get pulled away and start wandering off the path. I really appreciate that you guys help keep me focused on put me back on track. Thank you!

What is notable to me is how easy it is for "friends" to be so cavalier about your life when it is not their ox getting gored!! Hang in there, chalk!! You are doing great. smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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So what are you going to do to close the holes?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Time to change your phone number.

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Thank you Markos, Melody, BrainHurts and apples, you are all right. I have been letting way too much stuff get through to me. I think my husband has been stepping up the pressure because he is leaving the country in 9 days. After that point, he will be very far away from us and it will be a huge relief.

He got yet ANOTHER lawyer to phone me yesterday (I feel like i now know all the lawyers in the country) - not on my own phone, on my nanny's number - to ask me to come and sit in a room with him to sort out our problems. I again explained clearly that there is no problem to "sort out". My husband is having an affair and I have said very clearly I will not see or speak to him until he can prove the affair is over and that he has put in place precautions to ensure that it is impossible for he and OW to contact each other.

I then forwarded her (the lawyer) the Plan B letter and two additional emails I had sent through our IM with the SAA checklist and a draft list of EPs (sent when he was telling everyone he didn't know what I meant when I said "impossible" for contact to happen).

He wants other people to tell me I am wrong. That I can't keep him outside the house. That it is unreasonable for a wife to demand bank statements and phone records from her husband. It is really fortunate I am a stubborn person (and that MB makes so much logical sense) because I have been under such sustained pressure change my stance that I have had to really interrogate the approach. But it just serves to strengthen my resolve.

Once this legal stuff is over and my husband is gone I will change my phone number again.

Last edited by chalkncheese; 04/21/17 01:12 AM. Reason: typo

BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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WH just brought police to the house! To tell me I am not allowed to not let him in because he is my husband.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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I think he paid them. I am now going with my lawyer to get a restraining order since he threatened me in front of the police - and actually had them convey the message to me that he will be forced to take the law into his own hands if I continue to refuse him entry to the house (i am not refusing him entry, I am just asking that he pick the kids up at the time he says he will, not 3 hours later....). This is the most bizarre turn of events. WH and OW keep on providing me more and more opportunities to take action against them.


BW (me) 40
WH, serial cheater, 41
Four children:
DS1 8
DS2 7 (from one of WH's previous affairs, lives with me)
DS3 6
DD 2

D-day Jan 4 2017
Plan B (first attempt) Feb 21 2017
Plan D Aug 28 2017
Plan B (properly) Aug 31 2017

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs - and blaming it on you....or being lied about don't deal in lies..." IF, by Rudyard Kipling https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/46473
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